Utilitarian values

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Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 7:46 pm

let us approach the meaning of existence via
utilitarian values...

let us take some examples, the WIC program,
which is a special supplemental nutrition program
for women, infants and children..

at my work, I deal with the WIC program all the time,
it is basically dealing with products like milk, bread,
cheese, formula, items that are essential items for infants
and children... now conservatives have been trying to slash
or eliminate this program for years, along with SOCIAL SECURITY
and Medicare and Medicaid....
and what has been the conservative justification for slashing
or eliminating such beneficial programs?

The true value of conservatism which is a utilitarian value..
the conservative will always ask, how much does this
program, WIC, costs?

and that becomes their basis for judging a program, by it
cost to the government/taxpayers... saving children's lives
is far less important than it monetary value...how much
does it cost? when the value of a program is reduced to "how
much does it cost?" then it has no value... regardless of the millions
of children that can eat because that program... the strict
utilitarian value of the WIC program is what matters, it isn't
important if it saves children's lives if it cost "too much"...

the lives of children are balanced against the monetary value
of the program... children's live are weighed by money,
not by their individual value... that is the essence of
utilitarian values... the conservative measure programs and lives by strict adherence
to monetary values... if it "cost" too much it is gone... thus money
becomes the deciding value over children's live, not the children's
lives... that isn't pro-life, that is pro-money.. money is given
priority over children's lives.. and that is the utilitarian value
that has priority of the conservative/GOP/MAGA party..
they measure lives in terms of how much will it cost,
as opposed to how many children's lives will be saved....


when lives are measured in terms of money, that is
utilitarian... which is defined in my handy dandy dictionary as:

1. designed to be useful or practical, rather than attractive,

One of the problems of this conservative utilitarian valuing of
life, is that it ignores, as the conservative does ignore,
the question of justice... we can see how this strict holding
of utilitarian values can lead us to ignore justice..
for justice is the process of equality... to be just means
to be equal... treat everyone as equal... of course
the conservative denies equality as a matter of course..
one can see this in their hatred/fear of trans/gay/ rights
and in their refusal to treat women equal, or to treat
people of color as equal... why do you think that the
GOP/MAGA party has spent the last couple of years, trying
to prevent voting rights to minorities or people of color?

the radical right-wing hates/fears equality of all kinds,
the entire "replacement theory" of theirs is predicated on
preventing justice/equality to people of color...
unequal treatment based on such accidental virtues such
as color, race, gender, nationality....
and their justification for such inequality lies in their flawed
theory of utilitarian values....

what are its values according to it use is conservative,
as opposed to the liberal idea that all human beings have value
regardless of how much it cost or its possible usage...

and let us explore that idea for a bit... for a conservative,
people only have value if, IF they are being "productive" in
society... if they are creating value in society, that is the only
way one has value to the conservative....thus a worker, has
minimal value in society, the poor have no value to the conservative
because they aren't being "productive", creating wealth
this strict utilitarian understanding of human lives... if they can
be "productive" they have value, if they cannot be "productive"
they have no value... hence the conservative hatred of
the poor, mothers, the old, children, the homeless,
the mentally ill... they, in the eyes of the conservative,
produce little or nothing, thus they have no value for
the conservative... they have no worth, why bother giving
them money, time, effort, when they have no value?
Does this sound "pro-life" to you?
something only as value if it is "productive".. as it
is clear that the right wing, conservative only holds
to utilitarian values, that something only as value if it
is "productive" that leads one to wonder about their pretend
"pro-live" allegiance to unborn babies? Why is that?

It is just another pretend ''culture war"
issue that only has value because it appeals to people's
sensibilities, to their values, the GOP has no such value
of being "pro-life".. it is just another example of the
conservative utilitarian approach... that pretend "pro-life" value
is simply a crass attempt to gain votes with no other value to it...
another utilitarian approach.. is it "productive".. does it achieve
the goal of the GOP/MAGA party? YES, so it has value...
and is kept, and when it no longer is "productive" gets
them votes, they will dump their "pro-life" pretense
faster than a hot potato.. and why? Because it has
no purpose anymore.. and the conservative only
acts and believes within a utilitarian understanding
of the universe...as long as it serves a purpose, it
remains, once it purpose is gone/done, so is that value...
and that is utilitarian to the core... thus we will see
the end of the Pro-life movement of the radical right wing soon,
why, because it will no longer attract votes, and that is it value,
and they will move on to something else...

all this is just a long way of saying that the radical right wing,
holds to situational values... the situation defines the values,
the situation holds that to gain power, the right wing needs
something to attract voters/customers and that "value"
right now, is "pro-life"... and when the situation changes,
so will their values... Pro-life will exists as long as it serves
its purpose, remember the right believes in utilitarian values,
it must be "productive" or it is gone...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 30, 2022 7:52 pm

-
--- just more communist fake narrative BS.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 8:44 pm

thus we can see this utilitarian value
in their approach to aesthetic values..
the conservatives, such as motor, UR, and Magnus
hates such things as beauty, ART and they never, ever
speak about Aesthetics values because for them, it
serves no value because it isn't "productive"
or creates wealth.... you never hear of any of
the conservatives around here comment on
Aesthetic values.. why? Because it has no value
to them... it isn't "productive"...

the entire case of the conservative lies in this,
is it "productive?" and all values are examined in
this guise of being "productive"..

Ironically, or perhaps not, the Marxist's also hold
to this utilitarian understanding of the universe...
is it "productive?" that is the conservative/marxist
question about the universe..

but there is more than just a person/program/ideals
being "productive" this is why the conservative tries
to take away or remove such programs from schools,
it isn't "productive" in their viewpoint.. it isn't worth
the money spent on it...for the conservative only
believes in utilitarian values.. thus school is to
train children to be workers, consumers, producers,
and it has no other value for the conservative...


why teach ART or drama or history or philosophy when
those classes cannot produce any value or be "productive",
in the conservative eyes... as everything is just from
a utilitarian value...so you won't hear a conservative,
or a Marxist for that matter, talk about beauty or a sunset
or love or hope... for those values are not "productive",
they don't create wealth...... especially for those who own
the means of production, which is the wealthy..
and that is the class that drives this utilitarian
understanding of the universe....if it doesn't create
wealth for the upper class, it has no value...

and how do values like love or hope, create value for the upper class?
it doesn't.. thus it is downgraded or even destroyed....

thus when asked by the press, what should average American's do
to support the Iraqi war, bush Jr. said, go shopping.. for that
creates value for the upper class.. and thus has some value for
them...did bush Jr. say, support ART or look at a sunset, nope,
because they aren't "productive" values.. they don't create wealth
for the upper class...it is ludicrous for the lower class/the working poor
to hold utilitarian values, values of the upper class/the conservative,
because those values don't actually improves one's lives..

I hold to a different principle, that to actually improve our lives,
we should abandon utilitarian values.. but we should hold to
Aesthetic values of seeking beauty, love, hope, justice...

the attempt to 'improve' our lives by economics, by the
purchasing of material goods, has failed.. we have
failed (and communism failed) by tying our lives
to materialism and utilitarian values... to what is useful,
and will be ''productive'', not to what is aesthetically pleasing...

and the point of thinking about the difference between
the useful and the Aesthetic is the difference between feeding our
souls and feeding our bodies... the conservative is about feeding
the body, materialism and the liberal is far more moderate,
feeding the body as well as feeding the soul...
that aesthetics is as important as the body...
that Art and beauty and love and hope are as important
as the production of wealth...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 9:10 pm

let us look at the last two administrations,
IQ45 and the Biden administrations,
who has tried to put the environment first?

if it were up to the conservatives, they would have
happily, sold the entire American national park system to private
ventures.. why? to make it "productive" to feed our pocketbooks,
and not our souls... I have done two separate weeklong backpacking
trips.. I have fed my soul on the beauty and wonder of the natural
world, but beauty, Aesthetics values like beauty and love have
no purpose or point to the conservative.. for it isn't "productive"
it doesn't create wealth for the wealthy person, thus it has no value....

who talks about feeding the soul? certainly not the conservative,
who only values utilitarian values....

now the conservative babbles about morals, but what morals
are they talking about? They certainly don't believe in god or love
or justice or even Jesus....and they clearly aren't "Pro-life"...
but they do hold to utilitarian values, if it is "productive"
it is "moral" and "just"... their morality is tied to this idea
of utilitarian useage..... not to any aesthetic values like
beauty or love or hope....

and to do so marks one as being utopian, which actually
means one who holds that aesthetics has as much value as the
creation of wealth... that is what is called utopian in the
conservative world.... if it doesn't create wealth, it is utopian..

and would the Marxist also claim that not being practical,
to be concern with aesthetics is to be concerned with
matters of unimportance to the state....

thus in the end, there is no difference between those who
hold to capitalism and to those who hold to communism..
they are holders of materialism, which is utilitarian...

Kroptkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 9:26 pm

the major difference between these isms, or
ideologies is in their eschatology, or in their
understanding of the end times...
the end of the human age, human history
or the end of the world itself....

Marxism has created its own version of heaven,
which is the ''final'' human state of a workless,
classless society, and in capitalism, there is no end...
just endless consumption and production of materials,
of the making and buying of goods like cars or houses
or TV sets...there is no other possibilities within
capitalism... what else has capitalism offered us?

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 9:36 pm

I hold there is something outside of or beyond
the production and consumption of material goods,
and for the conservative/Marxists, that is simply
heresy, blasphemy,...that is untrue to the capitalist or
communist... the material world is the only world
of having value to the communist/capitalist...

a forest has no other value then to be made "productive",
and the communist and the capitalist would both agree with
this...and act on this "fact" that the natural world only as value
if it is "productive" creates wealth, either for the upper class
or for society... and does a forest have any other value besides
the creation of wealth? not according to the capitalist or to
the communist...

thus is it not only possible, but it is necessary for their to b
be another political class, those who are liberals and those
liberals are anti-communist... and this class was very well known
during from 1930 to 1980.. and it has fallen into disrepute since then...

but its time has come again... to be liberal without being communist,
that is the pathway into the future...

and that is where I sit today, liberal but being anti-communist...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 9:36 pm

my apologies, double post

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 30, 2022 10:13 pm

[quote="Peter Kropotkin"]I hold there is something outside of or beyond
the production and consumption of material goods,
and for the conservative/Marxists, that is simply
heresy, blasphemy,...that is untrue to the capitalist or
communist... the material world is the only world
of having value to the communist/capitalist...

a forest has no other value then to be made "productive",
and the communist and the capitalist would both agree with
this...and act on this "fact" that the natural world only as value
if it is "productive" creates wealth, either for the upper class
or for society... and does a forest have any other value besides
the creation of wealth? not according to the capitalist or to
the communist...

thus is it not only possible, but it is necessary for their to b
be another political class, those who are liberals and those
liberals are anti-communist... and this class was very well known
during from 1930 to 1980.. and it has fallen into disrepute since then...

but its time has come again... to be liberal without being communist,
that is the pathway into the future...

and that is where I sit today, liberal but being anti-communist...

K: upon further reflection, I should have been more clear...
anti-communist based on what the Soviet Union did which
wasn't communism as understood by Marx..

for Marx, communism was an attempt to overcome
the many failures of capitalism.. which is essentially
what unions are fighting for today.. read Marx and what he
is concerned with is with matters that are still being fought over
today.. the 5 day working week, vacation pay, health benefits,
overtime pay, decent wages for decent work... if you were to put
into simple terms what Marx wanted can be defined as

"decent wages for decent work"

that is essentially the Marxist platform.. as defined by Marx,
what we see today was added to Marxism by Lenin and Stalin,
the nonsense of communism that we think of as being communism
but really isn't...this requires a nuance view, something that
the conservative is incapable of... the world isn't black and white,
but shades of gray... and the conservative cannot and will not
see the world in this way... it is a black and white world for them....

Marx was engaged in promoting the worker, as unions are today...
and that part of Marxism, I agree with, wholeheartedly...
as a worker... I in fighting for the working man, to improve
their lot is the cause I can fight for and that isn't Un-American,
or being a traitor to want workers to have decent wages for safe jobs
with decent benefits... that is what everyone should want...
except for the conservative who wants the worker to be nothing
more than a slave..... and why should slaves be better educated?
and that leads us into the entire agenda of the upper class,
the conservative class.... to bring in workers as slaves,
slaves for life is the entire capitalist agenda...

and so we fight for workers rights, which isn't being a
"communist" as defined by Lenin or Stalin...

and so we reject utilitarian values as being against the
true values of the working class... which not only wants to
be feed in body but in soul..... and that is only possible within
the Aesthetic values of beauty, love, hope, justice..

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 31, 2022 1:57 am

to be clear, I disagree with Marxism on several fronts,
for example, Marx was clearly wrong about classes,
perhaps he was wrong in that he didn't or we still don't
understand the attack on the lower and middle class
by the one true class that does exists, the upper class...

the second area of disagreement is in its final outcome,
that of the classless or worker society being its final outcome,

I disagree with Marx on his emphasis on economics.. while
economics is an important part of existence, it isn't the only
or most crucial aspect... we can think about the meaning of
existence without giving economics first place...

Marx failed, as did Stalin and Lenin, in their
understanding of what it means to be human....
their understanding of what drives a person to act, or
not to act, as the case maybe, is flawed...

We human beings are driving by many diverse and
sometimes not understood reasons...
I hold that it is needs and the wanting to reach those
needs that drive most of, most of human beings..

our need for love or our need for safety/security,
our need for food or education or health or
perhaps it is the bodily needs or it might be the
psychological needs that drive us.. or some combination
of both... I believe that the story of human existence
and our motivations come from our needs and meeting those
needs...which certainly doesn't exist within Marx or Lenin or
Stalin...

the idea of individual needs doesn't arise within traditional
Marxist or communist literature....

it is the large movement of ism's and ideologies that
drive Marxism or communism...
the idea of Marxism of the "Dialectical materialism" ..
which is a philosophy of science, history and nature....

Marxist dialectics, as materialist philosophy, emphasizes the
importance of real-world conditions and the presence of
contradictions within things, in relations to but not limited to
class, labor, and socioeconomic interactions...
but none of these impacts us on an individual level,
this is more of a group or universal level... Marxism isn't
really about the individual or its personal values...

it is a large scale understanding of the universe...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue May 31, 2022 2:12 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:thus we can see this utilitarian value
in their approach to aesthetic values..
the conservatives, such as motor, UR, and Magnus
hates such things as beauty, ART and they never, ever
speak about Aesthetics values because for them, it
serves no value because it isn't "productive"
or creates wealth.... you never hear of any of
the conservatives around here comment on
Aesthetic values.. why? Because it has no value
to them... it isn't "productive"...


Cardi B versus Danica Crnogorcevic.
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 31, 2022 2:36 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:thus we can see this utilitarian value
in their approach to aesthetic values..
the conservatives, such as motor, UR, and Magnus
hates such things as beauty, ART and they never, ever
speak about Aesthetics values because for them, it
serves no value because it isn't "productive"
or creates wealth.... you never hear of any of
the conservatives around here comment on
Aesthetic values.. why? Because it has no value
to them... it isn't "productive"...


Cardi B versus Danica Crnogorcevic.


K: as I don't know who either one is, I'll pass...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue May 31, 2022 5:48 pm

Card B is the queen of the political left in the West, Danica is the queen of the political right in the Balkans. Both are musicians. However, one of them sucks big time. Guess who?
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 31, 2022 7:35 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Card B is the queen of the political left in the West, Danica is the queen of the political right in the Balkans. Both are musicians. However, one of them sucks big time. Guess who?


K: still have no idea as I don't know either one...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Sculptor » Tue May 31, 2022 9:36 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Card B is the queen of the political left in the West, Danica is the queen of the political right in the Balkans. Both are musicians. However, one of them sucks big time. Guess who?


Your posts get progressively more stupid
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:58 pm

still have no idea as I don't know either one...


Then do some research.
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Re: Utilitarian values

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:11 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:-
--- just more communist fake narrative BS.


You never miss an opportunity you show yourself to be totally ignorant, and stupid.
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