Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

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Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sat May 12, 2012 10:06 am

Hey people: Here's the debate between me and Stoic. It's reasonably short and sweet:

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=178882

Vote for either Stoic or myself as you see fit. Give a few reasons for your vote, even if it's like "My cat liked Stoic's linebreaks".

We'd prefer it if you have at least 100 posts to your name, but to be honest, that requirement will go right out of the window as time goes on and we become increasingly desperate for validation from any source whatsoever.

Vote, tell your friends to vote, stop random people in the street and ask "Tab or Stoic, which one..?" then report their decisions.

Please God vote.

[-o<

[as per usual me and Stoic will bump the living shit out of this thread, until at least 9 votes are in or a week's up, whichever comes first]
Last edited by Tab on Sat May 12, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Stoic Guardian » Sat May 12, 2012 11:21 am

:text-imwithstupid:

:text-bump:

:text-feedback:
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sat May 12, 2012 12:30 pm

:lol:
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Sat May 12, 2012 1:17 pm

i thought you were both pretty persuasive - the debate probably should have gone on longer. i'm almost loathe to vote for that reason. but i guess in the end, i may have to go with Tab, primarily because i agree with him that it's much harder to overthrow dictators nowadays, and doing so usually involves the death of lots of people. if nothing else, democracy allows for far more frequent and peaceful transitions of power.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Stoic Guardian » Sat May 12, 2012 1:38 pm

Did you notice how I said twice something along the lines of "can we make the debate longer"?
Last edited by Stoic Guardian on Sat May 12, 2012 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sat May 12, 2012 2:52 pm

Thanks for the vote UPF.

Stoic Guardian wrote:Did you notice how I said twice something along the lines of "can we make the deate longer"?


I did notice that actually. But my attention span isn't what it used to be. Say it well, say it short, is my motto.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Trajicomic » Sat May 12, 2012 4:22 pm

Nice graphics but no argument Tab, fuck you the other guy wins.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sat May 12, 2012 6:13 pm

Toldja.

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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sat May 12, 2012 8:43 pm

So anyway, there were these two guys in a bar
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sun May 13, 2012 1:23 am

one said to the other
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Stoic Guardian » Sun May 13, 2012 1:26 am

"Pour me a Bourban you thin necked son of a bitch!"
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sun May 13, 2012 5:36 pm

"But I'm not the barman", the man replied.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sun May 13, 2012 8:31 pm

Erm. Bump.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Sun May 13, 2012 10:37 pm

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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby barcelonic » Mon May 14, 2012 12:45 am

I'm not swayed by graphics but im gonna go with Tab cus i thought there were a few points in Stoic's last post Tab would have leapt on
but kudos both - great debating :)
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Stoic Guardian » Mon May 14, 2012 3:12 am

:|
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Mon May 14, 2012 8:41 am

Tab: 2
Stoic: 1

Lol, the quality of judging is setting new records for ILP. I expect Sam Harris will turn up next and say "tab ur gr8t" then disappear again.

Thanks for the vote B.
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Re: Democracy v. Dictatorships

Postby Only_Humean » Mon May 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Nice debate.

1) I liked Tab's approach from the process/game theory angle; I think it's the perfect subject to illustrate the concept of efficient & brittle systems vs. inefficient & robust ones. And as economies become larger and more complex, having a one-man bottleneck pushes things more into the disastrously-brittle system end of things.

2) I don't agree that violence is a past-tense response to dictatorship; dictators rely on popular support/consent today. The differences between Egypt and Syria are not in the technological sophistication of the weapons available to the government, but in the willingness of the leadership to continue to kill its own people, the strength of conservative support, the politics of neighbouring countries and covert or overt international pressures and incentives, that sort of thing. All of which are good old-fashioned political considerations going right back to the dawn of States.

3) What is different now is the knowledge and effectiveness of psychological conditioning techniques. Although democracies are as free to use them as dictatorships, as long as they're clever about them.

4) I'm not sure how dictatorships have as much freedom and liberty as democracies, unless the implicit message is that there is no real choice in democracies. Most dictatorships are considerably tetchier about border controls, and you at least lose the freedom to vote.

5) Overall, I found Stoic's arguments to be less focussed. There was often an air of "well, dictatorships aren't always worse than democracies", which isn't so much a merit as a lack of demerit. And many of Tab's points went unaddressed - possibly due to time constraints. Tab writes a lot :P As an example - dictatorships may fall and are replaced faster, but the point had already been made that democracies ensure a pool of people who are familiar with institutional government, which would be lacking in a replacement for a dictatorship.

6) Both sides had spiffy pictures.

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On balance, my vote: Tab.
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Re: Democracy v. Dictatorships

Postby Only_Humean » Mon May 14, 2012 2:10 pm

Late vote, just come in:

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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Mon May 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Cheers OH.

Tab: 3
Stoic: 1

Plus a vote from special guest star :bow-yellow: Sam Harris :bow-yellow: . Who'd a thunk it..? Thanks Sam, but since you fall outside of the 100 post minimum requirement, I cannot in all conscience accept your judgement.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Tue May 15, 2012 2:15 am

I shall vote tomorrow.
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby tentative » Tue May 15, 2012 6:10 pm

Tab has to win the vote, but more because stoic failed to press his case. There are many examples of benevolent dictatorship that weren't mentioned. Both democracy and dictatorship have their strengths and weaknesses.

Tab, your argument boils down to: Quick death = dictatorship
Slow death = democracy

All governmental systems eventually fail because humans refuse to pay attention. The only choice seems to be hung or decapitated -vs- being nibbled to death by rats...
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Tab » Tue May 15, 2012 6:22 pm

Cheers JT.

Tab 4
Stoic 1

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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Trajicomic » Tue May 15, 2012 6:25 pm

barcelonic doesn't have the 100 post minimum, so his vote doesn't count.

It looks like Tab's friends have come into the thread, voting for him subjectively, not based on any actual content of argument. The votes are based on loyalty and subjective bias, nothing more.

You don't even need to read the arguments of the debate, to know the outcome of this mockery of a "vote". Where is the eye roll smiley?
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Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

Postby Trajicomic » Tue May 15, 2012 6:27 pm

Stoic, let this become a lesson to you, that no matter how well you make a point, or argue, that popularity wins in the end. Get some "friends" to come vote for you, if you want to participate in any "philosophy" here.

Were the arguments even necessary? Should have just skipped the thread, and went straight to voting. The same results would have transpired.
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