The Helper In The Dream

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The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Sat May 04, 2019 4:00 pm

This is a recurring dream experience that I've had over the years. More accurately, it is an element in the dream, not the entire dream itself. I have heard and read accounts of people who also had this element in their dreams. In some cases it's been regarded as an out of body experience (OBE) more than a 'dream'. I'm not going to debate here whether it's either or, I'm just focusing on the experience/element.

I begin by relating one of the dreams that had this particular element:

The dream began by finding myself standing in an open field, there was some foliage here and there and in the distance, around half-mile to a mile was a hill. I was facing in the direction of the hill. I was wearing a black shirt and black pants. In front of me and to the left was a small pedestal and my left hand was resting on it.

Beyond the hill I could see the top of a large dome and part of the building it was on. It looked similar to the large dome of the palace on the planet Naboo in one the Star Wars movies. Here is an image of the dome in the movie, just picture the dome and building it's on by itself, no other domes or structures.

The weather was that of a warm, summer day, I didn't feel any breezes. I just stood there and enjoyed the view of the land, the dome and sky. It was a very calm and pleasant feeling.

After a few moments I noticed to the left of me (around 50ft or so) two things: a row of ramshackle shacks and an old, black woman walking along in front of them. She seemed around 90 years old, very thin, bony, and with white hair. She was wearing a simple off-white dress.

She didn't notice me until she was nearer. Then when she saw me she started shouting and flailing her arms. She didn't get close to me, she stayed near the shacks. In short, she seemed not to like the fact that I was there, she was really upset. Her physical and verbal rant was nonstop. She was speaking a language I did not understand nor could I refer it by sound to any language I knew about.

Then I saw a young, black man walking toward us. He was tall and looked physically fit. He noticed what was going on and then bypassed her and walked toward me. He got about 5 feet or so feet from me and looked at me curiously. I'm 6'2" so I figured his height to be around 6'6".

I said to him something to the effect that I was there simply enjoying this beautiful day and looking at the view and then something about not wanting to bother anyone, in reference of course to the older woman's reaction.

He looked at me for a moment and then slowly showed a slight smile. he then turned and walked over to the woman. She was still ranting and then suddenly he said some words to her; again, like with the woman, I did not understand the language he was using. He was very firm in whatever he had said, it seemed along the lines of, Enough! Stop your screaming, and then something that made her walk away from us. She stopped her rant and just walked away quietly.

He then came back to me and smiled knowingly, the expression on his face was that of someone who realized what was going on, not about the woman, etc., but about the situation itself. He then put his arm out as to motion to me to go with him. I turned and began to walk with him. At that moment the dream ended. By the way, through all of this until I turned and followed him, my left hand was resting on the small pedestal I mentioned earlier.

As with any dream there are things that can be analyzed, symbolisms, and so on. With the dream I just related it's open to those interpretations too but the most noticeable and remembered feature in these types of dreams for me was that element where someone in the dream, in this case the young man, seemed to act out of context in regard to the dream, or more to the point, to my presence in the dream.

For example, the reader may be familiar with Robert Monroe. I think it was him or another author, can't remember which, who related an out of body experience he had. He found himself in a place similar to my dream, a nice country-like setting, trees, etc. As he was standing under a tree there enjoying the view he noticed a young girl riding a bicycle toward him. As she got nearer she got off the bike and walked toward him and bringing the bike along holding the handlebars. She got to a certain point, about 20 feet or so from him and then she said, "You're a traveler, aren't you?" Monroe, having had many previous experiences in OBEs said to her that yes, he was. She smiled and replied, "I thought so". Then she got back on the bike, said goodbye to Monroe and then rode away.

For me, and no doubt for others who have had these types of dreams, the interesting aspect apart from any other information from the dream is that someone in the dream recognized me as someone who was having a dream or an OBE. As example, imagine yourself as that young man. You hear a commotion, someone shouting. You go over to see what's going on. You see the old woman and then look to the left and see someone standing there whom you have never seen before. You walk over to them. As you're standing there trying to figure out who this person is and hearing them talk in a strange language you notice a particular characteristic about them. You figured it out, you smile. You turn to the old woman, you tell her to stop screaming, that there's nothing to worry about, to go back home. You turn back to the 'stranger' and help him move along.

In all the dreams that I've had with this element, there has been a 'helper' of some sort. The dreams of course are different re the people, scenes, and so on. The helpers are different, sometimes a man, sometimes a woman. Sometimes the situation seemed a tense one, sometimes a pleasant one. But in all of them what remained most vivid in my recollection of the dream afterward was that aspect of someone who 'recognized' what I was doing in that scenario.

I've often wondered if in those dreams or OBEs I was traveling in places, dimensions, etc., where the people there are aware of those 'travelers'. To them, I wasn't a mere 'ghost' or some such, I was simply a being who was traveling through their realm. And because they knew who and what I was, they helped me along the journey.

So, have you had a dream(s) like that? Did it seem like someone in the dream helped you out not just in the context of a dream situation but more in the sense that they were as aforementioned, out of sync, so to speak, with the narrative of the dream, that as example, it was like you were watching a movie in a theater and then an usher goes up to you and tells you something whereby you had to leave the theater/movie. That's just a quick example that came to mind but I think by now and with what I have related you get the idea. :-)
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 04, 2019 8:17 pm

Del Ivers wrote:This is a recurring dream experience that I've had over the years. More accurately, it is an element in the dream, not the entire dream itself. I have heard and read accounts of people who also had this element in their dreams. In some cases it's been regarded as an out of body experience (OBE) more than a 'dream'. I'm not going to debate here whether it's either or, I'm just focusing on the experience/element.

I begin by relating one of the dreams that had this particular element:

The dream began by finding myself standing in an open field, there was some foliage here and there and in the distance, around half-mile to a mile was a hill. I was facing in the direction of the hill. I was wearing a black shirt and black pants. In front of me and to the left was a small pedestal and my left hand was resting on it.

Beyond the hill I could see the top of a large dome and part of the building it was on. It looked similar to the large dome of the palace on the planet Naboo in one the Star Wars movies. Here is an image of the dome in the movie, just picture the dome and building it's on by itself, no other domes or structures.

The weather was that of a warm, summer day, I didn't feel any breezes. I just stood there and enjoyed the view of the land, the dome and sky. It was a very calm and pleasant feeling.

After a few moments I noticed to the left of me (around 50ft or so) two things: a row of ramshackle shacks and an old, black woman walking along in front of them. She seemed around 90 years old, very thin, bony, and with white hair. She was wearing a simple off-white dress.

She didn't notice me until she was nearer. Then when she saw me she started shouting and flailing her arms. She didn't get close to me, she stayed near the shacks. In short, she seemed not to like the fact that I was there, she was really upset. Her physical and verbal rant was nonstop. She was speaking a language I did not understand nor could I refer it by sound to any language I knew about.

Then I saw a young, black man walking toward us. He was tall and looked physically fit. He noticed what was going on and then bypassed her and walked toward me. He got about 5 feet or so feet from me and looked at me curiously. I'm 6'2" so I figured his height to be around 6'6".

I said to him something to the effect that I was there simply enjoying this beautiful day and looking at the view and then something about not wanting to bother anyone, in reference of course to the older woman's reaction.

He looked at me for a moment and then slowly showed a slight smile. he then turned and walked over to the woman. She was still ranting and then suddenly he said some words to her; again, like with the woman, I did not understand the language he was using. He was very firm in whatever he had said, it seemed along the lines of, Enough! Stop your screaming, and then something that made her walk away from us. She stopped her rant and just walked away quietly.

He then came back to me and smiled knowingly, the expression on his face was that of someone who realized what was going on, not about the woman, etc., but about the situation itself. He then put his arm out as to motion to me to go with him. I turned and began to walk with him. At that moment the dream ended. By the way, through all of this until I turned and followed him, my left hand was resting on the small pedestal I mentioned earlier.

As with any dream there are things that can be analyzed, symbolisms, and so on. With the dream I just related it's open to those interpretations too but the most noticeable and remembered feature in these types of dreams for me was that element where someone in the dream, in this case the young man, seemed to act out of context in regard to the dream, or more to the point, to my presence in the dream.

For example, the reader may be familiar with Robert Monroe. I think it was him or another author, can't remember which, who related an out of body experience he had. He found himself in a place similar to my dream, a nice country-like setting, trees, etc. As he was standing under a tree there enjoying the view he noticed a young girl riding a bicycle toward him. As she got nearer she got off the bike and walked toward him and bringing the bike along holding the handlebars. She got to a certain point, about 20 feet or so from him and then she said, "You're a traveler, aren't you?" Monroe, having had many previous experiences in OBEs said to her that yes, he was. She smiled and replied, "I thought so". Then she got back on the bike, said goodbye to Monroe and then rode away.

For me, and no doubt for others who have had these types of dreams, the interesting aspect apart from any other information from the dream is that someone in the dream recognized me as someone who was having a dream or an OBE. As example, imagine yourself as that young man. You hear a commotion, someone shouting. You go over to see what's going on. You see the old woman and then look to the left and see someone standing there whom you have never seen before. You walk over to them. As you're standing there trying to figure out who this person is and hearing them talk in a strange language you notice a particular characteristic about them. You figured it out, you smile. You turn to the old woman, you tell her to stop screaming, that there's nothing to worry about, to go back home. You turn back to the 'stranger' and help him move along.

In all the dreams that I've had with this element, there has been a 'helper' of some sort. The dreams of course are different re the people, scenes, and so on. The helpers are different, sometimes a man, sometimes a woman. Sometimes the situation seemed a tense one, sometimes a pleasant one. But in all of them what remained most vivid in my recollection of the dream afterward was that aspect of someone who 'recognized' what I was doing in that scenario.

I've often wondered if in those dreams or OBEs I was traveling in places, dimensions, etc., where the people there are aware of those 'travelers'. To them, I wasn't a mere 'ghost' or some such, I was simply a being who was traveling through their realm. And because they knew who and what I was, they helped me along the journey.

So, have you had a dream(s) like that? Did it seem like someone in the dream helped you out not just in the context of a dream situation but more in the sense that they were as aforementioned, out of sync, so to speak, with the narrative of the dream, that as example, it was like you were watching a movie in a theater and then an usher goes up to you and tells you something whereby you had to leave the theater/movie. That's just a quick example that came to mind but I think by now and with what I have related you get the idea. :-)




I did, in a prior life, I was called one, and I was taken to be a character out of star wars, so I started to dislike myself , so I changed.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Sat May 04, 2019 9:41 pm

Meno_ wrote:I did, in a prior life, I was called one, and I was taken to be a character out of star wars, so I started to dislike myself , so I changed.

You believe you were regarded as a 'helper' in a prior life? What about that made you dislike yourself?
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 04, 2019 10:53 pm

Actually my automatic writer missplelled it , my name was obe and I guess I was a helper, but the co sensus in related dreams was different. I was like a ghostly non attached figure, as I passed them, they did not notice me or pretended not to.
So I had to change.

Sometimes in the morning upon waking bleary eyed, I do not recognize myself, so I have proof that I changed and still, changing.

But I guess it's all good.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Sun May 05, 2019 3:22 pm

Meno_ wrote:I was like a ghostly non attached figure, as I passed them, they did not notice me or pretended not to.

I've thought of the 'ghost' aspect with these types of dreams and others. But if that is the case, then what I've noticed is that in the helper dreams/OBEs it seemed I was perceived in a more 'substantial' way compared to how we in this reality regard a ghost as an apparition, shadow, spectral, etc.

Now, it could be that it's a different degree of being a 'ghost'. In the dream I related, the young man looked at me for a moment or so until I could tell by his expression and slight smile that he had 'figured it out', that he understood 'what' I was. That kind of exchange is not something you normally hear when people recount ghost stories, they're usually just fleeting sightings. Maybe the old woman perceived me differently considering her reaction but there again her reaction could also apply to the presence of a stranger, ghostly or not.

What all of that tells me is, again, that in the 'helper' dreams I seemed to have more of an 'embodiment', something that could be addressed more directly than a fleeting, ghostly encounter. Another possibility is that I was occupying someone else's body, that's also been considered in dream/OBE literature and has its own implications on different levels.

In short, it seems that in some of those realities 'visited' there are individuals there who recognize those 'travelers' just as easily as one would regard another person. It's like if someone from another country came up to you on the street and they asked you for directions and you knew immediately that English was not their primary language. They would be 'different', yet you would still help them because it's another human being. Maybe in some other realities awareness and helping is expanded to many kinds of beings.

Now, if some tourist, humanoid-like being with four eyes and wearing a fanny pack suddenly came up to me on the street and in the most basic English asked me for directions to 'The Strip' where the casinos are, yeah, I'd be freaking out a little. :)
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sun May 05, 2019 7:35 pm

There is a vast difference between the two types. The four eyed tourist and the one who pegged as simply from another country.

However the ghost resides in between these two types, plus if he is seasoned then he knows allusion from illusion. He becomes variable, and as soon as. a focus tries to come close to determening his identity he morphes into the highly variable come uncertain roles that evade identification .

The other, trying to identify, compresses the two architypical covers and again expands them , and wholla! A ghost is born.

The next stage is anomalous character of shadow and ghost, here the hunted may become the hunter.

This also may progress into a less idiomatic creature of helped/helper.

These are merely appaririona in a nighttime tableau, &/or a real time horror scene. The true haunt can or even MUST fulfill both requirements or else!
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Sun May 05, 2019 9:22 pm

Meno

I need to clarify a few things for myself re your reply before proceeding further.

Are you shifting into the 'ghost' premise as explanation for the 'helper' premise as I've described it, or as an explanation for the ghost premise by itself?

The reason I ask is because you posit the ghost as a third party: "However the ghost resides in between these two types.." That makes for an elaboration of the scenario that I related. For example, was the young man and the old woman real and I the ghost or vice versa? Were we all ghosts thus making the scenario I described a kind of ghostly rendezvous?

I think you can see why I want to define which premise we're dealing with. The ghost premise seems to explain the 'helper' premise as more 'nighttime tableau' than 'alternate reality'. Granted, they may be one and the same but then the recurrence of the particular element as I described in the OP would have to be explained as a non-variable aspect, i.e, the many dreams/OBEs had different situations, scenarios, etc., but upon assessment of them the 'helper' aspect was constant and thus of particular focus.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Mon May 06, 2019 4:52 pm

Del Ivers wrote:Meno

I need to clarify a few things for myself re your reply before proceeding further.

Are you shifting into the 'ghost' premise as explanation for the 'helper' premise as I've described it, or as an explanation for the ghost premise by itself?

The reason I ask is because you posit the ghost as a third party: "However the ghost resides in between these two types.." That makes for an elaboration of the scenario that I related. For example, was the young man and the old woman real and I the ghost or vice versa? Were we all ghosts thus making the scenario I described a kind of ghostly rendezvous?

I think you can see why I want to define which premise we're dealing with. The ghost premise seems to explain the 'helper' premise as more 'nighttime tableau' than 'alternate reality'. Granted, they may be one and the same but then the recurrence of the particular element as I described in the OP would have to be explained as a non-variable aspect, i.e, the many dreams/OBEs had different situations, scenarios, etc., but upon assessment of them the 'helper' aspect was constant and thus of particular focus.




Just noted what you call 'm elaboration'. The symbolism is rich, therefore it's expected that different interpretations will come off it. I must defer any comment until a few hours from now, since it will take that long to digest and formulate at least an inceptional comment.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Mon May 06, 2019 5:53 pm

Meno wrote:
Del Ivers wrote:Del Ivers

I need to clarify a few things for myself re your reply before proceeding further.

Are you shifting into the 'ghost' premise as explanation for the 'helper' premise as I've described it, or as an explanation for the ghost premise by itself?

The reason I ask is because you posit the ghost as a third party: "However the ghost resides in between these two types.." That makes for an elaboration of the scenario that I related. For example, was the young man and the old woman real and I the ghost or vice versa? Were we all ghosts thus making the scenario I described a kind of ghostly rendezvous?

I think you can see why I want to define which premise we're dealing with. The ghost premise seems to explain the 'helper' premise as more 'nighttime tableau' than 'alternate reality'. Granted, they may be one and the same but then the recurrence of the particular element as I described in the OP would have to be explained as a non-variable aspect, i.e, the many dreams/OBEs had different situations, scenarios, etc., but upon assessment of them the 'helper' aspect was constant and thus of particular focus.




Just noted what you call 'm elaboration'. The symbolism is rich, therefore it's expected that different interpretations will come off it. I must defer any comment until a few hours from now, since it will take that long to digest and formulate at least an inceptional comment.



Are you shifting into the 'ghost' premise as explanation for the 'helper' premise as I've described it, or as an explanation for the ghost premise by itself?
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Mon May 06, 2019 5:57 pm

Del Ivers_ wrote:
Meno wrote:
Del Ivers wrote:Meno

I need to clarify a few things for myself re your reply before proceeding further.

Are you shifting into the 'ghost' premise as explanation for the 'helper' premise as I've described it, or as an explanation for the ghost premise by itself?

The reason I ask is because you posit the ghost as a third party: "However the ghost resides in between these two types.." That makes for an elaboration of the scenario that I related. For example, was the young man and the old woman real and I the ghost or vice versa? Were we all ghosts thus making the scenario I described a kind of ghostly rendezvous?

I think you can see why I want to define which premise we're dealing with. The ghost premise seems to explain the 'helper' premise as more 'nighttime tableau' than 'alternate reality'. Granted, they may be one and the same but then the recurrence of the particular element as I described in the OP would have to be explained as a non-variable aspect, i.e, the many dreams/OBEs had different situations, scenarios, etc., but upon assessment of them the 'helper' aspect was constant and thus of particular focus.




Just noted what you call 'm elaboration'. The symbolism is rich, therefore it's expected that different interpretations will come off it. I must defer any comment until a few hours from now, since it will take that long to digest and formulate at least an inceptional comment.



Are you shifting into the 'ghost' premise as explanation for the 'helper' premise as I've described it, or as an explanation for the ghost premise by itself?



I think both.Depending where the focus is coming from. Simultainity is impossible, and the 'ghost' can be used a literal or a metaphoric experience . Lack of content, visualization of the fleeting moment can be experienced both: in dreams and in waking
This bybqay of describing the experience , whereas dreamlike content cam be experienced during waking, and the opposite, - 'real' similitude during unconsciousness of dreams.

This type of hybrid is again, variable , as above described, depending on the type of manifested symbolism. as more closed, (with less space to define it, therefore within more general parameters), with less articularization and embellishment.

Whichever with less space, needs a minimum of declinated adjectives, minimal to the point, gleaning off the surface.

That is where the ghostly apparition induces a feeling of being haunted, hunted down, as in the old lady's cryptic presence indicates.

The helper comes along defensively, but his intentions are not early known, so where and for what purpose does he appear? A mechanism perhaps , literal for structure and continuity perhaps, or, maybe for deeper psychological reasons, for which much more space is required, terming it's contradictory logic into play, in presentation, not mere representation , a contradiction not only on terms , in description, in order to configure, wjat really is going on, in the dream, vis. and what it is trying to say.

Whether the theme can actually rise to the level of paradox, and become a model for subsequent and future action, depends on the foreshadowing , the present circumstance, and the thematic expectations, by a well integrated memory.

If such does in fact occur, the. perhaps only a divine oracle would do justice to it. Examples abound in Hamlet, Ibsen's Ghost, and some other notables.
At that point, it can be said of the question of difference, an uncertainty between them, and indeed such confusion does not relegate to Hamlet's madness, for life may indeed be merely a dream.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Tue May 07, 2019 1:20 am

Meno_ wrote:I think both. Depending where the focus is coming from. Simultainity is impossible, and the 'ghost' can be used a literal or a metaphoric experience . Lack of content, visualization of the fleeting moment can be experienced both: in dreams and in waking
This bybqay of describing the experience , whereas dreamlike content cam be experienced during waking, and the opposite, - 'real' similitude during unconsciousness of dreams.

Simultaneity is impossible or possible? You start out saying you think it's both but then you say it's, 'impossible'. Or is that the automatic speller? Also, is 'bybqay', byway?

Meno_ wrote:The helper comes along defensively, but his intentions are not early known, so where and for what purpose does he appear? A mechanism perhaps , literal for structure and continuity perhaps, or, maybe for deeper psychological reasons..

Yes, in the interpretation of dreams much has been written as to the symbolism in them and what it represents. In the case of the dream (or OBE but that puts it in a different category) that I related, the dome in the distance, the pedestal my hand was on, the old woman, her reaction, the young man, etc., all can have a symbolic meaning that refers to something else in my 'awake' life. I've had many dreams when in the aftermath (awake) I thought about the different elements and with some I was able to see how they represented something that referred to my awake state.

If such was the case that this particular dream represented something, it was some time ago when I had it but then as now I do not remember it referring to anything that was going on in my life at the time. Sure, I could make generalizations of some sort, the old woman is age, young man is youth, maybe he is an aspect of me, the ramshackle shacks a condition of some sort, and so on. But the distinguishing feature of that dream above any of the possible symbolisms, was the 'helper' aspect. This has been the case, the 'constant', in these 'helper' dreams. It was so apparent that as you can see I posted this topic not to relate about the dream's symbolic material but instead about something that seemed independent of the dream and that such has recurred in dreams that I've had through the years.

Again I refer to what I noted in the OP about the usher. The movie is the dream, I'm watching it, involved in it. Suddenly the usher appears and tells me something that for whatever reason makes me leave my seat and follow him. At that point the movie is of little, if any, consideration.

Now, there have been dreams where the 'helper' appears in the middle of a dream. For example, some time back I had a dream and in the middle of it I found myself in a large hallway like you see in office buildings. It had lots of doors and I 'knew' that I had to find the one that would lead me out of there. As I'm walking around I see an open doorway and walking up to it I see a girl, she was maybe 10-12 years of age. Along with her in the room was a woman, maybe in her late 20s, early 30s. The girl saw me first, there was no reaction on her face of me being someone dangerous or whatever but she left through a door, I guess to another room. The woman walked over to me. No extreme reaction from her either, she just nodded with an expression of acknowledgment and waiting for whatever I had to say. I told her that I was looking for a door that would lead me outside. She motioned with her hand up the hall. I started walking and she was behind me. We got to a point and then she motioned again to large double doors. I turned and thanked her, she nodded, turned and walked back to the room. I walked through the doors and the dream continued.

In that type of 'helper' instance there was nothing evident that would make me search subconscious symbolism for an explanation. So, that was a mild instance of the 'helper'. But what made think afterward about it and brought it round to be considered a 'helper' incident is that when I first saw the girl and she saw me she didn't freak out or anything as I said but I could tell in just those couple of seconds or so that for whatever reason she knew I was something or someone 'different'. When the woman approached me I could sense the same in her, she was dealing with me, and pleasantly so, but I could tell that there was a mild caution to her facial and body expression. That indicator is what reminded me of the same in other 'helper' dreams.

Is there a symbolism to the 'helper' aspect? I don't know. Maybe a safeguard of some type employed by the subconscious in the dream narrative? Again, I don't know. What I do know, at least from having experienced various 'helper' scenarios, is that it seems to run in a parallel narrative to the narrative of the dream. Such as in the example of the usher in the theater. His narrative runs parallel to the movie/dream I'm watching. But he is not the movie/dream, he is something other. He recognizes the difference between the movie and me the watcher of the movie. And of course, I've come to realize that he recognizes that.

If you haven't already done so, check out some of Robert Monroe's books whom I mentioned in the OP. His story is a fascinating one and those who 'helped' him in his OBE experiences takes the 'helper' concept to a whole other level. The Wikiwand on him gives a lot of background info from others but the books speak for themselves.

So thus far, the feeling I get as I've said before is that 'somewhere' there are beings who recognize me, and probably many others like me, as not being a 'local'. That unlike us, or at least the majority of us, they communicate with the 'travelers'. Do we appear as 'ghosts' to them? Maybe. I don't know. But whichever the case, they seem to have a better handle on such 'tourism' than we do. :)
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 07, 2019 1:40 am

Yes lack of sleep , automatic speller.

But here. I think the redux, the simplification and minimilization between entropy and redundancy must lead to an intermingling clarification. (Of the helper and its role and substance
)

Otherwise the problem of the unconscious, the dream, will coil around it like - looking beneath it, like for an original search for the temptor, the woman in the picture who plucks off the apple.

I always like to look for subterfuge, like Your searching for am exit, and the young girl, may be it. Who is she? Another helper, so the multiplicity and the deacription of helpers are variable.
Who the helper is is not the central matter, of is the role they play.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Artimas » Tue May 07, 2019 3:13 am

Del Ivers wrote:This is a recurring dream experience that I've had over the years. More accurately, it is an element in the dream, not the entire dream itself. I have heard and read accounts of people who also had this element in their dreams. In some cases it's been regarded as an out of body experience (OBE) more than a 'dream'. I'm not going to debate here whether it's either or, I'm just focusing on the experience/element.

I begin by relating one of the dreams that had this particular element:

The dream began by finding myself standing in an open field, there was some foliage here and there and in the distance, around half-mile to a mile was a hill. I was facing in the direction of the hill. I was wearing a black shirt and black pants. In front of me and to the left was a small pedestal and my left hand was resting on it.

Beyond the hill I could see the top of a large dome and part of the building it was on. It looked similar to the large dome of the palace on the planet Naboo in one the Star Wars movies. Here is an image of the dome in the movie, just picture the dome and building it's on by itself, no other domes or structures.

The weather was that of a warm, summer day, I didn't feel any breezes. I just stood there and enjoyed the view of the land, the dome and sky. It was a very calm and pleasant feeling.

After a few moments I noticed to the left of me (around 50ft or so) two things: a row of ramshackle shacks and an old, black woman walking along in front of them. She seemed around 90 years old, very thin, bony, and with white hair. She was wearing a simple off-white dress.

She didn't notice me until she was nearer. Then when she saw me she started shouting and flailing her arms. She didn't get close to me, she stayed near the shacks. In short, she seemed not to like the fact that I was there, she was really upset. Her physical and verbal rant was nonstop. She was speaking a language I did not understand nor could I refer it by sound to any language I knew about.

Then I saw a young, black man walking toward us. He was tall and looked physically fit. He noticed what was going on and then bypassed her and walked toward me. He got about 5 feet or so feet from me and looked at me curiously. I'm 6'2" so I figured his height to be around 6'6".

I said to him something to the effect that I was there simply enjoying this beautiful day and looking at the view and then something about not wanting to bother anyone, in reference of course to the older woman's reaction.

He looked at me for a moment and then slowly showed a slight smile. he then turned and walked over to the woman. She was still ranting and then suddenly he said some words to her; again, like with the woman, I did not understand the language he was using. He was very firm in whatever he had said, it seemed along the lines of, Enough! Stop your screaming, and then something that made her walk away from us. She stopped her rant and just walked away quietly.

He then came back to me and smiled knowingly, the expression on his face was that of someone who realized what was going on, not about the woman, etc., but about the situation itself. He then put his arm out as to motion to me to go with him. I turned and began to walk with him. At that moment the dream ended. By the way, through all of this until I turned and followed him, my left hand was resting on the small pedestal I mentioned earlier.

As with any dream there are things that can be analyzed, symbolisms, and so on. With the dream I just related it's open to those interpretations too but the most noticeable and remembered feature in these types of dreams for me was that element where someone in the dream, in this case the young man, seemed to act out of context in regard to the dream, or more to the point, to my presence in the dream.

For example, the reader may be familiar with Robert Monroe. I think it was him or another author, can't remember which, who related an out of body experience he had. He found himself in a place similar to my dream, a nice country-like setting, trees, etc. As he was standing under a tree there enjoying the view he noticed a young girl riding a bicycle toward him. As she got nearer she got off the bike and walked toward him and bringing the bike along holding the handlebars. She got to a certain point, about 20 feet or so from him and then she said, "You're a traveler, aren't you?" Monroe, having had many previous experiences in OBEs said to her that yes, he was. She smiled and replied, "I thought so". Then she got back on the bike, said goodbye to Monroe and then rode away.

For me, and no doubt for others who have had these types of dreams, the interesting aspect apart from any other information from the dream is that someone in the dream recognized me as someone who was having a dream or an OBE. As example, imagine yourself as that young man. You hear a commotion, someone shouting. You go over to see what's going on. You see the old woman and then look to the left and see someone standing there whom you have never seen before. You walk over to them. As you're standing there trying to figure out who this person is and hearing them talk in a strange language you notice a particular characteristic about them. You figured it out, you smile. You turn to the old woman, you tell her to stop screaming, that there's nothing to worry about, to go back home. You turn back to the 'stranger' and help him move along.

In all the dreams that I've had with this element, there has been a 'helper' of some sort. The dreams of course are different re the people, scenes, and so on. The helpers are different, sometimes a man, sometimes a woman. Sometimes the situation seemed a tense one, sometimes a pleasant one. But in all of them what remained most vivid in my recollection of the dream afterward was that aspect of someone who 'recognized' what I was doing in that scenario.

I've often wondered if in those dreams or OBEs I was traveling in places, dimensions, etc., where the people there are aware of those 'travelers'. To them, I wasn't a mere 'ghost' or some such, I was simply a being who was traveling through their realm. And because they knew who and what I was, they helped me along the journey.

So, have you had a dream(s) like that? Did it seem like someone in the dream helped you out not just in the context of a dream situation but more in the sense that they were as aforementioned, out of sync, so to speak, with the narrative of the dream, that as example, it was like you were watching a movie in a theater and then an usher goes up to you and tells you something whereby you had to leave the theater/movie. That's just a quick example that came to mind but I think by now and with what I have related you get the idea. :-)



Did the dome look similar to something like this? An more details of the scenery, buildings and what not? Did it look like Africa?

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-dome- ... 63205.html

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Tue May 07, 2019 7:52 am

Artimas wrote:Did the dome look similar to something like this? An more details of the scenery, buildings and what not? Did it look like Africa?

No, it was wider and smoother like the image from the movie I linked.

But your mention of Africa is interesting. Apart from the hill which was obscuring part of the dome building, the terrain did have the look of a savanna.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Artimas » Tue May 07, 2019 3:37 pm

Del Ivers wrote:
Artimas wrote:Did the dome look similar to something like this? An more details of the scenery, buildings and what not? Did it look like Africa?

No, it was wider and smoother like the image from the movie I linked.

But your mention of Africa is interesting. Apart from the hill which was obscuring part of the dome building, the terrain did have the look of a savanna.


It could have been a remote viewing or some form of non discretion/differentiation of and between time while dreaming or in a lucid subconscious state. A conscious viewing of some of the imagery that is the subconscious string attached to our conscious awareness. Seems very lucid and I don’t think dreams that lucid are just made up by the mind, the mind needs information that is in a proper sequence before it can do such a thing, that’s how it may show up as imagery, by it being a sequence of information through and creating of imagery. It also didn’t sound as though it was dictated by fear or emotional attachment either.

Similar to how when awake, there is a sequence of information of which is the reason why we view blue as it is and can’t describe it other than providing the specific experience/information.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Tue May 07, 2019 8:22 pm

Artimas wrote: A conscious viewing of some of the imagery that is the subconscious string attached to our conscious awareness.

Yes, that connection is a possibility.

Artimas wrote: Seems very lucid and I don’t think dreams that lucid are just made up by the mind, the mind needs information that is in a proper sequence before it can do such a thing,

Or an OBE. But as I mentioned previously there are differeing opinions on this, some to the point that they regard OBEs happening more from a waking state than a sleeping state. Personally, I would have to disagree on that assessment, I've had experiences in sleep where it was more, shall we say, a passport than a postcard. Very intense, where even after waking the feelings and atmosphere of the experience lingered regardless the scenario had changed.

Now, if as you have noted that it's the subconscious connecting to the conscious, then that brings up questions. One of the many being if the connection is merely for 'psychological entertainment' purposes, i.e., a mind movie, or if it effects a conduit of sorts to actual though remote, sometimes very remote, 'locales'.

Here's an illustration using a previously mentioned experience that can be examined both as possibilities of a conduit and as a mind movie (a 'representational' display).

In the experience with the woman who helped me find the double doors, and which I stated that the dream continued, once I went through the doors there was a very vivid scene before me.

Now, if you've ever passed a theatre on the street you may have seen the doors open, maybe no function going on, airing it out, whatever, and seen the interior of the theatre, the seats, how big the interior is, and so on.

When I went through the double doors I saw those other, opened doors what seemed to be an area for a large group of people but I wasn't on the sidewalk next to the doors, I was more like across the street from them. The 'street' was more like a concourse of some sort, there were people walking back and forth.

Inside the doors there were hundreds of people or even a thousand or more. There was a golden light that suffused the interior and the people. The people were dressed in varying colors of red, green, gold, (there could have neem more colors but those were the prominet ones) and sparkling elements on the clothes and the architectural features.

The people were grouped together according to the colors and they all moved in a kind of dancing procession. The closest I can describe this is like if you've ever seen Shaker dancing. Here is a video of it. Go from the 4 minute mark to around the 5 and half minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcoAkNU24Vw

You see that slight procession and then backward motion? Now instead of just a line of people doing it as shown in the video, imagine groups of people, hundreds, wearing the same color I mentioned doing that in formation. Then imagine that the red-dressed people moved in one direction passing the green-dressed people who were moving in the opposite direction, then the gold dressed people in another direction, and so on. In other words, if you could see all of that from above, from the ceiling of the place, you would see color swirls of the differently dressed people. Remember, the swirls are independent from each other yet side by side. Add to all of that the choral aspects such as you hear in the video but multiply to a thousand voices. I hope all of that gives you an idea of what it looked and sounded like.

I stood there transfixed by this scene. The feelings that were emanating from it were of a JOY that was absolutely irrefutable. At one point I heard myself saying emphatically in the dream, "Now, THAT! is a Christmas celebration!". :D

When did I have that dream? Around a week or so before Easter (Google Christmas-Easter connections). But here's the thing: I haven't gone to church in decades, since I was boy of around 12. And the extent of religion since then has been mostly in discussing it as philosophy, politically, etc. 'Spirituality' would more descriptive of what I've pondered and even at that not in a routine or particular form of it.

A part of me wanted to get nearer, join in with those people in their celebration. But as you may know from your own dreams, sometimes the itinerary, for whatever reason, is not in your control. I smiled at the scene, enjoyed the wonderful feeling from it and walked away. Shortly thereafter the dream stopped.

Now, in what you previously stated, that would be a rich field for examination in the sense of what the 'connections' might be. Did the subconscious/unconscious delight me with a fantastic mind movie since, hey, it's that time of the season? Or was I fortunate enough in some trans-dimensional way to "be" at the actual location of this event? Whichever one, even the most hard-bitten nihilist would have had the biggest, goofiest and most joyful smile on his or her face. The scene and feelings were, IRREFUTABLY AWESOME. :)
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Artimas » Tue May 07, 2019 11:34 pm

Del Ivers wrote:
Artimas wrote: A conscious viewing of some of the imagery that is the subconscious string attached to our conscious awareness.

Yes, that connection is a possibility.

Artimas wrote: Seems very lucid and I don’t think dreams that lucid are just made up by the mind, the mind needs information that is in a proper sequence before it can do such a thing,

Or an OBE. But as I mentioned previously there are differeing opinions on this, some to the point that they regard OBEs happening more from a waking state than a sleeping state. Personally, I would have to disagree on that assessment, I've had experiences in sleep where it was more, shall we say, a passport than a postcard. Very intense, where even after waking the feelings and atmosphere of the experience lingered regardless the scenario had changed.

Now, if as you have noted that it's the subconscious connecting to the conscious, then that brings up questions. One of the many being if the connection is merely for 'psychological entertainment' purposes, i.e., a mind movie, or if it effects a conduit of sorts to actual though remote, sometimes very remote, 'locales'.

Here's an illustration using a previously mentioned experience that can be examined both as possibilities of a conduit and as a mind movie (a 'representational' display).

In the experience with the woman who helped me find the double doors, and which I stated that the dream continued, once I went through the doors there was a very vivid scene before me.

Now, if you've ever passed a theatre on the street you may have seen the doors open, maybe no function going on, airing it out, whatever, and seen the interior of the theatre, the seats, how big the interior is, and so on.

When I went through the double doors I saw those other, opened doors what seemed to be an area for a large group of people but I wasn't on the sidewalk next to the doors, I was more like across the street from them. The 'street' was more like a concourse of some sort, there were people walking back and forth.

Inside the doors there were hundreds of people or even a thousand or more. There was a golden light that suffused the interior and the people. The people were dressed in varying colors of red, green, gold, (there could have neem more colors but those were the prominet ones) and sparkling elements on the clothes and the architectural features.

The people were grouped together according to the colors and they all moved in a kind of dancing procession. The closest I can describe this is like if you've ever seen Shaker dancing. Here is a video of it. Go from the 4 minute mark to around the 5 and half minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcoAkNU24Vw

You see that slight procession and then backward motion? Now instead of just a line of people doing it as shown in the video, imagine groups of people, hundreds, wearing the same color I mentioned doing that in formation. Then imagine that the red-dressed people moved in one direction passing the green-dressed people who were moving in the opposite direction, then the gold dressed people in another direction, and so on. In other words, if you could see all of that from above, from the ceiling of the place, you would see color swirls of the differently dressed people. Remember, the swirls are independent from each other yet side by side. Add to all of that the choral aspects such as you hear in the video but multiply to a thousand voices. I hope all of that gives you an idea of what it looked and sounded like.

I stood there transfixed by this scene. The feelings that were emanating from it were of a JOY that was absolutely irrefutable. At one point I heard myself saying emphatically in the dream, "Now, THAT! is a Christmas celebration!". :D

When did I have that dream? Around a week or so before Easter (Google Christmas-Easter connections). But here's the thing: I haven't gone to church in decades, since I was boy of around 12. And the extent of religion since then has been mostly in discussing it as philosophy, politically, etc. 'Spirituality' would more descriptive of what I've pondered and even at that not in a routine or particular form of it.

A part of me wanted to get nearer, join in with those people in their celebration. But as you may know from your own dreams, sometimes the itinerary, for whatever reason, is not in your control. I smiled at the scene, enjoyed the wonderful feeling from it and walked away. Shortly thereafter the dream stopped.

Now, in what you previously stated, that would be a rich field for examination in the sense of what the 'connections' might be. Did the subconscious/unconscious delight me with a fantastic mind movie since, hey, it's that time of the season? Or was I fortunate enough in some trans-dimensional way to "be" at the actual location of this event? Whichever one, even the most hard-bitten nihilist would have had the biggest, goofiest and most joyful smile on his or her face. The scene and feelings were, IRREFUTABLY AWESOME. :)



If emotion is attached to your experience it can be blinding to and hard tocseparate the message of the dream or communication from subconscious to conscious mind, it could be a beckoning to invest time into studying religious texts, I'd meditate or concentrate on it, the first organic thoughts or intuitive feeling of description you get from the idea separate from an exaggeration of emotions are usually pretty accurate.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Wed May 08, 2019 3:22 am

Artimas wrote:If emotion is attached to your experience it can be blinding to and hard tocseparate the message of the dream or communication from subconscious to conscious mind, it could be a beckoning to invest time into studying religious texts, I'd meditate or concentrate on it, the first organic thoughts or intuitive feeling of description you get from the idea separate from an exaggeration of emotions are usually pretty accurate.

Emotion was the message of that dream. I say that because with dreams I usually do review, as many people do, and meditate on them afterward to see which elements compare, contrast, and refer to what is occurring in the awake state. In this dream that emotion, elation, joy, was the purest message and it didn't take too much reviewing to see how that related to my present experiences.

I agree with you that emotion could interfere with an assessment. But I'm sure you also know from your own such examinations that dream material is of a highly fluid character, 'separations' are not so defined. It's like examining water on a slide under a microscope compared to examining water in situ such as a stream, a shore, the rain, etc. The former can give you some details but the latter examples can show a larger dynamic and context. In this particular dream related, emotion was front and center.

Nonetheless, I do intend to meditate on it and see where the details lead especially because of its wonderful import. Nothing wrong with reverse engineering, as long as the 'quality' of what is being examined is not compromised.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 08, 2019 4:15 am

Can the sub-conscious be attributed in a dream(2 doors) within the sub conscious?

My experience with an auditory dream with no visuals, indicate 2 mental processes going on at the same time? Like the auditory , one with no or little content, and one with it?
And the key to the helper in two forms( old lady, young man), be indicative about some need to describing both forms? Or something like this?

An example is one mentioned, as the Polanyi dream, strictly auditory, linear and may be interpretive of a kind of Oracle, as mentioned above.

Or another, with a question to the oracle: as also mentioned, about a game being played in the unconscious, a prisoner's dilemma occuring within the unconscious , the dream. Can the two helpers or even guardians facilitate recognition of metaphoric content?

In that event a deothness to the roles can be discerned to arise, as a third man solution to the dilemma.

Solution: at the level of contradiction, the metaphor has to include, not exclude the middle .

This requirement, is necessary for proper dream interpretation as a transcendentalky full content.
Can I thus, incorporate the Polanyi example , and give substance to the question of whether there really is a way, an exit out of one dimensionality, and pricerde from the seeming existential nothingness into the content of full being.

If I can shed light here, it may support proof positive for elevating the question worthy to ask, the oracle.

The thing is, the man in the middle in a transcendental/transactional situation, relies on the flow of suggested dream-scales, where the two tries to diminish the difference between types of helpers , I f not, they can switch roles , and become hunters.

The two drives the hunter, there by becoming hunted. by becoming non distinguishable, and that is a difficult middle position.

Oracle not accessible there, and leads either to repression - turning into dreams. Or strike out, the third. , excluding the middle, who is desperately trying to stay within.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Wed May 08, 2019 7:27 am

Meno

I'm sure that when you write your observations and questions there is a rhyme and reason. But I find that trying to make the connections of what you say is at times like playing pick-up sticks. So with that in mind let's clarify a couple or so questions at a time.

"Can the sub-conscious be attributed in a dream(2 doors) within the sub conscious?"

Are you asking if the dream of the double doors can be attributable to the subconscious? 'Within' it as opposed to an external location such as an OBE would imply?

"My experience with an auditory dream with no visuals..."

To my recollection, I do not remember ever having an auditory dream with no visuals. The nearest analogy that I can think of would be listening to a piece of music 'as itself'. But even there the music would provoke some imagery.

What do you mean by, "Oracle"? And your statement of, "..worthy to ask, the oracle" ?

Let's start with those.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 08, 2019 7:59 am

Del Ivers wrote:Meno

I'm sure that when you write your observations and questions there is a rhyme and reason. But I find that trying to make the connections of what you say is at times like playing pick-up sticks. So with that in mind let's clarify a couple or so questions at a time.

"Can the sub-conscious be attributed in a dream(2 doors) within the sub conscious?"

Are you asking if the dream of the double doors can be attributable to the subconscious? 'Within' it as opposed to an external location such as an OBE would imply?

-----------------

Yes, the double door image or symbol covers 3 realm- the conscious, the unconscious, and the sub-conscious, with the sub- conscious involved with deep symbolism, as Artemis alluded to in his treatment of the vast ancient ages effects on the psyche. Most dreams are merely unconscious, I believe, but deeper REM sleep often occurs, exceptionally with dreams, however. These deep images are the ones kings consulted the Oracle of Delphi. They are extremely difficult, and almost unbelievable in their significance. Maybe my Polanyi dream was like that, but extremely one dimensional, as if the symbolism become a hidden metaphor, could not filter substantial matter to enlighten.

"My experience with an auditory dream with no visuals..."

----------
This was the only dream apparent to me in my life, making it unique among other dreams.
------------------------

To my recollection, I do not remember ever having an auditory dream with no visuals. The nearest analogy that I can think of would be listening to a piece of music 'as itself'. But even there the music would provoke some imagery.

What do you mean by, "Oracle"? And your statement of, "..worthy to ask, the oracle" ?

I think my above explanations are sufficient, but must admit an uncertainty that approaches incredulity. Therefore initially welcomed Your 'helpers'

Let's start with those.



This start maybe a beginning or end, depending Your appreciation of the general framework of the connective impulse leading to an intentional motive, as is traditionally viewed philosophically and psychologically. Mind You, this is uncharted territory, especially from my point of view, and it's more inclined to concern with Jung than with a Freudian look into dreams.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Wed May 08, 2019 9:04 pm

Meno_ wrote:Yes, the double door image or symbol covers 3 realms- the conscious, the unconscious, and the sub-conscious, with the sub- conscious involved with deep symbolism,

I will answer that with my take on the character of symbolism as it applies to the particular dream related in this topic. I do this partly because I think that it's the pivot of your observations and partly because I still find it tricky to interpret the manner in which you relate on said observations. There's nothing wrong with such manner, it's the 'voice' of the writer. But at times, said voice might employ free association modes that makes the sequence of interpretation by the reader a kind of patchwork.

Symbolism, by it's very definition is of a 'representational' character. Thus it is not the, 'thing-in-itself'. What that means re the dream related is that we are left with the task of discerning whether it is wholly generated by the subconscious' apparatus, or if it's of supraconscious or even super-physical import (remote viewing being one example of super-physical). In other words, the 'helpers' are either representational mirages, or they are actual entities albeit in a distant 'locale' that the perceiver witnesses. At this point things are fairly neat and simple, it's either-or.

I figure you know of the Hermetic Principles. The first one, the Principle of Mentalism, states that, 'The All is Mind; the Universe is Mental". That at a foundational level all phenomena of life share a connection in the fact that they exist within the mind of 'The All'. If such a context holds, then symbolism would be relegated to the status of, say, a photograph. It can be a good photograph, depicts things clearly and sharply, and as such still qualifies as an effective representational device. But it would no longer be considered a principle 'generator' of phenomena, it would only generate 'reiterations' of itself. Just from this we could radiate out in different considerations but here I just want to focus on the aspect of the 'helpers'.

If the premise of 'All is Mind' holds, then the 'helpers', and for that matter all other phenomena in dreams/OBEs, are actualities, they're 'real', not merely symbolic products. It would echo what you noted in an earlier post: ".. for life may indeed be merely a dream." I would only differ with you on the 'merely'. :-)

Symbolism is not without merit, we rely on it for many things in our existence. Language itself, perhaps the premier stream of symbolism, is what we use every day and right now in this discussion. Yet, as philosophers have pointed out and what every person has noted without necessarily being a philosopher, language is a representation. It's been said that, 'The map is not the territory'. At least with that we have 'territory' as the focus. With symbolism it could be that, 'The symbols are not the map'. And if we regard language in that manner, well, then it could very well be, 'Language is . . . . .' (and you fill in whatever is appropriate for you).

So, in the 'All is Mind' premise, the 'helpers', the 'ghost' aspects, and yes, the Oracle, could all be real. They only seem unreal because our station in existence is maybe not equipped to perceive them. Thus, perhaps, our reliance on an ethos of representation in so many of our endeavors.

Does any of that mean that I am now free to ignore all symbols? No, if when I'm driving I see a stop sign, I will stop. I don't think 'All is Mind' will regard me lesser for it. :-)
Last edited by Del Ivers on Thu May 09, 2019 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 09, 2019 12:09 am

Sure the representation within the absolute mind is merely a map. And that is a conscious interpretation within the symbolic content of the dream.

However that interpretation coincides with the Freudian totem , and levels down it is less figurative, more substantial, in terms of the sensible , qua, sensation , less figurative, and that is the source of major oracles, it's source has been filtered through the muraids of time, before that, and before even that, into a downward spiral infinity, whose totem is really the beginning of phallic inference.

If your were to along Freud's line. But Jung extends this into more dimensions and ends up with reality within epochs which bear definition within their own subsequent perimeters. Their flowing into each other is based more on metaphor then actual succession of images and ideas spliced together, mostly their gaps consist of situational variable fillers, because all representation. Is acquired after exposure, a posteriori.

It appears as flow, and my free flow only factually submerges such flow into the lower realms of increasingly excluded temporal space.

At the limit, the unfathomable looks backward at the identified essence who asks the oracle. This absolute can be accessed, but only subliminally, from beyond where limits no longer assail with scepticism and doubt. It is through the veils of doubt that certainty comes to emit a generated energy packet of quantum uncertainty, made explicit by the power of the will to communion.
The helpers need to appear to alley the uncertainty, because at the level of the inquiry , the inquirer would be thrown into apotheosis of incredible negative power, most certainly destroyed by such energy.
The helpers may be a defensive shield to the dream's downward lunge into the unfathomable .
Nietzsche was a pioneer, he has become a helper. For me, it's Polanyi.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 pm

Meno_ wrote:Sure the representation within the absolute mind is merely a map. And that is a conscious interpretation within the symbolic content of the dream.

I'm not sure about that segue. By, "within the symbolic content.." do you actually mean "of the symbolic content..." ? There is a difference, or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Could you please rephrase that?

Meno_ wrote:If your were to along Freud's line.

I can see the totemic aspect re this discussion because of the 'representational' element. But what does the Freudian totem with its connotations have to do with the context of the 'helper' dreams? Are the 'helpers' of sexual significance or were you using that totem as merely an example discharged of its particular characteristics?

Interesting that you bring up Jung. He once said that God spoke through dreams and visions. That would seem to make a case for the first Hermetic principle. By the way, you didn't say if you considered the principle a valid one.

Meno_ wrote:The helpers need to appear to alley the uncertainty..

I gather you mean, 'allay'?

Yes, as I noted in an earlier post there may be safeguards employed. Whether by the inquirer or an 'other', I'm not sure.

Meno_ wrote:..the inquirer would be thrown into apotheosis of incredible negative power, most certainly destroyed by such energy.

If that is so - or more accurately, the potential for that - it implies an 'agent' independent of the inquirer (assuming you mean by 'inquirer' the person having the dream experience) who is aware of a peril that the inquirer is unaware of. Following along that line, would the frequency of 'helper' dreams be an indicator as to proximity to destructive regions? Similar to, let's say, a spaceship registering the outermost traction of a black hole?

Meno_ wrote:The helpers may be a defensive shield to the dream's downward lunge into the unfathomable .

Or, upward? Though in the omnidirectional display of direction such as implied by, 'All is Mind', then up, down, left right, etc., may be irrelevant.

By the way, I understand how you use 'apotheosis', but it's a tricky word to use in some contexts because one of its roots is, 'the act of making someone into a god'. Then again, maybe you are of the opinion that dreams/OBEs, especially high-risk ones, are possibly preparatory for such. :-)
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 11, 2019 1:02 am

Del Ivers wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Sure the representation within the absolute mind is merely a map. And that is a conscious interpretation within the symbolic content of the dream.

I'm not sure about that segue. By, "within the symbolic content.." do you actually mean "of the symbolic content..." ? There is a difference, or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Could you please rephrase that?

Meno_ wrote:If your were to along Freud's line.

I can see the totemic aspect re this discussion because of the 'representational' element. But what does the Freudian totem with its connotations have to do with the context of the 'helper' dreams? Are the 'helpers' of sexual significance or were you using that totem as merely an example discharged of its particular characteristics?

Interesting that you bring up Jung. He once said that God spoke through dreams and visions. That would seem to make a case for the first Hermetic principle. By the way, you didn't say if you considered the principle a valid one.

Meno_ wrote:The helpers need to appear to alley the uncertainty..

I gather you mean, 'allay'?

Yes, as I noted in an earlier post there may be safeguards employed. Whether by the inquirer or an 'other', I'm not sure.

Meno_ wrote:..the inquirer would be thrown into apotheosis of incredible negative power, most certainly destroyed by such energy.

If that is so - or more accurately, the potential for that - it implies an 'agent' independent of the inquirer (assuming you mean by 'inquirer' the person having the dream experience) who is aware of a peril that the inquirer is unaware of. Following along that line, would the frequency of 'helper' dreams be an indicator as to proximity to destructive regions? Similar to, let's say, a spaceship registering the outermost traction of a black hole?

Meno_ wrote:The helpers may be a defensive shield to the dream's downward lunge into the unfathomable .

Or, upward? Though in the omnidirectional display of direction such as implied by, 'All is Mind', then up, down, left right, etc., may be irrelevant.

By the way, I understand how you use 'apotheosis', but it's a tricky word to use in some contexts because one of its roots is, 'the act of making someone into a god'. Then again, maybe you are of the opinion that dreams/OBEs, especially high-risk ones, are possibly preparatory for such. :-)
:

Meno_"]Sure the representation within the absolute mind is merely a map. And that is a conscious interpretation within the symbolic content of the dream. [/quote]
I'm not sure about that segue. By, "within the symbolic content.." do you actually mean "of the symbolic content..." ? There is a difference, or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Could you please rephrase that?



1. Your first question is caught up in semantic complexity, therefore, and since the dissection of hybrid re-presentation between cognitive differentials is sourced in definitions, I quote Frege:

Sep 23, 2007 · The central idea of the alternative interpretation is that for Frege, the question whether a given thought is logically entailed by a collection of thoughts is sensitive not just to the formal structure of the sentences used to express those thoughts, but also to the contents of
the simple (e.g., geometric) terms ...

Here 'formal' can entail 'absolute' as well, reminiscent of set theory, where the absolute contains every set, including it'self.

Here conscious, unconscious(sleep derived) and subconscious (absolute containment of awareness past, present and future)-[ remember we alluded to this previously, in terms of of primary spatial determinants of time.] Absolute spatial indeterminancy exposes the lack of object(ive) of the imminence of all cognition. Transcendence, on the other hand is objectified by a particular epoch, or the object's frame of reference, or context which brings about the overcoming of said object, referred to.
The overcoming of it, sets in motion(spatial relativity per movement through time) of the objective particular.
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