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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:28 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
now given everything I just wrote....
let us return to this question of experience...…

how are we to understand experience given what I just wrote?

each of us experience reality differently because we experience
differently.... we have far different experiences because
we have far greater possibilities today.....and those possibilities
are what create our modern ambiguities today...….

as a white, male born in 1959 in Minnesota in an
upper class family... my experiences were defined by the who, what,
when, where, how and why of my birth and life.....

so my reality is my experiences.... and your reality is your experiences...
which is different then my how are we able to create
a shared reality given the differences in our experiences?

by agreeing to a common future... a future where we both
agree that we should try to engage in and seek out....

it is not the past or present that creates our commonality, but
an agreement to a shared future.....I believe in inclusion of
human beings into a shared future... whereas others believe in
exclusion in a single and unshared future...….

but we are existing in a shared reality....

by that I mean, we are not separated by
existing alone, apart from each other...

we have a common future because I cannot
exist without you and you cannot exist without me...…

the political and economic and social existence includes
you and includes me..... we do not exist separately.....
we are dependent upon each other because of the
modern world dependent upon our shared work that allows
the modern world to my work,
in the grocery store, I deal with food that is brought in
from Asia and South America... think of the number of people
it takes to bring in cherries from South America, from Chile specifically....

if the chain collapses somewhere along the line, we do not and cannot
get cherries from Chile... for the system to function, must have every
aspect functioning.....that is not opinion but fact... if an airline strike
occurs, the ramifications goes beyond just people being unable to move
about, but food and goods can no longer travel around the world...…

the system is very complex and we know from personal experience
that the more complex a system is, the greater the possibility
of a system failure.... the greater the complexity, the greater the
possibility of failure.. that is the nature of systems...…

for a system to operate, to maintain itself, the system requires more and more
energy to maintain itself....not to grow but to simply hold serve requires
an ever greater increase in energy.... that too is the nature of systems.....

our understanding of experience means we understand that we
are fully involved in a wide variety of systems.. we must understand
human existence, both personal and collectively, as being part
of widely different sizes of systems.... we can no longer
think ourselves as being alone, apart from, isolated from

we must begin to make our choices and think about our possibilities
within an engagement with the various systems we are part of ……

every choice I make must be in regard to the system I am part of.....

as a father and husband, every single choice I make, must be in regards
to the system I belong to, which is the family system....

the next phase of human existence is about our choices
and possibilities of being within a multiple number of systems.....

and as the number of human beings increase, so does the number
of systems increase and the number of people within any given
system increases...….that is a fact of existence...…

these are realities that we share and must come to terms with together....

this is another point of our shared existence...… the experience
of being in the shared reality of the many systems we both exist within.....

we might not have been born with the same experiences but we do share what
it means to be in the American system and we share a connection being in
the capitalist system and we share being in the same existence of the modern
media and the share existence of our modern society....we might interpret
it differently, but we still share it.....

this shared existence within the many systems might help us create
a shared philosophy out of our different experiences...…

I have a crappy job and if you do to, we share something in common,
that is an experience we share together.....and we can create a
common philosophy due to our sharing a common experience.....

it is by our sharing our experiences within the many shared
systems that we can build a shared philosophy....

from the different experiences, we can create a shared
philosophy if we acknowledge that we have the systems in common....


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:47 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
if we agree to a shared possibility or choice, we
have created a share philosophy...…

from individual experiences to a shared agreement...
to a shared possibility...

that is how we go from our own individual experiences to
a shared philosophy.....


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:20 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
ok, so let better understand what it means to
accept or share a common goal or philosophy...…

we have a baseball team, we have 25 people with a
wide and varying individual and separate backgrounds or
different experiences...….this team of variously
different people with a various experiences.....

what can create a common philosophy or goal?

let us understand that by agreeing to a common goal or
philosophy, that is to win a to overcome
their individual and separate experiences....

they don't unite over their widely diverse and separate
backgrounds or experiences, they unite over a goal to
be achieved, a common united theme/philosophy of
achieving a championship.....

this overcoming diverse and different backgrounds and experiences
can be achieved by agreeing to a common goal or philosophy.....

so if you and I agree to focus upon peace as a goal or philosophy,
we overcome our different backgrounds and different experiences....

if we agree that freedom is the goal to achieve, then we overcome
our diverse and different background and experiences to unite over
a common goal or philosophy...…

this is the means by which we overcome our different and diverse
backgrounds and experiences.....


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:16 am
by Peter Kropotkin
in reading book, I came across this quote from John Dewey:

"The problem of restoring integration and cooperation
between man's beliefs about the world in which he lives and his
beliefs about the values and purposes that should direct his
conduct is the deepest problem of modern life"

another quote from Dewey, same book:

not a important concern...."a theory of values, but a theory of
criticism, a method of discriminating among goods on the basis of their
appearance and of their consequences"

and with this last thought, I am sure that IAM would agree with this....

BTW: the book where I got the quotes is: "Philosophy and the modern world"
by Albert William Levi.....the chapter on John Dewey....

Ok, the first quote about the integration and cooperation between
man's beliefs about the world in which he lives AND the beliefs and the
values and purposes that should direct his life

so for me, it looks like Dewey is saying we have two distinct and
different beliefs and we need to integrate them....we have first of all,
man's beliefs about the world and the second part is his beliefs
about the values and purposes that should direct his conduct in his life...…

so I have beliefs about the world in which I live in....

secondly, I have beliefs about the values and purposes that should
direct my conduct in my life...………...

I have stared at these two questions for about 20 minutes and still I
have no real answer, an answer as to if Dewey is right or if the two are
already integrated?



Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:43 am
by promethean75
Bro. Dewey was the first philosopher I ever heard of. Back in elementary school we were taught how to use the Dewey decimal system in the library. Rememba that? So I always thought it was 'dooey' or something... just part of the decimal name or whatever. One day I was like 'what's a dooey', and Mrs. Carter said 'it's 'dewey', and he was a philosopher.' and there you have it; the first philosopher discovered by little promethean. An American pragmatist, no less.


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:45 am
by promethean75
Wait wtf. That's not the same Dewey. It was some dude named melvil Dewey. Jesus Christ Mrs.Carter. and she was even a social studies teacher.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:39 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
promethean75 wrote:Wait wtf. That's not the same Dewey. It was some dude named melvil Dewey. Jesus Christ Mrs.Carter. and she was even a social studies teacher.

K: I feel for you Pro75.... I too have been lead to some "fact" that I took
as gospel and felt...betrayed.. when I discovered the truth....

but let us think about this.... does the "fact" that it was Melvil and not John
really changed anything... you have lived since grade school thinking it was
John Dewey who created the Dewey decimal system.... and once you
discovered the "truth"... what changed? a fact like this isn't the path to
any sort of wisdom that is needed for us to make judgements upon.....
it is simply a fact... and the fact changed and it meant nothing....

we are hung up on facts/knowledge... but at end of the day, do these
facts really mean anything? is your life really complete, now that you know
it was Melvil and not John Dewey who created the decimal system?

I can't think of any way that the changing of facts, from Mevil to John
can make any difference in your life.... and this is the point.....
to hold onto facts as some possible guide to what it means to be human
is not much different then the fact it was Mevil and not John Dewey....

and the fact that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun means what
exactly? is a changeable fact which doesn't get us anywhere..
we don't actually circle the sun at 93 million miles because the earth's orbit
is an elliptical orbit, not a direct circle... thus we average 92.96 million miles
from the sun and the important word is average... sometime we are closer and
sometimes we are further away...… now tell me this? how does any of this "knowledge"
benefit you in becoming a "better" person or a "wiser" person or how does this
knowledge help you in your quest to understand your place as an individual
in a complex systems that we all live in? what does the knowledge that the earth has
an elliptical orbit tell us about how we stand in relationship as individuals to

we go to school and learn all kinds of "facts" but we don't learn anything
about what it means to be an individual within a society or what it means to be
an individual and what is the individual's relationship to society?

the really important questions of existence aren't answered in school
nor are these important questions even pointed out as being questions or problems.....

How does knowing it was Mevil dewey help you to discover your relationship
to society?

I don't see it and I am guessing you don't either.....


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:28 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Politicians like to say they have solutions to the problems of today...
Bernie talks about his promise to end burden of debt on collage students....

ok, let us take him at his word... he is a politician and we should never
take politicians at their word... but let us take him at his word.....

let us take Bob... Bob graduated 5 years ago from a university and
has massive collage do we help Bob?

first of all, we must decide if it is even a problem that Bob has such
a massive debt...for his debt helps keep the credit cards and mortgage
companies in business... to remove his debt means to deprive them of
business and thus they will lose jobs... and we must at all cost maintain
the number of jobs... for that is a fact that we keep on thinking is somehow
important... is it?

but let us think about this in a different way...… we have one person in
financial debt from individual, hell we can do a million
things to take care of Bob's debt if we are talking about one person....
Bob.....but a problem, any problem grows in complexity with every person
we add to the, instead of just Bob being in debt, we have
a hundred people in debt in school loans... that number of 100 changes the
equation of what we can do to solve a problem... let us now say that the number
of people that are suffering from school loans are in the millions.... the very number
of people in an equation changes the equation.....

what we can do for just one person, Bob, we cannot do for a hundred
or a million when some politician says, let us end poverty..
the solution becomes dramatically different with the sheer number of people
who live in poverty who are part of the "problem".

we can solve Bob school debt problem with one person simply giving
Bob the money to end his debt.. or giving him a better paying job,
or to reduce the amount of debt... when the number of people in the problem
is small, the amount of work to create a solution is fairly small...….

but when the number of people involved in the problem is large,
the solution involves more and more and more people until it
involves the entire society.... to solve poverty in America will require
the input or the work of the entire society...… to solve poverty
will require the entire society to act if we are to end poverty....

it requires the will and consent of the entire society/population
if we are to solve such major issues as poverty...…

and how do we gather such consent?

the only solution is to reevaluate what it means to be as society...
as a society is our goal the capitalistic vision of seeking out
money and property and material goods as we can gather?

is the goal of capitalism really the goal of a society at large?

don't think of capitalism as a private, individual device,
think of capitalism as an entire societal effort to
achieve some goal.....

is the pursuit of wealth and material goods really what a society/state
should be attempting to achieve? if you have read me at all, you already know
my answer....does the fact that America have the highest GDP in the world, a fact,
really all that important?

does this high GDP mean that we are the "best" society in the world?
do we have honest, just, good citizens because we have we have
the highest GDP?

in fact, an argument can be made that by holding to the GDP as
an goal, we actually lower ourselves from being fully human to being
animal/human.... we reach down when we make the GDP as a societal
goal instead of trying to make our society just or freer or have more liberty.....

the goal we attempt to achieve as a society also tells us what kind
of society we have.. if we have a "every man for himself"
society, what does that say about us?

let us take as an example.. the Christian society.... we hold ourselves
to be Christian so we attempt to create a Christian society....
so, we don't hold to the GDP as being the objective of society....
we hold to meeting the goals that god has set before us.....
we must not break the ten commandments...

thou shall not lie,
thou shall not steal,
thou shall not kill....

let us imagine a society where we keep to the Christian goals....
we no longer hold to the goals of capitalism
which is the pursuit of wealth and material goods...

in other words, we can change the goals and what we are to
pursue by our choices of what our goals is suppose to be.....

we don't have to commit to a society where we attempt to
the goals of capitalism.... we can commit to the goals of
achieving a Christian society in which we would make
the end of poverty as a Christian goal.....

as we are now a Christian society, we hold to Christian ideals
and beliefs and so in light of these goals and ideals, we change
the point and purpose of society from the pursuit of wealth/material goods
to the pursuit of the Christian goals... which is to find favor in gods eyes.....

we can change the very nature of our society by our accepting or rejecting
basic goals.... what goals we decide to purse changes the nature and our
understanding of our position and place within a society...…

we can just as easily decide to pursue Christian values as we can
decide to pursue capitalistic values or we can change our values to
other values like the pursuit of justice or the pursuit of freedom...…

for some reason, we think we are lock into some goals/values that
we cannot for any reason change or remove... we can change our values,
we can change our reasons/purpose to meet whatever challenges or
problems or issues we like to meet.....

it isn't a question of if we can change, it becomes an issue of, do we have
the will to change?

what kind of society do you want to see? which really means, what kind of
values or goals do you want society to pursue or achieve?

and we don't have to think of society in terms of it being capitalistic
or Christian? we can think of society in terms of achieving other goals like
ending poverty or being just or trying to achieve freedom.... which really means
for people to be able to freely choose their religion or their political construct or
for people to freely pursue knowledge or happiness or the renouncing their worldly
desires as the Buddha suggests to achieve enlightenment.....

freedom to become who we are.... without the society forcing us to
accept the capitalism and the pursuit of wealth as the ONLY possible
choice for other words, we should be free to pursue that which is important
to us..... which then suggest that we do give people some basic monetary living
expenses or a basic wage to survive even if they don't work.... this means we would
reduce the national GDP but that comes from a choice we make and not because
of changes we are forced to make...…

the basic point is this..... we can choose what our role in society is
and we can choose our relationship to society if we decide to make that
decision...… it is about the choices we make... society isn't set in stone
and unable to change under any, society can and must
change under the influences of our choices we make as individuals.....

what kind of society do you want?

decide and then work to make that happen...

it is as simple as that...…


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm
by iambiguous
Peter Kropotkin wrote:people become democrats and cheer for the SF giants baseball team
and march the streets for Row vs wade.. not because they are making
logical, rational choices, but because those causes are causes people
desire by irrationalism and emotionalism....

when I fight IQ45.. it isn't done by being rational or logical...
I fight IQ45 because I am against him, emotionally, irrationally...

That we come into the world inherently, biologically equipped to feel and to express emotions is an objective fact of evolution. It seems clearly rational rather than irrational to point that out.

But the objective fact that some feel and express particular emotions about the Giants or abortion or Trump, while others feel and express conflicting emotions, is still seen by me to be a manifestation of "I" as an existential contraption rooted subjectively/subjunctively in dasein.

In other words, if you do in fact root for the Giants, embrace the right to choose an abortion and condemn the Trump administration, that is no more necessarily rational than those who root for the Yankees, embrace the right of the unborn to be brought into the world, and support the Trump administration.

From my frame of mind, using the tools of philosophy, there does not appear to be a way to determine if value judgments of this sort are either rational or irrational. Thus there does not appear to be a way to determine how one ought to either think or feel about conflicting goods of this nature.

Instead, the actual lived lives of particular men and women predispose them existentially to choose where they come down on the baseball and the moral and the political spectrum.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:12 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
one might even be able to reduce my philosophy to
the choices we make, as individuals and as a collective....

what choices should we make in light of what values we believe in....

if I hold to freedom as the primary values of myself individually and
as a society, then I having to make all my decisions in light of
my choice of freedom as being my value..... every decision is
made with the idea of freedom being behind it...….

should we ban porn? that depends upon the choices we make
as individuals and as a society as to what will help us achieve our goals...

if, if we make freedom as our goal to be achieved, then we cannot
ban porn.. because it restricts freedom..... if we are going to make
a Christian society, then we might, might consider banning porn....

that is what I mean by the goals to be reached, must be reached
by the values we individually and collectively decide upon..

now one might argue that our society is too fracture, so atomized
as to not be able to collectively ever to decide upon a course of action....
as this point we are barely able to get 50% of people to decide upon a
course of action, little less a society to decide upon a course of action.....

but I would point out that because it doesn't seem possible that it means
we don't attempt something...…. I personally, like fighting impossible odds
and causes.... I would rather fail battling the universe then succeed battling
some small cause like getting to work on time...….

if, if I had two hero's, it would be Daedalus and Icarus..
to fail by trying to fly too high... I don't see that as failure at all....
and after Icarus fell into the sea, Daedalus didn't give up.... he flew on
to Sicily and began the next phase of his life...…..

it is not enough to just be able to achieve some basic small goals....
we must dream big to achieve our possibilities...….an exploration of
what is possible for human beings will see some failure and that is ok....

it is ok to fail..... what are truly important values to you?

it isn't enough to dream about achieving such values..
we must attempt to achieve those values regardless
if we achieve or fail at reaching those goals or values....

success or failure is less important then our trying to reach the goal
of us achieving our values....

it is not enough to say, I believe in justice... one must
become and act upon justice at all times.....every action taken
or not taken, comes from having the value of justice as your guiding
value... if you act, you act upon the value of justice as your guiding principle....

how must I act in this situation? in every situation, with justice in mind....
so, we treat people with justice, and justice means equally,
and so every action is taken by treating people equally.....

that is what I mean by acting upon your values.....take that value
and judge every single word and action you take and base it upon that value......

and make that judgement be your guiding light even if it is against
the values/goals of your society/state.....take your values and judge
the society/state against your values...…



Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:46 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
scientific problems like the theory of relativity...
aren't philosophical problems like, what does it mean to be human?

to understand the theory of relativity is a good thing, but it doesn't help
one to become a better person or to understand your role within society.....

the how to of science isn't the why of philosophy.....

we cannot take the answers of science or math and try to use those
answers to solve the questions of philosophy...… 1 + 1 = 2 isn't
a philosophical problem.... it is a scientific problem....

thus the centuries long discussion of the extent, the width, the breath
of human knowledge that dominated philosophy from Descartes to Kant,
aren't philosophical problems but scientific problems...….
how can we know what we know isn't philosophy.....

the philosophical question is this, what does having knowledge tell
us about ourselves individually or our place in society?

the question of what do we know isn't about us in terms of us
asking, "What are we to do?" or "What values should we hold?"

so we cannot treat philosophical questions scientifically..
we can use science as a possible methodology, being through,
but we cannot use science as a moral guide for in how we
are supposed become human...…or upon what basis are we to live
out our lives..."How are we suppose to act with our fellow human beings?"
isn't a scientific question but a philosophical question...….
and it is important to understand the difference between
scientific and philosophical question...

and what does all this mean? it means we reject most of the last
century philosophy, from Russell to Wittgenstein and to the modern day
last grasp of logical positivism...

in other words, I reject the use of logic as being useful in our understanding
of philosophical problems....the use of logic cannot answer the question about what it
means to be human and what is the relationship between us individually and the
society/state.... logic and/or science cannot ever answer that question.....
it is a philosophical question and must be answered philosophically...


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:08 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
the scientific question regarding the "truth" or "falseness" of
something is irrelevant to philosophy...
philosophy isn't about "truth" or "false"

philosophy is about answering the questions that
face us as human beings, existential questions like "what does it mean to be human"
or "what should we do" or "what values should we hold?"


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:20 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
I see a dead body of an animal, say a dog... science can tell us how
the dog lived and how the dog died and how the dog impact
the world around it...…

I only care about what the death of the dog means to me...
I don't care about the how, but it care about the why....what does death mean
to me? how should approach and/or understand death?
what does it mean to die? the scientific questions, the facts
are really unimportant to me..... what matters is the question of
death, not how the dog died but why.....ask yourself, why... not how...


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:04 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
so after all that, we return to the question of experience.....

I am only interested in experience in so far as it tells me
about the why of life, not in the how...

How did life begin? let science go for it...
philosophy only wonders about the why of life....

all questions, all questions must be approached by the very
old journalistic idea of who, what, when, how, where and why...

and philosophical questions are no different....

does life have meaning?

who, what, when, how, where and why....are the questions
one should be asking.... how life has meaning?
or where life has meaning? rather strange questions, but
perhaps questions we might want to ask...……



Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:01 am
by promethean75
Well gosh I... I guess it doesn't matter to me if melvil invented that decimal system rather than John. I hadn't really thought about it until now.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:48 am
by Peter Kropotkin
promethean75 wrote:Well gosh I... I guess it doesn't matter to me if melvil invented that decimal system rather than John. I hadn't really thought about it until now.

K: what else have you taken for granted?


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:31 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
rushed for time today.....

we have our pursuit of happiness.. as one of the goals of human existence....
but as I have found out, sometimes this pursuit of happiness isn't all
that its cracked up to be....

I attempt to experience happiness by, say watching TV.. but after a while,
I get bored, so I try some other experience to find happiness, I paint..
but I find after a while, it is no longer an experience, but rather a chore,
not happiness, so I try another experience attempting to find happiness,
I go to parks and walk but after a while that is no longer happiness,
and I go through experience after experience attempting to find happiness
and after a while with all of them, I get bored or they no longer appeal
to me.... that is our search for happiness in a nutshell....we keep trying
new and different experiences, attempting to find happiness and only
discover ennui and boredom and tediousness and monotony....

we cannot expect some experience to be the path to happiness because
eventually it loses its interest...….

but we can search for something else...
and that is kinda the point, not the finding but the searching..
we need to seek something.... I would suggest something other
then seeking happiness....

but what?

now some have said we must seek wisdom or knowledge or
god or money or some other goal..... but what goal is worth
our time when human existence is so short....

indeed, what goal is worth our effort?


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:31 pm
by promethean75
Pete. What are we gonna do if IQ45 gets reelected, man?

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:19 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
my work attempt to kill me has failed....

I have several thoughts moving about my mind

upon reflection, what is this thing called reality?

we have metaphysicians who attempt to find the "meaning" of it all
by some attempt to find some overall, some overarching theme or
vision that is able to link everything together..... in other words,
there is one principle that links everything into one overall vision of
the universe....if we find it, all the problems of the universe go away...

so, if we find that one overarching principle be it god or the very first thing,
or Spinoza's one substance in the universe...…..we have "solved" the mystery of
the universe..... we have seen the "failure" of this particular path...

what one principle can we declare is the "one" principle of the universe?

what one "fact" unites the universe into a coherent viewpoint of the entire universe?

I haven't seen that one principle or fact that seems to unite the universe into
one overall or overarching principle that unites the universe into one "binding"
proposition that includes you, me, the earth, god, science, religion, faith,
nature, life, the universe...…..

it seems to be all so chaotic, disorganized, scrambled, blurred..
the entire universe seems to defy description... it cannot be pin down
into one systematic and coherent principle or theory.....

but why?

after 2500 years of seeking some systematic coherent
vision of the universe, perhaps we can't find it because
it doesn't exists, perhaps...…

so let us set that aside and think about other idea's or principles
that might allow us to explain or understand the universe/reality
we live in...….

perhaps we are thinking about this the wrong way.....

what if, what if the universe is a series of events....

for example, think about your individual life....
think of it as an event, not within some continuity of life,
but one isolated event that goes from non-existence to existence
to non-existence.... my life began in 1959 and will end at some point,
I cannot ever know when that point will come...but if I think of my
life as an event, like an atom that suddenly pops up and then
disappears, it makes more sense to think of my life as an atom,
that appears and then disappears then it does any other way....
if I think of my life as an temporary event, it does explain much
about my existence that doesn't make sense any other way.....

think about the house you are currently living in, I am in my dinning room,
as I don't have a dedicated room for my computer or an office, I write on
the kitchen table... the table I write on, that my computer is on, has a temporary
existence.. it too is an event... a event is something that suddenly goes from
non-existence to existence and then, at some point, to non-existence...
my table is an is my computer and my books and my smartphone
and the couch I sit on to watch my sports.....these events are temporary...
as is my life... I think of my condo, at one point in time, didn't exists,
this land where my condo now sits upon, was once just empty land...
there is a nearby creek and on this land might have been tree's and/or bushes
or maybe animals lived on this very land I now describe as my condo....
this site which now seems to be very permanent, isn't..... and at some
point in the future, this condo complex won't exists anymore... it is an event..
once it didn't exist, now does exists and at some point, won't be existing.........

everything we can think of the table, the computer, books, my water bottle,
the earth, the sun, ever the universe at one point didn't exist, then it did exists
and then at some point, the universe won't exists.... I will be long, long, long dead
when that ending comes.. even the earth won't exist when the end of the universe comes....

everything is temporary, everything is an event which has its existence in time,
at one point going from non-existence to existence back to non-existence.....

but then, what is thing we call reality, this series of events must occur
in some context... time/space is the context of our universe
going from non-existence to existence to non-existence....

think about it.... the universe is born, we call it the "Big Bang"
it went from non-existence to existence and if it came into being,
it will at some point, go into non-being....or as they say,
nothing last forever....

the very universe is an event... but it acts and operates within
the parameters of space/ is space/time an independent
aspect of the universe, outside of the universe?
or is space/time encompassed within the universe
and not independent of the universe?

once again, let us return to the beginning of the universe....

we have the birth of the universe, the "Big Bang" ….
then because of the properties of the universe, we
have certain rules.... in other words, forces that are created
because the universe as an event has certain properties....

the force of gravity is found within the properties of the event we call
"the universe".....gravity isn't something separate and apart from
the universe, gravity exists because the universe has certain properties
that created the forces which are the 4 forces of the universe....
the 4 fundamental forces of nature are Gravitational force, weak
nuclear force, electromagnetic force and the strong nuclear force.....

I suspect that we are missing one or more forces which is why we
don't have a clear understanding of the universe.....

all existence comes from the influence of the 4 forces...
we exist because of the 4 forces as they combine to create
the structure of the matter of the universe.....

the universe is matter... helium, water, and the universe is made up
of energy..... as we know from Einstein that matter and energy is the same...

energy = matter.....matter/energy.....

we, the planets, the stars, the TV are all simply matter/energy that
is an event that is temporary.....the way we come together as
matter/energy is from the 4 forces of universe combining in some fashion
to create said matter/energy.....we exist as human beings because of the
four fundamental forces combining in some fashion and combining with
the already existing matter/energy...…. this existing matter/energy can
be combined into a vast, almost limitless number of different combinations....
we are basically blocks of Lagos that can be combine and recombined into
a vast number of material things... our very cells can be combined into
the couch or the table or the rubber band on my table or my computer or
any other vast possibility of matter/energy.....we are simply events that
is as temporary as any other event in the universe...

some events might last longer then other events, such as the life span
of the fly is far shorter then the life span of a human being, but they are
both simply events that occur because of the influence of the four forces
of the universe acting upon the matter/energy that already exists from the
Big bang....

but what does this mean?


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:16 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
had a few things to do like feed the cat.... cats don't care
if you just had the greatest thought in the history of mankind,
you are suppose to feed them and feed them now...…

ok, so we have this idea that matter/energy is event..
which is one that exist within time/space....

(I for one have always thought that the 4 of them,
matter/energy and space/time might have an connection...
an equation as it were..... perhaps it might go like this....

Matter/energy which is M/E.. and space/time which is S/T....

so we might have our equation go like....

M/E = S/T...…

Or perhaps something like this as I see an connection between
matter and space..... and energy and time.....

so it might go like this...… M/S = E/T...….

As space seems to be a physical thing like matter and energy seems
to be similar to Time as it is more about movement...….
so we can connect M/S much easier then we can connect M/E..
but also we can connect E/T much easier then we can connect
S/T...… but given that we know from Einstein that matter and energy
is the same and we can suspect that space and time are one and the same,
that in the end, all four.... ummmmm….
like the 4 forces of nature …. we have Gravitational force, the weak nuclear force,
the electromagnetic force and the strong nuclear force... we seem to have
the four forces like energy/matter and space/ time are four of the
same forces...… that would seem to connect to each other...…

but how does this connect to the idea that all matter is simple
an event of x amount of duration.....that X amount can be short or it
can be very long..... the duration of an event is caused by the
forces of the four fundamental forces the universe.... strong nuclear force,
gravitational force....etc..etc.....

now one might say, Kropotkin, you are completely and absolutely wrong...
there is no proof of any of what you what?

I am not trying to demonstrate the existence of something, I am
simply trying to create a theory which is then meant to
be found true or not true by the evidence......and it isn't my place
to prove or disprove my theory... I simply present it.... you can do whatever
you want with it....

so, we have events in time/space.... how do the events seem to create
a flow, how do events seem to flow from one to another?

we are not just isolated events, not connected to other events,
just like we have seasons and the rotation of the stars and
human events that seem to logically bring about the next events...
there seems to be a continuation of reality that doesn't seem to
exist if we accept the idea of matter/human beings being random,
isolated events as you suggest.....

the history of the nation of America seems to flow from events to events
like the history of our nation seems to flow from the Civil war to today....
we can explain, describe the way of the American state/people by
referring to the Civil war although the Civil war was over 150 years ago.....

how do we connect the Civil war with what is going on today if we are a
series of random and isolated events that occur within time/space?

think about it... the events do happen, the Civil war did happen..
but it happened in time/space.. that is what has been carried to today..
time/space has carried the event of the Civil are to today...
not the human beings that have come and gone since then...
the human beings, those temporary events that have occurred in those
150 years......think of it this way...… we know the "history" of the Greeks..
think of the long Peloponnesian war between Athens and Sparta....
now think of that event as an event... how did that event create any
change in the fall of Rome? Historical events are also temporary, limited events...
they are just as isolated from each other as my birth is isolated from the birth
of Spinoza or the birth of Descartes.... we have distinct and separate events
that have nothing to do with each other.. just as the Peloponnesian war, as an event,
has nothing to do with our Civil war or with the impeachment of Nixon... as events....

you might think that there is some sort of connection between those events..
and that connection? is you... you are the one that has connected those separate
and isolated events.... as an event that exists within "history" which is time/space...
we can, in some crude manner, connect other events in history to our current
existence as an event.....but not as being a connection from event to event...
no, as the events exists within space/time.. which is the connection between
two separate and isolated events... space/time is the connection between
two distinct and separate events.. as space/time flow from past to present and
onto the future.... it isn't the events that carry time onwards, it is space/time...

think of space/time as long, very long tunnel... and within that tunnel lies
events like my birth and the Civil war and the existence of Sparta...
the events are temporary, isolated, apart from each other....but within
space/time.... the events are connected.... within the tunnel of space/time....

am I right? who knows? I certainly won't know within my lifetime..
and that is the next problem that needs to be addressed, which is this
question of certainty/uncertainty...…….


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:33 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
my life is like an atom.... a random, chaotic event...
it appears, it last X amount of time, then disappears....

think about history.... exactly how many people have actually
somehow influenced history? for most people, the vast number of
human beings that has existed in history, they were born, they lived
and they died... no different then atoms....but because of the
other stuff which we call cities and ism's and ideologies and history,
we don't see ourselves as atoms.....we see ourselves as part of cities
and ism's and ideologies and history and economics and...…..

but are we? the modern disconnect we feel, the alienation
that most people feel might be the real deal.... in other words,
that is our true self... the past where we didn't think of ourselves
as atoms is a false past... our disconnect and alienation is a sign
that we are no longer "hidden" from who we are... simply random,
atoms that appear and disappear as the case may be...….

as I think of my life.. exactly how many people have I actually
impacted? I would say very few....we have 7 billion human beings
living on planet earth and I have had actual contact with .000000000000001%
of them....(that number is a guess btw, the actual number is probably far smaller)

the real question becomes this: how do we no longer become just
random, chaotic atoms?

personally, I am just one random in the midst of
billions of other random atoms.... how do we begin the process and it is
a process, of no longer being random atoms?

as I look at the living room, I see a vacuum cleaner.. just sitting there..
in the middle of the room.. it just sits there, interacting with nothing....
how would I get that vacuum cleaner to actually interact with its environment?

we would turn it on and use it... to vacuum the carpet....

now I am putting myself in the place of the vacuum cleaner... I stand there.
I isolated and separate from the living room... an random atom.. in the midst of
non-moving atoms that are all about the living room...the couch, the bookstands,
the many books, the carpet, the two lamps, although I can't see the TV from the
kitchen table, I know its there...…...I see the towels on the couch my daughter said
she would put away two days ago... and they are still there......I see the lizards cage
where Norman, my daughters pet Gecko lives... he isn't moving right now.... actually,
he rarely ever moves.... except when she feeds him a live worm...…

anyway.... the living room is filled with stationary, immobile, inanimate
objects... nothing moves on it own... to make anything happen in my living
room, I must interact with it, I must move it....every single object in my living room
including Norman is a temporary, inanimate object which is always in the state of
breaking down, entropy is hard at work in my living room.. living things like Norman
must be given energy to prevent entropy... but at some point, entropy will win and
regardless of the energy I put into Norman, he will die... living things have a changing
amount of entropy in them.. as a living thing, the amount of entropy changes..
I release energy all the time and to replenish that energy, I must eat.....
living things have a changing amount of entropy...whereas inanimate
objects such as the vacuum cleaner has a set amount of entropy,
a set amount of energy within it to maintain its form.. which is what
we use energy for, to maintain and continue our existence and form...
at some point in time, my kitchen table, if it isn't broken up into
a million pieces for something or other, will at some point, lose the
energy that is fixed within it.. it will lose its form because the set
amount of energy within it will be gone, unless I put energy into that
kitchen table, by fixing it up or replacing the broken legs or do something
that returns energy into that kitchen table....

so we, the kitchen table, the vacuum cleaner, the books on my bookcase
are all made up of energy as am I.. we are a collection of atoms and if
we don't engage in the process of having equal process of energy
going in and energy going out, we begin the process of entropy which
is the loss of energy going into our system and with that loss, we
begin to disperse, our cells being the process of losing cohesion....

we are on both a large scale and a small scale.. existing as atoms....

atoms that don't maintain the equation of atom, being the process of breaking
down, of living things, as atoms, we are always in
the process of breaking down, of decomposing... and by replenishing our
energy, we restore the matter/energy that is within our system....

recall that human beings are matter and if you burn us, in a fire for example,
you turn our mass, our material into energy... our body temperature is a sign
of our matter/energy usage....if we weren't matter/energy, we wouldn't
have a body temperature...….

so what does all of the above tell us?

that we are atoms... and we respond to the universe
as atoms and we suffer from entropy as does every
single atom in the universe suffers from entropy....

so how does individual atoms, interact with the universe?

the 4 fundamental forces of nature: gravitational force, weak
nuclear force, electromagnetic force and the strong nuclear force....

as we are part of the universe and as we are atoms, both large and small....

if one were to create the Grand unified theory of everything
as Einstein tried to do, then we would finally find our exact place
in the universe as we too are part of any grand unified theory of
everything....we exists within that universe and are a part of that
universe...any theory that explain how the four fundamental forces
of the universe works, also explains us...…..

so from being an isolated atom existing apart in the universe,
now I am part of any grand unified theory of the universe.....

just as individual atoms can be explained in any GUT, we humans
can be explained just as easily.....


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:32 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
someone might say, but Kropotkin we see patterns
and meaning and mathematics telling us that
the universe is not just isolated atoms..... but a whole
unified concept of the universe...…

however, you must remember that from the first, we
have had the 4 fundamental forces of the universe...
gravitational force, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear
force and the electromagnetic force....
and everything in the universe that exists, flows
from those 4 forces....from what seems to be a
wide and diverse universe actually flows from 4 and only
4 forces.... (as I stated earlier, I believe that there are more
then just 4 forces, but that is just me)

anyway, the patterns and logic that seems to come from the universe
actually comes from random application of the 4 forces on
everything in the universe....what we see as a mathematical understanding
of the universe is really just an application to those 4 forces to the universe....

we can chart the three dimensions of the universe and time is the
fourth why can't we also chart the 4 forces of nature?

we can connect the 4 forces of nature to the 4 dimensions.....

but science has suggested that there are more then four dimensions,
perhaps as many as 11...…. ummmmm, and I have suggested that
there might be more then the 4 forces of the universe...….

But Kropotkin... you are fucking nuts... this is Ecmundu territory....
wild eye schemes with no, NO basis in reality.....

perhaps, perhaps.... but a little speculation never hurt anyone....

sometimes we human get so little landlock into our own thinking
and thoughts, that we forget to attempt to think beyond our own little box....
even if it sound completely crazy... batshit crazy land....
sometimes, just sometimes... you gotta go there......


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:32 pm
by promethean75
but Kropotkin, we see patterns and meaning and mathematics telling us that the universe is not just isolated atoms, but a whole unified concept of the universe.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:06 pm
by derleydoo
promethean75 wrote:but Kropotkin, we see patterns and meaning and mathematics telling us that the universe is not just isolated atoms, but a whole unified concept of the universe.

:) Nelson, I seem to recall a time when I asked you to admonish me if I ever showed signs of not being childish! Mr P very often manages to make me smile. One or two posters are too serious by far! It's good to giggle. We should take laughter far more seriously.

Don't tell me off!


Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:39 am
by Peter Kropotkin
derleydoo wrote:
promethean75 wrote:but Kropotkin, we see patterns and meaning and mathematics telling us that the universe is not just isolated atoms, but a whole unified concept of the universe.

:) Nelson, I seem to recall a time when I asked you to admonish me if I ever showed signs of not being childish! Mr P very often manages to make me smile. One or two posters are too serious by far! It's good to giggle. We should take laughter far more seriously.

Don't tell me off!


K: why thank you Mr. Derleydoo for your defense...I couldn't agree more
about laughter.... and the ism's and ideologies we so slavish follow could use
some humor and laughter about them....on of the reasons I so mistrust
Capitalism is its very, very, very lack of humor and laughter about itself....

laugh and the whole laughs with you
cry and you're probably a capitalist....