Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:35 pm

phyllo wrote:
I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.
If you surveyed Christians, I think that you would find that most do not consider it to be "a good form of justice".

Most probably don't spend much time on that bible passage. If they do, they see it as contradicted other passages or that God's reasoning is unclear to them, or it's a case of "actions can have unpleasant consequences".


??

What actions did the baby do to gain the unpleasant consequences of torture and murder at god's hands?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:43 pm

Ierrellus wrote:"The fox condemns the trap, not himself."--Blake.


I am with the fox. If Blake believed that the fox ought to have seen it coming, then Blake is an idiot.
Perhaps he was a hunter who set that trap. lol
But I know what you are talking about here, I think.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby phyllo » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm

What actions did the baby do to gain the unpleasant consequences of torture and murder at god's hands?
The baby didn't do anything.

Some Christians will see its death as a consequence of David's actions.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:09 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:"The fox condemns the trap, not himself."--Blake.


I am with the fox. If Blake believed that the fox ought to have seen it coming, then Blake is an idiot.
Perhaps he was a hunter who set that trap. lol
But I know what you are talking about here, I think.
He was saying that the fox doesn't get into self-hatred and Blake was saying this was good. And I agree. Of course one may also learn from the experience and try to prevent it happening again, but aggressive energy should be aimed at the trap not the self.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:12 pm

phyllo wrote:
What actions did the baby do to gain the unpleasant consequences of torture and murder at god's hands?
The baby didn't do anything.

Some Christians will see its death as a consequence of David's actions.


That is how it is portrayed, yet Christians praise that injustice thus showing how their religious beliefs have corrupted their morals.

You do think it was unjust, I hope.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Karpel Tunnel,

The fox condemns the trap, not himself."--Blake.


[/quote]He was saying that the fox doesn't get into self-hatred and Blake was saying this was good. And I agree. Of course one may also learn from the experience and try to prevent it happening again, but aggressive energy should be aimed at the trap not the self.[/quote]

Ah, thank you for that. I totally mis-read it. Your interpretation seems right on the mark. It seems like it would be a good mantra too.
This is what happens when we think too quickly instead of slowly. :oops:
I was just thinking of the poor fox in the trap.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby phyllo » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:36 pm

That is how it is portrayed, yet Christians praise that injustice thus showing how their religious beliefs have corrupted their morals.
Not all Christians "praise that injustice". Maybe some do, but probably not many.
You do think it was unjust, I hope.
It has nothing to do with me.

The point is that you are making broad statements about what all Christians do and think. And those statements seem to be false.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:35 pm

Greatest I Am,

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and reverse a lot of the Christian morals.


For instance, give me an example of this.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

For instance? An example please.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:17 pm

Original sin is the trap. You are the fox.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:52 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Original sin is the trap. You are the fox.


I found the below quote to be kind of koan-like for the above quote. It is cool.

You drown not by falling in a river but by staying submerged in it.
Paul Cohello
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:40 pm

phyllo wrote:
That is how it is portrayed, yet Christians praise that injustice thus showing how their religious beliefs have corrupted their morals.
Not all Christians "praise that injustice". Maybe some do, but probably not many.
You do think it was unjust, I hope.
It has nothing to do with me.

The point is that you are making broad statements about what all Christians do and think. And those statements seem to be false.


Liar.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:43 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I Am,

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and reverse a lot of the Christian morals.


For instance, give me an example of this.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

For instance? An example please.


For the third and last time.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.


Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and reverse a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:19 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Original sin is the trap. You are the fox.


I found the below quote to be kind of koan-like for the above quote. It is cool.

You drown not by falling in a river but by staying submerged in it.
Paul Cohello

A change of mind frees one from the trap. Yes, action is required. I don't see how Gnostic Christianity offers this personal option.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:38 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Original sin is the trap. You are the fox.


I found the below quote to be kind of koan-like for the above quote. It is cool.

You drown not by falling in a river but by staying submerged in it.
Paul Cohello

A change of mind frees one from the trap. Yes, action is required. I don't see how Gnostic Christianity offers this personal option.


We offer a change of mind by promoting that we all be esoteric ecumenists who are perpetual seekers who are eager to scrap our ideological points when a better on is found. We are against idol worship of any ideology and thus remain eager to evolve our ideology to a better form.

God, to us, is analogous to the best rules and laws to live by, and those change over time and conditions at hand.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:42 pm

Greatest I Am,

God, to us, is analogous to the best rules and laws to live by, and those change over time and conditions at hand.


This I can wrap my mind around. As God said to Moses before the burning bush: "I Am who I Am...I will finish that with ...Becoming.


Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

For instance? An example please.

For the third and last time.


For the third and last time


lol I might have said the same thing to you.

I was actually hoping for something different, fresher, something more brought up-to-date, you know, to these modern times.
In other words, what some Christians might call evil where Gnostic Christians would not in order to get the mindset of a GC. We all have a different sense at times of what immorality is, what evil is, and things are not so black and white. You are a dualist. This is fine but things have more colors and hues to them then simply being black/white/gray.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion


Since none of that is real anyway, why not try to depict a God on the opposite side of that coin.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:53 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I Am,

God, to us, is analogous to the best rules and laws to live by, and those change over time and conditions at hand.


This I can wrap my mind around. As God said to Moses before the burning bush: "I Am who I Am...I will finish that with ...Becoming.


Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

For instance? An example please.

For the third and last time.


For the third and last time


lol I might have said the same thing to you.

I was actually hoping for something different, fresher, something more brought up-to-date, you know, to these modern times.
In other words, what some Christians might call evil where Gnostic Christians would not in order to get the mindset of a GC. We all have a different sense at times of what immorality is, what evil is, and things are not so black and white. You are a dualist. This is fine but things have more colors and hues to them then simply being black/white/gray.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion


Since none of that is real anyway, why not try to depict a God on the opposite side of that coin.


Calling evil good.

Try homophobia and misogyny.

Gnostic Christians call those concepts evil while Christians call them good.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:12 pm

Greatest I Am,

Calling evil good.


I never call evil good. Murder is not good, Rape is not good, pedophilia is not good, beating one's wife or children is not good, dropping bombs on innocents is not good. Greed while others go hungry and suffer for that greed is not good, homelessness is not good. Do you want me to go on or you can.

Try homophobia and misogyny.


True. Actions which come about because of this kind of ignorance can be evil actions. They are not so much about being a christian or not though Christians and those striving to be good ought to have compassion and empathy. They are about growing up in ignorance, taking everything in the bible as literal instead of learning to think for one's self. They are about fear and mis-understanding.

Gnostic Christians call those concepts evil while Christians call them good.


You are putting things in the wrong way. I am not so sure that you would not, could not, find a gnostic christian somewhere who is not homophobic, misogynistic or both.

Do you see anything at all evil in the way Richard Dawkins approached his idea of the God of the Old Testament? Can there be any such thing as a benign atheist or a benign agnostic?
What about you and your approach? Is it working for you. I read your post where you have been kicked out of Catholic and Christian forums. How you can still teach, point real things out and at the same time not burst people's bubbles, so to speak?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:45 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Greatest I Am,

Calling evil good.


I never call evil good. Murder is not good, Rape is not good, pedophilia is not good, beating one's wife or children is not good, dropping bombs on innocents is not good. Greed while others go hungry and suffer for that greed is not good, homelessness is not good. Do you want me to go on or you can.

Try homophobia and misogyny.


True. Actions which come about because of this kind of ignorance can be evil actions. They are not so much about being a christian or not though Christians and those striving to be good ought to have compassion and empathy. They are about growing up in ignorance, taking everything in the bible as literal instead of learning to think for one's self. They are about fear and mis-understanding.

Gnostic Christians call those concepts evil while Christians call them good.


You are putting things in the wrong way. I am not so sure that you would not, could not, find a gnostic christian somewhere who is not homophobic, misogynistic or both.

Do you see anything at all evil in the way Richard Dawkins approached his idea of the God of the Old Testament? Can there be any such thing as a benign atheist or a benign agnostic?
What about you and your approach? Is it working for you. I read your post where you have been kicked out of Catholic and Christian forums. How you can still teach, point real things out and at the same time not burst people's bubbles, so to speak?


Your first is correct and Christianity has institutionalized homophobia and misogyny which Christians accept unthinkingly as gospel.

You seem to agree that they are calling those evil good.

As to Gnostic Christians being homophobic and misogynous, impossible.
We are universalists in our spiritual and secular thinking, to a lesser degree and cannot see souls as unequal as we have tied equality to righteousness.

This link has to be modernized but gives our older thinking.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

As to Dawkins.
He has the right moral view of the genocidal prick of a god, while I think he is only analysing the myth as literally as the Christian right without seeing the moral value of it, if, like Gnostic Christians, he would reverse the Christian take, which is more the way Jews see their myth.

I see him as a naturalist and agree with him from that POV.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:25 pm

The Devil wrote the Bible".--MH
I never said I agreed with him. For me the Bible is a fat udder for spiritual infants. It can nourish if read carefully.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:49 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The Devil wrote the Bible".--MH
I never said I agreed with him. For me the Bible is a fat udder for spiritual infants. It can nourish if read carefully.


lol I have never heard that before, Ierrellus. It was funny and yet a bit creepy in its bestiality-like image. 8-[
They need not be spiritual infants who are nourished by the bible.

Have you forgotten that a prepositional phrase ought not to begin a sentence, Ierrellus, at least not without a comma? :P
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Bob » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:21 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The Devil wrote the Bible".--MH
I never said I agreed with him. For me the Bible is a fat udder for spiritual infants. It can nourish if read carefully.

After listening to the Bible videos by Jordan Peterson, I believe that psychologically there is a lot in the Bible, but we have forgotten how to read it. Prior to the renaissance, people used stories to explain things for which they had no vocabulary.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:47 pm

Greatest I Am,

Your first is correct and Christianity has institutionalized homophobia and misogyny which Christians accept unthinkingly as gospel.


Do you see the individual? Do you see the part or always just what you consider to be the whole?
I have no idea what the statistics would be insofar as the percentage of christians/catholics who would believe homophobia and misogyny to be acceptable and good BUT not all of them would believe in that way. Sometimes it is a question of upbringing and not LEARNING TO THINK FOR ONE'S SELF. The main thing that these biased people are guilty of is not questioning what the bible says. It is called Ignorance.

You seem to agree that they are calling those evil good.


Look above. Perhaps you are correct insofar as some go but my main point is that they have no idea what they are even saying when they go along with these beliefs. As I said in the post above...

They are about growing up in ignorance, taking everything in the bible as literal instead of learning to think for one's self. They are about fear and mis-understanding.

As to Gnostic Christians being homophobic and misogynous, impossible.
We are universalists in our spiritual and secular thinking, to a lesser degree and cannot see souls as unequal as we have tied equality to righteousness.


So what you seem to be saying, as I read it, is that Gnostic Christians are kind of infallible and can have no biases, no wrongful thinking. How deep do you think the psyche or core of a human being goes anyway?

As to Dawkins.
He has the right moral view of the genocidal prick of a god, while I think he is only analysing the myth as literally as the Christian right without seeing the moral value of it, if, like Gnostic Christians, he would reverse the Christian take, which is more the way Jews see their myth.


Okay, I can understand that albeit I still do not agree with his approach. I also agree with and share his thoughts given in the below hyperlink. They shed a didn't kind of light on him. I will admit that I do not know a lot about him.

https://www.livescience.com/59455-richa ... ation.html

Ciao
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"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:26 pm

My last post was based on Greatest Iam's admission of having a Bible in his home. I wrote sentences that might evoke his response. I did not say that the Bible is never spiritually nourishing. Bob is right. One's attitude about the book depends on how it is read. It can offer ideas of brotherly (and sisterly) love or excuses for violence and hatred. I just wanted to see if GIA throws out the baby with the bath water.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm

We shall see what we shall see.

:evilfun:
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:20 pm

From reading Elaine Pagels and Hans Jonas on Christian Gnosticism I came to the understanding that it is just another mythology. I'm not saying the myths are bad or even in error. Choosing to believe in one or the other is a personal choice. Fundamentalist Christianity is now being challenged by many thoughtful progressives. Dawkins', et.al, criticisms of it are like the beating of a dead horse.
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