Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:13 pm

Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.

Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.

Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.

Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?

There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?

Thanks.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:01 pm

Paul notes that All will be saved from hell and the grave. If one soul is lost, it makes Jesus the loser. Consider the parable of the ninety and nine.
You have it right in suggesting that the punishment must fit the crime. No decent human would beat a child for twenty years for something the child did in a few seconds. Yet the churches still teach that about 95% of the entire human race will be sent to hell where they will be tormented forever. I wouldn't do that. So does that make me more moral than God or make God misrepresented by theism?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:41 pm

Literal biblical interpretation is phasing out . The intention of biblical teaching is to evolve human spiritual development. How can not but the fear of he'll not serve as proper inspiration toward the same lifting of souls?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:56 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Paul notes that All will be saved from hell and the grave. If one soul is lost, it makes Jesus the loser. Consider the parable of the ninety and nine.
You have it right in suggesting that the punishment must fit the crime. No decent human would beat a child for twenty years for something the child did in a few seconds. Yet the churches still teach that about 95% of the entire human race will be sent to hell where they will be tormented forever. I wouldn't do that. So does that make me more moral than God or make God misrepresented by theism?


Both.

Where in Paul's writing did you find that?

I have the following that I think say this but that is all.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Literal biblical interpretation is phasing out .


In intelligent left wing circles, to a point, but if Christianity loses it's literal Jesus, it dies. If there is no Christ, what is the point of calling ones self a Christian?

The intention of biblical teaching is to evolve human spiritual development. How can not but the fear of he'll not serve as proper inspiration toward the same lifting of souls?


I see it more as to make sure the religion/tribe survives even if it has to lie and handcuff Jesus.

Here is the Popes latest lie that bolsters my view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_bvGTc6SM8

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:55 pm

I Corinthians 15:22 on universal salvation. As my friend Bill would put it, "What part of "ALL" don't you understand?"
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:20 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I Corinthians 15:22 on universal salvation. As my friend Bill would put it, "What part of "ALL" don't you understand?"


There are many references to hell, --- which denies universalism.

You should not ignore half the bible if you are to quote it.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:32 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I Corinthians 15:22 on universal salvation. As my friend Bill would put it, "What part of "ALL" don't you understand?"


There are many references to hell, --- which denies universalism.

You should not ignore half the bible if you are to quote it.

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There are not many references to hell in the NT. The word hell was used to translate such ideas as Hades, Sheol, the valley of Hennom (Gahenna)), etc., etc.
It is mentioned a a place of torment in the Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus and later in the book of Revelations. In neither instance is the torment said to have lasted for an eternity. Jesus would have had a better understanding of justice. Jesus was/is not a loser as the modern church suggests.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:13 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I Corinthians 15:22 on universal salvation. As my friend Bill would put it, "What part of "ALL" don't you understand?"


There are many references to hell, --- which denies universalism.

You should not ignore half the bible if you are to quote it.

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DL

There are not many references to hell in the NT. The word hell was used to translate such ideas as Hades, Sheol, the valley of Hennom (Gahenna)), etc., etc.
It is mentioned a a place of torment in the Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus and later in the book of Revelations. In neither instance is the torment said to have lasted for an eternity. Jesus would have had a better understanding of justice. Jesus was/is not a loser as the modern church suggests.


??

Where in scriptures do you find this?
The church and I seldom think the same way as a loser is what I see in the Rome created Jesus.

As far as eternal torment in hell, you are correct that the bible does not show that. It shows, after many years of pointless torture, hell is dumped into the lake of fire for our second death.

Such is the idiotic Christian view.

From a moral standpoint, Jesus is a loser as many of his moral tenets are not moral at all. Especially his no divorce and substitutional punishment policies.

Care to argue for his immoral position?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:52 pm

We have different ideas of who are what Jesus is. Jesus is a way, not a person; and the way is unconditional, universal love. I would not argue for the fundamentalist misunderstandings of Jesus, which you constantly raise as a true description of who Jesus is or was.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:07 pm

Ierrellus wrote:We have different ideas of who are what Jesus is. Jesus is a way, not a person; and the way is unconditional, universal love. I would not argue for the fundamentalist misunderstandings of Jesus, which you constantly raise as a true description of who Jesus is or was.


Neither would I, given that there likely was never a miracle working Jesus and his morals are not verry moral.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:22 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:We have different ideas of who are what Jesus is. Jesus is a way, not a person; and the way is unconditional, universal love. I would not argue for the fundamentalist misunderstandings of Jesus, which you constantly raise as a true description of who Jesus is or was.


Neither would I, given that there likely was never a miracle working Jesus and his morals are not verry moral.

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Then you are arguing against a straw man.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:27 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:We have different ideas of who are what Jesus is. Jesus is a way, not a person; and the way is unconditional, universal love. I would not argue for the fundamentalist misunderstandings of Jesus, which you constantly raise as a true description of who Jesus is or was.


Neither would I, given that there likely was never a miracle working Jesus and his morals are not verry moral.

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Then you are arguing against a straw man.


Do not be so hard on yourself.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:29 pm

Ierrellus,
Paul notes that All will be saved from hell and the grave. If one soul is lost, it makes Jesus the loser. Consider the parable of the ninety and nine.

Was that actually Paul's mindset? That Jesus would be a loser? Anyway, how is that to be accomplished, Ierrellus? What of those who could care less about being saved?
I always liked the parable of the good shepherd. He was both caring and very responsible. Something really profound to me about that. But there is a big difference between a little lamb being saved by its shepherd and Christ saving everybody. But even a shepherd might not be able to save every sheep if they scattered.

How can it make Jesus the loser? He supposedly (according to the church) came to save us all but that does not mean that all would be saved. I believe that the Catholic Church calls that the Sin of Presumption. There is the right of will not to care about being saved. "You can bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink it.

.... No decent human would beat a child for twenty years for something the child did in a few seconds.

Why did you not stop at CHILD? No decent human would beat a child PERIOD.

Yet the churches still teach that about 95% of the entire human race will be sent to hell where they will be tormented forever. I wouldn't do that.


That is actually being far beyond hyperbolic, Ierrellus. Where have you read that? If there can be a god and a hell, those statistic are so way beyond truth ~~ 95%??????? 95% of the whole human race - just about every person who was ever born.

How illogical would it be for a Christ to come down to Earth and make of himself a complete human being to try to save humanity only to fail so miserably? What a total waste that would be.

What churches are you speaking of? The ones which still perform exorcisms? lol Show me those statistics. I was raised in a catholic orphanage and went to church for years afterwards. Never have I ever heard something so ludicrous. Has it been proven that the people who run these churches are psychic or can see into the future? Who in their mind would want to frequent such a place? Perhaps they would be the ones to need an exorcism. No, I do not believe in exorcisms or in demons.

So does that make me more moral than God or make God misrepresented by theism?

If there ever was a Christ who existed, one might be able to speak in terms of him being moral since supposedly he was fully human but you cannot really speak in terms of God, the First Cause or whatever, as being moral since God would be beyond moral unless perhaps that God is a personal loving one but even then God would beyond human terms. We ourselves attribute these terms to a God.

The real question here, Ierrellus, is: Why are you, if you really do believe that Churches preach that, being so quick to judge what you think the churches are saying in such a negative, faulty way without even questioning just how true that statement IS and where it came from?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:51 pm

In Jesus' own words, the parable of the ninety and nine suggests universal salvation. Yes, that was Paul's mindset.
Evangelicals still preach that the vast majority of humans will spend their afterlife eternity in the tortures of a fiery hell.
Since this is Greatest I am's thread, I address the fundamentalism he seems to believe all Christianity consists of.
Saved from what? Good question. Read Matthew Fox's "Original Blessing" to see how this Augustinian, Miltonian mythology of sin and redemption originated. To answer your why question, I was raised in strict fundamentalism in the Bible belt; hence my extreme reactions, since it caused me much distress. I know what their teachings are/were.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:50 pm

GIA,

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?


I was lost but have been found and saved. lol

What sin? I probably would have to say and do say the sin of Ignorance. Is Ignorance a sin? The sin of not having "truly" known myself, not having taken the time to learn about who I am and because of that not taking the proper action to do what it takes to truly care about myself and to live according to Sapere Aude.

We ourselves are the ones who condemn mankind. We are the one who need to learn to be just which I personally do not think is such an easy thing to learn.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Ierrellus wrote:In Jesus' own words, the parable of the ninety and nine suggests universal salvation. Yes, that was Paul's mindset.
Evangelicals still preach that the vast majority of humans will spend their afterlife eternity in the tortures of a fiery hell.
Since this is Greatest I am's thread, I address the fundamentalism he seems to believe all Christianity consists of.
Saved from what? Good question. Read Matthew Fox's "Original Blessing" to see how this Augustinian, Miltonian mythology of sin and redemption originated. To answer your why question, I was raised in strict fundamentalism in the Bible belt; hence my extreme reactions, since it caused me much distress. I know what their teachings are/were.


So do I. All lies.

Christians are following a Jewish god and should read scriptures the way Jews read them.
Not literally; then you would not see the original sin concept.
You would see the Original Jewish concept of Original Virtue.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:31 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:GIA,

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?


I was lost but have been found and saved. lol

What sin? I probably would have to say and do say the sin of Ignorance. Is Ignorance a sin? The sin of not having "truly" known myself, not having taken the time to learn about who I am and because of that not taking the proper action to do what it takes to truly care about myself and to live according to Sapere Aude.

We ourselves are the ones who condemn mankind. We are the one who need to learn to be just which I personally do not think is such an easy thing to learn.


Not when, just, to the mainstream religions, includes homophobia, misogyny and denying half the planet equality.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:20 pm

So, what is the cure for mainstream religious beliefs? Do you have a better way, something more and better than railing against the old way?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:08 pm

Ierrellus wrote:So, what is the cure for mainstream religious beliefs? Do you have a better way, something more and better than railing against the old way?


Yes. A return to older and better thinking so as to help those lost to literalism, and do the bulk of the harm, return to better moral thinking.

An example of that is Gnostic Christianity. The best ideology on the planet.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:30 pm

Rumor has it that Origen castrated himself.If so, it was from a literal translation of "If the eye offends thee, pluck it out." (paraphrase)
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:33 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Rumor has it that Origen castrated himself.If so, it was from a literal translation of "If the eye offends thee, pluck it out." (paraphrase)


Most of history is likely wrong as the winners write it.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:36 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Rumor has it that Origen castrated himself.If so, it was from a literal translation of "If the eye offends thee, pluck it out." (paraphrase)


Ouch!
If he had taken it "literally" it would have been his eye he plucked out. We always observe the spirit of the law if not the letter to suit our purposes.
I suppose he had little need for the "other".
Anyway, a rumor is just that - a rumor.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:39 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Rumor has it that Origen castrated himself.If so, it was from a literal translation of "If the eye offends thee, pluck it out." (paraphrase)


Most of history is likely wrong as the winners write it.

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So what of history can we trust to be accurate renditions of what was said and done?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:08 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Rumor has it that Origen castrated himself.If so, it was from a literal translation of "If the eye offends thee, pluck it out." (paraphrase)


Most of history is likely wrong as the winners write it.

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DL


So what of history can we trust to be accurate renditions of what was said and done?


If there are a variety of agreeing sources, then one might assume it to be true.

In the case of gods, there is no peer revue for any religion.

I trust the archeologists, who are peer reviewed, who have shown that the bible is historically incorrect in many instances.

If even one lie is shown, it discredits the whole book as an history.

I see a lie the moment a talking serpent and donkey are spoken of as real.

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