Best song ever written

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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:50 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Time Out is also fun but from being great piece of music. So is anything by Aphex Twin (such as this piece.)


I like Jazz, so example one is interesting.
I hate example two as it has no musicianship and thatis one of my key criteria for the appreciation of music
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:56 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:They shouldn't call it "progressive". Rather pretentious term, if you ask me. The proper term would be "experimental".


I agree with many of your criticisms and musical judgements, but here I must correct you. The reason it is called progressive isn't the spirit behind it, that it's super progressive or whatever. Perhaps the confusion was purposefully allowed and it is true that, from that point of view, it is one more reason to dislike these nerds.

But the reason it is called progressive has to do with the musical structure. Rather than unfolding, the melody and harmony progresses. It is not a style of music that has an opening argument, some considerations and a conclusion, an arc shaped arc. Rather, each short amount of bars is its own argument, and the next bar only concerns itself with finding a way to progress from that last bar. There is no care or interest for an overall arc, though one can maybe be found simply by the coherence formed by the progressions. This is why #1 they can allow themselves a genius and freedom of composition that is rarely seen even in academic music and #2 why it seems to lack a soul, anything really to say. It's like they become so enamoured by and obsessed with the math that they forget they are writing an equation.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:21 pm

^^^ exactly!

The genre didn't get established until there was enough existing formulaic music and musical trends for which to be contrasted to. It is then called 'progressive' by that comparison... because of its abnormality and violation of the expected norms. It must be anatomically different from the standard forms from which it came to be progressive, and that classification continued changing until the nineties. Now nothing more substantial can be done with music, and the genre becomes ambiguous like all the mechanized sound effect crap now called progressive on the radio.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:22 pm

Here's something you may not have thought of.

Dido's lament (When I am laid in earth)

Thy hand, Belinda, darkness shades me,
On thy bosom let me rest,
More I would, but Death invades me;
Death is now a welcome guest.
When I am laid, am laid in earth,
May my wrongs create
No trouble, no trouble in thy breast;
Remember me, remember me, but ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RJKnh9hbU

It is beautiful, and incredibly sad when you know the libretto.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:29 pm

Sculptor wrote:No. It's not because I am stupid.


I didn't say it's because you're stupid. I said it's because you don't know how to do that particular thing. You don't know how to discover what you really like the most. That does not necessarily mean you're stupid -- which is a general term denoting less than average level of ability to think -- albeit in certain cases it can be implied (and when that happens, it can lead to offense and over-reaction.)

I know the difference between objective criteria and subective values.


Just to be sure, we're talking about what you like the most (not the best song ever written in general.)

GO on then. But I won't hold my breath
What are your critieria for he best song ever written?


Don't hold your breath, I am not going to do it. In the same exact way that you chose to not prove your claim, I will opt to not prove mine. I was merely offering an opinion in response to yours, my friend. You offered an opinion (and no more than that) and I merely responded by doing the same -- offering my own opinion.

That's only because you are not cool, but I am.


That's ironic coming from someone who thinks that there's no such thing as "the best song ever written".

That's only because you are ignorant of the history of music. It is progressive because that words was used to best describe the emerging rack genre of 1970, from the Like of ELP, King Crimson, Pink Floyd and others.


"Progressive" implies they are doing something better than the rest. "Progressive" as in "moving forward", "moving beyond the established formulas towards what is better". It sends the message "You guys over there, you are stagnant." And in a limited sense, they are progressive. They are trying to move away from the established conventions -- that much is true. But are they moving towards the better? I wouldn't say so. Their work has value -- that's for sure -- but I'd say it's far from being better than what was already there. "Experimental" is a much better term. THe fact it has no positive connation is probably the reason it wasn't picked. "Weird" is also applicable but that that's towards the negative, so that's clearly a big no from their point of view.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:35 pm

promethean75 wrote:^^^ exactly!

The genre didn't get established until there was enough existing formulaic music and musical trends for which to be contrasted to. It is then called 'progressive' by that comparison... because of its abnormality and violation of the expected norms. It must be anatomically different from the standard forms from which it came to be progressive, and that classification continued changing until the nineties. Now nothing more substantial can be done with music, and the genre becomes ambiguous like all the mechanized sound effect crap now called progressive on the radio.


I don't know about this. It was always fairly formulaic. Similar beat signatures, for one, and this whole concept of the progression of melody, and many of the specific progressions were similar to each other. This all simply gets covered by the fact that, even within this strict formula, the freedom and complexity is almost unparalleled. And, other than where it is paralleled, in exponentially greater degree.

To me, because I like romance, I think of them as 'the guys who sold their soul to the devil.' In return they got mad skills and compositions that leave everything else gasping for air in the dust, but for that they had to relinquish soul. From the very beginning, there is nothing for the soul to chew on. You listen to a Mozart piece, or whatever, or Ra Ra Rasputin, and your soul eats, a clear message is transmitted, the melodies and harmonies progress to something, there is something being built up to. But progressive music doesn't progress to anything in particular, it just progresses, it just builds, like an entire episode made of cliffhangers.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:42 pm

You'll all probably hate this, but here goes.

These lyrics just summon up great images, of muddy Brazilian roads and more.
Written by Antonio Carlos Jobim the man that gave you Garrota d'Ipanema

Possibly one of the most covered songs of all time,best done as a duet I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBEesrdaRog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4MKUTyslC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3oNSFQVzNM

My particular favourite is this one because of the unadorned beautiful simplicity of her voice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzVNJGt0V5U

A stick, a stone
It's the end of the road
It's the rest of a stump
It's a little alone

It's a sliver of glass
It is life, it's the sun
It is night, it is death
It's a trap, it's a gun

The oak when it blooms
A fox in the brush
A knot in the wood
The song of a thrush

The wood of the wind
A cliff, a fall
A scratch, a lump
It is nothing at all

It's the wind blowing free
It's the end of the slope
It's a beam, it's a void
It's a hunch, it's a hope

And the river bank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the end of the strain
The joy in your heart

The foot, the ground
The flesh and the bone
The beat of the road
A slingshot's stone

A fish, a flash
A silvery glow
A fight, a bet
The range of a bow

The bed of the well
The end of the line
The dismay in the face
It's a loss, it's a find

A spear, a spike
A point, a nail
A drip, a drop
The end of the tale

A truckload of bricks
In the soft morning light
The shot of a gun
In the dead of the night

A mile, a must
A thrust, a bump
It's a girl, it's a rhyme
It's a cold, it's the mumps

The plan of the house
The body in bed
And the car that got stuck
It's the mud, it's the mud

Afloat, adrift
A flight, a wing
A hawk, a quail
The promise of spring

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the promise of life
It's the joy in your heart

A stick, a stone
It's the end of the road
It's the rest of a stump
It's a little alone

A snake, a stick
It is John, it is Joe
It's a thorn in your hand
And a cut in your toe

A point, a grain
A bee, a bite
A blink, a buzzard
A sudden stroke of night

A pin, a needle
A sting, a pain
A snail, a riddle
A wasp, a stain

A pass in the mountains
A horse and a mule
In the distance the shelves
Rode three shadows of blue

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the promise of life
In your heart, in your heart

A stick, a stone
The end of the road
The rest of a stump
A lonesome road

A sliver of glass
A life, the sun
A knife, a death
The end of the run

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the end of all strain
It's the joy in your heart
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:48 pm

The nice thing about progressive metal is that the sounds are much more homogeneous, so the formula becomes clearer.



A more advanced example:



No, I certainly do not know why octopuses feature so prominently in progressive metal.

In this second example, it is even more clear how each movement reaches for something, grasps for something, seems to imply a resolution, but only leads to another movement that progresses from it, and simply keeps asking questions, and the whole album is a groping, a reaching. So, too, is all progressive rock a groping, a reaching, a joy in the subtleties of melodic-harmonic composition without any actual interest in solving any of its problems.

Take a Bach composition. It is a flurry of melodies and harmonies, a chaos of implications and questions. But he never poses a problem he is not willing to see through to the end, a question he is not willing to answer:

Last edited by Aventador on Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:49 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
"Progressive" implies they are doing something better than the rest. "Progressive" as in "moving forward", "moving beyond the established formulas towards what is better". It sends the message "You guys over there, you are stagnant."

And that precisely and exactly describes what they were doing.

They took rock to a place where composing excellence and brilliant musicianship were taken to be a premium.

Take a look at the stuf, claimed to be the best 3 songs of 1970 - the best sellers were:

01 Elvis Presley The Wonder Of You
02 Mungo Jerry In The Summertime
03 Freda Payne Band Of Gold

These are good songs but like chewing gum. Popular and temporary.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:53 pm

Aventador wrote:I agree with many of your criticisms and musical judgements, but here I must correct you. The reason it is called progressive isn't the spirit behind it, that it's super progressive or whatever. Perhaps the confusion was purposefully allowed and it is true that, from that point of view, it is one more reason to dislike these nerds.

But the reason it is called progressive has to do with the musical structure. Rather than unfolding, the melody and harmony progresses. It is not a style of music that has an opening argument, some considerations and a conclusion, an arc shaped arc. Rather, each short amount of bars is its own argument, and the next bar only concerns itself with finding a way to progress from that last bar. There is no care or interest for an overall arc, though one can maybe be found simply by the coherence formed by the progressions. This is why #1 they can allow themselves a genius and freedom of composition that is rarely seen even in academic music and #2 why it seems to lack a soul, anything really to say. It's like they become so enamoured by and obsessed with the math that they forget they are writing an equation.


Let me see if I understand you. My claim is that the genre is called "progressive" to indicate that its artists are trying "to move beyond the established formulas towards something better" or in plain terms "to make better music (i.e. to innovate) instead of merely making music of the same quality (i.e. repeating the same)". I suppose that's what you're disputing. My random guess is that this is a marketing term -- perhaps nothing to do with nerds noodling on their guitars. "Progressive" as in "better than the rest" sounds like a pretty good marketing term to me. But you're saying this is wrong and that the real reason they call it "progressive" is because it lacks overall arc (i.e. moving or progressing forward without any regard for how that progression fits into the bigger picture.) I can see how that can be the case. It's certainly a very good description of that kind of music (but not merely it.) That would make the term unpretentious but still rather unfitting. (But then, what music genre has a fitting term? None.)
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:59 pm

Yes, not only the lack of overall arc, but the specific way one movements leads to another. The relationship between successive movements is progressive. Rather than resolving a movement, the next movement picks elements from it and progresses them.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:00 am

I think, if you don't already understand this fairly obscure fact about its composition, your interpretation is the intuitive one and, like I said, I think it was intentionally allowed to stand. It pleased their egos.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:05 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Aventador wrote:I agree with many of your criticisms and musical judgements, but here I must correct you. The reason it is called progressive isn't the spirit behind it, that it's super progressive or whatever. Perhaps the confusion was purposefully allowed and it is true that, from that point of view, it is one more reason to dislike these nerds.

But the reason it is called progressive has to do with the musical structure. Rather than unfolding, the melody and harmony progresses. It is not a style of music that has an opening argument, some considerations and a conclusion, an arc shaped arc. Rather, each short amount of bars is its own argument, and the next bar only concerns itself with finding a way to progress from that last bar. There is no care or interest for an overall arc, though one can maybe be found simply by the coherence formed by the progressions. This is why #1 they can allow themselves a genius and freedom of composition that is rarely seen even in academic music and #2 why it seems to lack a soul, anything really to say. It's like they become so enamoured by and obsessed with the math that they forget they are writing an equation.


Let me see if I understand you. My claim is that the genre is called "progressive" to indicate that its artists are trying "to move beyond the established formulas towards something better" or in plain terms "to make better music (i.e. to innovate) instead of merely making music of the same quality (i.e. repeating the same)". I suppose that's what you're disputing. My random guess is that this is a marketing term -- perhaps nothing to do with nerds noodling on their guitars. "Progressive" as in "better than the rest" sounds like a pretty good marketing term to me. But you're saying this is wrong and that the real reason they call it "progressive" is because it lacks overall arc (i.e. moving or progressing forward without any regard for how that progression fits into the bigger picture.) I can see how that can be the case. It's certainly a very good description of that kind of music (but not merely it.) That would make the term unpretentious but still rather unfitting. (But then, what music genre has a fitting term? None.)

Ah, folk music, played by average folks with simple instruments and melodies.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:07 am

Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:44 am

Sculptor wrote:I like Jazz, so example one is interesting.
I hate example two as it has no musicianship and thatis one of my key criteria for the appreciation of music


Few years ago, I posted Kung Fu World Champion. Prom seemed somehwhat intrigued by it (he was far more impressed by the prog metal piece CAFO.) The best part starts at 1:16 -- the guy in sweater playing the bass. It certainly helps that one of the members is a female and an expressive one at that.

I think that most people born in 80's and later have no trouble appreciating both Richard D. James (the Kind of Techno, as some call it) and prog rock. They are pretty similar styles of music with one main difference -- one being entirely electronic. Don't know if he can play an instrument (wouldn't be surprised if he can't). I think he's more of a programmer and an engineer than an actual instrumentalist.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:57 am

Aventador wrote:Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity

An answer to MA’s last question for an apropos named genre, Folk by folks.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:00 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Aventador wrote:Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity

An answer to MA’s last question for an apropos named genre, Folk by folks.


Yeah, yes, I agree. Folk music, what happens when everybody else is trying.

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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:18 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Sculptor wrote:I like Jazz, so example one is interesting.
I hate example two as it has no musicianship and thatis one of my key criteria for the appreciation of music


Few years ago, I posted Kung Fu World Champion. Prom seemed somehwhat intrigued by it (he was far more impressed by the prog metal piece CAFO.) The best part starts at 1:16 -- the guy in sweater playing the bass. It certainly helps that one of the members is a female and an expressive one at that.

I think that most people born in 80's and later have no trouble appreciating both Richard D. James (the Kind of Techno, as some call it) and prog rock. They are pretty similar styles of music with one main difference -- one being entirely electronic. Don't know if he can play an instrument (wouldn't be surprised if he can't). I think he's more of a programmer and an engineer than an actual instrumentalist.

Exactly.
For me the "music" sounds dead and heartless.
The issue is not whether or not it is electronic.
I was 16 when Kraftwerk made Autobahn. I still listen to it. It might be electronic, but it is performed.
The issue with the thing you posted was that it is not PLAYED. Any moron can program a machine to achive 3000 beats per minute, if they want. But no machine can play drums like Billy Cobham. Try as you might people have tried to get machines to pay with feeling but it never works. Why get a machine to do what a human can do better?
Here's an example. A Human band can do change the rhythm ad hoc according to the mood.
Watch @10:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFisOTDzGuE

Techno is dying off. It has a bit surge in the time of acid house, and raves etc. but what kids went back to in the early 2000s was guitar bands. SInce then music has diversified. I suppose techno will continue to serve dance zombies who want to drop a tab and exhaust themselves, but I'd hardly call it music.

And considering diversity in music. Made me think of these darlin's.
Good old fashioned harmonising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojYK6CW8gdw
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:19 am

Aventador wrote:Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity


Oh really?
DO you have an example?
:D

More complex than this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6xMyuZls0
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Aventador » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:26 am

Sculptor wrote:
Aventador wrote:Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity


Oh really?
DO you have an example?
:D


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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:30 am

Aventador wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Aventador wrote:Hahahahaha, folk music composition tends to obliterate pop or classical music in terms of complexity


Oh really?
DO you have an example?
:D


I am not your daddy.


More complex than this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6xMyuZls0
OR THIS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6xMyuZls0
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Shepherdess » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:35 pm

Sculptor

There is no such thing as the best song ever written.
There is not even such a thing as my favourite song.


I totally agree with this. With all of the awesome music and sounds out there in the universe, how could we possibly think like this, unless we have never changed or evolved. I can go from loving slow, smooth jazz to Enya, to The Sounds of Silence, to hard rock, soft rock, Pucchini, Debussy, to ...

Il Mondo, such a heart-rending beautiful song by Patrizio Buanne)
Hearing this song at the moment of my death - would death really matter. lol

Even the Italian which I do not understand is so beautiful here. I

...they are each my favorite in the moment.
Last edited by Shepherdess on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:22 pm

Shepherdess wrote:Sculptor

There is no such thing as the best song ever written.
There is not even such a thing as my favourite song.


I totally agree with this. With all of the awesome music and sounds out there in the universe, how could we possibly think like this, unless we have never changed or evolved. I can go from loving slow, smooth jazz to Enya, to The Sounds of Silence, to hard rock, soft rock, Pucchini, Debussy, to ...

Il Mondo, such a heart-rending beautiful song by Patrizio Buanne) (always for you, Alex)
Hearing this song at the moment of my death - would death really matter. lol

Even the Italian which I do not understand is so beautiful here. I

...they are each my favorite in the moment.


Thanks.
I've been listening to and enjoying music a long time. I can only say that my fav is the song of the moment as you say.
My first (that I remember) is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx06XNfDvk0
When I hear this I am almost bodily transported to my childhood to feel the textures of childhood and the world around me. I was four years old.
I know this one was a hit the year before but did not grab so much that it affects me in the same way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PXWgvDDKxM
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:11 pm

Sculptor

My particular favourite is this one because of the unadorned beautiful simplicity of her voice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzVNJGt0V5U


That video was not showing . There were two others, females singing, too jazzy for that song for me. I enjoy jazz but ghe song seemed to be ruined for me that way. Maybe one of those women were who you were speaking of.

I personally enjoy more the way Art Garfunkle delivered the song. Seemed to be more pure and simplistic...more something else.



A stick, a stone
It's the end of the road
It's the rest of a stump
It's a little alone

It's a sliver of glass
It is life, it's the sun
It is night, it is death
It's a trap, it's a gun

The oak when it blooms
A fox in the brush
A knot in the wood
The song of a thrush

The wood of the wind
A cliff, a fall
A scratch, a lump
It is nothing at all

It's the wind blowing free
It's the end of the slope
It's a beam, it's a void
It's a hunch, it's a hope

And the river bank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the end of the strain
The joy in your heart

The foot, the ground
The flesh and the bone
The beat of the road
A slingshot's stone

A fish, a flash
A silvery glow
A fight, a bet
The range of a bow

The bed of the well
The end of the line
The dismay in the face
It's a loss, it's a find

A spear, a spike
A point, a nail
A drip, a drop
The end of the tale

A truckload of bricks
In the soft morning light
The shot of a gun
In the dead of the night

A mile, a must
A thrust, a bump
It's a girl, it's a rhyme
It's a cold, it's the mumps

The plan of the house
The body in bed
And the car that got stuck
It's the mud, it's the mud

Afloat, adrift
A flight, a wing
A hawk, a quail
The promise of spring

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the promise of life
It's the joy in your heart

A stick, a stone
It's the end of the road
It's the rest of a stump
It's a little alone

A snake, a stick
It is John, it is Joe
It's a thorn in your hand
And a cut in your toe

A point, a grain
A bee, a bite
A blink, a buzzard
A sudden stroke of night

A pin, a needle
A sting, a pain
A snail, a riddle
A wasp, a stain

A pass in the mountains
A horse and a mule
In the distance the shelves
Rode three shadows of blue

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the promise of life
In your heart, in your heart

A stick, a stone
The end of the road
The rest of a stump
A lonesome road

A sliver of glass
A life, the sun
A knife, a death
The end of the run

And the riverbank talks
Of the waters of March
It's the end of all strain
It's the joy in your heart[/quote]


Reminds me of brilliant diamonds cascading down a beautiful waterfall. One can almost close his/her eyes and meditate on that song. Many things spoken of which people do not always take notice of or think of. It really is a beautiful song. Gives me the shivers.

Beautiful!
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: Best song ever written

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:58 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Sculptor

My particular favourite is this one because of the unadorned beautiful simplicity of her voice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzVNJGt0V5U


That video was not showing .
Beautiful!


That is a shame
Luciana Souza
Has the perfect voice.
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