There isn't really a muse thread.

Elevate form over function to get at less easily articulable truths.

Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:01 pm

Mowk wrote:I question my sense of value. What is it to have value? What scale would accurately measure it?

What makes a species valuable and which don't have value? 99% of the life on this planet has gone extinct, and it's just replaced by something else. That sort of implies that life itself is more valuable then any species or what they think.

I've watched a rabbit nip off flower buds along a row. The rabbit doesn't eat them, just chews off the flower buds. Oddly enough this makes the plant produce more flowers, and as a result more seed, giving it a better chance for survival. I can't see how the rabbit benefits from this behavior. It doesn't eat the plant or it's seeds. Is it a learned behavior? If not, how the heck did it become instinctual?

How can something as transient and fleeting as a thought have value? The ideas is only 1% of the work. Clearly what has the value is all the work that goes into turning an idea into something more then just an idea. Thoughts aren't much different. Sometimes they are impossible to hold on to. Slippery little buggers. In the middle of a sentence, poof, and they can be gone. And you are left with that dumb look on your face, as you realize you really did forget what you were thinking.



Perhaps 99% of natural processes are forgotten, in the myriads of time , leaving 1% , the learning curve having been broken by nature, leaving only 1% -by way of conversion into a genetic trait.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:46 am

a soft reply.
come on dig in with your teeth. chew on that steak. add some steak sauce if you like.

what value?
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:13 pm

What value?
The 99% have little or no value. Lets sail with that.
I noticed, having skimmed through the whole thing, that the beginning started with boats.
About , say, 10 years into my marriage, we were down at one of the beach cities, hanging out, and saw a ridiculously low price for quite a respectable boat. I don't really remember it that well, but it did have space , it was furnished and back then we had credit. At any rate, it was a golden opportunity to a hands on possession of a real dream that never happened. It became a signpost of a yet to be chronic downward spin on lifestyle.
Value? The spin itself was a signpost to a grappling with running , in order to just stay put.

What is that like? , most know, what it feels like, and some even what it looks like.

It becomes an illusion , you thinking you are moving ahead, yet things are really moving ahead while you think you are moving with it. Actually you are left behind.

How does that work& where keeping up takes all the energy, a serious case of myopia sets in, blinkers on, and angling for the finish becomes the primal focus. The very fast appearing nearside dismisses the progressive slowing of the far, and far from the maddening crowd, you alone become your own target: ambitions, and the works.

What value , where, the rat race, I think you bring that up in your middle part, again reference to Your pages, what possible value, where you the consumer, gleaning some part in the hierarchy, can value be seen?

Saw a movie 'Mosquito Island' years ago, and a similar one with Michael Douglas, forgot the name will look it up, (Falling down) and relay it, where people fed up take matters into their own hands, mostly with disasterous results.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:05 am

straying post?
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:50 am

OK.I read your posts in entirety and I comment like it was a book summary and where can my entry point be. That's usually the literary way to enter a post that's years old . To try to catch up , because otherwise it becomes difficult not to appear as merely a comment.. My impression on reading the whole was there was hidden unity, although aware that there danger lies in trying to simplify, by finding unity.

Let me ask You this: does Your life appear more a series of scenes , which you splice together as a totality, or, is there enough continuity there to not feel reduced to trite an attempt as comment in toto.

In either case there is simplicity to complexity and vica versa. That's just an general inquiry, as it pertains.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:18 am

Let me ask You this: does Your life appear more a series of scenes , which you splice together as a totality, or, is there enough continuity there to not feel reduced to trite an attempt as comment in toto.


To be truthful it depends which way I cast my attention. Forward it's pretty continuous. Backward, in to memory, it's more a series of scenes. So I don't know if I can answer the question so black and white.

Unity? Well a connection, which bounds haven't been fully explored or defined for that matter. But sensible, like an aroma on a breeze, or more like a shift in stance to maintain balance.

Do you think our sense of balance feels maligned? Five siblings and no recognition of the eldest. "Which way is up" is a fairly important consideration.
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:23 am

The balance mentioned before the unity falls neatly in place. It's hidden state makes me think it's purposive, some unseen power propagating it, so as to avoid a temporalization, in human terms.

As a result, the human being revolts against this and demands a natural disclosure , which never comes , and if it does at times, its distorted immediately to accommodate a present and presented pseudo apprehension of unity.

A necessity which can never become certain .

Families and resembling types and their descriptions, as singular ways of interactions among them have almost coincided with types of language games, with which to assimilate reality within incteasingly boundrd regions of our conscious efforts.

We try to expurgate our familial deficiencies by casting a wider net, with language we hope will net more familiarity , closure, affinity. It way have been insufficient in our primal family relationships, maybe the secondary versions will be different , with more room to give each other safe escape.

Maybe so, only children , spoiled , nut cast into a different net, where somewhat thoughtfully, attention is knowingly diminished by the proportional division divided by the number, had there been more then one.

But it may work with the father, but mom can't quantify. So there division but preceded by multiplying the net effect by five.(or the number of children in a family)
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:33 pm

I don't grasp where you jumped to family? And I'm not, to the best of my knowledge, a bastard. The connection is not limited to our species. We are symbiotic as are many species. We literally can't survive as individuals because we aren't individuals. Family has little to do with the connectivity we share in common. I'm more connected to the chipmunk in the backyard then I am to a sister who lives 2000 miles away. Sure, family to some, is a big deal, but it's learned and cultured.
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:16 pm

The jump is an existential jump from where we may be: tied into a proto-real shimmering value lime the nrams new Lexus that a neighbor may glean
from across the street to his neighbor, or peering disdainfully at my 2000 raggedy but well kempt wramgler. What if your lawn a sore compared with manicured and soaked ones, make you a pariah of the neighborhood, glancing with accusing snarls, even to the extent of targeting your daily walk with his unmuzzled attack bull , walking towards you, missing on your property. What if in the bright. unending sunshine of the California drought , he disregards what may be really a well intended green act of conservation?

The patently new ignores the deeper moss laden past of the tree's smaller circular indications of the trunk's beginnings. Who would guess the tree will die one day, and be dug beneath the earth by enormous ecological pressures, and over the course of millennia become a diamond in the rough , whose only value persists by its gleaming , hardened patina?

The family of resemblances finally erupts in a recognition that the only similarity among familial roots is the word, that supposed to have indicated the beginning.

The words we have to go by
The first thing we learn by having thongs pointed out to us. And that word covers millions of years of evolution. Quite an existential jump for a newby, and then when we reach toward the end, we are back to pointing to signs again. And in the midst of that, were supposed to act as if we were individuals, responsible for our selves and our own family. What a shock when we loose that family, even if we didn't actually belong to it, for mom or dad may have lost is or passed, or abandoned us, like god did later on .
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:11 am

I'd be a liar if I claimed to understand ALL of your perspective. It's looser and less metaphorical, and you involve a wider realm of influence then is my familiarity. I guess I'd question more the semantics of what you're saying far more then what I think you're saying. I am an idiot to think truth doesn't come in flavors. Same thing, perhaps different aspects.

Today I spent 4 hours getting struck from jury duty. Lucky my obligation is fulfilled for another four years.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt".

That is what got me booted. I'm not all that sure I am an authority on reasonable and I've got a lot of doubt about our current capacity to judge what is true.

I don't think the courts can adequately define what would be considered guilty or not.

Being there, with the defendant, in the courtroom, seems somehow to violate my notions of presumed innocence. It adds suspicion to the picture and I'm autistic enough not to understand that within presumed innocence. And all the games that can be played with human perception.

I am inclined to believe there isn't anyone who actually knows what's going on. The rest is bullshit, mine included.
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:47 am

Is it reasonable to doubt your perception?
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:13 pm

Mowk wrote:I'm not all that sure I am an authority on reasonable and I've got a lot of doubt about our current capacity to judge what is true.

A lucid man.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:09 pm

Mowk wrote:I'd be a liar if I claimed to understand ALL of your perspective. It's looser and less metaphorical, and you involve a wider realm of influence then is my familiarity. I guess I'd question more the semantics of what you're saying far more then what I think you're saying. I am an idiot to think truth doesn't come in flavors. Same thing, perhaps different aspects.

Today I spent 4 hours getting struck from jury duty. Lucky my obligation is fulfilled for another four years.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt".

That is what got me booted. I'm not all that sure I am an authority on reasonable and I've got a lot of doubt about our current capacity to judge what is true.

I don't think the courts can adequately define what would be considered guilty or not.

Being there, with the defendant, in the courtroom, seems somehow to violate my notions of presumed innocence. It adds suspicion to the picture and I'm autistic enough not to understand that within presumed innocence. And all the games that can be played with human perception.

I am inclined to believe there isn't anyone who actually knows what's going on. The rest is bullshit, mine included.



2 months ago a similar thing happened to me as well, jury duty up ended me in a civil case where injury was claimed by a woman who claimed for 250,000 damages for a small bump on the rear.professional doctors leAving their professions left their jobs and became professional witnesses because of the high price of medical insurance, and the former was lucrative. It was a circus to apprehend the way these doctors countered each other coming to opposite conclusions , using the same set of data. The jury was aghast, and confused, but finally came to a reasonable judgement based on no appearance injury, and only payout based on evidence of property damage.

As we exited the glaring hate of the woman and her lawyer were quite evidentiary of their attitudes based on deception.

I agree, presumptions have to be made, yet they are needed for utilitarian purposes. The thing is, the party who is more articulate and convincing is the one the jury usually finds for.


The presumption of innocence issue has come up in reference to the Mueller investigation just very recently, by conservative criticizing Mueller for using the very opposite of that legal maneuver, by accusing Mueller of presuming Trump's guilt. This is bad form, and gives ammunition to Republicans for bias, the kind which arguably can remove all perceived guilty parties, up and down the Justice Department, giving forey into Mueller's dismissal.

The mind staggers at the ramifications top to bottom.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:30 am

Mowk wrote:Is it reasonable to doubt your perception?


I think it reasonable to be lucid, at the very least to extend effort toward that aim.

Not always sure the target got hit. It seems so flipping far away how can one tell?
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:44 am

And every once in a while I go manic, rather then my depressed counterpart, and I get to savor a sweetness of life as peachy. Gotta be grateful for mania.

Only during these rare moments do I ever think anything I could think of could possibly come true.

Yet there will always and forever be that old gray mare. Some call her a nag.

Egging me on.
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:57 am

Hey Meno,

I haven't a clue how to build a bridge over a chasm I can not fill. {Sting sentiment}
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:06 am

One shovel full at a time?

And perhaps when the back is really sore, the best that can be mustard is a half.
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
in other words; to live as audaciously as possible while drawing the least attention. or at best, something vaguely similar.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:29 am

Mowk wrote:
Mowk wrote:Is it reasonable to doubt your perception?


I think it reasonable to be lucid, at the very least to extend effort toward that aim.

Not always sure the target got hit. It seems so flipping far away how can one tell?



You can sometimes, but not by telling.when it comes, fill in but not build a bridge from a suspended arch sitting on a middle base, rising to expected tension when two ends meet, add a little from one, then the other end, so as to feel the meeting of an emerging cupola, but reading the tension, as it creates a supportable balance, stronger then if, it beats its pressure down to a real upstanding single leg. Go inward toward the pressure, not outward, to the sides, let them be their support , stronger, unseen.

Draw an imaginary arch of where they will end up, rather than postulating on a pre drawn expected point.

Its more of an inner sanctum.

Up the ante, for there is little hope in synthesis.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 am

add a little from one, then the other end, so as to feel the meeting of an emerging cupola


If I could cross that chasm to add to the other side I wouldn't need the bridge or the fill. Flood it with water and float across?
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:17 am

Manic; it really is such a waste of time. Where do ideas go when they are not harvested? Can't seem to reap what I sow.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:15 am

Mowk wrote:Manic; it really is such a waste of time. Where do ideas go when they are not harvested? Can't seem to reap what I sow.



Probably the ideas get stuck, and then they come up from some source, unglued , a trigger , that is an controllable urge, may be, usually spring, in the season of and/or like a myth of springing from ahead, from vast catacombs of hidden memory, may be or June even April.

Athene born to Zeus for swallowing her mother
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:04 am

Now perplexing that not, really, a spade as in anti-jive, but then who knows. Help is on it's way says 411, however don't hold ur breath, unless doing some sort of mantra. In fact, we both know of reductionism where that leads, but if not here it goes: Very basic exposure of elementary logic, a basic difference, and either or, we may or may not.

Understand this: There may not be a remedy at that point, only an Rx of truly inescapably irrelevant, and non synthetic alchemical formula? And if perchance there is which i do not doubt in the slightest, there is no scintilla of evidence, that it has ever worked, it has always led to sorry end, the case of Manet and and his friend with a bitten off ear, or of seasons in hell
and friend, so elementary Dr. Watson.


Somehow now; it's makes perfect sense. That is cool. And sort of makes you go "hmmmm"?

Thanks Orbie
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:37 am

Mowk wrote:Manic; it really is such a waste of time. Where do ideas go when they are not harvested? Can't seem to reap what I sow.




Identity is difficult , but the ideas never go anywhere because they are nowhere. Nowhere, man, nowhere man, they are always reconstructed after a good night's sleep, from the vestiges of what remains the days before. Other then that everyone acts a role, he thinks appropriate for the occasion. Thanks for remembering. Does that mean that I am an inadequate or unconvincing actor in any stage , or on any stage?
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Mowk » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:00 am

I think that would be your call. I'm still catching up. Gotta think slow, trying to feel groovy.
Last edited by Mowk on Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
my goal in life is to die and no one notices.
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Re: There isn't really a muse thread.

Postby Meno_ » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:01 am

But striving to overcome self indulgence is possible albeit a rocky road, it does coincide with a pattern of manic and denied variations.

Fifty years ago before quantum time, such thoughts would have been labeled as folly.
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