What came first...

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed May 11, 2022 1:07 pm

Regarding Ec’s cat… every moment is not alive/dead. Every moment is creative/complete (all alive). We don’t create it ourselves, or collectively, but in partnership with the alpha/omega. There is no sleeping… the completeness is the rest. It’s all alive/creative/conscious… on the “other side” …don’t go that way … NOT recommended …

I know. Too late.

Never again.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 11, 2022 4:23 pm

Never
2 late
Never say Never
4 ever = for ever after
after all
that's said
and done
It's sad to say
It's ever gone
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed May 11, 2022 4:41 pm

If God wants something on the inside (holiest of holies), it will be real/actual on the outside, too. Proverbs 27:5.

Nothing is private to him. His cards have always already been on the table. For those who have eyes to see.

Mic drop^3.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 12, 2022 12:36 am

.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu May 12, 2022 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 12, 2022 12:50 am

that’s why I like Don Richardson’s “eternity in their hearts.” The truth is transcultural, but error always tries to sneak in with it & rob the joy. (Why? Tell me why.) That book helps sift truth from error.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Sculptor » Thu May 12, 2022 9:34 am

Ichthus77 wrote:What came first, the word or the ability to produce and/or comprehend it?

WFT is "it"?

I’m studying cognitive processes so they say we’re hard wired to do language ... written/read included ... as evidenced by double dissociation revealed in damaged brain studies.

Got me thankin ;) (I am, therefore I think?)

Apologies if other threads go unanswered.


In arguments about about coming first - it is always the eggs.
Recognising intent in the rest of the universe always comes before intentional demonstration of that intent, since information concerning threats area given out unintentionally, but the ability to recognise threats has massive selective advantage. Thus it is hugely more likely that the ability to read the world about you has to predate that ability to communicate.

Let's say a single celled organism (SCO) needs to find food by detecting a chemical in the water. Any mutation that causes the SCO to follow the chemical trail will have a massive advantage over those who just happen upon the food. Thus the ability to read a sign is founded.
SCO s have no reason to advertise their presence, since they do not mate, so stealth is a more important quality that communicating.
It's always the egg.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Sculptor » Thu May 12, 2022 9:39 am

felix dakat wrote:
Ichthus wrote:What came first, the word or the ability to produce and/or comprehend it?

I’m studying cognitive processes so they say we’re hard wired to do language ... written/read included ... as evidenced by double dissociation revealed in damaged brain studies.

Got me thankin ;) (I am, therefore I think?)

Apologies if other threads go unanswered.


The first level of language are exclamation of pleasure or cries of pain, like "yay"or "ouch". They are close to pure spontaneous verbal expressions of feeling which are pre-linguistic. Those come first. But, they're not really words. And, even those can be understood by someone who's experienced similar feelings through the capacity of empathy which means "feeling along with". I would say that capacity precedes the formation of actual words. You can see it, for example in cats, like a mother cat who responds to the hunger cries of its kittens.


I suppose the question here is why make a noise.
Rabbits never make a sound above the sub-audible, until they are predated.
Reptiles do not cry out in pain as far as I know.
I could be wrong but anything lower that a bird or mammal does not cry out, yet they do have means of communication, some of it amazing, such as chirruping insects, croaking frogs, clacking fish, and butterfly displays.
So communication is not a development from crying out in pain, but predates it.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Otto » Thu May 12, 2022 1:38 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:What came first, the word or the ability to produce and/or comprehend it?

In lingusitics, especially language acquisition and language development research (language history research), there is no doubt that first there must be the ability for the production of speech sounds, so the sounds are the first. The linguists also call the sounds "phones" to distinguish them from the "phonemes", which play a role when sounds can be determined as what phonemes are: smallest segmentable phonetic units abstracted from the sound stream of speech with potential meaning-distinguishing function. –  In the development and acquisition of language, therefore, this first precondition must be given.

The second thing that comes into play is the "morph". It is the smallest meaning-bearing phonetic segment of an utterance, which is not yet classified as representative of a "morpheme". A morpheme is an abstract (theory-related) unit. It is represented phonetically-phonologically (see above) by a morph as the smallest meaning-bearing but not yet classified phonetic segment. (Note: We still have not arrived at the word!).

Only now do we get to the word. The word is already a more complex entity than those from the field of phonetics and phonology and the field of morphology and graphology. Decisive was first the potential meaning-distinguishing function (see above: 1st paragraph) and then the smallest meaning-bearing phonetic segment of an utterance (see above: 2nd paragraph). Now this carrying of meaning becomes more and more complex (see next paragraph).

The next level is the sentence. About the sentence, many still know from school what it means. In linguistics, since 1957 and especially since 1965, Noam Chomsky and his theory of syntax have gained acceptance. I will not go into this in detail now, because that would mean that I would have to present an entire basic study in linguistics now.

What is relatively new, but on the other hand not really new, is text linguistics. Roughly speaking, the text can be understood as an extended, enlarged sentence. After all, when one encounters language for the first time, one does not want to produce only one sound (see 1st paragraph), nor to understand it in combination with others only morphologically (see 2nd paragraph), nor necessarily as only one word (see 3rd paragraph), and perhaps not even as only one sentence (see 4th paragraph); but one wants to say a whole text, to say something about the world, without having to limit oneself to one sentence, one word, one morph(em) and one phon(em). And this starts very early. You can observe this in children (I did it often during my studies and also privately with my children).
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 12, 2022 3:27 pm

Relevant: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... 4&start=25

Also want to share stuff from cog text. But no time for now.

Thanks.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:41 pm

Here’s a question.

Say technology makes mind melding possible, so that you can be together in the same thought-space while retaining your self. Who has the right to say they were there first? Everyone is first in their own head, but if “their own head” is 2+ heads, there are as many firsts, even though one is probably older (and one Original), and one, both/all, or none of the above/below (except Original) may have consented to the meld. So whose house, whose rules? Revert to Golden!
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:25 pm

Very preliminary appearent melt , echoes of Ec ho , back to put future or back to back present past.

Violating house rules, no good, going along the program is.( present)


The original is never ascertainable for the most part, so they are thrown in an appearent repetitious over the incremental negative limit (within one imperceptible limit) so who can recover it ? Who? Or what?

It may rebound by It's Self, into safety, but will be penalized.

That melts down is at times necessary, as a reactive effect between two states ( thermodynamics slide) to again , but this time safely out of bounds.

Incidentally no idea cause I played soccer picked up football lingo from John John grandson.


The hermeanutic tradition of conversion, is living proof being well and good as metaphor and becomes significant with a chorus singing: 'art fir It's Own sake' determining similar frames of reference and hence determining it's own representation.

With the digitalization of phenomenally 'intuited' forces appearent, say in Shakespeare's Tempest, let's see now how such recovery manifests never reason it.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:28 pm

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THE MEETING OF GOETHE AND HERDER in Strasbourg in 1770 was probably the most momentous encounter in the history of German literature, outranking even that of Goethe and Schiller in Weimar twenty-odd years later. By that time Goethe's and Schiller's literary paths were already converging in a new form of neoclassicism. But in 1770 Herder transformed the imagination of the twenty-one-year-old Goethe, released it from the frivolities of the rococo or the artificial constraints of an earlier, outmoded neoclassicism of French origin, and revealed to Goethe new and powerful sources of inspiration: the national heritage of German culture, embodied in history, folklore, folk song, and ballad, and the free, unfettered, original, but also profoundly “national” dramatic genius of Shakespeare. Herder's own panegyric on Shakespeare appeared in its final version in his collection Von deutscher Art und Kunst in 1773; Goethe's address Zum Schäkespears Tag (For Shakespeare's Nameday) had already been delivered to a circle of like-minded enthusiasts on Goethe's return to his native Frankfurt in the autumn of 1771. Inspired by Shakespeare, Goethe declares, he hesitated not a moment in renouncing the “regular” theater and casting off the “fetters” of the supposedly Aristotelian unities of action, time, and place. Shakespeare's ......"
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:37 pm

Meno_ wrote:Book contents
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Cite
Summary
THE MEETING OF GOETHE AND HERDER in Strasbourg in 1770 was probably the most momentous encounter in the history of German literature, outranking even that of Goethe and Schiller in Weimar twenty-odd years later. By that time Goethe's and Schiller's literary paths were already converging in a new form of neoclassicism. But in 1770 Herder transformed the imagination of the twenty-one-year-old Goethe, released it from the frivolities of the rococo or the artificial constraints of an earlier, outmoded neoclassicism of French origin, and revealed to Goethe new and powerful sources of inspiration: the national heritage of German culture, embodied in history, folklore, folk song, and ballad, and the free, unfettered, original, but also profoundly “national” dramatic genius of Shakespeare. Herder's own panegyric on Shakespeare appeared in its final version in his collection Von deutscher Art und Kunst in 1773; Goethe's address Zum Schäkespears Tag (For Shakespeare's Nameday) had already been delivered to a circle of like-minded enthusiasts on Goethe's return to his native Frankfurt in the autumn of 1771. Inspired by Shakespeare, Goethe declares, he hesitated not a moment in renouncing the “regular” theater and casting off the “fetters” of the supposedly Aristotelian unities of action, time, and place. Shakespeare's ......"





See you. Started a storm with storm to go enthusiastically & try to connect with nominal gestures...

After all commitment is cincommittanf with fidelity and I hope can cross cross the web without unnecessarily acquired hindreance which spells at least a guilty conscience or somewhat.Nevertheless with now some ample time on my hands try to cram about 40 years of colonial temporal waste into a shortcutted/gutted - unproven post primary bad assurance of ingenious methods ( early promise( ....sans in....the genii remains bottled up...

Its lot easier with 2 cyberheads now . though someday try to show how my friend be lived and passed gave me the clue.)

Cut.


Actually for an assemblage it a collage to bad reassembled. it is a lit more challenging then deconstructing objectively. Mitigating the effects of residual inflation.
Is tell me myself, bro not to worry about it . limits need actual demons trative gestures to make sense ..(.out of it)
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:52 pm

I wasn’t going to post this. I mess around with ideas. Your bit on Gerthe (lol … !!!) & Shakespeare reminded me of it. Quality up top, but anyway. I’m embarrassing myself.
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Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:32 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:Here’s a question.

Say technology makes mind melding possible, so that you can be together in the same thought-space while retaining your self. Who has the right to say they were there first? Everyone is first in their own head, but if “their own head” is 2+ heads, there are as many firsts, even though one is probably older (and one Original), and one, both/all, or none of the above/below (except Original) may have consented to the meld. So whose house, whose rules? Revert to Golden!


lol the reparations game in thought space... preborn… as if there are two realities inside womb versus out! same same

Tables will turn. Just wait longer.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:23 am

Ichthus77 wrote:I wasn’t going to post this. I mess around with ideas. Your bit on Gerthe (lol … !!!) & Shakespeare reminded me of it. Quality up top, but anyway. I’m embarrassing myself.





No, 77 it was me, stupidly and if words had any meaning which they must. I dunno, it's just that. And besides. Other things. It hurts only while it lasts. Then, I must leave you with that Other, whose imaginations are way beyond the comprehensible.and never say sorry or good by because that means forever.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:00 am

I agree. It was definitely you.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:58 am

Ichthus77 wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:Here’s a question.

Say technology makes mind melding possible, so that you can be together in the same thought-space while retaining your self. Who has the right to say they were there first? Everyone is first in their own head, but if “their own head” is 2+ heads, there are as many firsts, even though one is probably older (and one Original), and one, both/all, or none of the above/below (except Original) may have consented to the meld. So whose house, whose rules? Revert to Golden!


lol the reparations game in thought space... preborn… as if there are two realities inside womb versus out! same same

Tables will turn. Just wait longer.





Repair games are no mere games like trying to crack a prisoners' code. Working through so much, that I could never describe, for want of other boundaries, and all this is so surprising that people would not realize what's involved.How can one repair inequality? Indian people or Afro Americans. Or the terror and mental illness imposed by guys until political pressure brought to bear by many fractional/ factional cut off groups turned the tables?
How much did that cost before they managed to turn them in blood and guts and lives that didn't matter; until some clever politician saw to changing the vector to benefit him in the next election?


But I hazard to stop with this litany of wrongs here in our country, for an effort not to tarnish the double edged blade from my own tears.for boundless fears.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:56 am

Shout. Shout. Let it all out.

Lord have mercy.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:32 pm

How did we evolve mirror neurons and all other organs/systems facilitating/mediating communication if they require the existence of another mind?

More than one mind is first, or there is a timeless Original. Miracle, either way.

P.s. I am on the fence regarding biological evolution. The statement above is true w/ or w/o that - it merely maintains that the “mind” is not biologically evolved - no more than a sender or receiver cb radio evolves a signal. Thoughts?
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:39 pm

You are partly on the right track. The earliest organic material was unisexed. It just split into two.

What happened between then and now is immaterial. Our brain is still bi, try two argue other wise, they two have their 'singular' opinions.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:49 pm

Meno_ wrote:You are partly on the right track. The earliest organic material was unisexed. It just split into two.

What happened between then and now is immaterial. Our brain is still bi, try two argue other wise, they two have their 'singular' opinions.


Bi?

Not tri?

Nice try.

It’s um. Anyway.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:53 pm

Meno_ wrote:You are partly on the right track. The earliest organic material was unisexed. It just split into two.

What happened between then and now is immaterial. Our brain is still bi, try two argue other wise, they two have their 'singular' opinions.






'Theh just don't want to admit that they are merely in converstation with themselves. This is the secret of enlightement, I mean entitlement. You are the book that's written in it's self: the author, the characters, the existential mirroring, the wboli illusive pantheistic Word, that needed God to write. Everything else is creating the illusion of time, of deoth , of being here, or there.

Blazers have been always been blazing, it's just opening. a door to another world. Crystals formed under tremendous pressure, in some god forbidden realm, where giant black holes collided, to almost crash into another universal big bang, and the inconceivable of multitude of universes that edged toward a hairy race with the sacred rurtle, who know that there is no limit as to how small or they can climb on each other
Huh?


Of course that astounding paradox is solved before or after THD WPRD when it becomes apoearent that ALL is VOID, Evan beget of energy, space, time or even the immeasurabilitu of a virtual point I am trying to make here
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:58 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:
Meno_ wrote:You are partly on the right track. The earliest organic material was unisexed. It just split into two.

What happened between then and now is immaterial. Our brain is still bi, try two argue other wise, they two have their 'singular' opinions.


Bi?

Not tri?

Nice try.

It’s um. Anyway.
sure You'r not EC ?
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:58 pm

And yet. Here I stand.

The ground is lava!

Here I dance! lol ok bye

We’re all Ec!
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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