a new understanding of today, time and space.

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:13 pm

and how many people do you know actually reached the highest possibility of
human existence, of meeting their self-fulfillment level?


I believe i may have attained something like that.

Semi immune to suffering, no hate or aversion, love for all beings and even love for inanimate objects.

My crap still partially exists.
I hope it fades with time.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
Image
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10377
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:22 pm

Dan~ wrote:
and how many people do you know actually reached the highest possibility of
human existence, of meeting their self-fulfillment level?


I believe i may have attained something like that.

Semi immune to suffering, no hate or aversion, love for all beings and even love for inanimate objects.

My crap still partially exists.
I hope it fades with time.



K: I am pleased you are attempting the difficult task of overcoming,
of dropping all the nonsense and becoming who you are

carry on.........

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:32 pm

Nietzsche wrote, in the "Birth of Tragedy"......

that ART is "to be the highest task and the truly metaphysical activity
of this life"....

We can use ART to transcend our individual and collective lives....

let us see exactly how we can use ART to transcend our lives......

we have Artist long dead that we still engage with....

The "Mona Lisa" for example... When we went to Europe a few years ago,
on the very first day after we arrived, we went to the Louvre Museum and
saw the "Mona Lisa".....along with a whole, a whole lot of ART.. the Louvre is
one huge museum....you could spend days wondering around it and find new
stuff every single day.....

Anyway, we see ART like the "Mona Lisa" which has become the poster child
for ART itself... You think of ART and you think of the "Mona Lisa"...

This ART has transcended itself.... It is more then just a painting....
the surprise one has when seeing the "Mona Lisa" in real life is just
how small the painting actually is.....

The Artist himself, Da Vanci, died in 1519, slightly over 500 years ago.....

This ART which is made of wood, canvas, oil, is more then just the product
of being a painting........It stands for something, it means something more
then just being paint on a canvas..... and that meaning beyond or outside
of just being a painting is the transcending nature of the "Mona Lisa" but
of ART itself.....

we can transcend ourselves by being something more then just flesh and blood...

for example, George Washington transcends just being a human being by
the example we have of his life......Washington has become something more
then just his bones........his life give us an example by which we can aspire to.....

Gandhi for example is also another dead person....he died in 1948, 11 years before
I was born...think about what we call him..... "Mahatma"... and what does
"Mahatma" actually stand for? It is Sanskrit : great souled, venerable......

"great souled".... that certainly sounds like someone who transcended what
it means to be human...I would be pleased as punch if someone called me,
"Mahatma"... a great soul person... a venerable person.....

the fact is, I haven't risen above being a sack of bones, flesh, blood,
water... I have done nothing to merit such a moniker....I haven't transcended
being a animal or animal/human or even to rise above such matters and become
fully human.... little else being called "Mahatma"..."great soul".....

I am just a human being... I haven't even cleared the barrier of rising from
animal/ human to becoming fully human...

but the beauty of ART is that by the act of creation, for that is what we are talking
about, the act of creation helps us transcend who we are .......

Lincoln transcended by president by being a great president..
and how did he do that? by being a great person....the path to being
transcendent is by overcoming our instincts, our animal nature and
rising, yes, rising to become a great person..... the task of achieving
greatness lies not in achieving great task, but in becoming a great person...
and then the task we choose for ourselves becomes great.....

if I want to become a great writer, I must first become a great person......

and greatness rises from not taking the easy road, finding the easiest road
to travel by, but by taking the hard, difficult road of becoming human....

the path to achieving who we are, by overcoming, is by rising to
achieve transcendence.... becoming more then just a flesh and blood
human being......

he is an Artist...... that is something special because that person has
risen to become something more the just a human being... he has transcended
to become an Artist......think about our roles/functions of being human....

of being a producer... I work as a checker in a grocery store... I cannot rise
or I become transcended because I am limited and checked by my role as
a worker..... I can only become a slightly better worker, but that is as far
as my possibilities come to....... I can never achieve becoming a great worker
or transcend the work...... it is all I can become... just a worker.. nothing more......

or another role is consumer, I can consume and I am expected to consume,
to be a good American, I must buy goods like Cars, TV sets, couches, exercise
bikes.... the only aspect of becoming a "good" American is to simple be able to
buy more crap....there is no transcendence there, in buying crap for the betterment
of big business...... I do not rise to become something else in either
consumerism or in being a producer of goods....

Socrates was a man, just like I am currently a Man... and yet,
he transcended being just a man by his questions.... what if Socrates had
just played his role of being a husband, or a stone mason and being a consumer
of goods.... would we have considered Socrates the greatest philosopher of all
time? No, by just being what was expected of him, he would have been a good
Athenian but he wouldn't have risen to be a great philosopher or a great human being......

his greatness lies in his pursuit of the truth... not in his production or consumer of
goods.....the things that we honor most about Americans, isn't what will create
the greatness of soul that we so honor... for example, nether Lincoln or
Washington are known to be producers or consumers of goods...they didn't transcend
because of their role as being a consumer or a producer.... they transcended because
of something entirely different then what we would consider being "good Americans"

the greatness of "Da Vinci" of "Gandhi" of a George Washington or Abe Lincoln..
doesn't come from any aspect of making money or the production of goods that
can be sold...

Do we call Gandhi, "Mahatma" because of his money traits?

is he "Great soul" because of the vast wealth he accumulated over
the years? no, not at all.....the accumulation of goods and wealth
had no influence over him at all.... "Mahatma" great soul, has nothing
to do with money or wealth or fame or titles..... the very things we
in America chase and pursue...and who among us can be considered to
be called "Mahatma"?

but in the pursuit of Art and it implications, we can begin to
talk about what it takes to become "great soul" .... because in ART,
we can transcend who we are and what we might become.....

why was Gandhi a "great soul" person?

because he pursued ART...... now think of that sports fans.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 pm

How does a Gandhi become a "Gandhi"... "Mahatma" by science,
or by instinct or by ART or by the culture or within the framework of
modern America, consumerism and production of goods?

Think about his life and you tell me.....

What is the path of one to reach being "great soul?".....

How would you achieve being "Great soul?"

and I would tell you, the path to be a "Mahatma" is through ART...


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:30 pm

Let us return to an old topic...... "bad faith"........

does one who acts in "bad faith", is one who is called a "Mahatma"?

Does Gandhi act in "Bad faith?"... I don't see how.... he is driven by a moral code,
which he called, "Satyagraha".......

it was this understanding of the truth that drove Gandhi...... he lived by
and existed within "Satyagraha"....not by money or material goods, or fame
or titles, but by a moral code.......

he transcended being human by his engagement with "Satyagraha"...

and how did Washington transcend his human self?

by his engagement with an idea...... of his engagement with
America becoming a new nation... that was Washington path to
becoming transcendent.....

and what was Lincoln path, or his way of becoming transcendent?

his path was his engagement with keeping America together in a great
civil war.....that his how he became transcendent..... his path to greatness.....

and how does "Da Vinci" become transcendent?

by his engagement with ART... his creating......

that there are many different paths to overcoming, becoming
transcendent, should be clear to everyone by now.....

what is your path to transcendence?

what are you overcoming?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:24 pm

ok, we have what I have pointed quite often, a society focused upon
its nihilism....it devotion to the worthless values of money, fame, power,
titles.... this focus on these baubles, trinkets of money and fame and power
and titles..... means we aren't focused on what we need to be focused on.....

when we focus upon the baubles of existence, we aren't engaged
in what we need to be engaged with.....

for example, a few questions of existence..

how are we to be saved?

what are we to do?

what should we hope for?

what is the meaning, point of existence?

how do we seek transcendence?

the pursuit of baubles prevent us from an engagement with
these very important questions of existence.....

and what is one possible cure for these bauble questions of
existence?

why ART.... is one possible answer to the questions of existence that
cannot be answered by our modern consumerism or means of production......

the act of creation helps us to find the answers to the questions of
existence....

what is the point of existence? Goethe for example, explored this in
his "Faust"... he asked and answer the questions that the questions of
existence force us to consider...

what am I to do?

what should I hope for?

what is the point of existence?

what values should I hold?

these questions cannot be answered right now because we are
engaged with and focuses upon the false and dangerous answers
of capitalism and nationalism and any type of ism.....

but if we focus upon the act of creation and seek transcendence found
in becoming who we are, we can in fact, find an answer to the profound
questions of existences....what am I to do? for example......
can be answered in the act of creation and in the act of
seeking transcendental behavior or actions like a Gandhi or a George
Washington or a Da Vinci........

so the question is asked, what should I do to be great?

be like Gandhi...or be like MLK or be like Washington or
be like a Da Vinci..........

to seek greatness is just another path to the questions of existence

what am I to do?

what should I believe?

what should I hope for?

what does it mean to be human?

to become transcendent... and become something more the just a sack of
bones, blood, muscles, water..... to become something greater.. to rise to
the heights of being a human version of the "Mona Lisa"... to become something
more then just a painting.. to transcend being human....to seek meaning in
the act of creation.....

seeking meaning? seek in the act of creation and transcending....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:09 pm

we face this question of interpretation all the time
and ART is interpretation....

we take a fact like, "The earth is 93 million miles from the sun",
as a fact, but what interpretation does with that fact, makes it ART.....

we interpret things all the time... we use a variety of means of
achieving that interpretation... we can use experience, science,
instinct, facts, knowledge, wisdom as means of making interpretations.....

the tools we use to make interpretations are the tools listed above,
experience, science, instinct, facts, knowledge, wisdom and other tools....

we can also interpret in terms of ism's and ideologies... for example,
for decades, people would use Marxism as a tool of interpretation...
as others now use capitalism and democracy as a tool of interpretation....

a man is homeless.... that is a fact, and we can interpret that fact in
a wide variety of ways, via capitalism, he didn't work hard enough,
in terms of Marxism, the capital system failed that man,
a christian interpretation, he deserved his homelessness because
he didn't believe in god, we can interpret any fact as we see fit.....

and the choice of interpretation is ART....we can dress it up, dress it down,
make it romantic or make it scientific.... couch in it in terms of ism's and
ideologies....we have a wide variety of choices in making interpretations...

we have choices, and in those choices, we act creatively and that creativity is ART...

but because of ever changing enviroments, we are somewhat limited in our choices...
for example, as no one practice Egyptian religious rites, so we cannot choose to
see a man homelessness in terms of Egyptian religious rites... or in terms of
the Vikings god, Thor... it doesn't make sense to choose an ancient religious
rite or god to interpret facts.... so we are somewhat limited by
current practices as to how we interpret facts......

as Marxism is "dead" few if any people interpret facts in light of Marxist thought...
that man is homeless because Marx said he would be homeless in a capitalistic
society....

so, we must incorporate modern practices to interpret certain matters....

so, pick your fact to interpret and then you have been creative and that is ART....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:21 pm

what is the "TRUTH?"....

the "TRUTH" is found within the various interpretations of life we have....

and those interpretations are (found) (created) in our current
situations.. which is to say, we interpret based upon our socio-economic position,
our childhood biases and indoctrinations, our "mental contraptions"
which what beliefs I hold......

so, I try to find the "TRUTH" of what it means to be an American....
as I am a white male who is 61 born in Minneapolis of an upper class family,
the circumstances of my birth, the who, what, when, where, how and why,
helps me to determine or helps me interpret what is the "TRUTH".....
As I am middle class and living a very comfortable life with no issues
that plague my fellow American's, I have a set of values and within those
values lie my interpretation of what it means to be an American

the circumstances of my current and past existence are part of my "Mental
contraption" that helps me to make judgements or interprets the information
I have about life and what it means to be an American.....

the "TRUTH" is simply my interpretation of "facts" through the lens of
the circumstances of my past and current existence...if I am of a philosophical
bent, I will interpret the 'TRUTH" though what I have interpreted as being
"Philosophical" and I will interpret the "TRUTH" though the lens of
being white, middle age, middle class, or being married or having been
born in the particular circumstances I was born in...and I then interpret
the "TRUTH" via those particular circumstances, those accidental circumstances
of my birth...the childhood indoctrinations of my childhood....

so, that was long way of saying, the 'TRUTH" is found in my interpretation
of facts and that those interpretations are created by the circumstances,
the accidental circumstance of the who, what, when, where, why and how
of my birth and childhood and also in my current socio-economic
situation I find myself in these days...

my past and present combine to create within me "mental contraptions"
that I then use to interpret the "TRUTH"....

The circumstances of my existence, my age, my health, my lifestyle,
my job, my being married or not, help me to take "facts" and I
find the "TRUTH" within the circumstances of my existence...
I cannot find the "TRUTH" outside of my particular circumstances,
because the 'TRUTH" is found in my interpretation of my
particular circumstances....

there is no such thing as an "Objective" or "Standard".... "TRUTH....

there are just interpretations of the 'TRUTH" that are driven by
my particular existence of current and past accidental
circumstances....

now we can, as I have earlier suggested, take those interpretations
and turn them into ART.....for that is really what ART is, just
an interpretation of existence...

just as I have created an interpretation of existence based upon
my own particular circumstances of birth and current situation....

in my interpretation of existence, I have created ART...
ART is interpretation of existence....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:09 pm

"to choose among a multitudes of possibilities choices" is an ARTISTIC choice...

and that is how can see ourselves as being ARTISTIC.... by the choices
we make....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:28 pm

Peter Kropotkin: "to choose among a multitudes of possibilities choices" is an ARTISTIC choice...

and that is how can see ourselves as being ARTISTIC.... by the choices
we make....

K: and our choices arise from the "cultural/individual contraptions" that
make up our life... and does this mean we make a choose passively
or do we actively make our choices?

or example, the study of ART is said to be a passive study... we sit there and
contemplate passively the ART in question? or do we actively engage with
ART or with our own understanding of the universe based upon our own
mental makeup that is the combination of our past indoctrinations
and our current situation in life.... I believe we engage with life
actively, not passively and with the mental contraptions of both past
and present that exists within our mind/body/soul.....

I see an work of ART... say a picture... I can't see the backstory of
the work in question.. so I fill in the blanks with my own interpretation
of the picture in question with ingredients from my own past and present...
given to me by my own mental contraption or understanding of the world...

I can make a picture seem happy or sad or angry or pleasant regardless of
what the ARTIST intends because of my own personal history and my understanding
of that history....

my reaction to my own personal history changes my own reaction
to the events, people, places and theories of every day.....

I see the world being a dark place and my own reaction to that, changes
the way I see and interact and interpret the world.. regardless of real
picture that exists, I react with my own reaction to what I perceive
as being the world, not as the world is.... I react to my own mental
contraption of the world and not to the world itself...

if I see the world as a dark place, then I react to the world as if it
is a dark place, not as it may or may not be...my own mental
contraptions changes how I view the world....this interpretation
of the world is how we react to the world... this is the ARTISTIC
practice of interpretation....we react to our own vision of the world,
not as the world is and that reaction is ARTISTIC....

we don't react to the world, we react to our vision of the world.....

which is ARTISTIC...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:35 pm

so I see an angry world, that comes from my own internal contraption
or understanding of the world, if I see an happy world, that comes from
my own internal contraption or understanding of the world, if
I see an emotional world, that comes from my own mental contraption
of the world and If I see an intellectual world... you know.....

so, if you are unhappy with the world, perhaps you are unhappy
because your internal contraption or understanding of the world
is skewed or based on a wrong understanding of the world.....

if you want a happy world, then see the world as happy....
pretty much as simple as that.....

our view of the world decides our understanding of the world...

change your understanding/view of the world and how you see
the world changes...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:40 pm

so if we accept the above as an understanding of the world,
then we now see how our interpretations of world, our understanding
of the world is not impartial or objective, but our understanding of
the world is Aesthetic... we make Artistic choices based upon
our viewpoint or understanding of the world...this ARTISTIC choice
is simply our interpretation of the world... to make choices, is to
create ART...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:44 pm

but Kropotkin, you could be wrong?

yep, and that is why the world is subjective and not objective.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:55 pm

so what is "GOD"???????

God is an interpretation of the world manifested by our internal contraptions
that determine how we view the world.... if we, internally, don't see the need
for "GOD" then we don't have need or use for a "GOD".. Our mental contraptions
based upon our experiences, viewpoints, indoctrinations, current standing
and placement in the world, decide if we hold to the "ISM" of "GOD".....

Our own viewpoint or understanding of the world determine if we
"believe" in "GOD" and not if "GOD" truly exists.. but our own
interpretation decides if we believe or hold to a "GOD".. not the facts
or lack of facts decide if we believe or hold to a "GOD".....

Or said another way, our interpretation of the world helps us understand
if there is a "GOD"...so, "GOD" isn't a fact or guarantee.. "GOD" is simply
an interpretation of the world we hold to....nothing more......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:05 pm

so, what is history, economics, science, biology, social sciences?

they are really myths we, in common, agree to....

history is a myth that we collectively hold to be true based upon
our own personal understanding of our internal mental contraptions or
understanding of the world....what we see as "facts" is simply our own
internal mental contraption/understanding of the world....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:36 pm

so the path I have laid out is a subjective one...

but Kropotkin, we must have objective, certainty!

and that is what philosophy and science has done, focused
on the objective and what can be certain? recall the centuries long
exploration of knowledge, epistemology from Philosophy? That exploration
was a search for the limits of certainty in the lens of knowledge...we sought
certainty in terms of knowledge.....

logic is the search for certainty... "Method" is the search for certainty....

but as I have pointed out, we come from a subjective viewpoint....
we see the world in terms of our subjective internal thinking which
is some sort of mishmash of childhood indoctrinations, biases, superstitions,
habits, or as one here has called it, the mental contraptions of existence...
and those contraptions are not fixed or logically or set in concrete....

my own mental contraptions are based on my study of philosophy,
my childhood, my current socio-economic situation, my accidental
traits of birth.. being born in America and being white and being male,
being born in an upper class family...... all traits I had nothing to do with....

David Hume once wrote about the inner being we call "ourselves"
he felt that there was no there in there...... we are a shifting, mixed,
ever changing of beliefs..... Hume felt that there was nothing inside of us
to suggest that there was some center inside of us, that corresponds
to us.....there is no center inside of us that we can point to and say, yes,
that is me...if I try to pin down who Kropotkin is, as Hume tried to do,

I don't find some sort of center that says, here is Kropotkin....
think of it like those candies that have a center in the midst
some other candy.. like a hard shell in the midst of soft chocolate..
we think we human beings have a hard shell that is us, in the midst of
our soft and gooey human shell we call the body....

but try to find it... take your time.... as Hume pointed, we can only
see that a shifting collection of temporary personalities, but no hard mix
that we can call, ourselves.....

so why should we think about the universe as being objective
and fixed, certain? when inside of us, our very being isn't
objective or fixed or certain? Perhaps that is why we seek that
which we cannot find inside of us, the objective, the fixed soul,
the certainty inside of us........so we seek that which we think,
think might us what is wrong inside of us... we seek the objective
and certainty outside of us to fix what is subjective and not certain
inside of us....

perhaps we are uncertain, alienated, disconnected from ourselves
and thus from our society, the state, the culture because we
seek the wrong thing... we seek something that doesn't exists,

we seek the certain, the objective, the fixed in the universe
but we don't find it because it doesn't exists in the universe either....

so let us seek that which is inside of us, the subjective, the uncertain,
the unfixed and learn to dance instead of becoming concrete and solid.....

the name of a book I like is, "all that is solid melts into air"

and that is a good description of our modern existence.....
what was once solid, has melted into air....

the life of living in rural, agriculture is full of solid living....

you can see the land and you can physically see, hear, touch, smell,
taste everything that you grow on the land... being in a rural existence
is being connected to the ground and that ground is the basis of being
objective, fixed, certain.... but our world today isn't fixed to the ground
the way it was for 10,000 years for our ancestors.... but think about the time
before we become fixed and set on the ground.....think about the million
years or so, of the life we human beings lived.... hunter-gatherer.....

there was no fixed, set existence for human beings... we simply followed
the animals around to make sure we had steady food supply......
there was nothing fixed or set or certain in our lives for over
a million years.......

we became human beings while living uncertain, unfixed, unsettled
lives....it has only been in the last 10,000 years that we have lived,
fixed, settled, certain lives....

what are you saying Kropotkin, that we should return to the hunter-gatherer
existence of over a million years just to return to some weird notion
of the past and who we lived?

no, not at all.....I am just exploring possibilities and what if's and what might
have been, to understand what we were and what we are and what we might
become.......

what is the very first rule in Philosophy? to know thyself.

all philosophy begins in that very first rule.......

and that is what I am trying to do... to know ourselves.. by exploring the past
and present.....

I am saying it is possible that we are seeking the wrong thing...

we are currently seeking the objective, the set, the fixed in existence....

and that is fine, but that may not be who we are and what we need to
be searching for.... we must accept as equally possible, the need within
us to be subjective and uncertain and not fixed......

we need to learn to dance to the music of uncertainty and subjective
and not fixed......

instead of planting roots and becoming tree's, we might need to learn
to live like birds or clouds... just float with the wind, the breeze....
to dance because it is not certain and not fixed and not set....

and perhaps, perhaps that is why the Romantic era happened just
after the Enlightenment era.... the Enlightenment was an era that
suggested the point was to settle down and plant roots into the
ground of objective, fixed beliefs of science and logic and rationality......

and so came along the Romantics who said the exact opposite......

don't settle down with logic and science and rationality.....

learn to dance with the subjective, the uncertain, the not fixed......

and so we have had this battle between the two sides which has
defined the modern age........and who shall win?

we shall win once we have learned to combine both into
unset, unsettle, uncertain mixture......

for we need both to survive....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:59 pm

And what the hell does the "Aesthetic" has to do with what you just
wrote?

to seek the "Aesthetic" is to seek the beauty of the moment, action, ourselves......

it is to seek the uncertain, the unsubstantial, the sublime......

it isn't solid or certain or objective that is the "Aesthetic".....

so how about this? we can seek the "Aesthetic", the uncertain,
the formless, the subjective in both us and in the moment, people,
places and events in the world.....

and, and we can seek the solid, the certain, the objective in other
aspects of our lives.....we can honor both sides of existence by
how we seek that which is in our lives....we see the uncertain
and the formless and we see the certainty and solid in our lives.....

at different times, we can seek one or the other.....
depending in our life where we are, that will decide which choice
we seek..... and recall that choice, to make a choice is an
Aesthetic experience... it is ART.......

if we are to live in formless and uncertain times, we tend to seek that
which is solid and certain... but perhaps we should do the opposite in
uncertain times.... perhaps we should seek that which is formless
and not solid and that which is uncertain......

be in line with the time by which we seek that which is the times.....
so in uncertain and unset times, we seek the same
and in certain and set times, we seek the same....

follow the times by that which we seek.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:54 pm

now to tie in some aspects I have commented upon lately......

the banality of existence is one means that we miss or it hides
what is there...we are so engaged in the banality of existence that
we forget the "higher" levels of existence....

if I am so engaged in the day to day matters of existence, I will forget
the seeking of the reasons for existence or I will miss out on what is
really important.... how to overcome nihilism for example......

Nihilism is just a word meaning, the banality of existence........

the stuff I like to call, the kitchen table stuff, is also a way to
miss or not see what is really important in ones life....

we become so involved in the kitchen table stuff, we forget to ask
the questions of existence.. "what am I to do?" "what should I believe in?"
"what should I hope for?" "what values should I/we hold?"
or forget to seek the beauty of existence.. we forget
to seek the choices that, and choices is what make ART,
we forget to seek our choices in life... we no longer lead/seek
an Aesthetic life, as we should.......

we could say that a nihilistic life is an "unauthentic" life.......

and it is outside of the "kitchen table stuff" that lies the "authentic"
life.... the kitchen table stuff, while very important, also mask or hides
that which makes us "Authentic"......

the "kitchen table stuff, is the part of the banality of existence.....

and to escape the "banality of existence", we must rise above it and
soar to a birds eye view of existence... to see the forest is to rise
above the banality of existence.....to become "Authentic" means to
rise above the banality of existence and find out who we really are
and what are our possibilities.....................

both sides of the equation is important, the kitchen table stuff
and the attempt to escape the banality of existence and to overcome
the nihilism of existence that the "kitchen table stuff" is a part of.....

it is a balancing act... to engage in the kitchen table stuff and, and
to engage in the questions of existence.... but hay, if you can walk
and chew gum at the same time, you can engage in the kitchen table stuff
and engage in the questions of existence.....for they both have
their time and place......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:01 pm

within the "banality of existence" hides some of the basic problems of
existence....for we are all consumed with these "banalities"
of work, of making ends meet, of fighting the daily battles of
existence which hides such questions of our alienation,
of Aesthetics, the questions of existence... "what am I to do" is
force underground given the priority of the "banalities" of life...

does my life have meaning or purpose? who knows, given we are force
to concentrate on the "banalities of existence".....

trying to put food on the table or trying to pay off immense
medical bills are immediate concerns that drive the other concerns
off the table..... for example, does the question of what makes us
human get priority over putting food on the table? Nope, putting
food on the table will win 100% of the time given the two choices....

If I am alienated from myself and/or my society, who cares if I am
about to be evicted from my apartment........ these basic kitchen table
stuff dominates and overshadows the questions of existence...

the "banality of existence" dominates and overshadows questions of
existence......

and yet, I believe these questions of existence are as important, if not more
important then the questions of the kitchen table stuff.......

"who am I" is just as important as "how can I pay that medical bill?"

the focus is just on different aspects of our lives......

and this is in part, why I am against modern capitalism.....

it negates some of the basic questions of existence under
the guise of "living our lives" we cannot, cannot properly engage
with the questions of existence, "What can I hope for?" if I am
always thinking about how am I to avoid eviction or how am
I going to pay for little Kim's collage fund?

part of being "authentic" is in fact our engagement with the questions
of existence....."what can we know?" "what values should we hold?"

those questions are a part of an authentic life and we cannot be
authentic if we are denied or if we cannot face those questions
because of "Kitchen table stuff" which can dominate our lives,
our time, our thinking.....

part of people thinking is "How do we get the good life?"
and the problem with that is simply this, how do we
know what is the good life?....

I hold that the point of, the purpose of life, of existence isn't
the pursuit of the "good life", the "American dream" as it were.....
to seek out wealth, power, fame, material goods, the "good life" isn't....

it is seeking out what it means to be human that is the point of,
the purpose of existence..... remember the first rule of
philosophy as given by Socrates.... "to know thyself"
and is the point of existence...not to seek the "American dream"
but to "know thyself".....

seeking knowledge on the way to wisdom... for the final goal,
is to seek wisdom.... in which we discover what it means to
be human and what are our possibilities of existence.....

so to "uncover" what it means to be human, we must lose
our engagement with our "kitchen table stuff" and
begin to engage with the real questions of existence.....

to be really "Authentic" means to no longer seek the
"American dream".... to be "Authentic" means to seek
out what being human means and what is our possibilities are,
just as an example.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:33 pm

at this point I am reading "Prophets of extremity" by
Allen Megill......

one of the points made in the chapter on Heidegger, is that
philosophy no longer connects to what is "important"
because it is, Philosophy, focused on matters that
has no relevance to people outside of philosophical
thought... in other words, only professors care about
the type of shit that modern philosophy deals with....

as philosophy engages in the world in terms of
"forgetting" what is really important... as does the world..
in its focus upon the questions of "banality of existence"
instead of questions of existence in general....

so said another way...what is the "kitchen table stuff" of philosophy?

what should we be engaging with if we are engaged with the "Kitchen
table stuff" of philosophy?

I hold that philosophy lost its value to the "people" because it
no longer focuses on matter that should be "Kitchen table philosophical
stuff"

which is "what am I to do?", "what is the point of existence?"
"what values should I hold?"

these are the things that philosophy should engage with,
the "kitchen table stuff"...

Does, for example, analytic philosophy deal with such "kitchen table stuff"
as in "what is the point of existence?" or "what is the meaning of life?"
"what am I to do?"

no, and that is the point...... philosophy has lost its ability to
engage with what is important to people in their day to day life......

we need to return philosophy to its "root" purpose which is to
be a guide to the way people live out their lives....philosophy
as a tool which allows people to make decisions about what is
the meaning of their lives...and that we should engage with the
"kitchen table stuff" of philosophy and that will return philosophy
to the status of "the queen of the sciences" because it has all
other disciplines as it subject matter.....

instead of seeking the "good life" we return to thinking about
what it means to be human and what are our possibilities?

refocus philosophy to become something of a force in people's life,
instead of some obscure university course that has no meaning outside
of the classroom.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:53 pm

as is well known, that Heidegger was "influenced" by the Nazi's...
he became "rector" which is head of a university, of Freiburg University in
1933.. just as Germany was "eliminating" Jewish influences in public life...
the question of Heidegger involvement in Nazi's life has been front
and center of every discussion of Heidegger for decades....

so this naturally leaves us with this question of the value of Heidegger
philosophy given his "role" in Nazi Germany.......

given how much of Heidegger works deal with the crisis of the 20th century,
we cannot just walk away from this because it is inconvenient for us.....

this question of how Heidegger involved himself in Nazism leads us
to this, should Heidegger have, at the very least, privately questioned
the premises of Nazism and at the most, he should have denounced
the very heart of Nazism.....

How should we approach this question given our current political climate?

for example, we have people now, just now coming out against Herr Trump,
when they were silent, cricket silent about IQ45 for years.... should people like
Mark Cuban or Zuckerberg or Bill Gates have publicly denounced IQ45 years ago?

I say yes, and I believe that cowardice prevented them from speaking out
against the village idiot.....

compare the time period of Nazi Germany with its evil and the last
4 years with its evil... putting children into concentration camps is evil,
denying human rights because people aren't white, or Americans or love
the wrong person......we have seen evil in the last 4 years and people,
"many "good people" have gone out of their way to defend it....

so, what about them? if we are to correctly understand Heidegger with
his failure to criticize the Nazi's, how should we approach our modern
era with those who should have criticize IQ45 and his acts of evil?

evil is evil is evil regardless if we are the "good people" who approve of it
or if we are demonized for opposing it..... "Libtards" for example....

I for one, am willing to take a hit for speaking out against acts of evil, be
it putting children into concentration camps or for legally demonizing
those who hold beliefs that are different from me.. or love differently
from me or look differently then me....

this a question of justice... for justice is simply the act of
equality done for all, not just for a few...... if we judge others
because of accidental traits such as the color of their skins or
their nationality or their religion, then we are not engaging in justice,
we are not engaging in equality..... we are actively engaging in
injustice and inequality..... for which there is no defense.....

for if we cannot, cannot defend Heidegger for his implied defense
of Nazism, we cannot defend the silent ones who said nothing
over the last 4 years to protect their image or the hold onto their wealth or
power...... to attack those like Gate or Zuckerberg for being silent is
no different then to attack Heidegger for his silence during the Nazi years......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:00 pm

it is clear.. there can be no debate.... America is in crisis.....

a simple look at this election shows us how much of a crisis
we are in....

the left and the right are threating to plunge this country into civil war......

and what is the cause?

the problem isn't what you think it is..... the left and right begin at
the exact same place and that is why the country is in crisis.....

that exact same place the left and right begin with is in its
wholesale and complete belief in materialism....

the left believe in the materialism of getting people to the base, the bottom
of the Maslow's pyramid... that basic belief that everyone should be feed, have
water, shelter, clothing, an education and health care is holding to a
materialism view of the universe....that we must give people material goods
for them to survive.... the left begins in materialism.....

and of course the right beliefs in a slightly different form of materialism....

but materialism nevertheless.....to achieve wealth at all costs, that is
the materialism of the right...

the one and only function of existence is to get and hold onto wealth
and materials goods...

the two sides, although in the midst of a death struggle, still hold onto
the same basic fabric of thought... that the answer lies in the procurement
of material goods.......

this fallacy of both the left and the right extend into the ism's
and ideologies of both the left and the right..... the fatal flaw of
communism is its devotion, complete and utter devotion to
materialism.... communism is the we of capitalism which is I....

communism says we in regards to materialism and capitalism says
I in regards to materialism.... that is the only real difference between
the two...

both ism's begin and end in materialism........

but I say unto you.....

"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, then are dreamt of in
your philosophy"

the philosophy in question here is materialism...... and there is more to existence
then just a devotion to acquiring wealth and material goods....

we seek wealth and material goods to live out our lives, to be able
to retire, to pass onto our children........ and what if, what if...

existence is something more then just the acquisition of wealth and material goods....

and the fundamental aspect of the modern crisis lies here because we don't know
what else there is in existence outside of the acquisition of wealth and material goods.....

and one avenue of pursuit we human beings have attempted has been to
reach toward the spiritual avenue of human belief......

but in case you haven't heard, apparently "God is dead"....

and we are his killers..... just as Nietzsche said, we have yet to hear
the news that we have blood on our hands.. it is only a matter of time though.....

so we cannot continue our failed path toward the acquisition of wealth
and material goods nor can we escape into that tired old path of
theology......

and hence, the crisis of modern times....

what other path can we follow that will bring us closer to salvation?

for that is what we are seeking, searching for, salvation......

and what is the point of this salvation? to be save in regards to
having a purpose, a goal, a point in our existence.....
we are seeking some meaning in our lives and salvation is finding
that meaning or goal in?

and that is the question isn't it?

and we reach one such possibility for salvation.....

the Aesthetic possibility of existence.....reaching and seeking purpose
and meaning in the Aesthetic... ART.....

and what is ART? Is it a means of showing us our possibilities in existence.....

we read Science Fiction for example... that is about possibilities.... I read
the "Foundation series" By Asimov... that is really just showing us what is
possible for us if we can get there.....Science Fiction is really just a road map
for us to reach, to become....it lays out possibilities for us to seek.....

we can also seek out possibilities in poems and novels and painting
and buildings and sculptures.......

that which is possible is possible in ART.....

is there "TRUTH" in ART? only as so much as it brings out
and identifies the possibilities inherent in human beings.....

I can become whatever I want... or so goes the ad, but that act of
creativity is really what we call ART.....

in the song, send in the clowns... there is one line that goes like this....

"I make my entrance again with my usual flair"

the entrance with my usual flair..... that is ART, that is the Aesthetic...

we, if done right can be Aesthetic, we can become ART ... in our actions, in
our lives, in who we are... if we just understood that life and ART is really
the same thing....

the search for meaning and purpose can be found in discovering the
ART that lies in us and that can be displayed by us in our daily actions....

forget the path of materialism... embrace the path of becoming Aesthetic...
become ART.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:21 am

ART can be used to explore out possibilities but ART can be of even
more use........

when I look at today, our world, our time... what do I see?

I don't see the yes of a great GDP and I don't see the yes of
a growing stock market and I don't see the yes of the American dream......

ART can be used to explore the possibilities that lie between the yes that
believes itself to be of value.... Whereas I don't see the greatness of those
yeses....and the no's...... I see the homeless man lying on the street...
I see the single mother trying to raise her son, I see millions struggling to
make ends meet...where the average person is two paychecks from being homeless....

but I see something missing from our world........

what is missing is hope and what is missing is people being able to
reach for the stars and if they fail, they are cheered up and send back out
to try again.... and we can only reach that if we
succeed in reaching, for everyone, the basic bottom line of
human existence....to feed everyone and to house everyone
and to send everyone to get free health care and free education.....

that is the bottom... the bottom line of human existence....and then
we must reach for more..... it isn't enough to just meet the bottom
level of achieving the basic necessities of human existence for
everyone......

much of what I have outlined as reaching for the star to reach our
becoming is out of reach for millions because they are trapped in
just reaching the necessities of existence, food, getting water, shelter...
if you spend all your energy on getting just the basic's, you don't have the
energy to reach beyond yourself... you don't have the energy to overcome
which is not a physical engagement, but an emotional, mental, psychological
engagement....

but who has time for that if you are in a daily, 24 hour struggle to get just
get the necessities...

so how do we reach the next level of engagement?

that is the question of the modern era....... how do we allow everyone
the space, time, leisure to reach their next level of overcoming
and becoming who they are.... to know thyself takes energy, time
and room enough that one, in our modern age, spends on getting
making ends meet........

it isn't enough to get just those with leisure and time to make the next step
into growth from animal to animal/human to finally becoming fully human.....

we must begin to include everyone into this leap from animal to becoming
fully human.....

so, that is what I see.... what do you see?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:49 pm

one of the crisis point over the last 200 years has been the
crisis created by Darwin.......

the point of Darwin was simple, we are biological creatures... and
we have yet come to an understanding of that basic, fundamental
point... we have yet come to grips with Darwin....

my evidence for this? why look around the world and the way it
functions.... at my work, I am treated as a machine, not as a biological
being.... I arrive at work and I put on my PPE gear, my gloves and my face shield....
I then clock in... around two hours, I get a break then if I am working more then
6 hours, at some point between 3 and 4.75 hours into work, I must take lunch,
after lunch, I get another break.. breaks are only 10 minutes....

at work, we have a "profile" and this "profile" is a list of what we are to do
and what time we are to do it at....so, the profile might list me doing
self- checkout or perhaps I might be in a checkstand...or on very rare occasions,
I might be listed as courtesy clerk.. or sometime in one day, I might be listed
to engage with all three possibilities...

so look at how regimented my work is....I am not given an option to pick and
choose...at every step I am told what to do, where to stand, what to focus on....

very machine like..... I must play a role in the smooth running of the store
and the way I play that role, as others play it to, is by following the
strict roles I am given... we are treated like machines.. not biological
beings...

but given what we know from Darwin, we are biological creatures, not
machines.... so what happens if we are, as millions of people are, treated
as being machines....not people, but machines......

at work, they keep track of all kinds of things... for example, I am
measure, timed, compared to other checkers... My drawer is
checked for overages or shortages.. and that information is kept tracked
of...how fast I check is kept track of as well as how many people I
engage with....on a busy day, I can ring up up to 250 people...
and every single one of those 250 transactions is timed, measured,
compared to other checkers....we are "encouraged" to have a checker
score of over 100%... that is a number that takes into account my speed,
my accuracy, my "downtime" not ringing and the length of time for every
single transaction...

and on a board in the break room, we can look up our numbers...

and all of it very machine like..... we have our quota's we have to meet.....

now at work, I am treated like a machine..... but I am not a machine....

I am a biological being who feels and loves and hopes and dreams.......

and that means nothing at work.... my only function is to
increase the store profits.. nothing else matters....

if we continue to treat our workers like machines, then at some point,
the biological nature of us must either be killed or we must engage in
some sort of rebellion against being treated like a machine...

I am human.... and work/society treats me as a machine.....

we cannot continue to engage in this dual nature... something must
back down... either the human nature, the being human part of us,
or the attempts to turn us into machines......

so which path should we follow?

the path into profits demands that we follow the machine
aspect of America and the path to becoming human, demands
we treat people as human beings, not machines....

so, what path will you follow or engage with?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:23 pm

so let us further understand this concept of
people being treated like machines and
Darwin's understanding that human being are
biological beings......

so, what happens to people who are treated as machines instead
of human beings?

I hold that is part of the crisis of the modern age....part of......

when profits have more value to companies then the human beings
who created those profits, what happens to the human beings?

I hold that human beings react as biological beings... we learn to
hate our jobs, we learn to rebel against what we see a system making us
machines instead of treating us as human beings...

we react by the usual suspects, drinking and drugs and sometimes,
sometime active engagement against the business world....

in our rebelling against the corporation.. people will simply allow
such things as letting others steal from the corporation......
sometimes we engage in minor acts of rebelling against being
treated like machines.... small acts like not charging for bags or
not charging full price on merchandise...

the point is that people don't feel any need to defend or have
any loyalty for the companies that they work for....

it is almost, almost a running battle between the company
and the employee's...... and why?

because companies treat their employee's as machines
and expendable parts... the employee is simply a means to
profits.. they have no value in themselves......

and it is clear that companies have no interest in treating its
employee's as human beings..... for hopes and dreams and love
cannot make a company any profits.. so it has no place within
a company.... the very thing that makes me human is the very
thing that a business will not accept or tolerate....

and as business are parts within capitalism, we can see that capitalism
has no interest in people as people, with hopes, dreams, desires and needs....
all of which is not important to a business/company.....

the search for profits means businesses simply deny human beings
the opportunity to be human....for being human doesn't increase
or make any profits... Darwin is denied in place of making human
beings, machines....

and the natural human response is to fight back against any attempts
to deny our human nature.. and so we fight back against businesses
and against the ism that powers businesses.... we attack capitalism......

now one might ask, Kropotkin... isn't this just a confession of yours?

perhaps, perhaps... but I am not alone in my hatred in being treated
like a machine instead of being treated like a human being.....

where I am considered to be expendable to the cause of profits....

where it is unimportant for me to hold human needs like love and hope
and dreams because they don't make profits

or said another way... how do we fight the nihilism of the modern world
as exemplified by the seeking of profits over human beings?

and that is the question? how do we fight the very nihilistic
nature of our modern society?

how am I to be saved from just being a means to profits?

how do I become human in a world that is not interested in me becoming
human?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users