Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Gloominary » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:30 am

Serendipper wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I mean at least the Hindus were able to explain what their pantheism meant.
They said the universe is God (the supreme being), in that everyone and everything is part of God's dream (or nightmare), or infinite, immortal God is simultaneously, (sub)consciously roleplaying finite, mortal you, me, that rock over there, everyone and everything in the universe/his dream/nightmare.
But these neopantheists don't explain in what sense the universe is the, or is like a supreme being, in fact they say there is no supreme being, but yet they insist they believe in God and the universe is it, it's preposterous.

What's preposterous is that a bunch of dumb junk magically turned itself into people. Hydrogen - A colorless, odorless gas that, given enough time, turns into people.

What's preposterous is that a magical sky fairy created something from nothing in order to stand outside it and somehow not be a part of it.

Pantheism is the only sensible solution.

Actually I prefer the term panvitalism. The "theism" part makes it seem like an object of worship or a god that is separate from everything else. There is no theism, but only vitalism. No god; just life.

There is nothing that is not god and there is nothing that is not you.

The maximum number of things in any universe can only be 1.

If there are two things, then they must be distinct things and distinct things are mutually exclusive and if they are excluded from each other, then they don't exist to each other and inhabit individual universes which brings us back to the maximum number of things in any universe is 1.

God cannot create anything unless it be a part of him. Therefore all things are god. Unless you view yourself as a pile of junk, in which case the universe is just dumb junk.

So is consciousness a complicated form of mineral or is mineral a simple form of consciousness? The answer to that depends if you want to insult yourself or not. If mineral is just junk, then so are you.

Well the cosmos is one in that everything we experience affects everything else, directly or indirectly, and everything is alive, aware and intelligent in that everything is in part spontaneous (at least on the subatomic level), responsive and organizes itself in very sophisticated ways.

Still some things within the cosmos are more alive, aware, intelligent and unified than others.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:05 am

Gloominary wrote:Still some things within the cosmos are more alive, aware, intelligent and unified than others.

Right, consciousness doesn't come from nothing upon assembling the right amount of complexity, but there is a continuous spectrum of degrees of consciousness with no zero being found.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:07 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:

Greatest
wrote:
It may not matter given the, what, 3 other sets of big 10 that are in the bible and likely a rendition from the Book of the Dead.

A Shieldmaiden
wrote:
Not quite sure what you mean. Can you explain this in more detail?

Greatest wrote:

Simple. There are more than 2, I think 3, sets of commandments in scriptures. Since the originating myth of the Jewish holy books is known to be from Sumer and Egypt, it follows that the ten commandments are a rendering of the commandments in The Book of the dead. None are the same and the O.T. Jewish set is a real ball breaker. No I no longer have a link to it so you will have to confirm these facts for yourself.


I had only read the Tibetan Book of the Dead. There is much discussion in my house regarding comments on this subject here on the Forum and it has taught me not to become complacent.

There are two laws.

The Law of Ten Commandments, and

The Ceremonial Law.

On Mount Sinai, Moses received both the law of God and a precise set of instructions for the sacrificial system and these were to form the basis of the religious ceremonies of the Israelites.

1. God wrote the Ten Commandments

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God (Exodus 31:18).

The two tables of stone were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant.


2. Moses wrote the ceremonial law, or book of the law

This law of types and ceremonies was written by Moses in the book of the law

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee (Deuteronomy 31:24-26)

and this was placed beside the Ark.

These two sets of laws, the one moral and the other ceremonial, were entirely different and served different purposes.

"The whole trend of the Book of the Dead is thaumaturgic, as its purpose is to guard the dead against the dangers they have to face in reaching the other world. As in most mythologies, the dead Egyptian had to encounter malignant spirits and was threatened by many dangers before reaching his haven of rest".
Enclyopedia.com

That is paganism.


All religions have pagan roots.

Moses was a myth and literalists are never right as they believe on faith and not on facts. Literalism is for those who do not want to know the truth.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Do you wish to talk truth or the lies you get when reading a myth literally?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:11 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I'll say it again, for Christians, Jews and Muslims, God is a supernatural being, and he created the cosmos.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmD9ZWDUsNY

If the supernatural were real, then you would have to see a matrix or Mandelbrot set universe and that puts God over God over God, --- endlessly. That is a Gnostic Christian theme. An argument really against the supernatural. It followed the ancient intelligentsia just as it does today.

Care to tell us what revelation turned God from an abstract for you and into a reality? When did you have your vision and apotheosis?

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DL

I'm an agnostic.

I'm participating in this thread to talk about what I think the bible teaches, not what I think about what I think the bible teaches.

Just because belief in the supernatural might be irrational, doesn't mean the bible isn't a book about the supernatural, it is.


I agree that the bible is depicting the supernatural and is therefore irrational.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:17 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:By the reckoning of the above story, god and Jesus are just claiming to be any other being that exists, no better or worse, no more powerful or less powerful and no more right than wrong.

Jesus is the right hand of god and the devil is the left. Satan is the district attorney and Jesus is the defense.



So you see both Jesus and Satan doing God's work. Interesting.

That is more of a Jewish take than a Christian one. Are you agreeing that Eden was where man was elevated and not where he fell?

Are you agreeing with this link?

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:53 am

Greatest I am wrote:I agree that the bible is depicting the supernatural and is therefore irrational.

Regards
DL
Then there is a problem with using quotes from that Bible to demonstate what Jesus really thought.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:38 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:I agree that the bible is depicting the supernatural and is therefore irrational.

Regards
DL
Then there is a problem with using quotes from that Bible to demonstate what Jesus really thought.


Indeed, but I am using the quotes that are basically inter faith as the meditation it promotes is found in most religions.

Anything can be used as a mantra and Gnostic Christians traditionally use the Jesus Chrestian good man archetype.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:17 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Indeed, but I am using the quotes that are basically inter faith as the meditation it promotes is found in most religions.

Anything can be used as a mantra and Gnostic Christians traditionally use the Jesus Chrestian good man archetype.
That's fine in terms of your use of the Bible. IOW you believe parts are true and others are not and you know which parts to listen to and which not, given your belief system. But you are turning to Christians who are not Gnostics, with the title of your thread 'Have you learned what Jesus and your Bible teaches?' and using as evidence certain quotes that you interpret out of your belief system. See, Christian, this is what your Bible says, there is no supernatural stuff. But the Bible very clearly intends people to believe in supernatural stuff, including about Jesus and that Jesus believed in supernatural stuff himself.

Now those who wrote the Bible may have presented a distorted image of Jesus and what he really believed, but the Bible as evidence is utterly undermined and it does not make sense as a demonstration to Christians. You can't use the Bible to show that Jesus did not believe in the supernatural. That's cherry picking. Further the cherry picked quotes themselves are rather open to a variety of interpretations.

It is just not the case, as you admitted above, that the Bible teaches there is nothing supernatural. Nor does the Jesus as presented in the Bible.

The quotes you quoted earlier can certain be used as discussion points on an interfaith level, but there's no demonstation of 'what the Bible is teaching.'

I don't really think the various meditations promoted in the various religions is the same. It certainly was not what I experienced and the language and specific practices are different, but that's another can of worms.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:32 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: You can't use the Bible to show that Jesus did not believe in the supernatural. That's cherry picking. Further the cherry picked quotes themselves are rather open to a variety of interpretations.

It is just not the case, as you admitted above, that the Bible teaches there is nothing supernatural. Nor does the Jesus as presented in the Bible.

.


The whole bible is a cherry picking from most of the religions of those days.

As esoteric ecumenists, we just follow that old tradition and given that Christians burned a hell of a lot of the older holy books, it has become a guide to what the ancient thinkers thought.

The bible is basically the only book, other than Gnostic writings, that speaks of Jesus.

No bible = no Jesus.

Do you want to chat about Jesus or not?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:53 pm

Christianity is unique, and real Christians ought to purge their churches of ecumenical and new age thinking.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:35 pm

Gloominary wrote:Christianity is unique, and real Christians ought to purge their churches of ecumenical and new age thinking.


If you know of the standard Jesus set for Christians to be his followers, with faith or belief, then there are no real Christians as Jesus said they could do all he did and more.

Jesus would look at Christianity today and reject it out of hand due to their homophobic and misogynous teachings.

BTW. the new age thinking that you might be attributing to Gnostic Christianity, is alder thinking than Christian thinking.

They usurped our God. We did not usurp their vile genocidal son murdering prick of a God.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:45 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Jesus would look at Christianity today and reject it out of hand due to their homophobic and misogynous teachings.
He certainly, according to the Gospels, stood up for a particular woman in a particular situation. But then there are no statements made by him challenging women's place in society or the religion. And there is nothing about homosexuality. So what you are doing here is making a psychic claim, a supernatural claim. He certainly would have had opportunities to challenge the OT on its sexist, homophobic passages and stories. Perhaps he did do this and it was not recorded. But we have no way of knowing he thought those things. Unless we know via some kind of supernatural ability.

Are you making a psychic claim?

They usurped our God. We did not usurp their vile genocidal son murdering prick of a God.
How could they usurp your God? They had a different religion from yours, except those who made Gnostic interpretations that you agree with.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:27 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Jesus would look at Christianity today and reject it out of hand due to their homophobic and misogynous teachings.
He certainly, according to the Gospels, stood up for a particular woman in a particular situation. But then there are no statements made by him challenging women's place in society or the religion. And there is nothing about homosexuality. So what you are doing here is making a psychic claim, a supernatural claim. He certainly would have had opportunities to challenge the OT on its sexist, homophobic passages and stories. Perhaps he did do this and it was not recorded. But we have no way of knowing he thought those things. Unless we know via some kind of supernatural ability.

Are you making a psychic claim?

They usurped our God. We did not usurp their vile genocidal son murdering prick of a God.
How could they usurp your God? They had a different religion from yours, except those who made Gnostic interpretations that you agree with.


I make no psychic claims.

I make a logical inference that a Jesus who pushed the Golden Rule, would treat women as gays as he would if he were a woman or a gay.

As to usurping our original Chrestian God ideas the same way Christianity usurped Yahweh from the Jews, I get that from this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... At-PAkgqls

There is nothing unique to Christianity as it is a religion that came from a consolidation of many of the older and wiser thinking systems.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:18 am

Greatest u r and Gloominary

Am I to understand that both of you believe in Evolution?

If so tell me, how does Evolution explain the origin of life.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:33 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:Greatest u r and Gloominary

Am I to understand that both of you believe in Evolution?

If so tell me, how does Evolution explain the origin of life.


In a better way than religions do.
I will admit that both religions and science have stalled at the big bang, that most major religions recognize as good science, and are now both positing their own versions of Gods of the Gap.

How do you explain talking serpents and donkeys?

How much supernatural garbage will you swallow before you recognize you are being lied to?

If you do not believe in evolution, a proven theory and now a law, then you are in league with the fundamental fools.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:24 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:By the reckoning of the above story, god and Jesus are just claiming to be any other being that exists, no better or worse, no more powerful or less powerful and no more right than wrong.

Jesus is the right hand of god and the devil is the left. Satan is the district attorney and Jesus is the defense.



So you see both Jesus and Satan doing God's work. Interesting.

That is more of a Jewish take than a Christian one.

Now that you mention it, I guess you're right. I suppose God has his own yetzer hara.

Are you agreeing that Eden was where man was elevated and not where he fell?


I have a novel take on the eden story. It wasn't that man became aware of the existence of good and evil by suddenly becoming smart, but that he asserted good and evil exists by becoming arrogant. It was the assertion that good and evil exist, not the discovery that good and evil exist.

God asked "Who told you that you are naked?" That didn't mean "Who revealed to you that you are naked?" but instead "Who convinced you that you are naked?" or "Who told you nakedness can be either good or bad?"

Eating the fruit was the birth of religion. The fruit was more of a hallucinogenic drug rather than a brain-boost.

It was definitely the fall of man. Now he needs to eat from "the tree of the knowledge that good and evil are bullshit" to regain ground.


That's essentially how I used to interpret the story. Now I see arrogance as the only possible sin, but I don't know what it's a sin against.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The only reason to have works (good works / bad works) is to brag either to other people or to god about how righteous we are. Works done consciously are useless to salvation.

Formerly I boasted before the guys of my sins, now I boast before the lord of my good deeds. Chains of iron traded for chains of gold.

Matthew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Proverbs 11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

Proverbs 14:3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:30 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:He certainly, according to the Gospels, stood up for a particular woman in a particular situation.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. That was one of my favorite passages, but I discovered it was added late. Some scribe pulled it from his ass and attributed it to Jesus.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:33 am

Serendipper

"Works done consciously are useless to salvation."

Salvation where you cannot save yourself suggests that you have been condemned for a huge sin.

What was it and was it fair for God to sentence you to hell?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:35 am

Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:He certainly, according to the Gospels, stood up for a particular woman in a particular situation.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. That was one of my favorite passages, but I discovered it was added late. Some scribe pulled it from his ass and attributed it to Jesus.


Have you dithered out what Jesus wrote in the sand and had him forego judgement?

Hint. What was missing for the case?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:37 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:If so tell me, how does Evolution explain the origin of life.

Life didn't have an origin.

How does theism explain the origin of god? God/life cannot originate.

If life could originate, it would have to originate from nonlife, which is impossible.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:39 am

Greatest U R wrote:

I will admit that both religions and science have stalled at the big bang,


Huh? please explain

that most major religions recognize as good science, and are now both positing their own versions of Gods of the Gap.


Huh? please explain
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:43 am

Serendipper wrote:

Life didn't have an origin.

How does theism explain the origin of god? God/life cannot originate.

If life could originate, it would have to originate from nonlife, which is impossible.


So..... how did man begin?
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:48 am

Greatest I am wrote:Serendipper

"Works done consciously are useless to salvation."

Salvation where you cannot save yourself suggests that you have been condemned for a huge sin.

Not necessarily. If the only sin is arrogance, then the only way to get to condemnation is to try to save yourself. We are not condemned until we suppose we are, then try to prevent it.

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

What was it and was it fair for God to sentence you to hell?

I'm a pantheist/panvitalist, so god sentencing himself to hell doesn't make sense.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You are your own judge and if you want to send yourself to hell, then it's what you want.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:50 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:He certainly, according to the Gospels, stood up for a particular woman in a particular situation.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. That was one of my favorite passages, but I discovered it was added late. Some scribe pulled it from his ass and attributed it to Jesus.


Have you dithered out what Jesus wrote in the sand and had him forego judgement?

I figure he was writing the sins of the people ready to stone the woman.

Hint. What was missing for the case?

The accuser: Satan.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:52 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote: Serendipper wrote:

Life didn't have an origin.

How does theism explain the origin of god? God/life cannot originate.

If life could originate, it would have to originate from nonlife, which is impossible.


So..... how did man begin?

Evolved from lower forms of life, but life itself had no beginning just as you believe God had no beginning.
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