Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:22 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
promethean75 wrote:are you saying jesus is just alright, ierrellus?

Holiness simply means being whole, not being separated or having warring parts. Atonement means at-one-ment. See NT James on what it means to be holy.
See Jesus for the way the truth and the life. Again, we were created whole , but forgot who we are. Sin means missing the mark. Jesus is the reminder. There was no plan to cause sin in order to warrant a redeemer. The mark was there from the beginnings of creation; it was the Word.


This last is an outright lie.

Jesus was chosen before the world was even created. A remedy is not invented before the disseise is unless one knows that he has built in and planed for the sin/disease to be born.

If you have to lie, do not make it such an obvious lie, especially as you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan as he had to have a job for his immoral messiah and immoral people who will follow such a vile god, like you.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:28 pm

I Am,
Welcome to the mythology that has kept man and nature at odds for millions of years and proffers our extinction.
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:22 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I Am,
Welcome to the mythology that has kept man and nature at odds for millions of years and proffers our extinction.


I agree that our religions have dumbed us down to what nature demands of us to the point of us imperilling ourselves during this global extinction event.

We have become poor stewards or our eco system and it is letting us know that in spades.

That is what thinking that using an immoral concept like scapegoating a Jesus type has helped do to us.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:30 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I Am,
Welcome to the mythology that has kept man and nature at odds for millions of years and proffers our extinction.


I agree that our religions have dumbed us down to what nature demands of us to the point of us imperilling ourselves during this global extinction event.

We have become poor stewards or our eco system and it is letting us know that in spades.

That is what thinking that using an immoral concept like scapegoating a Jesus type has helped do to us.

Regards
DL

Mea culpa---I meant thousands of years not millions. Just defensive because you agree with me about religion and Nature then attack my beliefs,
Getting and spending we lay waste our powers
Little we see in Nature that is ours.==Wordsworth.
Throughout history dominion has come to mean exploitation--because we can.
This is the way the world will end,
Not with a bang, but a whimper.--T. S. Eliot
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:48 pm

Was the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden a fall into mind and responsibility or a fall into sin and culpability? The latter taints the creation of the human psyche with a fatal flaw. The former agrees with creative evolution.
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:12 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Was the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden a fall into mind and responsibility or a fall into sin and culpability? The latter taints the creation of the human psyche with a fatal flaw. The former agrees with creative evolution.


I agree with the Jewish interpretation that Christianity reversed, --- sort of, as they have conflicted their beliefs.
Jews saw Original virtue while Christians, on the one hand call Eden where man produced Original sin, while on the other hand they preach and sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Jews smart, Christians conflicted and stupid.

In older times Christians could do apologetics around the necessary sin, but todays apologist have been dumbed down to where they cannot and I will not show them how.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:16 pm

Ierrellus wrote:[
Mea culpa---I meant thousands of years not millions. Just defensive because you agree with me about religion and Nature then attack my beliefs,


Apologies.

I am prolific and feisty and sometime err.

I spend way to much time fighting the religious and it has likely effected my attitude with non-believers as well.

I will have to try harder to remember to keep my bully side in check with those on my side.

My sieve of a memory does not help.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:18 pm

The notion of creative evolution can see a coming together of religious and scientific viewpoints. Einstein commented that he did not doubt God did it, but wanted to understand how it was done. Science and religion do not have to be enemies.
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:35 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The notion of creative evolution can see a coming together of religious and scientific viewpoints. Einstein commented that he did not doubt God did it, but wanted to understand how it was done. Science and religion do not have to be enemies.


Trends in naturalist/science thinking have come and gone in history within religions but both religions and science now both have a god of the gaps and no, supernatural religions and natural science do not mix.

We either live in a natural world or a supernatural controlled world and the two thinking systems will always be in opposition.

Religions are dying and given the immoral natures of most of them, especially the mainstream ones like Christianity and Islam, so the sooner we are rid of them the better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRHefbIgKxk&t=91s

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:27 pm

Ierrellus,

What do YOU mean by Divine and why do you call yourself Divine?

Can I please have your response according to what you think and feel and not the thoughts and feelings of whoever wrote A Course in Miracles (is it?) et cetera.
You were an English teacher I remember so you can handle this well.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:33 pm

By being divine I simply mean I am an integral part of all that exists. My belonging here is beyond questioning. I see nature as divine in the same sense; however, I see most humans as in conflict with nature which is a conflict to the death. Most think nature needs to be revised to suit our wants.
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:27 pm

Greatest I am

Jesus was chosen before the world was even created. A remedy is not invented before the disseise is


Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?

unless one knows that he has built in and planed for the sin/disease to be born.


So, are you saying here that God did this?


If you have to lie, do not make it such an obvious lie,


There is a difference between a lie and an honest opinion. He is as entitled to his beliefs as you are to yours, Greatest I Am. They are all beliefs as none can be proven.

especially as you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan as he had to have a job for his immoral messiah and immoral people who will follow such a vile god, like you.


Has anyone ever told you that you ought to bring your attitude down a few notches? What you said to Ierrellus was pretty insulting.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby bahman » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:51 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Many think that God has a plan for all of us sinners, a perfect plan actually, to get as many of us into heaven as possible. Even all of us, if God is as perfect as some say he is. No God worth the title would have it any other way.

God's plan can never go off track or be fouled as that would show a weakness in God and his ability to plan perfectly.

The above being irrefutable, if there is a God and a plan, indicates that this reality is the best that Yahweh can accomplish?

It is interesting that scriptures say that to backslide is evil, while it ignores that if there is a plan in place, then the world is in it’s best possible form. Scriptures that show a backsliding God and world must be wrong.

Thanks to God’s plan, we are living in perfection. To think otherwise would be seeing God get a fail on maintaining the initial perfection of creation.

In the beginning, all was perfect. That perfection cannot be allowed to backslide if there is a God.

Do you see God as a backslider or a God whose plan is running along in a perfect way?

Sing the hymn with me of Adam’s sin. It says that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.

Were we created to be sinners?

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God cannot possibly plan things for free agents.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:20 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I am

Jesus was chosen before the world was even created. A remedy is not invented before the disseise is


Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?

unless one knows that he has built in and planed for the sin/disease to be born.


So, are you saying here that God did this?


If you have to lie, do not make it such an obvious lie,


There is a difference between a lie and an honest opinion. He is as entitled to his beliefs as you are to yours, Greatest I Am. They are all beliefs as none can be proven.

especially as you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan as he had to have a job for his immoral messiah and immoral people who will follow such a vile god, like you.


Has anyone ever told you that you ought to bring your attitude down a few notches? What you said to Ierrellus was pretty insulting.


Sure, by those whose ancestors used inquisitions and jihads and whose foul religions continue to discriminate and denigrate half the worlds population of gays and women with their vile homophobic and misogynous teachings.

I will not relent in fighting such moral monsters. If you are not up to doing the right thing, then don't.

We were talking of Jesus and I took Ierrellus to be a Christian.

Christians are abdicating their own responsibility for their own sins and that is immoral. They also think that Jesus would do the immoral thing by asking them to do so as a condition to their being saved.

Such immoral thinking and minds deserve insulting and wher I come from, we call spades spades.

"Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?

Christian thinking says that he was chosen to be their scapegoat messiah.

"So, are you saying here that God did this?"

So his book of myths say, after all, this was even before the earth was created or the potential for sin.

A cure is not invented before the disease is. That is how stupid the Christian theology is.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:26 am

bahman wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Many think that God has a plan for all of us sinners, a perfect plan actually, to get as many of us into heaven as possible. Even all of us, if God is as perfect as some say he is. No God worth the title would have it any other way.

God's plan can never go off track or be fouled as that would show a weakness in God and his ability to plan perfectly.

The above being irrefutable, if there is a God and a plan, indicates that this reality is the best that Yahweh can accomplish?

It is interesting that scriptures say that to backslide is evil, while it ignores that if there is a plan in place, then the world is in it’s best possible form. Scriptures that show a backsliding God and world must be wrong.

Thanks to God’s plan, we are living in perfection. To think otherwise would be seeing God get a fail on maintaining the initial perfection of creation.

In the beginning, all was perfect. That perfection cannot be allowed to backslide if there is a God.

Do you see God as a backslider or a God whose plan is running along in a perfect way?

Sing the hymn with me of Adam’s sin. It says that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.

Were we created to be sinners?

Regards
DL

God cannot possibly plan things for free agents.


I agree but many places in the bible show where god ignores our free will and interferes in mankind's affairs.

In the case of the O.P., when god chose Jesus to die, like dominos, to make Jesus die, god has to make sure there is a killer there to do the dirty deed.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:48 pm

I mentioned two views of "the Fall of Man" that bear repeating:
1. a fall into sin and culpability
2, a fall into mind and responsibility
I believe the myth is about the formation of the human psyche resulting in view 2.
A scientist, whose name escapes me now, coined the phrase "the fall into Mind", an evolutionary plus for mankind.
As for free will, there is some leeway for swimming for fish in a barrel.
I Am, I thought it obvious that I am a Christian naturalist, not into myths that cannot account for creative evolution as evident in ecosystems and natural cycles. For me, Jesus is the glue that holds all things together. The glue is love; the lack of love is dislocation and destruction.
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:14 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I mentioned two views of "the Fall of Man" that bear repeating:
1. a fall into sin and culpability
2, a fall into mind and responsibility
I believe the myth is about the formation of the human psyche resulting in view 2.
A scientist, whose name escapes me now, coined the phrase "the fall into Mind", an evolutionary plus for mankind.
As for free will, there is some leeway for swimming for fish in a barrel.
I Am, I thought it obvious that I am a Christian naturalist, not into myths that cannot account for creative evolution as evident in ecosystems and natural cycles. For me, Jesus is the glue that holds all things together. The glue is love; the lack of love is dislocation and destruction.


We are on the same page other than your reference to Jesus.

To me, Jesus just shows the way, like all good mystics, to Gnosis, and leads us to become our own Jesus and savior in terms of growing into full adulthood.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:11 pm

Greatest I AM,

Has anyone ever told you that you ought to bring your attitude down a few notches? What you said to Ierrellus was pretty insulting.

Sure, by those whose ancestors used inquisitions and jihads and whose foul religions continue to discriminate and denigrate half the worlds population of gays and women with their vile homophobic and misogynous teachings.


I can agree with you that there is a lot in the bible that is both hateful and ugly but we have come a long way since then even though some are still highly mysogynistic, racist and homophobic, either because it gives them an excuse to be that way, because of their faulty thinking or because they are not capable of questioning these beliefs.

I will not relent in fighting such moral monsters. If you are not up to doing the right thing, then don't.

We were talking of Jesus and I took Ierrellus to be a Christian.


So because you assumed that Ierrellus was a Christian, you automatically insulted him. Do you find anything "Inquisitor"-like about that?
Do you look to the Christian, the kind of human being he or she is and the way in which they live their life or are they automatically "anathema" to you? I am asking because I really want to know this. Look what you said to Ierrellus.


Christians are abdicating their own responsibility for their own sins and that is immoral.


Why do you keep "lumping" everyone together? I am not so sure that a Christian, one who actually practices his religion and is self-aware, automatically does this. If a person does not take responsibility as you say for their sins, it has a lot less to do with their religion and a lot more to do with them simply as an "individual". They are the type of individual who does not want to see his own guilt and responsibility.


They also think that Jesus would do the immoral thing by asking them to do so as a condition to their being saved.


I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?

Such immoral thinking and minds deserve insulting and wher I come from, we call spades spades.


So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting. Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.


"
Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?

Christian thinking says that he was chosen to be their scapegoat messiah.


I would have let out the word "scapegoat" but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.

Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God, not one who was pressured, and not a slave.

I realize that a lot that is in the bible is just myth and belief and just in case you may not have noticed, there are also some beautiful "pearls there. There was a time as a Catholic, and one who was raised in a Catholic Orphanage, that I also believed a lot but there was also a lot that I disregarded because it did not make sense and because some of what was in the bible was hateful and ugly. I have since shed that "skin" but you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples' beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.


"So, are you saying here that God did this?"

So his book of myths say, after all, this was even before the earth was created or the potential for sin.


You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.

Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?

Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?




A cure is not invented before the disease is. That is how stupid the Christian theology is.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:11 pm

Greatest I AM,

Has anyone ever told you that you ought to bring your attitude down a few notches? What you said to Ierrellus was pretty insulting.

Sure, by those whose ancestors used inquisitions and jihads and whose foul religions continue to discriminate and denigrate half the worlds population of gays and women with their vile homophobic and misogynous teachings.


I can agree with you that there is a lot in the bible that is both hateful and ugly but we have come a long way since then even though some are still highly mysogynistic, racist and homophobic, either because it gives them an excuse to be that way, because of their faulty thinking or because they are not capable of questioning these beliefs.

I will not relent in fighting such moral monsters. If you are not up to doing the right thing, then don't.

We were talking of Jesus and I took Ierrellus to be a Christian.


So because you assumed that Ierrellus was a Christian, you automatically insulted him. Do you find anything "Inquisitor"-like about that?
Do you look to the Christian, the kind of human being he or she is and the way in which they live their life or are they automatically "anathema" to you? I am asking because I really want to know this. Look what you said to Ierrellus.


Christians are abdicating their own responsibility for their own sins and that is immoral.


Why do you keep "lumping" everyone together? I am not so sure that a Christian, one who actually practices his religion and is self-aware, automatically does this. If a person does not take responsibility as you say for their sins, it has a lot less to do with their religion and a lot more to do with them simply as an "individual". They are the type of individual who does not want to see his own guilt and responsibility.


They also think that Jesus would do the immoral thing by asking them to do so as a condition to their being saved.


I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?

Such immoral thinking and minds deserve insulting and wher I come from, we call spades spades.


So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting. Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.


"
Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?

Christian thinking says that he was chosen to be their scapegoat messiah.


I would have let out the word "scapegoat" but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.

Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God, not one who was pressured, and not a slave.

I realize that a lot that is in the bible is just myth and belief and just in case you may not have noticed, there are also some beautiful "pearls there. There was a time as a Catholic, and one who was raised in a Catholic Orphanage, that I also believed a lot but there was also a lot that I disregarded because it did not make sense and because some of what was in the bible was hateful and ugly. I have since shed that "skin" but you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples' beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.


"So, are you saying here that God did this?"

So his book of myths say, after all, this was even before the earth was created or the potential for sin.


You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.

Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?

Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?


A cure is not invented before the disease is.


Well, one way I can answer that is to say that according to those who believe in God, one of the attributes of God is that this God is Omnicient...All Knowing. Ergo God would have known ahead of time that humans would eventually evolve into imperfect, faulty beings.

That is how stupid the Christian theology is.


Something that is not understood, even if it is not quite "real" is either feared or thought to be stupid.
Re-read what is in quotes there above. How does that really sound to you?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:51 pm

"Arcturus Descending"

Why do you keep "lumping" everyone together?



Because if they call themselves Christian, I take it that they are just that.

What should I take them to be if not that? Buddhists?

I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?


Ride him as their scapegoat, according to Christian dogma.

So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting.


If the truth does it, which is all I give.

Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.


They are collectively hurting all gays and women with their homophobic and misogynous teachings.

"
Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?

I would have let out the word "scapegoat" but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.


Been there and done that and Jesus was chosen and did not volunteer.

Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God,


That sounds as retarded as a Christian. Would compassion not look more like god forgiving outright instead of by a G D human sacrifice?

you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples' beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.


Are they not denigrating and discriminating against half of the worlds population of women and gays?

Is doing unto other what they do not reciprocity and is reciprocity not fair paly?

For their evil to grow, all you and I need do is nothing. I am doing something.

You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.


You have Jesus breaking the laws he said he came to fulfill which say that our sins can only be forgiven us, not some innocent victim.

You have god opening the gate that he himself unjustly closed.

Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?


Yes I condemn all hypocrites.

Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?


That was not ever said by me.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:31 pm

Greatest I am"
Why do you keep "lumping" everyone together?


Because if they call themselves Christian, I take it that they are just that.

What should I take them to be if not that? Buddhists?


You missed the point here. The "lumping" together referred to your judgment of all Christians, no matter what kind of an individual he/she is. They are all evil/vile to you. Again, you believed Ierrellus to be Christian and so your trigger caused you to insult him.

Would you persecute, torture and murder Christians as the Nazis did the Jewish community? It was a rhetorical question. I am not saying that you would but we have a deep, dark shadow side to us where we may be capable of things which we might never have supposed. We needs to be watchful of that side.


I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?


Ride him as their scapegoat, according to Christian dogma.


I do not understand your use of the word "ride" here. What does that even mean?


AD: So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting.

GIA:If the truth does it, which is all I give.


So the answer to my question above is a YES?
Is seeing the truth, the real truth, such an easy thing to you?

Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth. Kahlil Gibran


Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.


They are collectively hurting all gays and women with their homophobic and misogynous teachings.


We agree on the above but I was speaking of your judgment of all of the Christians, et cetera who do no harm and try to live a good life.
Okay, maybe I am misunderstanding you because of that one remark you made to Ierrellus. Do you, in actuality, believe that all christians are wrong, vile and are morons, as you said to me?

Do you?

I would have let out the word "scapegoat" but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.

Been there and done that and Jesus was chosen and did not volunteer.


I do not think that those two actions are contradictory to each other. Give it some thought. At any rate, that might depend on the situation/circumstance. Some may also volunteer and because of that, ARE chosen. Their will is not taken from them.
At any rate, though Christ was the Son of God, he was equal in all ways. He took it upon himself to become human.


Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God,

That sounds as retarded as a Christian. Would compassion not look more like god forgiving outright instead of by a G D human sacrifice?


lol What do you mean by "forgiving outright"? A man continues to rape and murder without any feeling of guilt and/or remorse and God is to forgive him outright? What about the victims?

Compassion at times, human compassion, has to be balanced with intelligence and reason. We have to take responsibility and show that we have learned something. Are you a father? If so, do you simply forgive your child without teaching him that there are consequences to his actions and sometimes taking something away to teach him?

Anyway, let us not forget that according to Christian myth, the Gates of Heaven were closed so there HAD to be a redeemer to come and open them. That is supposed to show God as a loving, forgiving Father to His people. Tje OT God supposedly was not such a loving, compassionate God.

A lot of people, including Christians, sometimes have a problem with that part - God sending His son to die for us. People are still trying to understand The Holy Trinity. We cannot fathom that as human beings, God would sacrifice His Son or allow the Son to sacrifice Himself. So much has to be taken on faith and not questioned in order to work. Human beings make God into their own image without realizing that there is so much mystery there which cannot be understood. Maybe delving deeper into the meaning can be helpful. You know, thinking out of the box.


you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples' beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.

Are they not denigrating and discriminating against half of the worlds population of women and gays?


Yes, those who are, are. But I was speaking of your perception of Christians. Did you not say above: "That sounds as retarded as a Christian".

Is doing unto other what they do not reciprocity and is reciprocity not fair paly?


Sounds more like revenge to me, not justice. I was never one to follow "an eye for an eye" although at times I have to admit it might feel quite yummy to. Apparently you do.

For their evil to grow, all you and I need do is nothing. I am doing something.


What do You see yourself as doing?

You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.


You have Jesus breaking the laws he said he came to fulfill which say that our sins can only be forgiven us, not some innocent victim.[/quote]

Which laws do I have Jesus breaking? :evilfun:
I do not understand what you mean by what is in color.

You have god opening the gate that he himself unjustly closed.


Unjustly closed? If your child does something which is really wrong and you take away a toy or a privilege of his, who do you think has really taken away that privilege, yourself or your child? Actions have repercussions to them. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Somewhere in the bible it says that the "sins of the fathers (parents) shall be visited upon the children". Would you give that privilege back to your child so easily?

When you say you, are you referring to me the Christian? I am not one anymore. If I was, I would certainly not deny it.

Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?

Yes I condemn all hypocrites.


I suppose that you are speaKing only of those beliefs which would attack gay people, women, those with diseases, et cetera...those beliefs which state that it is God who is punishing because someone has Aids, et cetera? Attack THOSE beliefs and teach.

Ah, but these people are those who live in faith and do believe. They practice their beliefs. They harm no one. I think that you see things too much in simple black and white. There are colors and shades of colors.

Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?

That was not ever said by me.


Perhaps not in those exact words. But I intuit that you are certainly believing and living those words in spirit. I see it.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:37 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I am"
Why do you keep "lumping" everyone together?


Because if they call themselves Christian, I take it that they are just that.

What should I take them to be if not that? Buddhists?


You missed the point here. The "lumping" together referred to your judgment of all Christians, no matter what kind of an individual he/she is. They are all evil/vile to you. Again, you believed Ierrellus to be Christian and so your trigger caused you to insult him.

Would you persecute, torture and murder Christians as the Nazis did the Jewish community? It was a rhetorical question. I am not saying that you would but we have a deep, dark shadow side to us where we may be capable of things which we might never have supposed. We needs to be watchful of that side.


I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?


Ride him as their scapegoat, according to Christian dogma.


I do not understand your use of the word "ride" here. What does that even mean?


AD: So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting.

GIA:If the truth does it, which is all I give.


So the answer to my question above is a YES?
Is seeing the truth, the real truth, such an easy thing to you?

Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth. Kahlil Gibran


Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.


They are collectively hurting all gays and women with their homophobic and misogynous teachings.


We agree on the above but I was speaking of your judgment of all of the Christians, et cetera who do no harm and try to live a good life.
Okay, maybe I am misunderstanding you because of that one remark you made to Ierrellus. Do you, in actuality, believe that all christians are wrong, vile and are morons, as you said to me?

Do you?

I would have let out the word "scapegoat" but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.

Been there and done that and Jesus was chosen and did not volunteer.


I do not think that those two actions are contradictory to each other. Give it some thought. At any rate, that might depend on the situation/circumstance. Some may also volunteer and because of that, ARE chosen. Their will is not taken from them.
At any rate, though Christ was the Son of God, he was equal in all ways. He took it upon himself to become human.


Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God,

That sounds as retarded as a Christian. Would compassion not look more like god forgiving outright instead of by a G D human sacrifice?


lol What do you mean by "forgiving outright"? A man continues to rape and murder without any feeling of guilt and/or remorse and God is to forgive him outright? What about the victims?

Compassion at times, human compassion, has to be balanced with intelligence and reason. We have to take responsibility and show that we have learned something. Are you a father? If so, do you simply forgive your child without teaching him that there are consequences to his actions and sometimes taking something away to teach him?

Anyway, let us not forget that according to Christian myth, the Gates of Heaven were closed so there HAD to be a redeemer to come and open them. That is supposed to show God as a loving, forgiving Father to His people. Tje OT God supposedly was not such a loving, compassionate God.

A lot of people, including Christians, sometimes have a problem with that part - God sending His son to die for us. People are still trying to understand The Holy Trinity. We cannot fathom that as human beings, God would sacrifice His Son or allow the Son to sacrifice Himself. So much has to be taken on faith and not questioned in order to work. Human beings make God into their own image without realizing that there is so much mystery there which cannot be understood. Maybe delving deeper into the meaning can be helpful. You know, thinking out of the box.


you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples' beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.

Are they not denigrating and discriminating against half of the worlds population of women and gays?


Yes, those who are, are. But I was speaking of your perception of Christians. Did you not say above: "That sounds as retarded as a Christian".

Is doing unto other what they do not reciprocity and is reciprocity not fair paly?


Sounds more like revenge to me, not justice. I was never one to follow "an eye for an eye" although at times I have to admit it might feel quite yummy to. Apparently you do.

For their evil to grow, all you and I need do is nothing. I am doing something.


What do You see yourself as doing?

You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.


You have Jesus breaking the laws he said he came to fulfill which say that our sins can only be forgiven us, not some innocent victim.[/quote]

Which laws do I have Jesus breaking? :evilfun:
I do not understand what you mean by what is in color.

You have god opening the gate that he himself unjustly closed.


Unjustly closed? If your child does something which is really wrong and you take away a toy or a privilege of his, who do you think has really taken away that privilege, yourself or your child? Actions have repercussions to them. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Somewhere in the bible it says that the "sins of the fathers (parents) shall be visited upon the children". Would you give that privilege back to your child so easily?

When you say you, are you referring to me the Christian? I am not one anymore. If I was, I would certainly not deny it.

Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?

Yes I condemn all hypocrites.


I suppose that you are speaKing only of those beliefs which would attack gay people, women, those with diseases, et cetera...those beliefs which state that it is God who is punishing because someone has Aids, et cetera? Attack THOSE beliefs and teach.

Ah, but these people are those who live in faith and do believe. They practice their beliefs. They harm no one. I think that you see things too much in simple black and white. There are colors and shades of colors.

Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?

That was not ever said by me.


Perhaps not in those exact words. But I intuit that you are certainly believing and living those words in spirit. I see it.


Nice apology that shows that your assumption made an ass of you and you are doubling down on it.

Your post has way too much foolishness for me to deal with all of it so I will cherry pick.

Tell us, when you see Christians, let's say Catholics, all putting their cash in a collection basket while knowing that some of it will go to pedophile victims and air fare to move those pedophiles to new hunting grounds, how do you pick out the good Christians?

When some prick of a preacher is sermonizing about how women and gays are inferior with his homophobic and misogynous sermon, how do you pick out the good ones who disagree?

"We agree on the above but I was speaking of your judgment of all of the Christians, et cetera who do no harm and try to live a good life."

Supporting a homophobic and misogynous church is doing harm to those the church targets and if they are good people, as you say, they will leave that vile church.

"though Christ was the Son of God, he was equal in all ways. He took it upon himself to become human."

Supernaturally based idiocy that Constantine forced down Christianity's throat. Read your history.

"What about the victims?"

Glad you asked. The victim has the right to forgive while god does not.
If your wife gets raped, would she feel justice was done if god forgave her rapist?

" Are you a father? If so, do you simply forgive your child without teaching him that there are consequences to his actions and sometimes taking something away to teach him?"

Sure I believe in punishing a guilty child.
Now compare that wisdom to what that prick Yahweh did.
Instead of punishing the guilty, he punished his innocent child.

Why do you praise what you would not do yourself?

"That is supposed to show God as a loving, forgiving Father to His people."

All belied by his killing instead of curing all over the bible. You are rather selective in your reading habits.

"which say that our sins can only be forgiven us,"

I wrote this for Christian. If you happen to be one take it as is. If you are not, stop supporting immoral people.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:43 pm

Greatest I Am

Nice apology that shows that your assumption made an ass of you and you are doubling down on it.

What apology? Show me where I apologized.

Your post has way too much foolishness for me to deal with all of it so I will cherry pick.


Define what to you is foolishness because I see some of your own.

Aside from that, that is your perception. I can certainly understand your need to cherry pick. I suppose, like many, you also do that when you scan the bible (that is, if you do that) looking for what suits you on that particular day. Many people do that.


Tell us, when you see Christians, let's say Catholics, all putting their cash in a collection basket while knowing that some of it will go to pedophile victims and air fare to move those pedophiles to new hunting grounds, how do you pick out the good Christians?


I have not been to church for the longest time except for a funeral. You and I have something in common. We both hate pedophiles and want them put away.

I think that, for some reason, if you were to go to a church and saw the collection, this would probably come to your mind. I do not think that the majority of people would be thinking in those terms though. They would be supporting their church. It might be say for its physical upkeep and other sundry things.
But I can agree with you that it might be a good idea if more of them had that kind of awareness.


When some prick of a preacher is sermonizing about how women and gays are inferior with his homophobic and misogynous sermon, how do you pick out the good ones who disagree?

I have never heard a homily like this spoken. I did call a priest out once for saying that women who have abortions are all going to hell and I reported it. This was an exceptionally intelligent human being who taught at a university though he was an idiot. Our beliefs can do that to us. I have seen the faces of a number of women who just had abortions and they did the deed with many tears.


"We agree on the above but I was speaking of your judgment of all of the Christians, et cetera who do no harm and try to live a good life."

Supporting a homophobic and misogynous church is doing harm to those the church targets and if they are good people, as you say, they will leave that vile church.


As I said, I have never heard that but you can point me to where you have. If I had ever heard that, you can be sure that I would have made a big stink about it and I am sure many other members of that church would too.
I suppose that somewhere some antiquated priest/minister/church may be like that. That is a church, the doors of which, I would like to chain up.

"though Christ was the Son of God, he was equal in all ways. He took it upon himself to become human."

Supernaturally based idiocy that Constantine forced down Christianity's throat. Read your history.


...and you need to read my words. I told you that I do not believe this stuff anymore. Much of it is superstition and christian myth. I was explaining christian belief.

"What about the victims?"

Glad you asked. The victim has the right to forgive while god does not.


No one actually HAS to forgive. It is up to him or her. This is all christian belief. Sometimes it is conducive and healthy emotionally and spiritually for a person to forgive but only if he/she is honest about it and knows that the other party is sorry/remorseful. They can still forgive if the person is NOT sorry but it would be a good idea to cut him loose.

Perhaps the church taught forgiveness as a way for the people to also realize that God is capable of forgiveness. I wonder what kind of a world we would have if no one ever forgave anyone else. I wonder how long the human species would last.


Now compare that wisdom to what that prick Yahweh did.
Instead of punishing the guilty, he punished his innocent child.


Prick? lol You have a way of making God so real.
That is your perception. Let us say that you were to take this as a fairy tale, could you not come to try to understand what the Story is trying to convey, to dig a little deeper for its real meaning? You are incapable of seeing Christ as being equal with the father and coming to his own decision about this in this scenario.

Actually you do not really need to but if you are going to put your own spin on it, make it a more fair and balanced one.


"That is supposed to show God as a loving, forgiving Father to His people."

All belied by his killing instead of curing all over the bible. You are rather selective in your reading habits.


I do not ready the bible anymore. You keep thinking in human terms. I myself also could not think of giving up my children for the sake of the world.

I wrote this for Christian. If you happen to be one take it as is. If you are not, stop supporting immoral people.


Unfortunately, there was a time when many in the church, the hierarchy, did just that basically I think to preserve the church but also to protect their own which was absolutely immoral and vile. They did not see or even consider the victim and who would have even believed that such a thing could go on. Many people basically worshipped their priests, just second to their God. They were taught to do that by family and Church.

So you are speaking here of the christians who you believe support the pedophiles, et cetera, because they are still a part of the Church.
Are they supporting the pedophiles or are they simply supporting their Church, physical or otherwise, because of a sense of belonging to it and of needing it and their God. Those two thoughts can be mutually exclusive you know.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.


I do not believe in hell. That is a place to keep people "in tow". I do not believe in heaven.
I also cannot live Pascal's Wager. I am an agnostic. and what I cannot prove I will not believe.

I thought it was Jesus father who was evil and vile according to you ~~ not Jesus.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.


I can agree with this. On the other hand...

The church does not say that believers can abdicate their responsibility for wrongdoing and still go to heaven. You have it wrong there. That is being presumptuous and that is exactly what that sin is called...the sin of Presumption.
The Church says that a person has to be sorry and remorseful for the wrongdoing and to seek forgiveness and to vow not to commit the sin[s] again. No one gets to go to heaven just because they want to. God's love/mercy/forgiveness does not extend to those who do not want to reform and who continually break His laws. That is the church teaching.

I do not know where you get your information but you yourself do seem to do a lot of cherry picking. You need to take some time to doubt some of the things you believe about the church''s teachings. You are always throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Of course, having said all of that, and considering everything which has become known, it would appear to be more than a bit ludicrous to me to say what the church's teachings are. But that does not mean that everyone in the Church is immoral or vile. There are still a great many really good priests, et cetera, who do try to and do follow the teachings.

It may seem to be one big mess and I would say that it is by far a great thing that this mess has been revealed but one does not get rid of the messy waters by throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You yourself seem to be throwing a great deal of mud at this baby.


You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.


And what is that?

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.


No, I would not. But more to the point, I would give my life for my children with every fiber of my being in order to save them and if by chance I also did survive, there is no way in which I could ever see myself as being a scapegoat for having done that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.


Well, if I actually believed in the devil and demons, I might just question which one of us is actually doing that work.
Having a belief in them is just one more way in which to give up responsibility for the things which we do and the consequences which they create. The devil made me do it.

Regardé
arc
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:01 am

The current human world of sin and death is actually a re-enactment of the dream Christ experienced while dying upon the cross. If, of course, only consciousness in the form of persons exist, the Judeo-Christian God exists, the Judeo-Christian God is an infinite consciousness that is the external world, and if we are imaginary characters within the mind of God whom, it turns out, has a cosmic form of dissociative identity disorder in which 'he' transitions into Crucified Christ, who right now is dreaming the experiences we are now having.

Never mind the above.
J.Brewer
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Q: What lies beyond the "Matrix" that is consciousness?
A: The conscious and unconscious mind of God.


email me at: phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com
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Re: Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:49 pm

Too much anthropomorphism around here. Although it is human to have to name something in order to feel that it is known, Jesus is a force called Love, not a person to be accused of doing human things. God's plan as evidenced in Nature is creative evolution of organisms. In this sense God is an active force, not a personality; and, science and religion are not compelled to balk over such spurious terms as supernatural. God is the glue that binds organic and inorganic cycles and ecosystems together. This is the way of the natural world. Our morality belongs to the active recognition that we are an integral part of the systems by which Nature thrives. Atheists and agnostics are still compelled to recognize they are part of the larger whole of nature and are obligated to seeing that the future is physically viable, not a waste land killed by ravages of ego.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Ierrellus
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