Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom back?

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Have we ever been free?

We have always been free.
2
17%
We have always been free, but now we are unfree.
1
8%
We have been only partially and/or temporarily free.
4
33%
We have been only partially and/or temporarily free, and now we are unfree.
4
33%
We have never been free.
1
8%
 
Total votes : 12

Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:49 am

MagsJ wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Deleted. Effort is wasted on the evil and retarded.

Agree..

I don't argue with minds like these, I mock them. :lol:

No, you avoid us.. always.

Bring an argument, or shut your mouth![/quote]



Woah! Mags says it’s on like Donkey Kong!
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:05 am

K: I can't even tell which part is more wrong because every word is just plain wrong....
when you attempt a coup on America, yes, you are a "domestic terrorist"[/quote]

UR: Actually you are the domestic terrorist. This is proved by how you recently excused death threats on this forum.


K: I gotta say, what a sophisticated argument you just presented..

"I am not a domestic terrorist, you are" a 5 year old presenting an argument...

way to live up to your ideals....nice job, I am sure your mother is very proud of you....

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PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:14 am

It's obvious and clear as day.

You backed WWIII death threats, wanting to "put a bullet in his head", not but a day ago.



You're pathetic, Commie scum. Everybody knew this is the direction things are going. But now it's black and white.

You're a coward, along with your brethren. All you have left are threats of violence. Now back them up. Show what you're made of.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:27 am

WendyDarling wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
iambiguous wrote:I don't argue with minds like these, I mock them. :lol:
No, you avoid us.. always.

Bring an argument, or shut your mouth!
Woah! Mags says it’s on like Donkey Kong!

Lol

True tho? If he can’t bring it, I’ll shut him down, but I fear he won’t go there.. with us. :lol:
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 am

Biggie is all yours.

All Biggie does is play word games trying to distract from the original issue, and attention whores himself. I always thought you enjoyed his routine, has that changed?
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they don't..... "- Peter Kropotkin
. :evilfun:
"you don't know the value of facts and you don't know the value of the ‘TRUTH”... " -Peter Kropotkin :lol:
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:07 am

WendyDarling wrote:Biggie is all yours.

All Biggie does is play word games trying to distract from the original issue, and attention whores himself. I always thought you enjoyed his routine, has that changed?

You thought right, but he never goes there where he wants everyone else to go.. often. :-s
Last edited by MagsJ on Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby fuse » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:08 am

Sleyor Wellhuxwell wrote:By "freedom" I mean first and foremost the freedom of thought and speech. And because every kind of communication is language, there is no other kind of freedom left. - So much for the definition.

If we have to wear masks, but don't want to wear masks at all, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we need to be vaccinated, but do not want to be vaccinated, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we are not allowed to say so, then we are restricted in our freedom. And if we are not allowed to think that either, then we are restricted in our freedom.

In other words, our freedom has been taken away from us. How can we get it back?

Or have we never been free?

*If we have to wear seatbelts (bicycle helmets, safety goggles, glasses, etc) but don't want to wear them, then we are restricted in our freedom. (But we gain reasonable safety standards that reduce risk and save lives.)

*If a surgeon has to wash his hands and equipment before operating, but doesn't want to, then he is restricted in his freedom. (But the surgeon and his profession gain the safety and trust of patients.)

*If we want goods and services for free, but have to pay for them, then we are restricted in our freedom.
(But we all gain a fairer, more functional and sustainable marketplace instead of chaos and plunder; we gain the possibility for such goods and services to exist in the first place.)


The measure of freedom is not whether I can do absolutely whatever I want, whenever I want. It is whether I can reasonably pursue my interests and make reasonable concessions such that others can do the same. There are many competing freedoms. The challenge is to find the best balance or harmony between them.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Where one's liberty infringes on the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of others, it is necessarily limited in a free society. Nothing new about this.

The issue here is about basic facts. Is there a global pandemic in which a novel virus has the potential to kill millions of people at an exponential rate if left unmitigated? Do masks help prevent viral transmission, and thus many unnecessary deaths? If you answer 'yes' to those two questions, then it's overwhelmingly reasonable to wear a mask when, for instance, you go to the grocery store. If you answer 'no', then you're free to speak your mind and support your case via the means that are legally available to you.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:57 am

Questioning the virus, mask mandates, medical practices, by established and prominent doctors, is censored on the internet and MSM.

So you are a liar and a shill like the rest of them.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Gloominary » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:44 pm

Like most things, I think about freedom shades of grayly rather than black and whitely.
We were most free in the 19th century.
We were more free in the 20th century.
Can we restore freedom to 19th or 20th century levels?
With mass civil disobedience, unrest and supporting dissident candidates, we can, but will we?
We shall see.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby iambiguous » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:21 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Deleted. Effort is wasted on the evil and retarded.

Agree..

I don't argue with minds like these, I mock them. :lol:


MagsJ wrote:No, you avoid us.. always.

Bring an argument, or shut your mouth!


I did bring an argument.

Here it is again:

iambiguous wrote:
What is your own reaction to the points I raised with Mr. Reasonable on this thread? Given a set of circumstances in which we compare and contrast the accumulation of human knowledge in the either/or world and the accumulation of personal opinions in reacting to that objective knowledge given the staggering consequences embedded in conflicting goods down through the ages.


MagsJ wrote: Minds and conversations evolve over the years, seeking different inputs to generate different outputs.. so why can’t yours’, when it comes to interacting with others?


Okay, let's bring this down to earth.

The role of government in the lives of citizens.

There is the classic conservative/capitalist frame of mind: the smaller the better. Then the reality: crony capitalism.

There is the classic liberal/socialist frame of mind: the bigger the better. Then the projected reality: it all withers away under Communism.

Now minds do change over time about this distinction. Marx rooted this "scientifically" in his assessment of the organic, historical evolution of the "means of production". Big governments are not even possible without the surplus labor around to occupy all the positions.

Now, in regard to our own individual reactions to government here at ILP, I suggest that is likely to be rooted in the arguments I make in my signature threads. We are all "thrown" -- thrown "adventitiously" -- at birth into a particular world. Utterly beyond our control. We are all indoctrinated for years to think this or that about socialism and capitalism. We all have different [sometimes very different] personal experiences, relationships and access to information, knowledge and ideas that shape and mold us into those who favor one political economy over the other.

There does not appear to be either a philosophical or a scientific argument that can take this diversity into account and establish the most rational or the only rational manner in which to think about it.

Right?

MagsJ wrote: You read and post on a lot of diverse philosophical topics, and yet you want to drag everything back to the beginning of philosophy, for others. You rebuke responses with your own intangible ones, and never seek to reach any resolutions of truth or disagreement, but work on a cycle of rebuke and repeal.


The "beginning of philosophy"? Again, given what particular context? Over and again, I note that my main interest in philosophy [and science and religion] revolves around this: how ought one to live?

And, given that, subjectively, existentially, I am an atheist -- "here and now" -- in a No God world.

Again: you note these accusations about me. Okay, choose an issue and a context that revolves around a discussion that explores our respective views on identity, value judgments and political power. How existentially they become intertwined out in a particular world understood in a particular way. What can we agree is true objectively for both of us and what seems more rooted subjectively in my philosophical assumptions regarding "I" in the is/ought world. And in your philosophical assumptions regarding your own self.

MagsJ wrote: Does a conceptualised thought have to be experienced, for it to ring true? as your real-world example requests, cannot always be fulfilled, due to that. Not every thought is actualised, and not every actualisation is necessarily just.. for thinking types.


Yes, but the "battles" that unfold between the liberals and the conservative here often do become actual behaviors chosen by flesh and blood men and women "out in the world". Resulting in "the staggering consequences embedded in conflicting goods down through the ages."


We synchronized our watches in order to resume it.

Note to Wendy:

By all means respond to my points above yourself.

Besides, I put this at the end of my "retort" above: :lol:

In other words, I was only in a joking frame of mind. Well, mostly. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Great Again » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:13 pm

@ Sleyor Wellhuxwell.

We have been only partially and/or temporarily free, because freedom is always relative. Now we are not unfree, but almost unfree. So it is again relative, although relatively near to unfreeness.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Kathrina » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:44 pm

Great Again wrote:@ Sleyor Wellhuxwell.

We have been only partially and/or temporarily free, because freedom is always relative. Now we are not unfree, but almost unfree. So it is again relative, although relatively near to unfreeness.

I agree.

fuse wrote:
Sleyor Wellhuxwell wrote:By "freedom" I mean first and foremost the freedom of thought and speech. And because every kind of communication is language, there is no other kind of freedom left. - So much for the definition.

If we have to wear masks, but don't want to wear masks at all, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we need to be vaccinated, but do not want to be vaccinated, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we are not allowed to say so, then we are restricted in our freedom. And if we are not allowed to think that either, then we are restricted in our freedom.

In other words, our freedom has been taken away from us. How can we get it back?

Or have we never been free?

*If we have to wear seatbelts (bicycle helmets, safety goggles, glasses, etc) but don't want to wear them, then we are restricted in our freedom. (But we gain reasonable safety standards that reduce risk and save lives.)

*If a surgeon has to wash his hands and equipment before operating, but doesn't want to, then he is restricted in his freedom. (But the surgeon and his profession gain the safety and trust of patients.)

*If we want goods and services for free, but have to pay for them, then we are restricted in our freedom.
(But we all gain a fairer, more functional and sustainable marketplace instead of chaos and plunder; we gain the possibility for such goods and services to exist in the first place.)


The measure of freedom is not whether I can do absolutely whatever I want, whenever I want. It is whether I can reasonably pursue my interests and make reasonable concessions such that others can do the same. There are many competing freedoms. The challenge is to find the best balance or harmony between them.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Where one's liberty infringes on the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of others, it is necessarily limited in a free society. Nothing new about this.

The issue here is about basic facts. Is there a global pandemic in which a novel virus has the potential to kill millions of people at an exponential rate if left unmitigated? Do masks help prevent viral transmission, and thus many unnecessary deaths? If you answer 'yes' to those two questions, then it's overwhelmingly reasonable to wear a mask when, for instance, you go to the grocery store. If you answer 'no', then you're free to speak your mind and support your case via the means that are legally available to you.

You already know that your comparisons "limp"? And the measure of freedom is always whether I can do absolutely whatever I want, whenever I want. Otherwise I would not have any basis for the measurement, I could not measure meine Freiheit. And when you are saying: "where one's liberty infringes on the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of others, it is necessarily limited in a free society", then you are saying what the communist Rosa Luxemburg was saying - meaning her own liberty that should be accepted by the society. Also, why do you affirm the freedom of society, but reject the freedom of the individual? Anyone, who wants to talk about freedom, must begin with the individual, not with the society. And the freedom of the individual is relative (see also: Great Again). But the amount of relativity of social freedom must always be greater than the relativity of individual freedom in this society. Never vice versa. And if it is the other way around, then dictatorship is at work.

Which is more dangerous for you: a society that tries to be as free as possible, or an individual who tries to be as free as possible?
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby iambiguous » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:03 pm

Yo, MagsJ! Yo, Wendy!

You're up.

You wanted an argument, I gave you one.

Let's get this thing going!!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby fuse » Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:33 am

Freedom isn't free - cliche, but true. Freedom has costs, and specific freedoms are necessarily circumscribed in order to allow competing individuals in a society to get the best balance of freedom *among each other.* Freedom of speech means that in general one can speak his mind. But should one feel free to shout his mind through a loudspeaker at his neighbor on his neighbor's property at 3am? Most people agree that there are reasonable limitations. Different countries circumscribe freedoms in different ways and produce different balances/trade-offs for the individual and a net effect for society as a whole that can be better or worse.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Sleyor Wellhuxwell » Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:47 pm

Some are more free than others. This sentences shows that freedom can only be relative.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Sleyor Wellhuxwell » Tue May 25, 2021 1:06 am

Sleyor Wellhuxwell wrote:Some are more free than others. This sentences shows that freedom can only be relative.

And currently freedom is approaching zero.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:33 pm

Sleyor Wellhuxwell wrote:By "freedom" I mean first and foremost the freedom of thought and speech. And because every kind of communication is language, there is no other kind of freedom left. - So much for the definition.

If we have to wear masks, but don't want to wear masks at all, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we need to be vaccinated, but do not want to be vaccinated, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we are not allowed to say so, then we are restricted in our freedom. And if we are not allowed to think that either, then we are restricted in our freedom.

In other words, our freedom has been taken away from us. How can we get it back?

Or have we never been free?

"We"?
I know you mean human beings, but that is not something I relate to as an "us".

Freedom comes from intelligence and resilience. Most people are dumber than dogs, and they are free to a corresponding degree. They dont know what freedom is and would die of shock if they found out.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Sleyor Wellhuxwell » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:18 pm

Freedom is a matter of relativity.

The personal pronoun "we" in my opening post should not hide this fact.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby promethean75 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:09 pm

What kind of freedom r we talkin about here pal? What, freedom from causality, from obligation, from physical restraint?
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Sleyor Wellhuxwell » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:34 am

promethean75 wrote:What kind of freedom r we talkin about here pal? What, freedom from causality, from obligation, from physical restraint?

So you are admitting that you have not read my opening post:

Sleyor Wellhuxwell wrote:By "freedom" I mean first and foremost the freedom of thought and speech. And because every kind of communication is language, there is no other kind of freedom left. - So much for the definition.

If we have to wear masks, but don't want to wear masks at all, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we need to be vaccinated, but do not want to be vaccinated, then we are restricted in our freedom. If we are not allowed to say so, then we are restricted in our freedom. And if we are not allowed to think that either, then we are restricted in our freedom.

In other words, our freedom has been taken away from us. How can we get it back?

Or have we never been free?
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:07 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Consider the biggest shills on this forum as an example:

1. smears
2. Sculptor
3. Kropotkin
4. Zeroeth_Nature
5. dorkydood
6. lamb
7. promethean
8. Shillouette

Does anybody actually care what these types post, or respect their opinions? No, because they prove time and time and time again that they cannot hold reasoned, rational debates. They cannot engage philosophy. They do not care for or about philosophy. You present them with evidence, and they play stupid kid's game. They ignore. They dodge. They stop reading. Then they accuse you of what errors they commit themselves. Ultimately, they cannot defend what they think or believe in or why. And that's why they are unnecessary for what matters and what is most important in society. A one-sided debate goes nowhere.

The Left can keep their "intellectuals". The Right only needs the philosophers.



honored to be among such company except iambiguous. the majority of americans are like us. it's your people that are in the minority.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby promethean75 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:27 am

Damn I thought there was just a poll. My bad. I should now answer thusly.

"By "freedom" I mean first and foremost the freedom of thought and speech."

The answer to this one is yes and no. Whatever you think or say is not an act of freewill, but so long as something doesn't physically restrain/prevent you from thinking and saying, you can be said to have that freedom. If you are able to do either of these you'd not be the cause of them, but free to do them nonetheless.

With the masks and vaccines example, being unfree to choose against them only means there may be some kind of physical restraint imposed on you for doing do, but that's it. It doesn't mean doing so is some kind of impairment of your freewill cuz there is no freewill.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby promethean75 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:53 am

But see this is the kind of silly shit people on the right baffle themselves with. I could name a hunerd restrictions already put on them by society and its laws long before masks and vaccines ever showed up, that they aren't complaining about.

But us stirnerite anarchists don't recognize this struggle because for us, damn near everything that moves is some kind of restriction already, so we don't kill ourselves trying to figure out what restrictions are reasonable and what aren't. They all suck. But what sucks most of all is listening to a conservative complain about some new restriction when all he does is what he's told any fuckin way.

The soft rebellion of the republican. He fights tooth and nail about a mask when he's already up to his neck in laws and restrictions. It's only because he's so lame anyway that it duddint matter if you add a few more (restrictions).

There is so much utter confusion in the conservative's mind about what constitutes an ordered society and when/what restrictions are reasonable, he'll only pick and choose restrictions that are inconvenient at the moment he feels like complaining.
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Re: Have we ever been free? If so: Can we get our freedom ba

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:48 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Questioning the virus, mask mandates, medical practices, by established and prominent doctors, is censored on the internet and MSM.

So you are a liar and a shill like the rest of them.



bruh people do that shit in public view all the fucking time are you high right now?
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