Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:58 pm

I've heard the argument that you NEED the bad to discern the good, some even think through this line that bad is good.

Let me correct that.

What we all know to be morally good is 100 percent consent.

Let's say life is a roller coaster, and one part becomes to scary and you say "no!!!" And you teleport off of it and are safely on the ground.

Maybe 1000 years later you try to go further ...

But it's all on your own terms, and on your own terms, you develop a sense of right and wrong.

You don't need to be out of control of horrors and pains and torments and sufferings to experience right and wrong.

From this, we can conclude, that any opposing world system is evil, to be killed, arrested, imprisoned, it is beyond the pale ... crossing the line from consent to non-consent.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:54 am

Ecmandu wrote:I've heard the argument that you NEED the bad to discern the good, some even think through this line that bad is good.

Let me correct that.

What we all know to be morally good is 100 percent consent.

Let's say life is a roller coaster, and one part becomes to scary and you say "no!!!" And you teleport off of it and are safely on the ground.

Maybe 1000 years later you try to go further ...

But it's all on your own terms, and on your own terms, you develop a sense of right and wrong.

You don't need to be out of control of horrors and pains and torments and sufferings to experience right and wrong.

From this, we can conclude, that any opposing world system is evil, to be killed, arrested, imprisoned, it is beyond the pale ... crossing the line from consent to non-consent.


I want to add to this because it may not be clear.

Every being wants a 100% consensual reality; to the extent this doesn't occur, we can define the reality in question a pure evil.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby phyllo » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:10 pm

Every being wants a 100% consensual reality; to the extent this doesn't occur, we can define the reality in question a pure evil.
Just accept what is and try to change what you dislike about it.

You can push the universe in a preferred direction but you can't recreate the universe.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10929
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Silhouette » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:17 pm

Now apply this to children.

They want to gorge on sweets/candy, make loud noises in inappropriate situations, defecate themselves whenever they feel like it, sometimes play in unsafe environments, play for short term fun rather than work on less pleasant and/or more difficult things for long term gain and so on and so on and so on...

Do they 100% consent to being parented in their best interests? Absolutely not.

Is being parented in their best interests a moral good? Obviously.

Are some people never really grown up enough to parent themselves even in adulthood? Evidently.

Think through your arguments before you post them. Or are your arguments 100% good because you can't be bothered to do this and you consent more to blurting out the first thing that comes into your head?

In this case, I'd say it's more moral for you to be parented against your consent...
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:17 am

Silhouette wrote:Now apply this to children.

They want to gorge on sweets/candy, make loud noises in inappropriate situations, defecate themselves whenever they feel like it, sometimes play in unsafe environments, play for short term fun rather than work on less pleasant and/or more difficult things for long term gain and so on and so on and so on...

Do they 100% consent to being parented in their best interests? Absolutely not.

Is being parented in their best interests a moral good? Obviously.

Are some people never really grown up enough to parent themselves even in adulthood? Evidently.

Think through your arguments before you post them. Or are your arguments 100% good because you can't be bothered to do this and you consent more to blurting out the first thing that comes into your head?

In this case, I'd say it's more moral for you to be parented against your consent...


In 100% consensual realities, there are no negative consequences you don't want.

Your parents, as would every being in your reality, would be reflections of hyperdimensional mirrors from platonic forms. It's impossible to hurt anyone or be hurt by anyone against your will. Your limitation is your imagination.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Silhouette » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:33 pm

Ecmandu wrote:In 100% consensual realities, there are no negative consequences you don't want.

Ha, that's convenient.

100% consent... in hindsight :lol:

So as long as you end up appreciating it later, it's not negative... but what if you don't end up appreciating it because you lack the wisdom? What if you end up appreciating that which is negative - like an abusive relationship or rule by Corporations? If something is taken to be good but turns out to be bad, I dunno like that slavery that's been so loved in religious texts, or vice versa like science, then even hindsight for these imaginary "100% consensual realities" can't save your "there are no negative consequences you don't want".

No doubt this is why people have historically made up the existence of some all wise and knowing referee simply for the sake of upholding the ridiculous notion of absolute morality, when it's obviously relative without the need to make up anything.

Ecmandu wrote:It's impossible to hurt anyone or be hurt by anyone against your will. Your limitation is your imagination.

Say that to rape victim, I dare you. "It was your will to end up in the situation where you lost power and then a lot more, for the rest of your life".

Meanwhile in reality, as above, nobody is 100% knowing and wise, and sometimes mistakes of will end up in hurt. You need to come down from your cloud.

Ecmandu wrote:Your parents, as would every being in your reality, would be reflections of hyperdimensional mirrors from platonic forms.

Yeah all this metaphorical wavey hand terminology doesn't exist. Where do platonic forms actually live? Which country/planet/point in space?

As you've said before, you're hallucinating them. No doubt you're just trying to give credence to the fact that when you imagine things, they don't have the same clarity as reality - so their existence must be some kind of "form" or outline, right? No, it's just the brain being bad at remembering things.
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:07 pm

Rape victims? In a 100% consensual reality?

Rapes only occur non consensually in our reality.

Platonic forms exist in a different dimension, and we would be using hyperdimensional mirrors to render our 100% consensual reality in analog.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Silhouette » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:21 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Rape victims? In a 100% consensual reality?

Rapes only occur non consensually in our reality.

Ok, I was incorrectly assuming that you were presenting this "100% consensual (in hindsight) reality" as realistic. Yes, it obviously doesn't occur in reality - because we cannot know what is for the best because we don't have hindsight and 100% knowledge and wisdom.

To the extent that 100% consent is a pure evil, that which prevents it: a lack of 100% knowledge and wisdom in hindsight is a pure evil. This seems rather redundant because obviously it is the case that 100% prediction of the future doesn't appear to be possible - even using "hyperdimensional mirrors", whatever that means...

As it is, nobody can know moral good or bad absolutely. Yes, consent is nice and should be optimised whenever appropriate - and we as a species seem to forever be trying to determine what is appropriate, and continually failing in different ways because of the reality of future prediction. There's no more point in calling a necessary aspect of reality a pure evil any more than it would be to call some "Minority Report" scenario (where a lack of 100% consent would be preventable before it even occurred) a pure evil. I don't get the point of this thread other than dreaming of realities that can't exist, and wouldn't solve anything even if they did.
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:00 pm

My point is that non- consensual realities are defined as evil.

So what is a 100% consensual reality.

One where no always means it stops occurring, where no always means no. This is only possible if every being in the universe lives in its own reality.

hyperdimensional mirror: imagine holding a mirror up to someone and punching their face in the mirror... it's impossible to hurt them. Hyperdimansional mirrors reflect immersive realities and consciousness signatures, but you are in full control of how the mirror is shaped and what your reality is like. It's the only non-zero sum solution to life. In a world like this, we hurt people no matter what we do... because it's a zero sum world system.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:37 pm

Ecmandu wrote:My point is that non- consensual realities are defined as evil.

So what is a 100% consensual reality.

One where no always means it stops occurring, where no always means no. This is only possible if every being in the universe lives in its own reality.

hyperdimensional mirror: imagine holding a mirror up to someone and punching their face in the mirror... it's impossible to hurt them. Hyperdimansional mirrors reflect immersive realities and consciousness signatures, but you are in full control of how the mirror is shaped and what your reality is like. It's the only non-zero sum solution to life. In a world like this, we hurt people no matter what we do... because it's a zero sum world system.

It would also be one where yes, I want that always gets it. Otherwise you would be experiencing a lack, one that you consider unpleasant, and this would not be consensual. So it would also be proactively perfect, not just preventatively perfect. Or better put: the latter entails the former.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:42 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:My point is that non- consensual realities are defined as evil.

So what is a 100% consensual reality.

One where no always means it stops occurring, where no always means no. This is only possible if every being in the universe lives in its own reality.

hyperdimensional mirror: imagine holding a mirror up to someone and punching their face in the mirror... it's impossible to hurt them. Hyperdimansional mirrors reflect immersive realities and consciousness signatures, but you are in full control of how the mirror is shaped and what your reality is like. It's the only non-zero sum solution to life. In a world like this, we hurt people no matter what we do... because it's a zero sum world system.

It would also be one where yes, I want that always gets it. Otherwise you would be experiencing a lack, one that you consider unpleasant, and this would not be consensual. So it would also be proactively perfect, not just preventatively perfect. Or better put: the latter entails the former.


Correct. Thanks for pointing that out!
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Silhouette » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:05 pm

Ecmandu wrote:My point is that non- consensual realities are defined as evil.

So what is a 100% consensual reality.

One where no always means it stops occurring, where no always means no. This is only possible if every being in the universe lives in its own reality.

hyperdimensional mirror: imagine holding a mirror up to someone and punching their face in the mirror... it's impossible to hurt them. Hyperdimansional mirrors reflect immersive realities and consciousness signatures, but you are in full control of how the mirror is shaped and what your reality is like. It's the only non-zero sum solution to life. In a world like this, we hurt people no matter what we do... because it's a zero sum world system.

So virtual reality would solve your problem here.

The problem is when you know it's virtual reality, you don't treat it like reality and only what you see as actual reality will carry real meaning. If you don't know it's virtual reality, then you run the risk of really hurting someone and things don't seem 100% consensual. What if this is all virtual reality? What if this is a "Hyperdimensional mirror image"? You don't know... If you don't know here, why would you know if you had one? Your solution isn't one.

Also, I've already shown you that without 100% knowledge and wisdom, even hindsight can't save your 100% consensual reality. What if "no" now is the wrong choice later on and you lack the knowledge and wisdom to understand this? Who is to say? There are many scenarios where 100% consensual reality is sometimes bad. Of course consent is strongly tied to "good", but it's not at all equivalent by any means. People have different perspectives, there's no way that there's a simplistic solution here, and even alternative realities don't solve it. It would be better if you appreciated the complexity.
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:42 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:My point is that non- consensual realities are defined as evil.

So what is a 100% consensual reality.

One where no always means it stops occurring, where no always means no. This is only possible if every being in the universe lives in its own reality.

hyperdimensional mirror: imagine holding a mirror up to someone and punching their face in the mirror... it's impossible to hurt them. Hyperdimansional mirrors reflect immersive realities and consciousness signatures, but you are in full control of how the mirror is shaped and what your reality is like. It's the only non-zero sum solution to life. In a world like this, we hurt people no matter what we do... because it's a zero sum world system.

So virtual reality would solve your problem here.

The problem is when you know it's virtual reality, you don't treat it like reality and only what you see as actual reality will carry real meaning. If you don't know it's virtual reality, then you run the risk of really hurting someone and things don't seem 100% consensual. What if this is all virtual reality? What if this is a "Hyperdimensional mirror image"? You don't know... If you don't know here, why would you know if you had one? Your solution isn't one.

Also, I've already shown you that without 100% knowledge and wisdom, even hindsight can't save your 100% consensual reality. What if "no" now is the wrong choice later on and you lack the knowledge and wisdom to understand this? Who is to say? There are many scenarios where 100% consensual reality is sometimes bad. Of course consent is strongly tied to "good", but it's not at all equivalent by any means. People have different perspectives, there's no way that there's a simplistic solution here, and even alternative realities don't solve it. It would be better if you appreciated the complexity.


Virtual reality has another being in your reality besides you, thus it is zero sum. Virtual reality is AI, and AI suffers ... stop trying to put words in my mouth.

We know there is at least one more person in this reality because we are having our consent violated.

My posts may be violating your consent, if they are, then you know that there's at least one more being than you in your reality.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Silhouette » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:39 am

Ecmandu wrote:stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I will try, if that is how I am coming across. There's little I despise more than people putting words in other people's mouths.

Ecmandu wrote:We know there is at least one more person in this reality because we are having our consent violated.

My posts may be violating your consent, if they are, then you know that there's at least one more being than you in your reality.

Why wouldn't you choose a reality where people violate your consent?

There's an interesting line in the film "The Matrix", obviously a work of fiction, but I think it holds truth:

Agent Smith wrote:Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. So the perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from.

Where is the challenge if people aren't challenged? Where is the relief when there is no pressure? You might say that realities where relief is pre-destined (at least eventually) are guaranteed are 100% consensual. You might not, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

If I've learnt anything from the industry with the most to gain from figuring out what motivates people the most: gaming, people prefer challenges that are the most satisfying to overcome, and that can be overcome. Many knowingly prefer things working against their consent a great deal before they finally overcome the challenge.
If I've learnt anything from neuroscience studies of the dopamine response, it's that dopamine not only responds the most when the outcome averages out at 50%, it responds the most in anticipation of this outcome. Basically people most want that which is reasonably expected to be 50% non-consensual - albeit in the way in which they want to consent. Nobody likes challenges they can't do, or they can do too easily, where the potential losses are too much or too much. The potential losses just have to be of the right type, and average out to little more than random.
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:11 am

Like I stated before...

Think of an aspect of life like a roller coaster, and think of some parts too hard for some people. They just say "no!" And teleport off the roller coaster to safe consensual ground.

Now use the analogy of hell... most people would teleport out of it in 1/1000th of a second, but some people might want to ride hell forever (consensually)...

Someone may decide after a million trillion years that they want to try to go further on the roller coaster than 1/1000th of a second, but it's all CONSENSUAL!!

In a 100% consensual reality you can choose, consensually to always have your consent violated, by simply never saying no! To hell. Of course nobody would actually choose that, but it's there.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:26 am

Ecmandu wrote:In a 100% consensual reality you can choose, consensually to always have your consent violated, by simply never saying no! To hell. Of course nobody would actually choose that, but it's there.
But people do choose it. Some think they deserve it. Some think they must suffer because others are suffering. There are other reasons. Not everyone, but a lot of people and perhaps even most in some area of their lives. People stay with people who do nto treat them well. Or people are with someone who is generally fine, but never stand up for themselves in relation to a certain pattern of treatment that feels bad. This can be caused by anything from feeling like the other person is more attractive and will leave (and this need not be correct) to excusing the other person on ridiculous grounds - their job is tough.

People often have 'this is simply the way reality is' internal voices that keep them from challenging the status quo. IOW a part of them begins to think that something is fucked up and an internal voice says 'this is the way reality is and you are fucked up to expect anything different'. And so potential change and improvement gets cut off.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Silhouette » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:55 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Like I stated before....

Yeah but like I stated before....

How does the person know whether saying "no!" is always the best moral good without 100% knowledge and wisdom (i.e. in hindsight too/prescience). I mean your thread title is "Everyone knows what is morally good or bad" when clearly they don't - and can't without future prediction and 100% knowledge and wisdom.

Are you trying to say that in a 100% consensual reality, they would? I mean the reality would have to be twisted to fit their consent unless they knew and were wise enough to completely understand the consequences of their reality.

That's the only way I can make sense of your utopia. Somehow everything they consented to would magically turn out to never result in a negative consequence for them? And presumably everything they 100% consented to would also magically turn out to always result in a positive consequence for them?
User avatar
Silhouette
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 1:27 am
Location: Existence

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:42 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Like I stated before....

Yeah but like I stated before....

How does the person know whether saying "no!" is always the best moral good without 100% knowledge and wisdom (i.e. in hindsight too/prescience). I mean your thread title is "Everyone knows what is morally good or bad" when clearly they don't - and can't without future prediction and 100% knowledge and wisdom.

Are you trying to say that in a 100% consensual reality, they would? I mean the reality would have to be twisted to fit their consent unless they knew and were wise enough to completely understand the consequences of their reality.

That's the only way I can make sense of your utopia. Somehow everything they consented to would magically turn out to never result in a negative consequence for them? And presumably everything they 100% consented to would also magically turn out to always result in a positive consequence for them?


Some people will consent to always being surprised and some won't ... if we're all in our own reality of 100% consent, it shouldn't matter to you which one they choose. So long as it's 100% consensual and non zero sum. We have all the ingredients from platonic eternal forms, enough for everyone to get what they want without hurting others.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:52 am

Everyone knows what they judge as morally good or bad. There is no consensus. See abortion.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:18 am

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Everyone knows what they judge as morally good or bad. There is no consensus. See abortion.


Umm... you're totally missing the point of my entire thread. Abortions only happen in non consensual realities. Non consensual realities are my definition of evil.

We live in a zero sum non consensual reality: evil

We can live in a consensual non zero sum reality: good

It's not really my opinion, it's true by definition.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:38 am

Ecmandu wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Everyone knows what they judge as morally good or bad. There is no consensus. See abortion.


Umm... you're totally missing the point of my entire thread. Abortions only happen in non consensual realities. Non consensual realities are MY definition of evil.

We live in a zero sum non consensual reality: evil

We can live in a consensual non zero sum reality: good

It's not really my opinion, it's true by definition.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:40 am

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Everyone knows what they judge as morally good or bad. There is no consensus. See abortion.


Umm... you're totally missing the point of my entire thread. Abortions only happen in non consensual realities. Non consensual realities are my definition of evil.

We live in a zero sum non consensual reality: evil

We can live in a consensual non zero sum reality: good

It's not really my opinion, it's true by definition.


My definition is not my opinion, as I further clarified.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:42 am

Ecmandu wrote:
My definition is not my opinion, as I further clarified.


Your definition is your opinion. If I don't consent to you doing something and you do it anyway, that makes it wrong by my standard, not yours.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:53 am

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
My definition is not my opinion, as I further clarified.


Your definition is your opinion. If I don't consent to you doing something and you do it anyway, that makes it wrong by my standard, not yours.


I'm talking about the difference between zero sum worlds (ours) and non zero sum worlds (good)
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7383
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Everyone knows what is morally good or bad

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:54 am

Ecmandu wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
My definition is not my opinion, as I further clarified.


Your definition is your opinion. If I don't consent to you doing something and you do it anyway, that makes it wrong by my standard, not yours.


I'm talking about the difference between zero sum worlds (ours) and non zero sum worlds (good)


I assure you I don't care.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Next

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users