The loss of ART, why?

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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:37 am

Don’t mind if I do.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:48 am

Ichthus.

You have a book of untruths. It’s only about 1000 pages. If that’s what you want forever... I’ll give it to you forever.

I’m done with you. I know what you want. I’ll keep posting to you as replies, but I’m done with you.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:12 am

Word.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:48 am

Ichthus77 wrote:And whose generation counts as the authority? Doesn’t the last generation ALWAYS diss the current one?


The goal is for one generation to pass all of its knowledge to the next so that the latter can benefit from it (instead of starting from ground zero.) Of course, the transmission doesn't have to be, and should not be, a one-sided, dictatorial, one; it is to be expected that the previous generations made mistakes that should be corrected by newer generations. But every generation must be aware of, and fully understand, the previous generation in order to gain the most out of it. It's rarely, if ever, the case that the previous generations are completely wrong about everything, and thus, that they have nothing that can be built on top of. Of course, one doesn't have to learn from one's parents, one can also learn from other people e.g. from family friends, peers, complete strangers, etc. That's another way knowledge can be transmitted. But learning from strangers carries a bit of a risk in that they might be -- and in the current climate, that risk might be extremely high -- uninterested in what's good for you as much as they are interested in what's good for them; basically, they may end up exploiting you for their own ends. In general, the problem is when someone's level of influence (e.g. such as those of parents) is unjustly restricted in order to increase someone else's (e.g. that of the state) leading to the excessive centralization of authority. I'd say it is precisely that which leads to the severing of the inter-generational communication and the subsequent tendency of the last generation to diss the current one.

Maybe “it’s popular” and “it’s old” is not the best way to determine if something is good, beautiful, or true?


Well, I for one don't think that baby boomers (who are older than me) know much about art. As an example, the kind of music they grew up listening to and loving isn't really that great -- it's actually pretty bad in many ways -- and I am of the opinion that's partly because they were targeted. It wasn't their fathers teaching their sons to wear bell-bottoms. Someone else did. Perhaps it wasn't intentional -- it doesn't have to be -- but the effect is the same. Their parents failed to exert influence over them and convince them that they shouldn't dress that way.

But here's the thing . . . when they got older, they figured some things out and were able to spot degeneration in subsequent generations. Some of them even became aware of their own. One eventually learns with time. That's probably why being young is worshipped nowadays.

It’s interesting how knock-off or mass-produced art & cover bands are often considered unoriginal kitsch, despite their popularity (hence economically lucrative).


A lot of it is better than what art critics praise. Not everything that is popular is bad. In fact, a lot of it is decent. But as an example, the most popular form of music nowadays is rap -- and a particularly bad kind of it.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:26 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:If great art exists, but isn't popular, then it's not representative of the age and shouldn't be used as a proof that art isn't degenerating. Music is very clearly degenerating. There's no way in hell a sane person would find autotune and barely comprehensible, poorly spoken, words a pleasure to listen to. It has something to do with impressionable youth and continuing diminishment of parental influence.


The existence of autotune is not evidence that music is degenerating
In the same way that the existence vending machines is not evidence that cuisine is degenerating.
Autotune is evidence of technological progress, allowing bad singers to sell records.
A vending machine is an example of technological progress, allowing bad food to be dispensed to idiots who wants to buy it.
There is more fine music out there; more diverse; more interesting; and available to more people than at anytime in history. The technologies not only provide new music from a wide spectrum of artistic achievements, but also make such music from the past, which serve as continuing examples of excellence to emulate into the future.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:29 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:SCU: Speaking as an artist to a non-artist. If you don't know what art is then you have no business starting this thread.

K; In fact, I wrote a novel a few years ago that is still on the internet,
and sold a whole 13 copies...I am an author who has
sold books....I made roughly 28 dollars and 15 cents...
of course, spent a couple of hundred getting it online...
and it isn't that good a novel,
but that doesn't negate the fact that I wrote a novel
and got some money for it...

Kropotkin


Are you saying that your art is bad or good?
Is the fact that your book can be seen by others represents a "LOSS of art", or an extension of art?
Is your book still out there, and what did you write about?
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:21 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:SCU: Speaking as an artist to a non-artist. If you don't know what art is then you have no business starting this thread.

K; In fact, I wrote a novel a few years ago that is still on the internet,
and sold a whole 13 copies...I am an author who has
sold books....I made roughly 28 dollars and 15 cents...
of course, spent a couple of hundred getting it online...
and it isn't that good a novel,
but that doesn't negate the fact that I wrote a novel
and got some money for it...

Kropotkin


Are you saying that your art is bad or good?
Is the fact that your book can be seen by others represents a "LOSS of art", or an extension of art?
Is your book still out there, and what did you write about?


Also curious.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:25 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:And whose generation counts as the authority? Doesn’t the last generation ALWAYS diss the current one?


The goal is for one generation to pass all of its knowledge to the next so that the latter can benefit from it (instead of starting from ground zero.) Of course, the transmission doesn't have to be, and should not be, a one-sided, dictatorial, one; it is to be expected that the previous generations made mistakes that should be corrected by newer generations. But every generation must be aware of, and fully understand, the previous generation in order to gain the most out of it. It's rarely, if ever, the case that the previous generations are completely wrong about everything, and thus, that they have nothing that can be built on top of. Of course, one doesn't have to learn from one's parents, one can also learn from other people e.g. from family friends, peers, complete strangers, etc. That's another way knowledge can be transmitted. But learning from strangers carries a bit of a risk in that they might be -- and in the current climate, that risk might be extremely high -- uninterested in what's good for you as much as they are interested in what's good for them; basically, they may end up exploiting you for their own ends. In general, the problem is when someone's level of influence (e.g. such as those of parents) is unjustly restricted in order to increase someone else's (e.g. that of the state) leading to the excessive centralization of authority. I'd say it is precisely that which leads to the severing of the inter-generational communication and the subsequent tendency of the last generation to diss the current one.

Maybe “it’s popular” and “it’s old” is not the best way to determine if something is good, beautiful, or true?


Well, I for one don't think that baby boomers (who are older than me) know much about art. As an example, the kind of music they grew up listening to and loving isn't really that great -- it's actually pretty bad in many ways -- and I am of the opinion that's partly because they were targeted. It wasn't their fathers teaching their sons to wear bell-bottoms. Someone else did. Perhaps it wasn't intentional -- it doesn't have to be -- but the effect is the same. Their parents failed to exert influence over them and convince them that they shouldn't dress that way.

But here's the thing . . . when they got older, they figured some things out and were able to spot degeneration in subsequent generations. Some of them even became aware of their own. One eventually learns with time. That's probably why being young is worshipped nowadays.

It’s interesting how knock-off or mass-produced art & cover bands are often considered unoriginal kitsch, despite their popularity (hence economically lucrative).


A lot of it is better than what art critics praise. Not everything that is popular is bad. In fact, a lot of it is decent. But as an example, the most popular form of music nowadays is rap -- and a particularly bad kind of it.


You dissed the Beatles & VG in a previous post, so not sure how we’re supposed to consider you an authority. Also… what standard of Beauty gives “degeneration” actual meaning?

That’s all I have time for rn.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:14 pm

You dissed the Beatles & VG in a previous post, so not sure how we’re supposed to consider you an authority.


You don't have to consider me an authority. You can consider Kropotkin an authority instead. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. Maybe Kropotkin is wrong, maybe he's right. Maybe both of us are wrong. Either way, he stated his opinion, I stated mine.

Humans have needs. Whether any given thing is good or bad depends on how well it can satiate those needs. The same applies to works of art. That's how you measure how objectively good any given work of art is. You take a look at the set of all human needs and how well each one of them can be satiated by that work of art. Of course, it's advisable not to focus on literally all human needs, as that could, and will, lead to strange results, but merely on those that have to do with art. Hunger is an example of a need that is unrelated to art.

Also… what standard of Beauty gives “degeneration” actual meaning?


Beauty is a simpler concept because it refers to how strongly a given physical appearance is correlated with positive / desirable traits. It's very clearly an objective thing that exists outside of human minds.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:33 pm

M. And.,

So you think art and the beautiful are not linked?

Do you think beauty would exist without subjects/Subject?
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:07 pm

So you think art and the beautiful are not linked?


Linked, sure, but not the same. As an example, that which is beautiful is not necessarily a work of art. A beautiful woman, for example, is not a work of art.

Do you think beauty would exist without subjects/Subject?


Yes, I do. Subjects are really only required to exist in order for the word "beauty", the concept of beauty and feelings of beauty to exist. Beauty itself does not require them. But note that beauty is relative i.e. a thing is either beautiful or ugly to someone. Beauty is a property of an object denoting the type of correlation that exists between its physical appearance and a set of traits that are valuable to someone. When most, if not all, of the objects that have the same exact physical appearance have traits that are valuable to some person P, we say the object is beautiful to that person P; when most of the objects that look the same have traits that are NOT valuable to that person P, we say it's ugly to P. "Feelings of beauty" is a different thing, denoting one's perception of beauty i.e. what one thinks is beautiful to them without that necessarily being the case.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:08 pm

Think of colors. Are colors subjective or objective? Would they exist without subjects? It all depends on what kind of concept of color we're talking about. There isn't one such concept. By examining how we talk, one can notice that we usually, but not always, talk about colors as if they are something that belongs to objects e.g. we say "Bananas are yellow" implying that the color "yellow" is something that belongs to the object, the banana, rather than us, the perceivers, the ones looking at the banana. The language itself suggests that we use the word "color" to refer to something that is objective. But that's not the only sense in which the word "color" is used. We also often speak of colors as if they are something that exists within human minds e.g. "Color is a quale that exists within human minds and that is caused by light hitting our eyes". That's why the question can't be answered in a simple manner because it all depends on what kind of concept of color we're talking about. But that certainly didn't stop people from claiming that the former, and the typical, usage of the word is incorrect due to the realization that the color of an object depends on the biology of the one looking at it e.g. where trichromats see a red apple, dichromats see a yellow one. That sort of thinking misses the point entirely and is an instance of what I'd call an excessively materialistic / concretistic way of thinking characterized by lower ability for abstract thought. As far as these people are concerned, nothing except for what can be touched exists (something that is obviously false given that many things that can't be touched exist e.g. change, time, motion, laws, values, feelings, beliefs, points in space, points in time, etc.)
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:15 am

“When most, if not all, of the objects that have the same exact physical appearance have traits that are valuable to some person P, we say the object is beautiful to that person P; when most of the objects that look the same have traits that are NOT valuable to that person P, we say it's ugly to P.” - M. And.

Can beauty be perceived regardless of extrinsic value … as a value/end in itself?
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:31 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:Can beauty be perceived regardless of extrinsic value … as a value/end in itself?


No.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Ichthus77 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:39 pm

It must have utility?

I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby MagsJ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:50 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
So you think art and the beautiful are not linked?

Linked, sure, but not the same. As an example, that which is beautiful is not necessarily a work of art. A beautiful woman, for example, is not a work of art.

Nah nah nah Magnus, I’ve seen beautiful people that are definitely a work of [living] Art.

For instance.. hitting symmetry in One’s lineage ev’ry single time is a great feat, as it is no mean feat.. such people are known for their looks -if nothing else- even though they probably have other useful traits and qualities to offer the world, such types are still reduced to the sum of their parts/their looks.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:31 am

Ichthus77 wrote:It must have utility?


Beauty doesn't have to be useful in order to exist (or even be perceived) but to say that something is beautiful is to say that its physical appearance is strongly correlated with traits that are valuable to someone or that would be of value to someone if that someone existed.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:59 am

I am constantly overwhelmed by the avalanche of art we face everyday. There is so much of it that it is possible that some of us do not realise how much there is. Like blind person stumbling in to tree in the forest saying there is no wood.

"The loss of ART, why?" It's more like the loss of reason, the loss of sight, or the loss of a basic ability to get up off your arse and open your eyes.

As I speak I see to my right a collection of "Smilies", all artistically designed, above a Logo declaring "Provoking thought since 2001". to my left a series of Icons which indicate short routes to other applications., and so below. So just on my sterile unartistic laptop I see art. But looking around my sitting room there is art everywhere, from the design of my teacup, DVD covers, CD covers, furniture design some old some new.
And then I see the TV screen which is the outlet for non-stop art, far too great to describe in number and content, from set designs, costume, and even programs about art. There is even a channel SPECIFICALLY dedicated to ART FFS.
Today I can watch two different series of art competitions; portrait and landscape in which amateur artists (who are fucking brilliant BTW) compete a series of challenges; there are programs about famous artists, etc..

Lost of art ? - what the fuck is wrong with your eyes?
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:15 pm

What came first?

The impulse towards/for expression.
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:42 pm

Arc, hi

Too close to call only Muse sees it all

and sometimes wonder about that two/too
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:01 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:What came first?

The impulse towards/for expression.




I would hazard for
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:15 pm

The artistic impulse predates humanity.
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:15 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:What came first?

The impulse towards/for expression.


In order to ask what came first you have to have at least two alternatives
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:44 pm

There appears to be: to ward or for (4)
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Re: The loss of ART, why?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:59 pm

Meno_ wrote:There appears to be: to ward or for (4)
...


..and why?

Or how?


That. Is begging that question



Clarification: >>>>>>



toward or forward

2ward or 4 ward. ( where 2 ward~is similar to ward off)
4 ward entails to an upper limit ( through 3)

The notation is non sensible to any persons not acquainted with kabbalah or basic numerology.

As art can be grounded on some cubistically fall back from traditional fiorm- this condition is a requirement


The latter condition of begging the question remains unchanged. ( if unchallenged)
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