On impossibility of God

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:55 pm

1) God has to be simple otherwise He is subjected to time
2) This, being subjected to time, is impossible though
3) God cannot be simple (God is love, God is Justice, etc.)
4) From (1), (2) and (3) we deduce that God is impossible

First, God is the following things: God is Love, God is Justice, etc. Love however is different from Justice therefore God cannot be simple. This justifies premise (3). This can be only resolved if God is subjected to time, sometimes Love, sometimes Justice, etc. So premise (1) is justified.

Second, God cannot be subjected to time since God has to either wait eternity to create the universe or He comes into existence at a given point. The first case is impossible. The second case also impossible, something cannot comes of out of nothing. So premise (2) is justified.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:45 am

Simple =
- Easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.
- Plain, basic, or uncomplicated in form, nature, or design; without much decoration or ornamentation.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/simple


Other than your argument P3, the default is God as understood with the conventional properties assigned to God, God is not a simple being.

In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[3] The concept of God, as described by theologians, commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence (all-present), and as having an eternal and necessary existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God


God is also known as the Absolute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)
Since God is Absolute, i.e. totally unconditional, God cannot be conditioned by time or any other conditions/variables. Thus your P1 and P2.

However I believe your conclusion is not complete,
Your conclusion should be;

God is impossible to be subjected to time.

Your argument would be better presented via this syllogism'

    P1 Absolute [theistic] meant totally unconditioned of any variable [e.g. time]
    P2 God is the Absolute
    C1 Therefore God is unconditioned by time.
    It is impossible for God to be conditioned by time.

There is nothing significant with the above.

What is significant is this point;

Is God a possibility to exists as real?

I have argued the point here
God is an Impossibilty to be real
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474&hilit=god+impossibility#p2683202
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:33 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Simple =
- Easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.
- Plain, basic, or uncomplicated in form, nature, or design; without much decoration or ornamentation.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/simple


Other than your argument P3, the default is God as understood with the conventional properties assigned to God, God is not a simple being.

In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[3] The concept of God, as described by theologians, commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence (all-present), and as having an eternal and necessary existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God


God is also known as the Absolute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)
Since God is Absolute, i.e. totally unconditional, God cannot be conditioned by time or any other conditions/variables. Thus your P1 and P2.

However I believe your conclusion is not complete,
Your conclusion should be;

God is impossible to be subjected to time.

No, premise (1) requires that God to be subject to time because He cannot be simple. He cannot be simple because He has to be love and Justice.

Prismatic567 wrote:Your argument would be better presented via this syllogism'

    P1 Absolute [theistic] meant totally unconditioned of any variable [e.g. time]
    P2 God is the Absolute
    C1 Therefore God is unconditioned by time.
    It is impossible for God to be conditioned by time.

You are basically trying to justify premise (2). I however argue in favor of premise (2).

Prismatic567 wrote:There is nothing significant with the above.

What is significant is this point;

Is God a possibility to exists as real?

I have argued the point here
God is an Impossibilty to be real
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474&hilit=god+impossibility#p2683202

I will look at your thread shortly.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:17 pm

bahman wrote:1) God has to be simple otherwise He is subjected to time
Are complicated things necessarily subject to time? Are there simple things that are not? Simple in what way.
2) This, being subjected to time, is impossible though
Why can't God evolve? Change over time, that is.
3) God cannot be simple (God is love, God is Justice, etc.)
Why can't God be simple? Are you saying that because people say God is different things, God can't be simple? Could't some of the definitions be wrong? Or couldn't being loving lead to just actions and attitudes. Is there a particular God you are saying is impossible`? Some versions of God are not just.
4) From (1), (2) and (3) we deduce that God is impossible
Possibly if one was working from a specific defintion of God.

First, God is the following things: God is Love, God is Justice, etc. Love however is different from Justice therefore God cannot be simple. This justifies premise (3). This can be only resolved if God is subjected to time, sometimes Love, sometimes Justice, etc. So premise (1) is justified.
Well, first there's the possibility that Loving and being just are facets of the same simple attitude.

Second, God cannot be subjected to time since God has to either wait eternity to create the universe or He comes into existence at a given point.
Why would God have to wait?
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2203
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:05 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
bahman wrote:1) God has to be simple otherwise He is subjected to time

Are complicated things necessarily subject to time?

Yes. Complicated things either move toward more complexity or simplicity depending on the mode of things.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Are there simple things that are not? Simple in what way.

I don't understand you. Could you please elaborate?

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
2)
This, being subjected to time, is impossible though

Why can't God evolve? Change over time, that is.

Evolve toward what? Knowing more? That is the attribute of creature.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
3) God cannot be simple (God is love, God is Justice, etc.)

Why can't God be simple?

Because God is love and justice. Basically these are definitions of God which are not equal because love and justice are different.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Are you saying that because people say God is different things, God can't be simple?

Yes.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Could't some of the definitions be wrong?

God at least is love and justice. He is also existence. There are other definitions too. A God who is love cannot be hate for example so we have to decide which one God is, good God or Evil God? Here as an example we are working with good God.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Or couldn't being loving lead to just actions and attitudes. Is there a particular God you are saying is impossible`? Some versions of God are not just.

There is problem if there are at least two definitions.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
4) From (1), (2) and (3) we deduce that God is impossible

Possibly if one was working from a specific defintion of God.

Pick up your definitions. The problem arises when there are at least two definitions for God.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
First, God is the following things: God is Love, God is Justice, etc. Love however is different from Justice therefore God cannot be simple. This justifies premise (3). This can be only resolved if God is subjected to time, sometimes Love, sometimes Justice, etc. So premise (1) is justified.

Well, first there's the possibility that Loving and being just are facets of the same simple attitude.

Then please show that love and justice are facets of the same simple attitude.


Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Second, God cannot be subjected to time since God has to either wait eternity to create the universe or He comes into existence at a given point.

Why would God have to wait?

Because by eternity we mean that God has existed in infinite past. Creation apparently is not eternal, it has a age. Therefore God has to wait eternity to create.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:45 am

bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Simple =
- Easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.
- Plain, basic, or uncomplicated in form, nature, or design; without much decoration or ornamentation.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/simple


Other than your argument P3, the default is God as understood with the conventional properties assigned to God, God is not a simple being.

In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[3] The concept of God, as described by theologians, commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence (all-present), and as having an eternal and necessary existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God


God is also known as the Absolute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)
Since God is Absolute, i.e. totally unconditional, God cannot be conditioned by time or any other conditions/variables. Thus your P1 and P2.

However I believe your conclusion is not complete,
Your conclusion should be;

God is impossible to be subjected to time.

No, premise (1) requires that God to be subject to time because He cannot be simple. He cannot be simple because He has to be love and Justice.

Prismatic567 wrote:Your argument would be better presented via this syllogism'

    P1 Absolute [theistic] meant totally unconditioned of any variable [e.g. time]
    P2 God is the Absolute
    C1 Therefore God is unconditioned by time.
    It is impossible for God to be conditioned by time.

You are basically trying to justify premise (2). I however argue in favor of premise (2).

My point is why beat around the bush with God is love, justice, thus not simple, thus not subjected to time.
To state God is love, justice is unconvincing when there is so much evil happening in God's presence, thus you are limited by the Problem of Evil Argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

I suggested it would be better for you to argue from the point is God is Absolute, omnipresent, omniscience, omnipotent, omni-timelessness, omni-whatever as in the syllogism I presented above.

Whilst what I suggested for you is a neater, better argument than your OP's, it will not go far against my own argument;
God is an impossibility to be real, linked above.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:My point is why beat around the bush with God is love, justice, thus not simple, thus not subjected to time.
To state God is love, justice is unconvincing when there is so much evil happening in God's presence, thus you are limited by the Problem of Evil Argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

I suggested it would be better for you to argue from the point is God is Absolute, omnipresent, omniscience, omnipotent, omni-timelessness, omni-whatever as in the syllogism I presented above.

Whilst what I suggested for you is a neater, better argument than your OP's, it will not go far against my own argument;
God is an impossibility to be real, linked above.

I understand your point. You showed that God cannot be subject to time. To show that God is an impossibility I need to show that God is subjected to time too. This leads to a contradiction, therefore God becomes an impossibility. I don't know another way to show that God is subjected to time.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:11 am

bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:My point is why beat around the bush with God is love, justice, thus not simple, thus not subjected to time.
To state God is love, justice is unconvincing when there is so much evil happening in God's presence, thus you are limited by the Problem of Evil Argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

I suggested it would be better for you to argue from the point is God is Absolute, omnipresent, omniscience, omnipotent, omni-timelessness, omni-whatever as in the syllogism I presented above.

Whilst what I suggested for you is a neater, better argument than your OP's, it will not go far against my own argument;
God is an impossibility to be real, linked above.

I understand your point. You showed that God cannot be subject to time.
To show that God is an impossibility I need to show that God is subjected to time too. This leads to a contradiction, therefore God becomes an impossibility.
I don't know another way to show that God is subjected to time.

I don't think your argument works.

You cannot simply conclude 'God is an impossibility' because "you" cannot show God is subjected to time.

In any case, you did not state 'God is an impossibility' in what sense?

Note God is a possibility in thought only, i.e. anyone can think 'God exists' which can affect them psychologically.
Islamic extremists think God exists, delivers holy texts that command them to kill non-believers to gain favor to enter heaven with eternal life and access to virgins. Other theists are affected psychologically merely based on thinking and believing God exists based on faith and without proofs.

So you must state the specific sense where God is an impossibility or possibility.

Note I have argued;

    1. God is possible within thoughts only.

    2. God is an impossible in the logical sense, God can only be possible within pseudo-rational thoughts.

    3. God is an impossibility to be in the real sense, e.g. within Science and empirical-rational perspective.

I don't think there are other perspectives to postulate God beside the above? Do you have any?

Nb: Definitely God cannot be impossible because you cannot justify God exists within time.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:18 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:My point is why beat around the bush with God is love, justice, thus not simple, thus not subjected to time.
To state God is love, justice is unconvincing when there is so much evil happening in God's presence, thus you are limited by the Problem of Evil Argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

I suggested it would be better for you to argue from the point is God is Absolute, omnipresent, omniscience, omnipotent, omni-timelessness, omni-whatever as in the syllogism I presented above.

Whilst what I suggested for you is a neater, better argument than your OP's, it will not go far against my own argument;
God is an impossibility to be real, linked above.

I understand your point. You showed that God cannot be subject to time.
To show that God is an impossibility I need to show that God is subjected to time too. This leads to a contradiction, therefore God becomes an impossibility.
I don't know another way to show that God is subjected to time.

I don't think your argument works.

You cannot simply conclude 'God is an impossibility' because "you" cannot show God is subjected to time.

In any case, you did not state 'God is an impossibility' in what sense?

Note God is a possibility in thought only, i.e. anyone can think 'God exists' which can affect them psychologically.
Islamic extremists think God exists, delivers holy texts that command them to kill non-believers to gain favor to enter heaven with eternal life and access to virgins. Other theists are affected psychologically merely based on thinking and believing God exists based on faith and without proofs.

So you must state the specific sense where God is an impossibility or possibility.

Note I have argued;

    1. God is possible within thoughts only.

    2. God is an impossible in the logical sense, God can only be possible within pseudo-rational thoughts.

    3. God is an impossibility to be in the real sense, e.g. within Science and empirical-rational perspective.

I don't think there are other perspectives to postulate God beside the above? Do you have any?

Nb: Definitely God cannot be impossible because you cannot justify God exists within time.

I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:14 am

bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote: I understand your point. You showed that God cannot be subject to time.
To show that God is an impossibility I need to show that God is subjected to time too. This leads to a contradiction, therefore God becomes an impossibility.
I don't know another way to show that God is subjected to time.

I don't think your argument works.

You cannot simply conclude 'God is an impossibility' because "you" cannot show God is subjected to time.

In any case, you did not state 'God is an impossibility' in what sense?

Note God is a possibility in thought only, i.e. anyone can think 'God exists' which can affect them psychologically.
Islamic extremists think God exists, delivers holy texts that command them to kill non-believers to gain favor to enter heaven with eternal life and access to virgins. Other theists are affected psychologically merely based on thinking and believing God exists based on faith and without proofs.

So you must state the specific sense where God is an impossibility or possibility.

Note I have argued;

    1. God is possible within thoughts only.

    2. God is an impossible in the logical sense, God can only be possible within pseudo-rational thoughts.

    3. God is an impossibility to be in the real sense, e.g. within Science and empirical-rational perspective.

I don't think there are other perspectives to postulate God beside the above? Do you have any?

Nb: Definitely God cannot be impossible because you cannot justify God exists within time.

I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.

Isn't this p and not-p an obvious contradiction, thus an impossibility, i.e.
IF a contradition, obviously an impossibility.

The most effective argument is;
God is an impossibility to be real.

When it is rationalized philosophically God is impossible to be real, then any question of 'God exists as real' is moot, i.e. a non-starter.

Thus the only avenue for God to exists is only in thought [mind] and this is driven by a psychological impulses originating from an existential crisis.

This is why non-theistic Buddhism [and other non-theistic secular approaches] focuses on the mind and psychological to deal directly with the specific existential crisis and side-step the never-ending, unresolvable, & certain-potentially-evil-laden issue of God exists.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:I don't think your argument works.

You cannot simply conclude 'God is an impossibility' because "you" cannot show God is subjected to time.

In any case, you did not state 'God is an impossibility' in what sense?

Note God is a possibility in thought only, i.e. anyone can think 'God exists' which can affect them psychologically.
Islamic extremists think God exists, delivers holy texts that command them to kill non-believers to gain favor to enter heaven with eternal life and access to virgins. Other theists are affected psychologically merely based on thinking and believing God exists based on faith and without proofs.

So you must state the specific sense where God is an impossibility or possibility.

Note I have argued;

    1. God is possible within thoughts only.

    2. God is an impossible in the logical sense, God can only be possible within pseudo-rational thoughts.

    3. God is an impossibility to be in the real sense, e.g. within Science and empirical-rational perspective.

I don't think there are other perspectives to postulate God beside the above? Do you have any?

Nb: Definitely God cannot be impossible because you cannot justify God exists within time.

I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.

Isn't this p and not-p an obvious contradiction, thus an impossibility, i.e.
IF a contradition, obviously an impossibility.

The most effective argument is;
God is an impossibility to be real.

When it is rationalized philosophically God is impossible to be real, then any question of 'God exists as real' is moot, i.e. a non-starter.

Thus the only avenue for God to exists is only in thought [mind] and this is driven by a psychological impulses originating from an existential crisis.

This is why non-theistic Buddhism [and other non-theistic secular approaches] focuses on the mind and psychological to deal directly with the specific existential crisis and side-step the never-ending, unresolvable, & certain-potentially-evil-laden issue of God exists.

Yes, the argument is about showing that God is an impossibility to be real.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:14 am

bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote:I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.

Isn't this p and not-p an obvious contradiction, thus an impossibility, i.e.
IF a contradition, obviously an impossibility.

The most effective argument is;
God is an impossibility to be real.

When it is rationalized philosophically God is impossible to be real, then any question of 'God exists as real' is moot, i.e. a non-starter.

Thus the only avenue for God to exists is only in thought [mind] and this is driven by a psychological impulses originating from an existential crisis.

This is why non-theistic Buddhism [and other non-theistic secular approaches] focuses on the mind and psychological to deal directly with the specific existential crisis and side-step the never-ending, unresolvable, & certain-potentially-evil-laden issue of God exists.

Yes, the argument is about showing that God is an impossibility to be real.

Yes, "real" is the most realistic qualification.

ALL if not most theists believe God to be real to the extent of sending his messages and commands via messengers and prophets, listening & answering the prayers of believers, created the Universe, etc.

Even pantheists believe God to be real in one sense but is indifferent to the world in another.

It is insignificant and not critical to prove God is an impossibility to be a false, fiction, imagination, and anything else unreal.
Surely no theists would want to believe in a God that is unreal??

Therefore the explicit and implicit qualification for any God [believed by any theist] is that it must be a real God.
As a counter I have proven 'God is an Impossibility to be Real.'

Since God is an impossibility to be real, the question of a real God is a moot, i.e. a non-starter.

However, one can still think of an unreal God for various reasons, especially for psychological reasons to deal with an inherent existential crisis, where it really works to relieve existential angst subliminally.

My point is, where theists believe in a God they have to understand they believe for its psychological reasons & benefits and they cannot insist such a God is real in a realistic sense.

The already proven dangers of believing 'the theistic God is real' is when such a real God is believed to deliver commands to believers to kill non-believers as a divine duty and carry out other evil acts against non-believers.

If God is understood to be only a thought and not real, but only to relieve an inherent unavoidable existential crisis psychologically, then a belief in God will be confined to be personal and private.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Exuberant Teleportation » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:13 pm

Figuring out why God is here is one of those great fissures into the unknown books and outlines of an invisible existence. We have yet to penetrate or unravel why such intelligence exited its old dream trance oblivion, and took over our worldly precipice. Does ultimate control cheapen the imagination? It could, because just having hands over the world may make fiction too weak of a force. If we just go to books, and believe that's real, does that make it more influential than if you know too much about what's possible and impossible like God does? And could we even handle knowing everything for that matter? Such ventures may be too extraordinary to capture.
RaptorWizard ~ The Gale Force Tyranny Cosmos viewtopic.php?f=10&t=195061
Secret Garden viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194124
Buddha Unleashed viewtopic.php?f=25&t=195208
Nihilus Harnesses Yoda Wisdom viewtopic.php?f=5&t=195214
Kazaam viewtopic.php?f=5&t=195203
I'm Lugia Prototype XD001 in Pokemon XD Gale of Darkness (Ultimate Weapon, Final Annihilator), the Star Forge Lugia firing AeroBlasts, surging with SuperHolographic Propylon antechamber Polarities, and the SuperUnknown mysteries of the Ruins of Alph in Pokemon Crystal. Wartortle wisdom with age turns Me from fool Meganium, to wise Lugia. Banette ghost doll makes Me Red with Pikachu, Sabrina. Saddle shaped cosmos grows 4ever Infin Champion with Red (Raptors (Red/Eagun) + Warriors (Gold/Infin). Existence is entirely Imaginary, and will never stop expanding and improving!
User avatar
Exuberant Teleportation
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:34 pm
Location: Caterpie Clair Clarity Anakin

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:55 am

Exuberant Teleportation wrote:Figuring out why God is here is one of those great fissures into the unknown books and outlines of an invisible existence. We have yet to penetrate or unravel why such intelligence exited its old dream trance oblivion, and took over our worldly precipice. Does ultimate control cheapen the imagination? It could, because just having hands over the world may make fiction too weak of a force. If we just go to books, and believe that's real, does that make it more influential than if you know too much about what's possible and impossible like God does? And could we even handle knowing everything for that matter? Such ventures may be too extraordinary to capture.

We can do away with the question of God totally when we can understand and psychologically accept 'God is an impossibility to to real' as in this thread
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474

Think about it?
What has theists at present to lose if they give up their belief in the idea of God?
I do not anticipate anything serious will happen to the world but for the individual theists there would be a very high psychological stake if they were to just give up a belief in God. Theists will feel psychologically shaken if they give up God.

Theists argued the moral foundation of humanity will break down if there are no theistic beliefs.
Nope, all human beings has an inherent faculty of morality and conscience and without theism this potential will unfold spontaneously and expeditiously. Note secular morality has abolish chattel slavery legally while SOME theistic holy texts are still stuck with immutable verses that condone slavery, caste system, etc.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby felix dakat » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:48 pm

The OP proposition strikes me as literal nonsense of the absolutist variety. God is defined to the satisfaction of the definer who then concludes that his own chosen definition is an impossibility. Wouldn't intellectual humility rather lead one to consider the possibility that one's definition is in error?
I'm using the term "nonsense" literally. Why not ask the question: Is there a possible experience which would justify believing in God? From the standpoint of empiricism one could then estimate the probability of such experience. But I don't see how one can claim with certitude that such experience is impossible.

User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 8229
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: east of eden

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:56 pm

felix dakat wrote:The OP proposition strikes me as literal nonsense of the absolutist variety. God is defined to the satisfaction of the definer who then concludes that his own chosen definition is an impossibility.

It is the conflict in the definitions which give rise to an impossibility.

felix dakat wrote:Wouldn't intellectual humility rather lead one to consider the possibility that one's definition is in error?

Which definition is wrong? What is your definition of God?

felix dakat wrote:I'm using the term "nonsense" literally. Why not ask the question: Is there a possible experience which would justify believing in God?

Experience? Any supernatural evil being can claim that s/he is God. What is the truth?

felix dakat wrote: From the standpoint of empiricism one could then estimate the probability of such experience. But I don't see how one can claim with certitude that such experience is impossible.

I didn't say that experience of supernatural beings is impossible.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby felix dakat » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:20 am

bahman wrote:Which definition is wrong? What is your definition of God?


As I stated above, I am going by the OP. There I understand you to define God in terms of simplicity and non-subjection to time.

bahman wrote: Experience? Any supernatural evil being can claim that s/he is God. What is the truth?


And how do you KNOW with certitude that what you experience is NOT God?

User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 8229
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: east of eden

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:42 am

bahman wrote: I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.
If our sense of what is a paradox holds at all levels and all possibilities. Once we would have said that being a wave or a particle were mutually exclusive states of being. That something could not both act as a wave and as a particle at the same time. Deduction eliminated this possibility. Yet, now it seems to be the case.

Particles in superposition both exist and do not exist. They sort of exist in potential. Again, deduction might have said this was not possible, but now it is pretty much accepted in physics models.

Our deductions are always dependent on our metaphysics. What seems obvious may not be.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2203
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:32 pm

felix dakat wrote:
bahman wrote:Which definition is wrong? What is your definition of God?

As I stated above, I am going by the OP. There I understand you to define God in terms of simplicity and non-subjection to time.

God is defined as love and justice too. This make this is against simplicity of God unless you show that love and justice are similar.

felix dakat wrote:
bahman wrote:Experience? Any supernatural evil being can claim that s/he is God. What is the truth?


And how do you KNOW with certitude that what you experience is NOT God?

I asked "what is the truth?".
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
bahman wrote: I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.

If our sense of what is a paradox holds at all levels and all possibilities. Once we would have said that being a wave or a particle were mutually exclusive states of being. That something could not both act as a wave and as a particle at the same time. Deduction eliminated this possibility. Yet, now it seems to be the case.

Particles in superposition both exist and do not exist. They sort of exist in potential. Again, deduction might have said this was not possible, but now it is pretty much accepted in physics models.

Our deductions are always dependent on our metaphysics. What seems obvious may not be.

I don't think that we could call a quantum particle as simple.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby felix dakat » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:51 pm

bahman wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
bahman wrote:Which definition is wrong? What is your definition of God?

As I stated above, I am going by the OP. There I understand you to define God in terms of simplicity and non-subjection to time.

God is defined as love and justice too. This make this is against simplicity of God unless you show that love and justice are similar.

felix dakat wrote:
bahman wrote:Experience? Any supernatural evil being can claim that s/he is God. What is the truth?


And how do you KNOW with certitude that what you experience is NOT God?

I asked "what is the truth?".

If every element in the universe came from the singularity of the big bang, why can't Love & Justice come from the simplicity that is God? Alternatively, apart from the fact that the simplicity of God is part of the traditional orthodox definition, why must God be simple?
On your question, "what is the truth?", from the probability that we don't know the answer with certitude, it doesn't follow that there isn't one or that such cannot be experienced.

User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 8229
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: east of eden

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:29 pm

felix dakat wrote:
bahman wrote:
felix dakat wrote:As I stated above, I am going by the OP. There I understand you to define God in terms of simplicity and non-subjection to time.

God is defined as love and justice too. This is against simplicity of God unless you show that love and justice are similar.

felix dakat wrote:And how do you KNOW with certitude that what you experience is NOT God?

I asked "what is the truth?".

If every element in the universe came from the singularity of the big bang, why can't Love & Justice come from the simplicity that is God?


Because Love and Justice are different yet each being God.

felix dakat wrote:Alternatively, apart from the fact that the simplicity of God is part of the traditional orthodox definition, why must God be simple?

Here there is an argument in favor of that: http://www.saintaquinas.com/article5.html

felix dakat wrote:On your question, "what is the truth?", from the probability that we don't know the answer with certitude, it doesn't follow that there isn't one or that such cannot be experienced.

Yes, we cannot know.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:05 am

bahman wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
bahman wrote: I can show that God is an impossibility if He has to be subjected to time and cannot be subject to time at the same time.

If our sense of what is a paradox holds at all levels and all possibilities. Once we would have said that being a wave or a particle were mutually exclusive states of being. That something could not both act as a wave and as a particle at the same time. Deduction eliminated this possibility. Yet, now it seems to be the case.

Particles in superposition both exist and do not exist. They sort of exist in potential. Again, deduction might have said this was not possible, but now it is pretty much accepted in physics models.

Our deductions are always dependent on our metaphysics. What seems obvious may not be.

I don't think that we could call a quantum particle as simple.
Then nothing is simple. The word has no meaning.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2203
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:49 am

bahman wrote: Yes. Complicated things either move toward more complexity or simplicity depending on the mode of things.
Or perhaps some complicted things do not move towards more complexity or simplicity. CAn you demonstrate that this must be the case.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
2)
This, being subjected to time, is impossible though

Why can't God evolve? Change over time, that is.

Evolve toward what? Knowing more? That is the attribute of creature.
Sure, knowing more. The Abrahamic religions have God as the perfect unevolving something. Perhaps they are wrong. Perhaps God evolves.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
3) God cannot be simple (God is love, God is Justice, etc.)

Why can't God be simple?

Because God is love and justice. Basically these are definitions of God which are not equal because love and justice are different.
You mean because humans use inexact terms in language there could not possibly be a God where it would be useful to use those terms?

Are you saying, for example, you would never refer to another person as both just and loving because they cannot be both all the time? Are you saying something does not exist because our words are not perfect?

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Are you saying that because people say God is different things, God can't be simple?

Yes.
So if people start saying contradictory things about you will that make you no longer having existed?

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Could't some of the definitions be wrong?

God at least is love and justice. He is also existence. There are other definitions too. A God who is love cannot be hate for example so we have to decide which one God is, good God or Evil God? Here as an example we are working with good God.
It seems to me all you are demonstrating is some the problems of describing things. Still, even the inexact descriptions of things can be useful, and even convey core truths.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Or couldn't being loving lead to just actions and attitudes. Is there a particular God you are saying is impossible`? Some versions of God are not just.

There is problem if there are at least two definitions.
That's true for a lot of things we know exist.


Karpel Tunnel wrote:
First, God is the following things: God is Love, God is Justice, etc. Love however is different from Justice therefore God cannot be simple. This justifies premise (3). This can be only resolved if God is subjected to time, sometimes Love, sometimes Justice, etc. So premise (1) is justified.

Well, first there's the possibility that Loving and being just are facets of the same simple attitude.

Then please show that love and justice are facets of the same simple attitude.
If you are loving you want to treat those you love justly.


Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Second, God cannot be subjected to time since God has to either wait eternity to create the universe or He comes into existence at a given point.

Why would God have to wait?

Because by eternity we mean that God has existed in infinite past. Creation apparently is not eternal, it has a age. Therefore God has to wait eternity to create.[/quote]We don't know if creation is eternal or not. It could be eternal forward in time. What if God is not bound by time? What if we are trying to describe things above our pay grade. Like a dog licking the reviever of a phone upon hearing his owners voice through it. He's right, it is his owner speaking. But he is not completely right.

It seems to me many of the issues you raise have the same problems when describing things we know are real. Like the personality of someone we love. Perception. The external world. Time. We try to explain these things and we get into imperfections and problems. Language and perception are problematic. I will never adequately be able to put my wife into words. Yet, she exists. And in many ways I do know her and my descriptions are helpful. Perhaps her mother knows her also, b ut her descriptions are not useful. They confuse others when those people meet my wife or do not help them understand her reactions and motives. Her mother has poorer descritpions, but mine are not perfect, they are just useful and in some core way correct. Even if one went through them carefully one would find contradictions and confusions.

It seems to me your critique works well as a general indictment of language, but it is a poor approach to disproving God or even discproving that some people have useful ways of describing, thinking about and relating to God.

And also there is a heavy use of the Abrahamic God.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2203
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: On impossibility of God

Postby bahman » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
bahman wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If our sense of what is a paradox holds at all levels and all possibilities. Once we would have said that being a wave or a particle were mutually exclusive states of being. That something could not both act as a wave and as a particle at the same time. Deduction eliminated this possibility. Yet, now it seems to be the case.

Particles in superposition both exist and do not exist. They sort of exist in potential. Again, deduction might have said this was not possible, but now it is pretty much accepted in physics models.

Our deductions are always dependent on our metaphysics. What seems obvious may not be.

I don't think that we could call a quantum particle as simple.

Then nothing is simple. The word has no meaning.

No, a thing which has only a property/definition can exist.
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
User avatar
bahman
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:23 pm

Next

Return to Religion and Spirituality



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users