Numerology

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Numerology

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:46 pm

Numerology has nothing at all to do with:
Science - the social art of verifying hypotheses
Math - other than merely adding and multiplying numbers (even SG&E topics use more sophisticated math)
Technology - obviously

Numerology is entirely a philosophical ontology theory (and a poor one at that) .. when it isn't substituting for religion and spirituality.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Numerology

Postby Amorphos » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:29 pm

That's only true if something else is at work in the universe which isn't mathematically based. As that's not the case, then there will be a +/- maximum average amount of particles and a finite amount of possible interactions. Those interactions will be cyclical, where there is pattern [behaviours + rate of change and interaction] ~ everywhere.

The question for me is, have we ever known or can know how all of that works. I do think that numbers have behavioural qualities, and that any observable behaviour is existent.

I don't know if e.g. if the planetary cycles pertain to the apparent approximate numbers means something, or where to begin with finding the root of those numbers. For example, do we measure them by earth cycles/years.

I also don't know if one letter precedes another by virtue of their sound structure, or by what? Which alphabet is the one to use? or if sounds contain an inherent numerological value. They can I think be grouped into similars, which is what we are also doing with maths, e.g. 2 is a duplication of 1 [1,2,3,4,5,...], 3x3 manifests replica 9 integers and multiples of nine always add up to 9. so '9' has repetitive properties making it cyclic in that sense, which is what numerology largely does; it reduces down to a base number.

Then there we have the problem of bases, and what does it mean in real terms. In nature you don't get one 'snooker-ball' reality/particle followed by say 9 exact replicas, instead it counts straight to 3, positive/nuetral/negative and they have 3 different properties. It equally produces a universe full of these polar entities all at once [also manifesting cyclicity]. So far I got the meaning of '3' and the notion of denumerable amounts [due to the variance in qm and relativity etc]. We could denote numbers to sub atomic [like 6 quarks] and atomic particles as well as the non nuclear elements in the periodic table. I expect that mathematical 'complete' table would look very different.

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Re: Numerology

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:10 am

Just because something has numbers in it, doesn't mean that it is mathematics. Every field uses numbers these days. Numerology uses only the simplest arithmetic. It is not math.

And numerology is nothing even close to science, quite the opposite. There is no experimenting, observing, falsifying, or peer review process. It is merely imaginative speculating without any verification. And invariably fails the slightest critical scrutiny. It is merely superstition.

When a theory basically just says, "I think the universe is made of this stuff", and especially without any rational backing, it is purely a philosophy issue. It is not at all science. It doesn't matter if the "stuff" is geometric shapes, numbers, or little fuzzy bunny slippers. It is merely a proposed ontology and nothing else. Numerology doesn't even propose that "9 out of ten doctors agree".

It is simply not a science topic, whether correct or not.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Numerology

Postby Carleas » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:58 pm

I agree with your assessment, James. But then I don't think creationism is science, nor anti-GMO sentiment, nor anti-vaccine sentiment, nor any of a number of pseudosciences that are commonly clumped into the general category of 'Science'.

I take it your claim is really that numerology-related threads should go in the Philosophy forum or the Religion and Spirituality forum. I agree, but I don't agree strongly enough to require that every thread on numerology be moved to one of those forums (I also wouldn't have a problem with Flannel Jesus deciding to do so). I'd encourage those threads to be posted in Philosophy or R&S, and I think the responses they would get would be more on point if they were posted in those forums, but if a user sees their numerology thread as being most properly placed in ST&M, I think I would most often defer to their opinion.

Are there specific threads you think are particularly out of place?
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Re: Numerology

Postby Moreno » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:14 pm

Carleas wrote:I agree with your assessment, James. But then I don't think creationism is science, nor anti-GMO sentiment

See this is sneaky. Anti-Gm sentiment is pseudoscience. Well, of course. Sentiment is non-scientific. But if scientists, for example, think there are sufficient problems with GMOs based on the results of scientific research into the effects of GMOs and also weaknesses/biases in Pro-GMO research and oversight, then this is not pseudoscience. So your sentence functions, perhaps not intentionally, as if it is making sense listing conclusions about certain positions - for example anti-GMO positions - while actually not criticizing the better opponents of GMO and how they reach their positions. Now I realize that this is focusing on what might simply have been a shorthand summation and one that was not carefully thought out, in your case. But I think it reflects a sleight of mind on this kind of issue that does apply to many pro-GMO people and other 'we are the rational team' position-takers, if not you.
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Re: Numerology

Postby Carleas » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:42 pm

I didn't mean to be sneaky, and I used sentiment sloppily to mean something more like 'position'. I don't mean to say it's not possible to discuss GMOs scientifically, or in principle to oppose them on scientific grounds. Rather, in practice the discussion doesn't focus on the empirical results (because the current best empirical results show a strong and uniform conclusion that they are safe and their impact is net positive). Anti-GMO groups cite other anti-GMO groups without reference to reliable peer-reviewed studies and meta-analyses published in reputable sources. The arguments that come up in discussions about GMOs once the actual studies are examined are most often not science-based. For example, in the recent discussion of GMOs that you and I participated in, the anti-GMO arguments included that corporations can't be trusted and might try to eradicate particular groups using GMOs; and the precautionary principle that we have some uncertainty, and can describe scary worst case scenarios, therefore we should not adopt GMOs widely. Neither of these is a scientific argument.

Anyway, my point in bringing it up here was that the idea that the anti-GMO position is unscientific is contentious, I was sure that it would be rejected by anyone who takes the anti-GMO position (which, if I recall correctly, James did in our recent discussion).

I assume that people that accept numerology find their position to be scientific, as do those who accept astrology or reiki or communication with the dead, or any number of what are often described as pseudosciences. My point was just that we need to be careful in exiling positions we find scientifically empty from the ST&M forum, because someone out there may think that our own scientific positions are also misplaced there.
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Re: Numerology

Postby phyllo » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:39 pm

For example, in the recent discussion of GMOs that you and I participated in, the anti-GMO arguments included that corporations can't be trusted and might try to eradicate particular groups using GMOs; and the precautionary principle that we have some uncertainty, and can describe scary worst case scenarios, therefore we should not adopt GMOs widely. Neither of these is a scientific argument.
The forum is called Science, Technology and Math.
The ethics of technology is a reasonable topic of discussion. Therefore, the ethics of GMOs is a reasonable topic.
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Re: Numerology

Postby Carleas » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:11 pm

phyllo wrote:The forum is called Science, Technology and Math.
The ethics of technology is a reasonable topic of discussion. Therefore, the ethics of GMOs is a reasonable topic.

I concede this point, I was focusing only on science. And I do think GMO discussions qualify as science for the purposes of placing them in ST&M on that ground alone, but you are right that they are properly placed there on other grounds.
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Re: Numerology

Postby Amorphos » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:06 pm

I don't understand why discussions upon the properties and qualities of numbers, are not valid philosophical inquiry?

I also don't understand why science denotes numbers to e.g. atomic arrangements, and then says those numbers don't mean anything?

Until recently [historically] our assumptions of the properties of numbers have been based upon non-science, astrology and so forth. Whilst I don't completely dismiss them [e.g. China is so libra/dragon!], I think there is room for inquiry at least upon science based information.
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The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
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Re: Numerology

Postby Carleas » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:39 pm

Amorphos wrote:I don't understand why discussions upon the properties and qualities of numbers, are not valid philosophical inquiry?

It's not whether it's valid philosophical inquiry, it's a question of what branch of philosophy it belongs to. Is it a scientific claim? An ontological one? A religious one? That will determine which forum it should go in.

For ILP, it's a matter of organization. But it should matter for someone wishing to discuss numerology, as which forum it goes in will influence how people read it and how they respond. The same thread put in different forums will attract very different reactions and thus generate very different conversations.
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Re: Numerology

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:15 am

I never look at what forum a thread is in. I just click, "new posts" and read them down the line.
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Re: Numerology

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:21 pm

Carleas wrote:I agree with your assessment, James. But then I don't think creationism is science, nor anti-GMO sentiment, nor anti-vaccine sentiment, nor any of a number of pseudosciences that are commonly clumped into the general category of 'Science'.

I take it your claim is really that numerology-related threads should go in the Philosophy forum or the Religion and Spirituality forum. I agree, but I don't agree strongly enough to require that every thread on numerology be moved to one of those forums (I also wouldn't have a problem with Flannel Jesus deciding to do so). I'd encourage those threads to be posted in Philosophy or R&S, and I think the responses they would get would be more on point if they were posted in those forums, but if a user sees their numerology thread as being most properly placed in ST&M, I think I would most often defer to their opinion.

I agree that many other threads are also misplaced into ST&M merely because they use the word "science" or a number somewhere in the ranting. Ethical issues don't belong in ST&M just because they are discussing something that involved science or technology. Science has little to nothing to do with what one "should do", only with what has been or might possibly be demonstrated to be useful.

Since FJ is never around any more (not that he was ever around much), I had to bring the issue here.

Carleas wrote:Are there specific threads you think are particularly out of place?

:lol:
Yeah .. good one.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
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Re: Numerology

Postby phyllo » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:47 pm

Since there is no separate Ethics forum, STM seems like the best place to put ethics of technology threads.
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Re: Numerology

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:16 pm

phyllo wrote:Since there is no separate Ethics forum, STM seems like the best place to put ethics of technology threads.

I see technology as the opiate of governments feeding their lust for absolute control, so no .. it belongs as a social or government topic. Just because activist groups use a great deal of statistics data doesn't mean their issues belong in science and math.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Numerology

Postby Amorphos » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:57 pm

Carleas wrote:
Amorphos wrote:I don't understand why discussions upon the properties and qualities of numbers, are not valid philosophical inquiry?

It's not whether it's valid philosophical inquiry, it's a question of what branch of philosophy it belongs to. Is it a scientific claim? An ontological one? A religious one? That will determine which forum it should go in.

For ILP, it's a matter of organization. But it should matter for someone wishing to discuss numerology, as which forum it goes in will influence how people read it and how they respond. The same thread put in different forums will attract very different reactions and thus generate very different conversations.


fair enough ~ on the point of current distinctions between branches.

I think that 'what numbers mean' is science, but we have to sufficiently prove that before it can be an agreed truth/science. I don't see the arguments presented here as anything more than belief, as they just say [historical] numerology is bunk. We don't yet know if behaviours e.g. in particles elements etc, are fundamentally the same as behaviours of number-meanings e.g. 3 for polarity x 2 for quarks [6].

it would be good if people wasting their time with old numerological basis, actually looked at the world with 21rst century eye's ~ and then done the maths.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
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Re: Numerology

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:57 am

I think the biggest issue with numerology is lack of a standardization for use of operators!!!

What does 31 mean??

4, -2, 2, 3 .33... ??? Those are just obvious ones ...

What about consistency of operators and what they mean...


I always say this to pe and I think everyone else should as well.
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Re: Numerology

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:52 pm

Amorphos wrote:I think that 'what numbers mean' is science, but we have to sufficiently prove that before it can be an agreed truth/science.

"What numbers mean" is LANGUAGE, not Science.

The arbitrary assignment of what they mean is Quantum Physics (the new age replacement for numerology).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Numerology

Postby Amorphos » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:09 am

Ecmandu

Totally agree.

james
"What numbers mean" is LANGUAGE, not Science.


Language means what ever we want it to mean, numbers only mean what they say they mean [in math][well unless obviously if we make things up about it [herein lies the issue with numerology]]. Science is based upon that very foundation, that mathematics show us the functions of our world, instead of us making it up [belief].
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
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Re: Numerology

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:03 am

Amorphos wrote:james
"What numbers mean" is LANGUAGE, not Science.


Language means what ever we want it to mean, numbers only mean what they say they mean

Gyahd .. :icon-rolleyes:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Numerology

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:07 am

Amorphos wrote:Language means what ever we want it to mean, numbers only mean what they say they mean [in math][well unless obviously if we make things up about it [herein lies the issue with numerology]]. Science is based upon that very foundation, that mathematics show us the functions of our world, instead of us making it up [belief].


False. S is a slithery rune. It looks as it sounds.

Mathematics is a compression technique. Mathematics is an approximation of the truth.

We are ourselves the Truth.
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