Capitalism & Monopoly

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Gloominary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:14 am

Am I right?
It seems to me, monopoly is inseparable from capitalism.
The more corporations have, the easier it is for them to get.
The bigger fish eat the smaller ones, until we're where we find ourselves today, the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time, consuming from and producing for just a handful of corporations.
Today fewer corporations owned and controlled more of the economy than the day before, and tomorrow will be no different.
Capitalism is neither an egalitarian, nor an equitable economy, it's not natural, or organic either, nature abhors monopolies.
At its heart, it's a way for the rich to become even richer, often at the expense of the poor.
Don't let a few fancy gadgets and gizmos fool you, when it comes to the essentials, what really matters: food, clothing and shelter, in 2018 they're harder to come by than in 2008, and if we're still around at all that is, and WW3 hasn't taken place over dwindling, diminishing resources, or the economy, or the environment hasn't collapsed, 2028 will be worse than 2018.
Capitalism doesn't just need to be modified, it needs to be destroyed, and replaced with an economy that's fundamentally socialist and/or syndicalist, or for fuck sake Islamic, and I say that as an atheist, really it doesn't even matter, almost anything is better than what we have today, because what we have today, greed with little-no limits, will surely destroy the place on which we live and are bound.
User avatar
Gloominary
Thinker
 
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Dislocated

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:45 am

Wrong.

Do you like driving on smoothly paved roads,
In luxurious cars?

Do you like calling people across the world,
Using your shiny mini-computer cell phone?

Do you like more comforts and easiness,
Than ever before in the history of mankind?

Then you owe your Thanks to the 'monopolies' and corporations of Capitalism.


You are biting the hand that feeds you. You should be bowing in reverence instead.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Silhouette » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:08 pm

Monopoly is inseparable from Capitalism? Right.
And then you have pro-Capitalists arguing against a planned economy because it's a monopoly... :-"

Iterated trading games, even random ones, all tend towards it necessarily. It's not difficult to see how:

The object of "Free Market Capitalism" is for as many transactions as possible to be "consensual" as opposed to "coerced", but when consensual means whoever has the desired object wants to make a profit, they are necessarily going to be selling for more than was paid to employees to create it/provide it. Add to this the freedom to use psychological tricks to create/enhance a demand (advertising) and there is even more potential for profit and on a wider scale. Iterate this necessary case over and over, and you see money steadily flowing into the hands of those who "own" the businesses that create/provide all the things that people want/need in life (whether or not they actually even contribute to the product/service themselves). Iterate this steady flow and eventually all the wealth has pooled in the hands of the few. The few buy out their competitors, and you get these massive companies that own all the "variety" of goods outlets and service providers we see.

Monopoly is the endgame, fact. But let's not have a planned economy to stop this because it will be a monopoly :icon-rolleyes:
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Gloominary » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:37 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Wrong.

Do you like driving on smoothly paved roads,
In luxurious cars?

Do you like calling people across the world,
Using your shiny mini-computer cell phone?

Do you like more comforts and easiness,
Than ever before in the history of mankind?

Then you owe your Thanks to the 'monopolies' and corporations of Capitalism.


You are biting the hand that feeds you. You should be bowing in reverence instead.

Nearly every benefit has a cost.
Modern tech from automobiles, computers and phones to modern food and medicine has its pros and cons.
Some of it might be worth keeping, some of it might need to be modified, and some of it might need to be discarded.
Ultimately tho, if one of the costs of modern tech, is that we face earth's 6th mass extinction event, than it's not worth it, and we'd be better off had capitalism (which does seem to be one of, if not the best ways to get people to produce and innovate) and modern science were never invented.
I don't think we're living in some sort of golden age, I don't see it that way.
To me there's nothing all that new under sun, we have to work hard, get sick and die just like our ancestors did.

I'm a socialist and a syndicalist.
In many ways, capitalism forces us to be productive and innovative whether we want to or not.
If workers were in more control of their production, and reaped more of the benefits, we wouldn't have to be as productive and innovative, it would be more optional, as it should be, artificial scarcity is a great evil.
If it's more optional, we could produce, innovate and progress more carefully, more cautiously, which is how we should be progressing, if we should be at all that is.
User avatar
Gloominary
Thinker
 
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Dislocated

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Gloominary » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:27 am

Silhouette wrote:Monopoly is inseparable from Capitalism? Right.
And then you have pro-Capitalists arguing against a planned economy because it's a monopoly... :-"

Iterated trading games, even random ones, all tend towards it necessarily. It's not difficult to see how:

The object of "Free Market Capitalism" is for as many transactions as possible to be "consensual" as opposed to "coerced", but when consensual means whoever has the desired object wants to make a profit, they are necessarily going to be selling for more than was paid to employees to create it/provide it. Add to this the freedom to use psychological tricks to create/enhance a demand (advertising) and there is even more potential for profit and on a wider scale. Iterate this necessary case over and over, and you see money steadily flowing into the hands of those who "own" the businesses that create/provide all the things that people want/need in life (whether or not they actually even contribute to the product/service themselves). Iterate this steady flow and eventually all the wealth has pooled in the hands of the few. The few buy out their competitors, and you get these massive companies that own all the "variety" of goods outlets and service providers we see.

Monopoly is the endgame, fact. But let's not have a planned economy to stop this because it will be a monopoly :icon-rolleyes:

Syndicalism, which I also propose, is the antithesis of monopoly.
You can have a completely free, competitive market, in fact much freer and more competitive than the one we have at present, but redefine property, so it's impossible to monopolize, or for a few people to own tons and tons more than they need, and/or personally, physically use.
Small businesses would remain as they are, big businesses however would have to be partly or fully syndicated, unionized.

And democratic socialism can also be practiced in such a way, so as to support small businesses more than it does state businesses, or state businesses can be diverse, and compete with one another, like you could have several, or dozens of schools of medicine, all supported by the state, and consumers, from which to choose from, instead of just one.

And ultimately democracy means we all have a say in it, even if there's only a handful of state run corporations, so even still it's against monopoly, in that sense.

Furthermore, I am for powering down our economies, for localizing and greening.
I am a national ecosocialist-syndicalist, and more of an isolationist, not a globalist.
My socialism has little-nothing to do with mainstream socialism.
User avatar
Gloominary
Thinker
 
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Dislocated

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:34 am

Humans invented stuff and developed it. Since this has been organized through corporations in the last couple of centuries, one can argue that corporations did this. But it could have happened via other types of organisations of human inventors and workers, so I don't buy that. The status quo often looks inevitable and obvious and the only choice. Corporations get charters and the government used to revoke them if they were criminal or problematic in some way. But that stopped. It's a priviledge and revoking should return. We should, at the very least, have caps on corporate size and these caps could be very low down. Small flexible entrepreneurs, rather than these dinorsaurs tramping on whatever they feel like.

Corporate structure allows middlemen to make money off no labor. It currently allows ratios of payment that would have seemed obscene, even by CEOs, back in the 50s and back when roads were being paved with government funding, perhaps even workers being government employees for that matter.

Corporations don't have hands or intentions and they don't feed us We feed us, and this, now and for many years now via organizing ourselves in corporations. That was the pattern many of we organized ourselves to carry out OUR work and OUR innovations. It's like if me and my friends create an app sitting on chairs in a certain pattern in a room decide we didn't come up with the app, the chairs did. Not, not the chairs, the pattern of the chairs in the room. We send our profits to a Platonic chair form. Oh, you fed us chair pattern. Don't move those fucking chairs, it is the only way to come up with apps, you commie bastard.


We can do this other ways and we don't owe the non-living corporations anything, them being abstractions and not living entities, despite the horrific corporate personhood idea that, well, is idiocy itself made law.

I don't mind some people making more money than others.

But current capitalism includes a lot of making money for not doing labor AND fiat banking where banks can loan out unreal money and this then creates money they can then invest. The hallucinated money they loan out must be repaid or they possess your real objects and businesses and property. This puts way too much power in the hands of people who are not making a fucking thing. It also creates all sorts of unreal distortions out there in the economy. If someone wants to work their ass off and this entails them getting more compensation or someone else comes up with something more useful that what I come up with, I don't mind them having more money. But note the name capitalism. Capitalism is not coincidentally heavily focused on capital, on how to make money via ownership rather than work or inventing. I also would not completely close this off, but it is not a good way to focus an economy. And the capitalists now have more VOTE not the little 'votes' humans get, more influence over foreign policy, more control of media and thus what is taken as obvious and inevitable and who we should go to war with. etc.

So we think it must be so, because the people who benefit from it being this particular, oddly skewed and damaging form that it is nowadays, have the power to tell us this is it. This is the way it must be or you'll be living in Gulags. The utter void of creativity and false dichotomy worship is amazing.

And then other people locked in the system, even without much power, parrot the capitalists'
'truths'
and tell the rest of us that we owe abstract non-living entities for what we have all managed to do.

Brainwashed supernatural ideas about how things must be. We don't owe these ghostly contracts a thing.

Nor do we need to accept the parastical relations they set up. Fucking X factor Idol contests held at the society level, culling for talent, then claiming they are responsible for it.
Karpel Tunnel
Thinker
 
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:21 am

Gloominary wrote:we face earth's 6th mass extinction event,

So Capitalism and Monopoly is bad because all 7 billion humans are going to die in 10 years??

Bad argument, I don't buy it.

Capitalism and Monopolies are propelling the human population to new heights, people are living longer than ever before, people are healthier than ever before, the entire planet is thriving and greener than ever before. Everything is going in the right direction, and still fear-mongers and doomsday prophets claim that "we're all going to die!!! AHHH!!! REEEEEEEEE!!!" It's all bullshit.

Just because you are going to die, doesn't mean the rest of humanity is going to die. Doomsday prophets want to take humanity down with them, into their own downward spirals. It's solipsistic. The solipsist thinks "because existence is nothingness, because there is no faith, because there is no hope, so it must be for everybody else!"


Nope, it's just you who is bleak, hopeless, lost. The rest of humanity is fine. In fact, the rest of humanity is doing better than it ever has, in the past 100000000000000000000000000 years.


Humanity is doing better that it has in 100000000000000000000000000 years.

Think about that a minute.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Silhouette » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:43 pm

Petty pedantry alert (for fun and info): 100 septillion years ago is invalid, the universe is not quite 14 billion years old, homo sapiens are less than 500,000 years old and homo sapiens sapiens less than 50,000 years old.

Glass half full, humanity collectively has move wealth than ever and poverty as a whole is reducing massively.
Glass half empty, not all demographics are benefiting from this in proportion to others, many are having their access to this increased overall wealth frozen and even reduced.

There's good and bad, and there's relative extents of both.

We're greener than ever before? I seem to remember deserts are growing in size and unless something huge has changed we're still cutting down rainforests far quicker than we're restoring them, sea levels are rising and they have more and more rubbish thrown into them, huge coral reefs are dying, certain cities in the world don't have safe air to breathe, but yes - renewable energy is on the increase and fossil fuel usage is cleaner. What is the net overall increase or decrease? I would be very surprised if we were more green than ever before, but yes, at least there are valid glass-half-full arguments. Complacency due to them is a bad idea though.

The real question, which I don't think is clear at all, is whether all the glass-half-full facts are because of Capitalism.

Has Capitalism been around while many modern improvements have happened? Of course, to various mixed extents in different places. That's not the same question though, and it's not proof that all other possible economic models would have been worse had they been in place instead.

In my estimation, many aspects of the kinds of Capitalism we're seen have been highly valuable, but I also believe that such benefits aren't guaranteed to last uniformly just because they were appropriate over a certain time period. These things need constant revision, and alternatives need to be tried and tested relentlessly - just as in all other parts of nature.
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:55 pm

Those who are slave-minded, nihilistic, look at existence as inherently negative. They project their own inner-constitution outward, to the world, to objects, to other people. To the Nihilist, there is no hope, there is no faith, there is no progress, there is no evolution, and all actions are futile. However, their actions everyday contradict this, as they obey their own instincts and reflexes. It's more of a moping-attitude, a depression, an inner-weakness.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:39 pm

Capitalism and Monopolies are propelling the human population to new heights, people are living longer than ever before, people are healthier than ever before, the entire planet is thriving and greener than ever before. Everything is going in the right direction, and still fear-mongers and doomsday prophets claim that "we're all going to die!!! AHHH!!! REEEEEEEEE!!!" It's all bullshit.

Heights as in skyscrapers and jets. Are people living longer though? Didn't ancient Greeks live into their 80's too as documented in their written works? I'm not buying that we live longer in terms of years per se but more of us survive birth with modern medicine aiding sick infants. With all the man-made foods/chemicals, GMOs, and preservatives, are we healthier with an unprecedented rise in mental health challenges from eating disorders (anorexia/obesity), to gender identity crisis, to rising suicide rates? If people were healthier wouldn't they be happier and better adjusted to modern life? What do you mean the planet is greener with the ocean pollution choking off eco systems and deforestation bulldozing land based ecosystems away? Progress equals unprecendented pollution that is piled miles high and long in landfills the world over. Progress needs to cease and desist before the tipping point of our environment on a planet of finite resources reaches the point of no return, the well's run dry.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
User avatar
WendyDarling
Heroine
 
Posts: 6972
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Hades

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Gloominary » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:30 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Capitalism and Monopolies are propelling the human population to new heights, people are living longer than ever before, people are healthier than ever before, the entire planet is thriving and greener than ever before. Everything is going in the right direction, and still fear-mongers and doomsday prophets claim that "we're all going to die!!! AHHH!!! REEEEEEEEE!!!" It's all bullshit.

Heights as in skyscrapers and jets. Are people living longer though? Didn't ancient Greeks live into their 80's too as documented in their written works? I'm not buying that we live longer in terms of years per se but more of us survive birth with modern medicine aiding sick infants. With all the man-made foods/chemicals, GMOs, and preservatives, are we healthier with an unprecedented rise in mental health challenges from eating disorders (anorexia/obesity), to gender identity crisis, to rising suicide rates? If people were healthier wouldn't they be happier and better adjusted to modern life? What do you mean the planet is greener with the ocean pollution choking off eco systems and deforestation bulldozing land based ecosystems away? Progress equals unprecendented pollution that is piled miles high and long in landfills the world over. Progress needs to cease and desist before the tipping point of our environment on a planet of finite resources reaches the point of no return, the well's run dry.

Thanks for this thoughtful post, I find myself agreeing with you more than anyone else on this forum, overall.
User avatar
Gloominary
Thinker
 
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Dislocated

Re: Capitalism & Monopoly

Postby Silhouette » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:52 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Those who are slave-minded, nihilistic, look at existence as inherently negative. They project their own inner-constitution outward, to the world, to objects, to other people. To the Nihilist, there is no hope, there is no faith, there is no progress, there is no evolution, and all actions are futile. However, their actions everyday contradict this, as they obey their own instincts and reflexes. It's more of a moping-attitude, a depression, an inner-weakness.

Those who are master-minded, overlooking and controlling, look at existence from both positive and negative angles. They project their own inner-constitution outward, to the world, to objects, to other people. To the master, there is hope and faith, there is reason to doubt hope and faith, there is progress because the bigger picture is seen, there is evolution, no matter how futile things may seem upon sufficient analysis.
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence


Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users