What is Authority?

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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Guide » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:55 pm

“"Here is a good speech on authority:

Start at 8:45"


The group says, here, what is self thinking? Which is to say, can one at first make a distinction between more and less free acceptance of what is said by the speaker?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of (authority). Try not to think of a purple tiger. You can't help what you believe.”



The group would say that “thinking” something provides the only possibility of not accepting it. In other words, one doesn’t believe in the purple tiger only because they picture it, or reflect about it. If someone is young, it is more likely that they will not be able to set aside something they have reflected over, the free thinker, then, is the one who has a mature power to confront what is put forward without succumbing to it, while, so to speak, sleeping.


a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.



I run into a lot of folks online who are less concerned about my argument and more concerned about sizing me up as if that had anything to do with anything (ad hom).


It’s the trick of a sophist to hide behind “arguments”. Paid proponents in public debate. One always wants to know who, in the Delphic sense of “know thyself”, one speaks to. From a liar we can never learn about the self in the Dealphic sense. One can see this in most Platonic dialogues.Consider the case of the juryman: one wants the one who says guilty to say what they truly believe.

On the disinterested level, in Plato’s Sophist, one sees this play out beyond politics, in the sense of the impossibility to speak of the nothing, without the nothing being, i.e., in staying with the statement, there, where nothing external is at stake, the Sophist, indeed, teaches us something.

In this this member of the group only touches on the difficulties involved. The citation “a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.” doesn’t fit the case you adduce in the video. But this: “b. those who can reason, but don't for the sake of interested motive” (does fit.) In other words, it is wholly sensible to suspect a case where interested motive leads to sophistry. An obvious case of that being the tobacco companies interested in producing “arguments” denying the cancer causing nature of their product. (Note: the Climate Change case is not adequately parallel to the Tobacco case, since it is a one time event never played out, based on scientific expertise, rather than scientific results, but it shines light on the issues involved in the misuse of "logic" and assumed rules of reasoning [the latter are never acceptable to a serious thinker, since they must think anew every time they take up a subject matter [even this one, remembering they must also challenge the conception of formal contradiction and inconsistency at each moment])
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:40 pm

The group hesitates to direct its attention to the object of the group's distaste. It appologizes beforehand for any confusion this might cause the group.
"I am not fazed by myself. I have dragged myself through too much of myself to be fazed. Others are disturbed by the slightes articulation of themselves. But they are unfazed by the machine."
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Serendipper » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:28 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Oh I see... feminism! lol! How much more rebellious can one be than to be a feminist?

Depends on where you are. On certian colleges it's not rebellious at all. Other places it is. And it depends on what kind of feminist you are and the issues you are working on.


Pride is the point of feminism (the empowerment) and pride results in rebellion.

If you give an order to a robot, it has no pride and dutifully obeys.

If you give an order to a person, they might say "Hey! You can't boss me around!"
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Serendipper » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:18 am

Guide wrote:
“"Here is a good speech on authority:

Start at 8:45"


The group says, here, what is self thinking? Which is to say, can one at first make a distinction between more and less free acceptance of what is said by the speaker?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of (authority). Try not to think of a purple tiger. You can't help what you believe.”



The group would say that “thinking” something provides the only possibility of not accepting it. In other words, one doesn’t believe in the purple tiger only because they picture it, or reflect about it. If someone is young, it is more likely that they will not be able to set aside something they have reflected over, the free thinker, then, is the one who has a mature power to confront what is put forward without succumbing to it, while, so to speak, sleeping.

Kids believe in santa claus because the parents (authority) put that idea into their heads. Eventually the consensus of opinion among friends (authority) turns against the idea that santa is real, so kids stop believing. No one can dictate by power of will what they believe as if by sheer determination one can once again decide to believe in santa. Faith comes by hearing and what's heard comes from authority (consensus of opinion).

You think by thinking you can decide what to believe, but what determines the fundamentals of thought? Well, that's just more acceptances of axioms on faith and of which you have no control.

All statements must be backed by empirical evidence. So what's the evidence for that axiom? You either buy it or you don't.

a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.

I run into a lot of folks online who are less concerned about my argument and more concerned about sizing me up as if that had anything to do with anything (ad hom).


It’s the trick of a sophist to hide behind “arguments”. Paid proponents in public debate. One always wants to know who, in the Delphic sense of “know thyself”, one speaks to. From a liar we can never learn about the self in the Dealphic sense. One can see this in most Platonic dialogues.Consider the case of the juryman: one wants the one who says guilty to say what they truly believe.

On the disinterested level, in Plato’s Sophist, one sees this play out beyond politics, in the sense of the impossibility to speak of the nothing, without the nothing being, i.e., in staying with the statement, there, where nothing external is at stake, the Sophist, indeed, teaches us something.

A sophist is a sophia-ist or one who practices wisdom. Perverting the word in condescension to mean the opposite is akin to today's republicans deriding intellectuals as being stupid for lacking "common sense". The "professor" is the modern day "sophist". The very purpose of perverting the term is to implement the ad hominem.

"You're just a sophist and since I've labeled you such, anything you say can be disregarded!"
"You're just an indoctrinated liberal professor and since I've labeled you such, anything you say can be disregarded!"

In this this member of the group only touches on the difficulties involved. The citation “a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.” doesn’t fit the case you adduce in the video. But this: “b. those who can reason, but don't for the sake of interested motive” (does fit.)


How does one reason that they shouldn't reason because they have a motive to not reason?

In other words, it is wholly sensible to suspect a case where interested motive leads to sophistry.

Sophistry is quite different from lying.

An obvious case of that being the tobacco companies interested in producing “arguments” denying the cancer causing nature of their product.

Either they are lying or they are honestly presenting their side of it. You could be a sophist for alleging that they are sophists by implying their arguments are not.
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:47 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Pride is the point of feminism (the empowerment) and pride results in rebellion.
There's truth in that. But then one can join feminism to conform to the subculture you are in. One can do it to find an outlet for rage that really is about other things. Men can be feminists though they might say that men cannot be feminists to get Close to women, with or without realizing it, or out of guilt, or to feel good about themselves. Same with women. I don't Think most idealogies mean that one is a rebel and I Think one can rebel, in the right context or with the right attitude, with any idealogy or set of ideas. A communist in earlier versions of Russia would have to be more creative to be a rebel as a communist. But in the US it would require Little more than daring to say it in many contexts.

If you give an order to a robot, it has no pride and dutifully obeys.

If you give an order to a person, they might say "Hey! You can't boss me around!"
Sure and feminism has called into question implicit and explict orders and the right to give them for certain reasons, in certain situations, etc.
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Guide » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:55 pm

“Authority? Truth.

I'm going to take the whole cosmos because I don't care about dominating anyone, and it will be mine.

I'm going to make every existent a hallucination of eternal forms. The cosmos goes to me, and there's nothing you or anyone wants to do to stop it.”



The group says, this sense of unremitting authority as mere whim, or at the other end as expression of naked superiority and relativising of the others, was not the primary issue the group wished to reach. Rather, the uptake of teaching in early life, as what remains for decades or until death. In other words, what would, if taught during a period of greater maturity of the student-existence, not have been accepted. Then, authority and maturity of thinking as a road in the investigation, which ventures into what this maturity is. At first, from the observed things, more than the inner searching of the adventure into the intellect’s concept.
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Guide » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:37 am

Guide wrote:
“"Here is a good speech on authority:

Start at 8:45"


The group says, here, what is self thinking? Which is to say, can one at first make a distinction between more and less free acceptance of what is said by the speaker?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of (authority). Try not to think of a purple tiger. You can't help what you believe.”




The group would say that “thinking” something provides the only possibility of not accepting it. In other words, one doesn’t believe in the purple tiger only because they picture it, or reflect about it. If someone is young, it is more likely that they will not be able to set aside something they have reflected over, the free thinker, then, is the one who has a mature power to confront what is put forward without succumbing to it, while, so to speak, sleeping.


Kids believe in santa claus because the parents (authority) put that idea into their heads. Eventually the consensus of opinion among friends (authority) turns against the idea that santa is real, so kids stop believing. No one can dictate by power of will what they believe as if by sheer determination one can once again decide to believe in santa. Faith comes by hearing and what's heard comes from authority (consensus of opinion).

You think by thinking you can decide what to believe, but what determines the fundamentals of thought? Well, that's just more acceptances of axioms on faith and of which you have no control.

All statements must be backed by empirical evidence. So what's the evidence for that axiom? You either buy it or you don't.



The group must say, this account given by the group is false in its presuposed slick neatness: “Eventually the consensus of opinion among friends (authority) turns against the idea that santa is real, so kids stop believing.” Rather, among the thoughtful, such transformation has an inward source. Though, for the many: such “opinion among friends” wields more than power to change the way of relating outwardly.

“No one can dictate by power of will what they believe as if by sheer determination one can once again decide to believe in santa.”


The passion for thought leads out of the grips of many such concepts, but, also into many, through the seeking of the passion for confrontation with the strongest teachings of they who have moved the farthest amidst the transcelestial region of all thinking through flanked by their protective daemons coming close to the god who does or does not philosophise.
a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.


I run into a lot of folks online who are less concerned about my argument and more concerned about sizing me up as if that had anything to do with anything (ad hom).


It’s the trick of a sophist to hide behind “arguments”. Paid proponents in public debate. One always wants to know who, in the Delphic sense of “know thyself”, one speaks to. From a liar we can never learn about the self in the Dealphic sense. One can see this in most Platonic dialogues.Consider the case of the juryman: one wants the one who says guilty to say what they truly believe.

On the disinterested level, in Plato’s Sophist, one sees this play out beyond politics, in the sense of the impossibility to speak of the nothing, without the nothing being, i.e., in staying with the statement, there, where nothing external is at stake, the Sophist, indeed, teaches us something.

A sophist is a sophia-ist or one who practices wisdom. Perverting the word in condescension to mean the opposite is akin to today's republicans deriding intellectuals as being stupid for lacking "common sense". The "professor" is the modern day "sophist". The very purpose of perverting the term is to implement the ad hominem.




The group says this is no perversion, but the simple text of Plato, where Socrates often must deal with sophists who attempt to play the great and powerful OZ, ergo, the one hidden behind the curtain of argument.

“The "professor" is the modern day "sophist". The very purpose of perverting the term is to implement the ad hominem. “


The group says sophists were paid to make arguments. A professor who worked for a think tank in the pay of an interested party would meet this description.
"You're just a sophist and since I've labeled you such, anything you say can be disregarded!"
"You're just an indoctrinated liberal professor and since I've labeled you such, anything you say can be disregarded!"


Of course, anything can be abused. The group yawns and remains with Aristotle, he who despised often.

In this this member of the group only touches on the difficulties involved. The citation “a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.” doesn’t fit the case you adduce in the video. But this: “b. those who can reason, but don't for the sake of interested motive” (does fit.)


How does one reason that they shouldn't reason because they have a motive to not reason?


The group advises the group to take five minutes talking to a human being into account in the group’s reflections. Then such questions would answer themselves. The group lacks experience with human beings.

In other words, it is wholly sensible to suspect a case where interested motive leads to sophistry.

Sophistry is quite different from lying.


The group says, not in this context. Big Tobacco can rightly be said to have simply lied. Though, the means was sophistry.

An obvious case of that being the tobacco companies interested in producing “arguments” denying the cancer causing nature of their product.


Either they are lying or they are honestly presenting their side of it. You could be a sophist for alleging that they are sophists by implying their arguments are not.


Too much cleverness and arid generalization about what could be serves to take one off piste. The group says, the closest approximation to a use of reason on this public issue, on the business (or "conservative") side of the issue, it knows of, is Conrad Black’s. He gives a tolerably thoughtful account, i.e., one that does not flee into selective lapses of intelligence or hiding behind mere “argument” (i.e., sophistry).
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Re: What is Authority?

Postby Serendipper » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:30 pm

Guide wrote:
I run into a lot of folks online who are less concerned about my argument and more concerned about sizing me up as if that had anything to do with anything (ad hom).


It’s the trick of a sophist to hide behind “arguments”. Paid proponents in public debate. One always wants to know who, in the Delphic sense of “know thyself”, one speaks to. From a liar we can never learn about the self in the Dealphic sense. One can see this in most Platonic dialogues.Consider the case of the juryman: one wants the one who says guilty to say what they truly believe.

On the disinterested level, in Plato’s Sophist, one sees this play out beyond politics, in the sense of the impossibility to speak of the nothing, without the nothing being, i.e., in staying with the statement, there, where nothing external is at stake, the Sophist, indeed, teaches us something.

A sophist is a sophia-ist or one who practices wisdom. Perverting the word in condescension to mean the opposite is akin to today's republicans deriding intellectuals as being stupid for lacking "common sense". The "professor" is the modern day "sophist". The very purpose of perverting the term is to implement the ad hominem.




The group says this is no perversion, but the simple text of Plato, where Socrates often must deal with sophists who attempt to play the great and powerful OZ, ergo, the one hidden behind the curtain of argument.

“The "professor" is the modern day "sophist". The very purpose of perverting the term is to implement the ad hominem. “


The group says sophists were paid to make arguments. A professor who worked for a think tank in the pay of an interested party would meet this description.
"You're just a sophist and since I've labeled you such, anything you say can be disregarded!"
"You're just an indoctrinated liberal professor and since I've labeled you such, anything you say can be disregarded!"


Of course, anything can be abused. The group yawns and remains with Aristotle, he who despised often.

In this this member of the group only touches on the difficulties involved. The citation “a. there are those unable to think, largely taking their ideas from those they trust.” doesn’t fit the case you adduce in the video. But this: “b. those who can reason, but don't for the sake of interested motive” (does fit.)

But to dismiss an argument for any attribute about the person making the argument is an ad hominem fallacy.

Reminds me of the manifesto at zerohedge

our method: pseudonymous speech...

anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. it thus exemplifies the purpose behind the bill of rights, and of the first amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation-- and their ideas from suppression-- at the hand of an intolerant society.

...responsibly used.

the right to remain anonymous may be abused when it shields fraudulent conduct. but political speech by its nature will sometimes have unpalatable consequences, and, in general, our society accords greater weight to the value of free speech than to the dangers of its misuse.

- mcintyre v. ohio elections commission 514 u.s. 334 (1995) justice stevens writing for the majority

though often maligned (typically by those frustrated by an inability to engage in ad hominem attacks) anonymous speech has a long and storied history in the united states. used by the likes of mark twain (aka samuel langhorne clemens) to criticize common ignorance, and perhaps most famously by alexander hamilton, james madison and john jay (aka publius) to write the federalist papers, we think ourselves in good company in using one or another nom de plume. particularly in light of an emerging trend against vocalizing public dissent in the united states, we believe in the critical importance of anonymity and its role in dissident speech. like the economist magazine, we also believe that keeping authorship anonymous moves the focus of discussion to the content of speech and away from the speaker- as it should be. we believe not only that you should be comfortable with anonymous speech in such an environment, but that you should be suspicious of any speech that isn't.

https://www.zerohedge.com/about
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