Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?

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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:59 pm

Greatest I Am,
“As for choosing the stuffed animal, how many times and on how many children was this done? How do we really know why the child chose one over the other?”
I do realize that the above is not what the thread is about.”

No sweat buddy.
I recognize my bias. I would not insult you with a list of links or a read this or that book response.

:evilfun:
Why would I take that as an insult? The question was more or less rhetorical.

I have been looking about for many years.

What does this mean ~~ that you have been observing many things?

I just hope our biases are not too far apart and one of us learns something from the exchange.


Well, I would hope that both of us would learn something from the exchange.
But who is the "one of us" who you were referring to? Hmmm? :P

I think that a pleasure and hope one of us gets it.

I did not at first understand the above. I would have emphasized "that".
I sense that we do think along the same lines. There is that "one of us" again.
How would you define the "it" which you are referring to?

Gnostic Christians are naturalists; that is a part of our ideology. We recognize ourselves and all humans as the top of the line that nature has yet to best.

As in the below:

In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)

I suppose that I might then also call myself a naturalist.
But all humans, Greatest I Am? Some humans, as far as I am concerned, are way below the animals in the food chain.
But what about a beautiful dolphin, an elephant, a wolf?

You might have heard of the Cathar Parfait.

No, never heard of them. I am not that knowledgeable. But i just looked them up.
So you obviously are not a cather which can be seen by your own writings.

“Like baby animals? How old are you saying that we are in the above case? Are we really thinking in terms of morality or in terms of what our needs are?”

We are baby animals, so yes, like baby animals.

I guess that old here would be about 12ish as the age of reason pops out about then. Males and females vary as well.


Why would you hold it to be as late as 12 years of age? But individually speaking, it may vary a little. I might think that it would have to based on the child's maturity level, historical background, brain patterns, lol, et cetera.

What Is the ‘Age of Reason?’
Around the age of seven, give or take a year, children enter a developmental phase known as the age of reason. “The age of reason refers to the developmental cognitive, emotional, and moral stage in which children become more capable of rational thought, have internalized a conscience, and have better capacity to control impulses (than in previous stages),” explains Dana Dorfman, PhD, psychotherapist, and co-host of the podcast 2 Moms on the Couch.

It’s the time when a child starts to truly grasp the difference between right and wrong, and begins to realize that other people have their own feelings that might not match his or hers.
https://www.scholastic.com/parents/fami ... eason.html


I like to use immunity to the Princess Alice syndrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWx_uVDh4Cw


That was a cute little video with the children but they are just children albeit we both know that many adults would act in that way even though not believing that Alice was there.

Insofar as the PAS, in other words, it does not matter who may be watching. You will always act in the same way ~~ ethically? Of course, what he says is true. There are individuals who, if they could get away with something, like robbing a bank and no one would know it, they would do it. There are also those who never would.

There are those who believe in an omniscient God and who believe in hell and still act immorally.
There are those who do not believe in a God or do question one's existence and still would not act immorally, unethically or without integrity.
It all comes down to an individual's human factor, one's values, and one's sense and knowledge of Self.

I think that we need more than to just purge the world of evil by doing good, though that does help of course. I think that that can be kind of a meaningless automatic response in many people because it is something that is expected of them either from others or by a God. I also think that it is really, really important to know ourselves, to see our dark side and what it makes us capable of doing as humans and to reflect on that.

“Think before you act. "To do no harm".

Knowing that we will all do harm, I prefer Try to mitigate the harm you will do.

We will not do harm in all circumstances. I think that weighing the pros and cons before one acts works too. I try to be a benign consequentialist :lol: although we cannot foresee everything.

I am a contrary sod. Apologies. ;-)

Why are you apologizing? Have you done something to hurt me?
I myself rather enjoy my own contrariness when it is real.
Which kind are you?

“So it can simply be about ignoring the person which says that he is not important enough to be bothered about. Which actually can be a wise thing to do. Lol”

I don’t know. I try not to sink too much into psychobabble stuff. That is as bad as the supernatural.


Really? You mean to say that you do not like to discover what makes people tick?
How is trying to understand the human mind the same as believing in the supernatural?
What about seeing another way of looking at something?
I am French and would think more like, did something just touch me, and was that you, Troue de Q, as the eyes dare the Tabarnac to do it again.

You are French. From France, Canada...
Can you explain what you meant by the above. It did sound interesting.

"Did something just touch me..." That vaguely reminds me of something. Oh, I think it was Christ who said it to the woman in the bible who touched the hem of his garment.
But again, please explain what that means.

Jesus was a runner,

Are you speaking metaphorically here? I am sure that in all of his 33 years he had some occasions in which to run possibly from those who at times wanted to stone him.
But what are YOU saying here?

but also had a temper.

Why not as there was supposedly that human side. But the question is what did he choose to do with that temper.

He was married. :o

It always makes me smile when I see this or someone says it. I do hope that you were being facetious?
Thinking practically, how much sense would it have made to tie himself down like that. Did not the Son of God have a mission to fulfill? Why would he tie himself down to a family? No logic in that. Celibacy can be a great thing under certain circumstances. It allows a person to use his sexual energy to belong to the world, to give his heart all inclusively to the world, not to a woman and children, (which would have probably been a hindrance to him) and to live in a sense within his own spiritual seclusion (for lack of a better way to express it).

I hate how the quote format work for my own failings. Apologies for this lay out.

Hakuna Matata. I actually thought that your layout was clear as opposed to mine sometimes which are not.
You type with only two fingers?!

Regards to you too.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:44 pm

Arcturus Descending

"So you obviously are not a Cathar which can be seen by your own writings."

True that I am not Cathar, given that I think there is only a church in France that carries on the Cathar traditions.
I am a Canadian and France is far away.

Explain further please on your critique of what I wright.

"You mean to say that you do not like to discover what makes people tick?"

Actually, I do, but we find that out more from looking at ourselves more than in others.

"What does this mean ~~ that you have been observing many things?"

That is a self-explaining statement.

"But what about a beautiful dolphin, an elephant, a wolf?"

Beautiful, yes. Not at our higher level.
Would you hit a human instead of a wolf with your car?
I doubt it.

"Why would you hold it to be as late as 12 years of age?"

Experience and observation as well as having the Princess Alice experiment. Did you note the age of those kids?

You are right though that there is a huge difference in some cases. Just look at the supernatural believing brain dead theists.

"I think that we need more than to just purge the world of evil by doing good, though that does help of course. I think that that can be kind of a meaningless automatic response in many people because it is something that is expected of them either from others or by a God. I also think that it is really, really important to know ourselves, to see our dark side and what it makes us capable of doing as humans and to reflect on that. "

How can I say this?

I like the spirit of your thinking, of course, but disagree with the letter of such a law. If I can put it this way.

All human to human evil is created by us when we compete. That is when a loser will think evil has befallen him.
When we cooperate, that is the good part of evolution.

The point is, to not go extinct, we must do some evil to each other. In this sense, evil is just a small part of the greater good of our evolution. We are all sinners, and to my way of thinking, this is a good thing.

Christians may be thinking the same way when they sing their hymn that calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

God aside, given that there is likely no god, nature would also call Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to it's plan of keeping us from extinction. Not that she has a plan. We do. Live.

"How is trying to understand the human mind the same as believing in the supernatural?"

All said of both realms, is speculative and mostly improvable and is this speculative nonsense till we find ways to prove the speculations.

"Can you explain what you meant by the above. It did sound interesting."

I just mean that I do not insult him by turning the other cheek and I do not mind teaching someone manners with my fist if that he wants to play.

Canadians are nice people, but we are nice because we know what happens when we are not. We are likely to be in a fist fight.

"Are you speaking metaphorically here? I am sure that in all of his 33 years he had some occasions in which to run possibly from those who at times wanted to stone him.
But what are YOU saying here?"

The same basic thing you said. That is partly why I do not care about the opinions of others. Even if I sugar coat everything, like Jesus, I will be hated.

"But the question is what did he choose to do with that temper."

Back then, not much except in one or two instances. His temple fit comes to mind. In the future, he is shown to be ready to murder all who do not choose him when he comes back.

"It always makes me smile when I see this or someone says it. I do hope that you were being facetious?"

No. Historic. Rabbis were expected to be family men. Quite a few experts are on board with that just from scriptures, and when you work in the Nag Hamadi Gnostic scriptures find, it is basically confirmed. Know that I don't care one way or the other as it is all myth to me. I am just going by the Jewish tradition.

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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:48 pm

Greatest I Am,
I am a Canadian and France is far away.

French blood or simply born in Montreal, Quebec wherever?
Not to derail this thread but a French Canadian was my very first boyfriend. We met at the Falls in Niagara Falls. He was gorgeous! Blond hair, blue eyes and high cheekbones. I loved his accent. :lol: Okay.

Explain further please on your critique of what I right.

I thought that I had been doing just that and will continue to. Is this not, in essence, what we do when we respond to someone's post. If not, can you elaborate a bit.

"You mean to say that you do not like to discover what makes people tick?"

Actually, I do, but we find that out more from looking at ourselves more than in others.

Well, I am glad to hear that.
Perhaps that would depend on the individual him/her ~ self but I think that it works both ways. If one is generally open and honest with and about one's self and wants to evolve, one can also look at another and see their own faults in that person. That person is like a mirror to them.
But what you are saying is also true. We also find out about who we are by looking into ourselves especially when we question" "Why did I do such a thing?" "Why did I say such a thing" without judgment or guilt.

"But what about a beautiful dolphin, an elephant, a wolf?"

Beautiful, yes. Not at our higher level.


Well, that would depend on the individual being discussed. I am sorry to say that there are times when I love animals above some humans. An octopus has more awareness than some humans do.

Would you hit a human instead of a wolf with your car?
I doubt it.

That would depend on the human. if he was out to kill me, I might have to.
But otherwise, I would not wish to harm either. I would do my best to avoid both. I love wolves~ I have two of them hanging on my living room wall ~ pictures I mean lol ~ and if I had to make the decision to kill him, I would cry some bitter tears over him telling him how sorry I was and it would haunt me for some time...

"Why would you hold it to be as late as 12 years of age?"

Experience and observation as well as having the Princess Alice experiment. Did you note the age of those kids?

I backpedaled to it. Those children were not 12 years old. I doubt if they were beyond second grade level ~ perhaps around eight or nine years old.

....Just look at the supernatural believing brain dead theists.


Brain dead?!

Francis Collins - One of the preeminent geneticists in the world, Francis Collins helped complete a groundbreaking research into human DNA and gene sequences as a leader of the Human Genome Project. ..

JOHANNES KEPLER
For Johannes Kepler, belief in a brilliant creator—who ultimately wanted his creation to be further discovered—was a motivating factor in his work developing ideas about the laws of planetary motion....

GALILEO The life and work of Galileo Galilei were marked by an ironic conflict: Despite being a devout Christian believer, he was persecuted by the Church for his revolutionary work as a scientist....

LISE MEITNER
Part of the team that discovered nuclear fission (for which her partner, Otto Hahn, won a Nobel Prize), Meitner was born into a Jewish family in Vienna, but later converted to Christianity.

SIR FRANCIS BACON Known for establishing and popularizing the scientific method, he was the first scientists to be knighted. He viewed science as a way to learn deeper truths about God, arguing that “a little philosophy inclines man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy brings men’s minds about to religion.”

Isaac Newton Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done,” he said. Newton was interested in theology, trying to explain some aspects of biblical history in works like An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture.

STANLEY JAKI
A Benedictine priest and a distinguished physicist, Jaki spent his life at the forefront of orchestrating a friendly relationship between science and religion, penning more than two dozen books on the subject.

ANDREW PINSENT
A triple threat if ever there was one, Father Pinsent is a Catholic priest, a Research Fellow at Harris Manchester College and the Research Director of Oxford’s Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion. Some of his earlier work (about 31 volumes which he co-authored) contributed to the creation of the Large Electron-Positron Collider at CERN....

https://relevantmagazine.com/god/9-grou ... hristians/

https://www.famousscientists.org/25-fam ... ed-in-god/

Now, do you recognize bias there or are you automatically correct that these scientists are brain dead despite their brilliance and achievements? What would Mr. Spock say to this?
I do recall you saying that you recognize or see your biases.
When you say things like "brain dead" are you just being flip or do you really literally mean it?

AD: "I think that we need more than to just purge the world of evil by doing good, though that does help of course. I think that that can be kind of a meaningless automatic response in many people because it is something that is expected of them either from others or by a God. I also think that it is really, really important to know ourselves, to see our dark side and what it makes us capable of doing as humans and to reflect on that. "

GIA: How can I say this?

I like the spirit of your thinking, of course, but disagree with the letter of such a law. If I can put it this way.

There was no letter of the law there. It was just my own subjective thinking that I do believe holds water.

All human to human evil is created by us when we compete. That is when a loser will think evil has befallen him.
When we cooperate, that is the good part of evolution.

I think that that is being a bit too stringent and all-encompassing but perhaps you did not mean it to be that way. I can definitely agree with you about your last thought though. Basically though I think that it depends on the type of individuals who are competing. Competition allows us to find out/know who we are, what we are capable of, helps us to grow and to mature and to achieve.

The point is, to not go extinct, we must do some evil to each other.


...like the bombing of innocent children and adults of Nagasaki and Hiroshima? That kind of evil?

..like the extermination of 6,000,000 Jews during the holocaust?

...like the 1971 Bangladesh genocide where three million people were killed?

...like the The Rwandan Genocide (1994) by their own people with machetes.
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Sure, doing evil to one another really perpetuates the human race!!!!

In this sense, evil is just a small part of the greater good of our evolution.

I wonder just how small a part. We would really have to go back in time and collect all of history and forward to this time. But a small part? I do not know about that.
How does the above contribute to our greater evolution, Greatest I Am?

We are all sinners, and to my way of thinking, this is a good thing.

Can you elaborate on that? When and how can it be a good thing?

Christians may be thinking the same way when they sing their hymn that calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

I do not recall that song. What is the name of it?

God aside, given that there is likely no god, nature would also call Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to it's plan of keeping us from extinction.

What sin would that be and how would it help us to avoid extinction?

Not that she has a plan. We do. Live.

She being nature? Do we have a plan? It seems to me that it is based on chaos and randomness.
If our plan is to live, why do we destroy so many lives, including our own?

"Can you explain what you meant by the above. It did sound interesting."

I just mean that I do not insult him by turning the other cheek and I do not mind teaching someone manners with my fist if that he wants to play.

Worf, is that you? :P So what you seem to be saying here is that you would be respecting him.

Canadians are nice people, but we are nice because we know what happens when we are not. We are likely to be in a fist fight.

I would call that exercising restraint ~ not necessarily being "nice".

"
Are you speaking metaphorically here? I am sure that in all of his 33 years he had some occasions in which to run possibly from those who at times wanted to stone him.
But what are YOU saying here?"

The same basic thing you said. That is partly why I do not care about the opinions of others. Even if I sugar coat everything, like Jesus, I will be hated.

I do not hate you.
Aside from others, do you ever listen to others' opinions, are you open to them or do you simply stay within that "box" of yours which you spoke about?

"But the question is what did he choose to do with that temper."

Back then, not much except in one or two instances. His temple fit comes to mind. .

It is possible that there were more than two instances. He was after all 33 years old. Being human, might he not have acted on his temper say to save some woman or child from being used or abused, et cetera. He was human. You would do the same, would you not?

In the future, he is shown to be ready to murder all who do not choose him when he comes back

So the Son of God is a combination of Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini and others...
Something just does not jive here. LOL

"It always makes me smile when I see this or someone says it. I do hope that you were being facetious?"

No. Historic. Rabbis were expected to be family men. Quite a few experts are on board with that just from scriptures, and when you work in the Nag Hamadi Gnostic scriptures find, it is basically confirmed. Know that I don't care one way or the other as it is all myth to me. I am just going by the Jewish tradition.

Well, it is all myth to me too though perhaps historically speaking, there was someone who that myth was based on just as perhaps there was someone who King Arthur is based on.

Regards to you too, Greatest I Am.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Arcturus Descending

"French blood or simply born in Montreal, Quebec wherever?"

Pure French blood but born in Northern Ontario. I am linguistically more Franglais than Français.

"I loved his accent."

Especially in the bedroom I hope. That is where my French really comes out.
Kidding. Lets not go there.

"Brain dead?! "

Yes. I could have said partially perhaps.

How a bout a dead spot.

Regardless I have the mindset expressed in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6Mr ... re=related

" Competition allows us to find out/know who we are, what we are capable of, helps us to grow and to mature and to achieve. "

True, but the winner will feel good about his win while the loser will feel evil has befallen him by comparison.

"Sure, doing evil to one another really perpetuates the human race!!!!"

Yes. Have you noted our species growing while others shrink?

In fact, we grow to the point where evolutionists think we are going too far in being good to each other as we are ignoring what we are doing to our eco system that is now in a major extinction event that could include us.

"How does the above contribute to our greater evolution, Greatest I Am?"

As I said above, we are growing in numbers compared to the other species.

"
We are all sinners, and to my way of thinking, this is a good thing.

"Can you elaborate on that? When and how can it be a good thing?"

Here I will remind you that Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan of us reproducing and taking dominion over the whole world.

I see no conflict between god and nature in this, not that god exists.

Christians may be thinking the same way when they sing their hymn that calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

" do not recall that song. What is the name of it?"

The Exsultet hymn.

"What sin would that be and how would it help us to avoid extinction?"

Original sin to Christians. They ignored that the Jews see Eden as where man was elevated to the Jewish view of our Original virtue.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

"If our plan is to live, why do we destroy so many lives, including our own?"

Because we are designed to compete and cooperate like all other creatures.
Life builds upon death.

"Aside from others, do you ever listen to others' opinions, are you open to them or do you simply stay within that "box" of yours which you spoke about? "

I always listen and have to be forced out of my box as it has taken me years to formulate my positions.

I debate hard to win, but my wish is to lose so that I might advance my thinking.
When I win, I win nothing. The other guy does if he is bright enough to notice.

"He was after all 33 years old. Being human, might he not have acted on his temper say to save some woman or child from being used or abused, et cetera. He was human. You would do the same, would you not? "

I would. Jesus did not. He told slaves to be happy in their slavery which is not good for anyone but the slave owner.

"Well, it is all myth to me too though perhaps historically speaking, there was someone who that myth was based on just as perhaps there was someone who King Arthur is based on."

All heroes of a 1,000 faces to Joseph Campbell and myself.

Regards
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:02 pm

....
#-o
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:55 pm

Greatest I Am,
Pure French blood but born in Northern Ontario. I am linguistically more Franglais than Français.
Say something to me in Franglais.
"I loved his accent."

Especially in the bedroom I hope.

:lol: Actually, we never got that far. I led a very sheltered life in the orphanage and met him right after graduation. The French he whispered in my ear was more or less in a sitting position. But there were quite some "aha" moments then. So, come early Winter, the bloom had as yet not left the rose. That came later.
That is where my French really comes out.

Ah! A moment of silence please. Okay then...
Oh, you French men. :evilfun:

Kidding. Lets not go there

Why do people do that? They say things and then take them back.
Too late. You already went "there". I think that it is best not to say anything else about that. :evilfun: I am, after all, only human.

"Brain dead?! "
Yes. I could have said partially perhaps.

How a bout a dead spot.

Well, one could perhaps say a blindspot" but is it really? Why can the two not be in harmony with one another? Why did evolution grant us both a mind and a heart if they cannot be married and harmonious?

NOW, after having listened to Dawkins and what the geologist, Kurt Wise, said below I am questioning if there actually can be harmony within what he said. Obviously, in a sense, there cannot be as both statements refute each other but then again, can there be? Beliefs can be so deeply embedded in one's mind and psyche that they cannot be let go of despite another part of us having a rational mind. I wonder what it would cost him to have to let go of his christian mindset. The very first time that the first humans looked up and wondered about what they saw, something so intangible/meaningful/beautiful, mysterious lol became so deeply rooted within every part of their beings. Perhaps that is what is so difficult to shake no matter how rational one is. Qui sait!

Anyway, you do not like psychobabble. I think it all comes down to the human mind actually being the last frontier :lol: ...what we still have to learn about the mind. Will we ever gain the knowledge we need to understand why people can say such things as Kurt Wise did. But do we have to? It seemed to be his personal choice to uphold that meaning.

Dawkins was a bit harsh ~ though it is possible that you will not agree with that. :P

Regardless I have the mindset expressed in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6Mr ... re=related

What the geologist, Kurt Wise who has a PH.D from Harvard and said: "If all the evidence in the universe pointed toward an old Earth, I would be the first to admit it but I would still be a young Earth creationist because that is what holy scripture teaches me. You cannot argue with a mind like that. A mind like that seems to me well a disgrace to the human species.

I kind of put the cart before the horse there with my explanation before the hyperlink.

" Competition allows us to find out/know who we are, what we are capable of, helps us to grow and to mature and to achieve. "

True, but the winner will feel good about his win while the loser will feel evil has befallen him by comparison.

As for the second part there, I think that that would depend on the individual.
Someone would have to have pretty low self-esteem, I think, to feel that way.
Do you think that this is the way the Olympians feel and the way in which people who have really achieved things feel? Who would ever succeed with that mindset, Greatest I Am. Losing does not mean being a loser. That would only be the case if one did not try again but simply wallowed in self-pity. "Oh, woe is me".

"Sure, doing evil to one another really perpetuates the human race!!!!"

Yes. Have you noted our species growing while others shrink?

But is it? We destroy and we murder. We do not value other species as we do our own. WE are, after all, humans with consciousness. We are so far above the animal kingdom. Is this not your take on it from what you say (perhaps toned down a bit). We do not even value our own species ~ our own selves. What we value more are things, more and more things. The more we put into our selves the more the holes grow.
This is what we are teaching our children to do. What happened when Fortnite went dark. Many behaved as though it was the end of the world. We are raising our children to be addicts, to value things rather than their selves. Is our species really growing or is it shrinking and shriveling up?
In fact, we grow to the point where evolutionists think we are going too far in being good to each other as we are ignoring what we are doing to our eco system that is now in a major extinction event that could include us.

How are we being good to one another?

"If our plan is to live, why do we destroy so many lives, including our own?"

Because we are designed to compete and cooperate like all other creatures.
Life builds upon death.

It seems more like the survival of the fittest instead of the desire to cooperate.

I always listen and have to be forced out of my box as it has taken me years to formulate my positions.

I debate hard to win, but my wish is to lose so that I might advance my thinking.
When I win, I win nothing. The other guy does if he is bright enough to notice.

So then why do you have to debate to "win" if you desire to advance your thinking? Why not just debate in order to learn? I suppose I may be missing something here.
It is true that we ourselves also learn as we ourselves are writing. Where is the spirit of cooperation if one's mindset is in "winning"?

"He was after all 33 years old. Being human, might he not have acted on his temper say to save some woman or child from being used or abused, et cetera. He was human. You would do the same, would you not?
I would. Jesus did not. He told slaves to be happy in their slavery which is not good for anyone but the slave owner.

I would have to see where this is written first of all. Anyway, much that was written was just the mentality of whoever wrote that. As you know, lol, I am not a biblical scholar. But my intuition tells me from what I did read in the past was that Christ, if there was such a person, was a rebel and just and for the underdog. He would not be telling people to accept their fate but rather to rise up and fight against it. The reason that he himself did not was because it was part and parcel of his mission on Earth to Die.

All heroes of a 1,000 faces to Joseph Campbell and myself.

I always liked Joseph Campbell.
Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors for you where there were only walls.

CHALEUREUSEMENT
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:40 pm

A D

"Say something to me in Franglais."

It is similar to the patois in Mississippi. It mixes French and English.

Va chercher la fan belt.
Open la fenêtres.

"Why did evolution grant us both a mind and a heart if they cannot be married and harmonious?"

I do not see a conflict.

Where/when do you see a lack of harmony or conflict?

You do know that the mind tells the heart what to feel. Right?

"Perhaps that is what is so difficult to shake no matter how rational one is. Qui sait!"

True. I have a hard time explaining why so many --- rational --- Christians have end in the idol worship of a genocidal son murdering prick of a god.



My "True, but the winner will feel good about his win while the loser will feel evil has befallen him by comparison."

Your "As for the second part there, I think that that would depend on the individual.
Someone would have to have pretty low self-esteem, I think, to feel that way.
Do you think that this is the way the Olympians feel and the way in which people who have really achieved things feel? Who would ever succeed with that mindset, Greatest I Am. Losing does not mean being a loser. That would only be the case if one did not try again but simply wallowed in self-pity. "Oh, woe is me"."

I used the words, by comparison. If you think the loser to the competition, whatever it is, should feel as good as the winner then what can I say. I see a winner and a loser while you see everyone winning.

How that loser reacts is another issue that speak to character. The loss will either motivate him to do better if he can or end his career. There are too many factors for a discussion.

"Is our species really growing or is it shrinking and shriveling up?"

You see the numbers and the answer is obvious.

I too have problems with our attitudes but our growth cannot be denied.

"How are we being good to one another?"

That link says it all. We cooperate and cater to each other too much. That is a part of why we are close to our own extinction as a part of the mass extinction event we are forcing the planet to do and which is going on right now.
How we can humanely reverse that I don't know.

It will take ending poverty so as to reduce our need for empathy and altruism.
A strange wish list but I cannot fathom any other alternative.

"It seems more like the survival of the fittest instead of the desire to cooperate."

They are tied at the hip. We default to cooperation, perhaps too much, as it is the better survival strategy than competition.

Survival first, fitness second.

"Where is the spirit of cooperation if one's mindset is in "winning"?"

It is not there. No one said it was. Discussions and debate are competitions.

That does not mean I do not want to gain knowledge by losing one. Winning teaches me nothing.

"But my intuition tells me from what I did read in the past was that Christ, if there was such a person, was a rebel and just and for the underdog."

There are more than one Jesus archetype in the scriptures. The Gnostic Jesus is more as you say.
The Roman Jesus is who most know, thanks to the lying preachers, so we would have to specify which Jesus we are talking about.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:47 pm

Greatest I Am,
Va chercher la fan belt.
Open la fenêtres.

Kind of like I thought. Like broken English with any language.
You do know that the mind tells the heart what to feel. Right?

Does it? Sometimes our mind rules our emotions (hopefully) and at other times it is the emotions which rule the mind. This is why it is so important to look at things with honest reflection. Perhaps at times we think that it is the mind which is speaking but it is the heart (emotions).
"Perhaps that is what is so difficult to shake no matter how rational one is. Qui sait!"

True. I have a hard time explaining why so many --- rational --- Christians have end in the idol worship of a genocidal son murdering prick of a god.

:lol: You really do lay it on thick. I wonder where all of this is coming from - besides your rational mind, I mean. :P

Were you ever a Catholic or any denomination of Christian. I do not mean Gnostic Christian ~ I mean a baptized one? Perhaps the human mind "cherry picks" or does have a blind spot or does not actually take the time to consider the full context in the scriptures.
Perhaps these rational christians have the rationale to realize that much of what is put down depends on the mindset and beliefs of those who actually wrote the bible.

Do you really believe that these christians who love their god actually see god in that way? I did not see God in this way when I was a practicing Catholic. I did not buy into all of that garbage and I saw God as a good loving God but that might have more to do with the way in which I see nature and the Universe.
My "True, but the winner will feel good about his win while the loser will feel evil has befallen him by comparison."

Your "As for the second part there, I think that that would depend on the individual.
Someone would have to have pretty low self-esteem, I think, to feel that way.
Do you think that this is the way the Olympians feel and the way in which people who have really achieved things feel? Who would ever succeed with that mindset, Greatest I Am. Losing does not mean being a loser. That would only be the case if one did not try again but simply wallowed in self-pity. "Oh, woe is me".
"

I used the words, by comparison. If you think the loser to the competition, whatever it is, should feel as good as the winner then what can I say. I see a winner and a loser while you see everyone winning.

I did not say that the loser should feel as good as the winner. If that were the case, I would question why he/she is there in the first place. But there are reasons why the loser could still feel a certain amount of satisfaction albeit he lost. This is why I said that it depends on the individual.
Insofar as the competition goes, yes, there has to be a winner and a loser but at the same time, sure, I can see everyone as winning - something...You seem to see everything in black and white, Greatest I Am or am I wrong?
How that loser reacts is another issue that speak to character. The loss will either motivate him to do better if he can or end his career.

This is what I meant. The "real" loser is the one who will end his career. He can see no further than that moment...no half-filled cup.
There are too many factors for a discussion.

The way I see it, that is the beauty of it. Am I wrong? The more factors, the more light, the better the discussion. Can I be wrong?
I too have problems with our attitudes but our growth cannot be denied.

I can certainly agree with this considering all of the good that human beings are trying to do to better our world, but it is impossible to tell which way the scale is leaning. I suppose that a buddhist or a stoic might just say that it is progressing as it is/was meant to.
That link says it all
.
The only link I see in here is the creationist one and how does that jive with the above?

We cooperate and cater to each other too much. That is a part of why we are close to our own extinction as a part of the mass extinction event we are forcing the planet to do and which is going on right now.
How we can humanely reverse that I don't know.

As an example[s]? I am not quite sure what it is that you are getting at here. Can you elaborate a bit.
It will take ending poverty so as to reduce our need for empathy and altruism.
A strange wish list but I cannot fathom any other alternative.

I do not see an end to poverty ever unfortunately. It is too wide spread. How would we even accomplish that? But we cannot stop trying.
I may be wrong but maybe I understand what you mean here about "empathy and altruism". Sometimes we lead with our hearts only where we need to balance with discretion, mindfulness/intelligence and a look to the future. Sometimes we have a tendency to rob Peter in order to pay Paul. Such a conflict of interest. Anyway....
"It seems more like the survival of the fittest instead of the desire to cooperate."

They are tied at the hip. We default to cooperation, perhaps too much, as it is the better survival strategy than competition.

Instead of dog eat dog? So then, what gets in the way? Greed, pettiness, arrogance, narcissism, abuse of power, what?
"Where is the spirit of cooperation if one's mindset is in "winning"?"


It is not there. No one said it was. Discussions and debate are competitions.

That does not mean I do not want to gain knowledge by losing one. Winning teaches me nothing.

So you can say that your ultimate goal is to learn not just to win points.
Do you really see no spirit of cooperation at all in discussions and debates? I seem to intuit one between us here and others elsewhere in here. Would I be wrong in this?
"But my intuition tells me from what I did read in the past was that Christ, if there was such a person, was a rebel and just and for the underdog."

There are more than one Jesus archetype in the scriptures. The Gnostic Jesus is more as you say.

The Roman Jesus is who most know, thanks to the lying preachers, so we would have to specify which Jesus we are talking about.
:lol:

Can you off the top of your head name a few of Christ's archtypes so I understand what you mean. That would make for an interesting new thread by Greatest I Am.

Bonne soirée.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:17 pm

A D

I was born into a catholic family and owe the church quite a bit of thanks for helping me when young.

Orphanage, reform school etc.

That is why I tried to help it think better and being banned by Christian and Catholic sites was my reward.

"You seem to see everything in black and white, Greatest I Am or am I wrong?"

I am a dualist but see the grey between the black and white. Yin and Yang compliment each other, like front and back, and are not in opposition.

"Can I be wrong?"

Do I really need to answer this?

Your answer is why I will not bother adding a list of character traits to a discussion. It would likely get repetitive, thanks to your retention ability, given that I have given you the same information three times elsewhere. Once bit, twice shy.

"I do not see an end to poverty ever unfortunately."

You have not looked.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/ ... of-poverty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

"Instead of dog eat dog? So then, what gets in the way? Greed, pettiness, arrogance, narcissism, abuse of power, what?"

Nature and evolution guide us and are not in our way. If the least fit rule, extinction will be our rewards.

""Where is the spirit of cooperation if one's mindset is in "winning"?"

We default to cooperation to insure our survival. We latter compete to show our fitness. The fittest will and should rule.

"So you can say that your ultimate goal is to learn not just to win points."

Correct. Points give me nothing new. Losing points does. I prefer to lose and gain knowledge so that I might increase my wisdom.

"Do you really see no spirit of cooperation at all in discussions and debates? I seem to intuit one between us here and others elsewhere in here. Would I be wrong in this?"

We all have our strategies and aptitudes. Whatever works.

"Can you off the top of your head name a few of Christ's archetypes so I understand what you mean."

I see two main ones. The Roma created one that wants to tie us to religious and political traditions and the Gnostic Christian one, that if I recall correctly, I already quoted you.

He does not like us tying ourselves to religions and governments traditions and their ideologies unquestioningly.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:58 pm

Greatest I Am,
That is why I tried to help it think better and being banned by Christian and Catholic sites was my reward.

I suppose that I would have to read some of those posts in order to judge why you were banned but if you were constantly calling God out with some of the descriptive adjectives which you have used here including the one[s] Dawkins used, can you not understand why?
Have you ever contemplated changing your delivery and/or coming up with a different way to get your message across or do you continue to stay in the same box even though it does not work.
"You seem to see everything in black and white, Greatest I Am or am I wrong?"

I am a dualist but see the grey between the black and white. Yin and Yang compliment each other, like front and back, and are not in opposition.

Well, I do see these things as being also oppositional in a way but at the same time many things do seem to compliment one another and are in harmony.

Your answer is why I will not bother adding a list of character traits to a discussion. It would likely get repetitive, thanks to your retention ability, given that I have given you the same information three times elsewhere. Once bit, twice shy.
So, unless I am mis-reading you, you seem to be saying that my retention ability is lacking. The truth is that if you knew what I did for a living you could not possibly say that. Perhaps you have no idea what it takes to multi-task in a certain kind of environment where things need to be done yesterday. lol
Anyway, do you expect people in here to recall everything which you say in posts and different threads?

The "real" issue here is that oftentimes you seem to supply the same information. Nothing seems to change but of course that is just my perception. You are stuck in what you seem to believe as far as a God goes. I do recall you saying that you will not come out of your box.
"I do not see an end to poverty ever unfortunately."

You have not looked.
One would think by this statement that you see the problem of poverty as already having been taken care of, that no nation lives in poverty, no one goes hungry, no one is homeless. I can see that organizations and people are working on the poverty issue and many strides have been made. Humanity does also have a wonderful, compassionate, empathetic side to it.
Perhaps you are speaking more in terms of hopefulness when you say that I have not looked.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

They do not spell out the end of poverty. What about all of those random events, like tornadoes, hurricanes, war, et cetera, that set people back, way back?
Nature and evolution guide us and are not in our way. If the least fit rule, extinction will be our rewards.

As in "Mother" nature not being in our way? Really?
We default to cooperation to insure our survival
.
The intelligent and compassionate individuals and countries do.
We latter compete to show our fitness. The fittest will and should rule.

Should rule? I am probably wrong in the way that I am perceiving/reading this but your latter sentence might be taken as being despotic but I can agree with it in its most positive light.
"So you can say that your ultimate goal is to learn not just to win points."

Correct. Points give me nothing new. Losing points does. I prefer to lose and gain knowledge so that I might increase my wisdom.
Good. I understand this. So, how are things looking for you on the whole in that regard since coming to ILP? Have you learned anything new and positive from us?
We all have our strategies and aptitudes. Whatever works.

I guess that makes sense. lol

Je te souhaite bonne chance
:evilfun:
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s ga

Postby Gloominary » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:04 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Gloominary wrote:No one or institution including mainstream academia has a monopoly on reason, research and publicly reviewing each others work.
We can all publicly review each others work as individuals, or members of an (alt) discipline.
There is no absolute authority if any.
For me, individual authority comes first, followed closely by the authority of the people.
We as individuals, and a democracy decide who the experts are, if there are any, experts aren't self-appointed.
This is what I call epistemic populism, and it stands in stark contrast to academicism, rigid ideologues, scientism and religionism.


We are too busy making our children into our image through indoctrination to teach them the type of critical thinking you want.

In fact, today, we seem to want to dumb down our population.

The dim are a lot easier to control and manipulate than the bright.

Regards
DL

It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
The more academia, government and the MSM discourage the masses from thinking for themselves, the less they'll be able to think for themselves.
The more the masses discourage themselves from thinking for themselves, the less they'll be able to.
The less they'll be able to, the more academia, government and the MSM will swindle them.
The more they're swindled, the poorer and sicker they'll be, the less time, energy, resources and ability they'll have to think for themselves, it's a vicious cycle.
We have to start challenging our institutions, dismantling them and creating more democratic ones.
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