## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

For those of us who are not artists, imagine trying to narrow the gap between viewing art and creating it. Is it even possible?

Or are there just too many variables involved [technical and otherwise] to create a narrative that is both lucid and comprehensive?

Some look at particular works of art, figure a kid could do it, and scoff at the idea that it is even art at all. And what of those who haul a urinal into a museum and exhibit that as art?

Are there creations that truly are art? Then this: Are there ways in which to decide if any particular creation is among the "great works" of art?

Imagine then trying to get into the mind of an artist who goes about the business of creating a work of art. Why choose this and not that?

Here we have the story [a more or less true story] of the American critic [and art-lover] James Lord choosing to pose for a portrait. A portrait painted by the artist Alberto Giacometti. Then the exchange between them. The parts in particular that revolve around "the beauty, frustration, profundity and sometimes chaos of the artistic process".

And, after all, in this world what must one possess in order to be described as an "artistic genius"? Is this actually something that can be understood? And then explained to those of us who look at art...but not much more beyond?

Giacometti's life is portrayed exactly as you would imagine the life of the artist. And, so, any up and coming artists today now know how to model their own life. So, is this but one more rendition of art imitating life imitating art imitating life.

Bottom line [mine]: I still don't get it. That gap between what the artists think that they are after in their work and what I imagine that actually means to them. I lack the technical skills to judge, but I suspect it goes beyond that: an artistic "sensibility" I was simply never able to acquire.

In other words, when they talk about their art it all still goes over my head.

The closest someone like me can get to it are those moments when I'm grappling to find just the right words to express what I think I mean about what I think I feel about something.

IMDb

Alberto Giacometti was born in Borgonovo, now part of the Switzerland municipality of Bregaglia, near the Italian border. He was a descendant of Protestant refugees escaping the inquisition. His brothers Diego and Bruno would go on to become artists as well. "Pointing Man" sold for $126 million,$141.3 million with fees, in Christie's May 11, 2015 Looking Forward to the Past sale in New York, a record for a sculpture at auction. The work had been in the same private collection for 45 years.

The filmmakers meticulously recreated Giacometti's studio, using archive photos and footage. The Giacometti Foundation in Paris assisted the production, on the condition that any artworks created for the film would be destroyed after production was completed.

According to the website of the art auction house Christie's, the portrait of James Lord sold in November 2015 for $20,885,000. Painted in 1964, it was 45 ¾ x 31 ¾ in. The painting was called "James Lord." Christie's writes: "The result of this intense exchange between Giacometti and James Lord, the artist and his sitter, is a superb head whose eyes flash the penetrating gaze of a Byzantine icon, a seated figure that displays the assertive presence of an Egyptian pharaoh, and a lambent corona of silvery grey paint that projects the aura of a Christ en gloire, en majesté. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Portrait trailer: https://youtu.be/sRsiW5c29Sk Final Portrait [2017] Written and directed by Stanley Tucci James [voiceover]: In 1964, I was a young writer living in Paris. I had written a few articles about Alberto Giacometti, who was one of the most accomplished and respected artists of his generation. I had become good friends with Giacometti and his brother, Diego. And one day, after an exhibition, he asked me to sit for a portrait. He told me it would take no longer than two to three hours. An afternoon at the most. ... Annette [Alberto's wife]: Okay. I'm going to Le Dome. Would you like to join me? James: I would, but we're about to start... Annette: Ah, yes, you're my husband's next victim. ... Alberto: You have the head of a brute. James: Gee, thanks. Alberto: Yeah. You look like a real thug. James: Thank you. Alberto: If I was to paint you as I see you now and a policeman was to see this painting, you'd be thrown in jail, like that. James: Perhaps we shouldn't continue. Alberto: No, no, no. It's all right. Because I'll never be able to paint you as I see you. James: Are you sure? Alberto: Yes, of course. It's impossible. ... Alberto: Just so you know, it is also impossible to ever finish a portrait. James: What do you mean? Alberto: Well, portraits used to be finished. They had to be. They were necessary. It was a substitute for a photograph. Now, portraits have no meaning. James: So, what we're doing is meaningless? Alberto: Mm. And impossible. And I'm not even doing it. I can only ever try to do it. So on that note, shall we stop for the day? ... James [voiceover]: Each night, after working with me, Giacometti would work with Caroline, a prostitute with whom he'd been openly carrying on a relationship for three years. Are you done? She'd become his primary model, his nighttime companion...and his obsession. ... James: Have you always been like this? Alberto: Like what? James: So doubtful of your own ability. Alberto: Of course. It gets worse every year. James: But you become more successful every year. Alberto: What better breeding ground for doubt than success? ... Alberto: It's what I deserve, I suppose, after 35 years of dishonesty. That's what I am. I'm dishonest. I'm a... I'm a liar. James: Dishonesty? How do you mean? Alberto: All these years that I've been showing things. They were all... they were all unfinished. Probably shouldn't have been started in the first place. Then again, if I hadn't shown them, I would have felt like a coward, so...Ugh! I don't know. I'm neurotic. James: Well, I understand that. I had a friend who was so neurotic, he ended up committing suicide. Alberto: I'm sorry. James: Hmm. Do you ever think about it? Alberto: Suicide? Mm. Every day. Of course. It's not like I feel life is bad. It's just that I...I think death must be the most fascinating experience, you know? I'm just...I'm just curious. ... Alberto [to James]: I hid it in the toilet. Not in. Up. ... James: How did it go? Diego [Alberto's brother]: He made out like a capitalist. ... James: So, what did you give them? Diego: Drawings that were like hundreds of others he's done. James: And they were happy? Diego: Happy? Of course they were. They know those are what sells. Those are "Giacomettis"! ... Alberto [examining James's face]: Front on, you look like a brute. Side on, you look like a degenerate....One way you go to jail. The other, you go straight to the asylum. I'll probably meet you in there. ... Annette: How do you like posing? James: I like it. I do. But it's, you know, it can be exhausting. He makes me nervous sometimes. The way he yells at the canvas when things aren't going well. But what's really disturbing is just how the portrait itself seems to come and go as if Alberto has no control over it whatsoever. Then other times, it just disappears entirely. I feel like this could go on for months. Annette: Sometimes it does. James: There's nothing anyone can do about it? Annette: No. James: Even Alberto? Annette: Especially Alberto. This is the part that goes far over my head. Alberto [more to himself than to James]: Yeah, the nose is in place now. That's some progress. ... Alberto: Have you ever wanted to be a tree? James: Um, no. ... James [voiceover]: I was glad when that day's session was over. Giacometti was miserable and his mood was pervasive. I was to find out that evening that Caroline had gone missing. ... Diego [of the missing Caroline]: He's too attached to her. He goes crazy without her. He makes himself go crazy. James: Yeah, why? Diego: My brother can only be happy when he is desperate and uncomfortable in every part of his life. James: Well, he should be very happy, then. But it's like he's determined to remain completely unsatisfied. Diego: No, not completely, just perfectly. ... Alberto: Have you ever killed anyone? James: No. Why do you ask? Alberto: I think you're the sort of person who's capable of doing anything, and I mean that as a compliment. James: Thank you. What about you? Have you ever killed anyone? Alberto: Mm. In my mind, I've killed many people. James: Who are these poor souls? Alberto: Just people. Women. Before I could go to sleep, when I was young, every night I'd fantasize about killing two women. After I raped them. James: Oh. And... and this helped you fall asleep? Alberto: Yes. It comforted me. ... Alberto: Cezanne was right. James: About what? Alberto: Squaring everything. Everything is a cone or a cylinder or a sphere...Cezanne was the last great painter. It was just too bad the Cubists took him so literally. James: The Cubists produced very pretty things. Alberto: Oh, who needs pretty? Then they realized they'd reached a dead end and gave up. Picasso and Braque were the really guilty ones. James: Yes, but Picasso moved on. Alberto: Oh, yes, so that he could copy every great artist that ever lived. James: I know, but every artist copies. Alberto: Yes, but you do it as an exercise. It's just an exercise. James: Oh, Alberto. I think you're being a bit harsh. Alberto: No, it's true. I'm telling you, I promise you. Picasso could be so pompous. "I was unable to reach the top of the scale of values, so I smashed the scale." Oh, that's bullshit. James: He really said that? Alberto: Of course he did. Who else would say it? Picasso's always making statements like that, you know. At first they sound like they're so full of wit, but they're full of shit. They have absolutely no meaning. This is the part where I get stuck. James [voiceover]: I decided to take up swimming as a way to relieve not only the physical strain of posing but what was slowly becoming a psychological strain as well. One morning after my swim, I was invited to see the ceiling of the opera house that Chagall had just painted. The magnificence of the work left me feeling lighter than I'd felt in days. Then, I went to sit for Giacometti... Alberto [in the studio at the canvas]]: Oh, fuck! Oh, fuck! Look at this. It's hopeless. The head is all lopsided. It's a mess! ... Alberto [muttering aloud more to himself]: Chagall. Opera. Fucking house painting. You can't compare that to what I'm trying to do here. ... James [after 12 days of posing]: Oh, my God. Diego: What? James: How much longer can it go on like this? Diego: It could go on forever. James: He says a portrait can never be finished. ... James: Well, at any rate, I can't keep doing this. It seems like we pose for hours and hours and nothing happens. Annette: That's the reason why I don't pose anymore. James: Why? Annette: Because your whole life can be swallowed up. ... Alberto [staring at the canvas]: It's gone too far. At the same time, not far enough. I'll never find a way out of this. James: Well, we could always just stop. Alberto: No, we can't stop...I have to stop. ... James [looking at the canvas]: Wow. It looks really good. What'd you do? Alberto: I have no idea. ... James: I wish that I could see things the way you do. Alberto: That's all I'm trying to do. I just want to show how things appear to me. But I'm unable to do that. James: No, that's not true. Alberto: When I was young, I thought I could do everything. When I grew up, I realized I could do nothing. That's what kept me going. Four more sittings. How does that sound? James: Thank you. Alberto: You don't have to do that. We've worked on it together. I don't know. James: That's...I guess that's true. I certainly don't feel how Madame Cezanne did. Alberto: What do you mean? James: In the end she said she just felt like an apple. ... James [at the studio which had been ransacked]: Oh, my God. What happened? Did they take anything? Diego: No, no. James: Well, shall we call the police? Alberto: No, no, no. It wasn't thieves. They came for me. Diego: It was Caroline's pimps. It's a warning. ... Pimp: It's going to be the same price. Whether you sleep with her or she just sit in front of you. Alberto: I see. Same price for both. Mm. You don't want to charge me more for one? Pimp: What? Alberto: Which one would you charge me more for? Pimp: For fucking her. We could charge you more for both things. We can take more for both. Alberto: Okay. Okay. I don't mind. Pimp: Okay. So...so we can get a lot more in that case. Another 10 per hour for each. Alberto: Good. ... Alberto [putting a pile of money on the table]: This pile is all retroactive. Pimp: What? Alberto: It's payment for the last six months that I've spent with her. And this pile is in advance for the next six months. Pimp: Ah. Cheers. Alberto: Cheers! ... James [after the pimps leave]: It looks like you made them happy. Alberto: Please. I would have paid ten times that amount. James: What do you mean? Alberto: She's given me so much. ... Alberto: Oh, fuck! James: What are you doing? Alberto: Negative work. I have to do this. Sometimes, you know, to do something, you can only do it by undoing it. James: Yes, but how many times? Alberto: Mm? How many times? Good question. It's not always as easy as you think. James: What isn't? Alberto: The undoing of something. James: I thought the portrait looked really good. Alberto: When? James: Earlier, when we started. Alberto: It can be very tempting to be satisfied with what's easy. That happens a lot when people tell you something's good. There. That's good. You can just imagine what he means by that here. Alberto: What's the matter? James: Nothing. It's just sometimes it feels like there's very little hope. Alberto: Hope? Is that what you want? Hope? James: Well, it'd be nice. Hm. We've been doing this for a while now. Alberto: Yes, but, you know, for me, whenever I feel the most hopeful, that's the time that I give up. And it's precisely this sort of "explanation" that most exasperates those of who are not artists. We're just not sure how much of it is bullshit. Next up: Day 17 James: You know when he uses the big brush with the grey paint and he undoes everything he's already done? Diego: Uh-huh. James: It's normally after that that he grabs a black brush with a fine tip and he starts to construct the head all over again from nothing for the 100th time, right? Diego: Yeah. Basically, yes. James: Then he's onto the highlights with the ochre - and the grey and all. Diego: The grey. Yes. James: And then he finishes with the final touches of white. Then he gets that big brush again...and obliterates everything he's already done. Diego: Right. James: That's when I'm gonna stop him. Diego: What do you mean? James: I mean I'm gonna try to stop him. Diego: Okay. Yeah. You're very brave. That's the plan. It works. James: I don't know how to thank you. It's been an honor to pose for you. Alberto: Are you out of your mind? James: I didn't say I wanted to do it again. ... James: The next day, Giacometti and I went for a walk and said our goodbyes. He told me he would have liked to accompany me to the airport, but he was hesitant to ever get back into a car any time soon. The portrait was shipped to an exhibition in the States and I returned to New York for an extended stay. Giacometti and I wrote often but never saw each other again, as he was to die a short time later. In his last letter, Giacometti told me how much he enjoyed painting my portrait and that he hoped I would come back soon so that we could start...all over... again. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Harry Dean Stanton. Lucky here. Only not lucky enough to live to see the release of this, his final film. That's the way it works though when you're old. You never really know when it's coming. For some, of course, Stanton will always be Travis Henderson. That epic character from Paris, Texas. Here he plays another "character". The "cantankerous but lovable" old man who goes about the business of not being like anyone else. But "old age" may have finally caught up with him. His health might be down for the count and his time might be about up. So he has to figure out a way to deal with it. Something that [sooner or later] most of us will confront. Only Lucky is an atheist. No immortality and salvation on the other side for him. Or none that he is able to believe in. On the other hand, are you ever really too old to find enlightenment? To tie everything together into something analogous to a meaningful life? Apparently the whole point here is learning how to be "realistic" about things you can do nothing about. And death and dying is clearly one of them. I certainly think so. But there will always be films like this around. Films that aim to come up with one thing or another that "the old" can poke around with. Dig deep enough, the refrain goes, and you too can come up with enough "positives" to put all the accumulating shit in perspective. With death though it usually comes down to two things. One, how much you're got to gain if you keep on living and, two, how much you got to lose if you stop. Pain and suffering, for example. Then this: The last time I saw James Darren was in The Guns Of Naverone. We all get fucking old, don't we? IMDb The five yoga exercises Lucky performs at the start of each day are the Five Tibetan Rites of Rejuvenation, although in the film they are not employed in the recommended order. Performed originally by Tibetan Buddhist monks, they are said to enhance health and longevity. As with the character in the movie, Stanton actually served as a cook aboard the USS LST-970, a tank landing ship, during the Battle of Okinawa. Harry Dean Stanton (who played the role of Lucky) did not live long enough to see the official release of the movie in US on 29 September 2017. He died on 15 September 2017 at the age of 91. According to Logan Sparks, the screenwriter and a longtime friend of Harry Dean Stanton's, Stanton knew 'Lucky' would be the last film he made before dying. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_(2017_American_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/2KLLkj84GAo Lucky [2017] Directed by John Carroll Lynch Lucky: You're nothing. Joe: You're nothing. ... Joe [watching Lucky take out a cigarette]: Those things are gonna kill you. Lucky: If they coulda they woulda. ... Lucky [reading aloud from the dictionary]: "Realism, noun. The attitude or practice of accepting a situation as it is and being prepared to deal with it accordingly." Now the other one. "The quality or fact representing a person, thing or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life." ... Lucky [aloud to himself]: I always thought that what we all agreed on was what we were looking at, but that's bullshit, because what I see is not necessarily what you see. Realism. That's it. That's some heavy shit. ... Vincent: What's the good word. Lucky: Realism is a thing. ... Paulie [at bar]: You know, friendship between animals and humans is essential. And special. And friendship is essential to the soul. Lucky: What? Paulie: Friendship is essential to the soul. Lucky: It doesn't exist! Paulie: What, friendship? Lucky [loudly]: The soul! ... Lucky: That's it? I'm not dying? Doctor: Well, when it comes to most things like heart disease or cancer, at your age, if it was gonna kill you it would have. Lucky: So? Doctor: Well, short of shooting you with a silver bullet or stabbing you with a wooden stake, it seems the older you get, the longer you're gonna live. Lucky: So, why did I fall down? ... Doctor: I could do a lot more tests, but I think it's gonna turn out to be exactly what I think it is. Lucky: What's that? Doctor: You're old, and you're getting older. Lucky: That's your diagnosis? Doctor: It's all I got. Lucky: Well, that's bullshit. Doctor: The body is gonna break down at some point. As far as I know, no one has lived forever. ... Doctor [to Lucky]: You know most people don't get to where you are. They get hit by a bus or get leukemia or something. They never get to the moment that you're in right now. We have the ability to witness what you're going through, to clearly examine it and, more importantly, to accept it. ... Paulie: I'm still ungatz. Nothing. But I've got everything. Isn't that something? Lucky: Something for you. And that's the way it is. Something works for you. But your own set of circumstances may well be alien to others. Lucky: Who's this? Howard: Hey, Lucky. This here is my attorney Bobby Lawrence. Lucky: You know why sharks don't eat attorneys? Bobby: Uh... Lucky: Professional courtesy. ... Bobby: You know Lucky you remind me of... Lucky [seemingly out of the blue]: Shut the fuck up! ... Lucky: President Roosevelt is gone, Howard, and you're all alone. We come in alone, and we go out alone. Bobby: That's awfully bleak. Lucky: It's beautiful. "Alone" comes from two words all-one. It's in the dictionary. ... Lucky: He's not missing, Howard, he's there. Wherever the fuck that is. And if he's not there, then he's nowhere. Bobby: Well, I'm sure he's okay. Lucky: Why don't you go fuck yourself. You don't give a shit about him. You're here to suck him dry. You lamprey, leech, vulture. Con him out of his last dime, just so he can leave everything to a turtle. Howard: Tortoise! He's a tortoise!! ... Howard [to everyone in the bar]: President Roosevelt was born in a hole in the desert. At that time, a little creature smaller than my thumb...You all think of a tortoise as something slow. But I think about the burden he has to carry on his back. Yeah, it's for protection. But ultimately, it's the coffin he's going to be buried in and he has to drag that thing around hos entire life? Go ahead and laugh, but he affected me. You know what I'm saying. He affected me. There are some things in this universe ladies and gentlemen, that are bigger than all of us. And a tortoise is one of them! ... Paulie: Go home, Lucky... ... Loretta: You got somewhere to be, sailor? Lucky: No. Do you like game shows? Loretta: Do you smoke grass? ... Lucky: Can I tell you a secret? Loretta: Absolutely. Lucky: You won't tell anyone? [Loretta says nothing] Lucky: I'm scared... ... Lucky: Did you ever think about before you were born? Joe: No, never did. What are you talking about? Lucky: New beginning. Joe: Is that in the crossword today? Lucky: No. I was just thinking about something that happened to me when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I was at my Aunt's house alone....And only once I got this anxiety attack. I panicked and I was scared to death. I started thinking there's nothing out there. It's all black, there's nothing. And I was scared shitless, man. Joe: 13... Lucky: Yeah. Joe: What happened? Lucky: I don't know. My Aunt came back and that was the end of it. ... Lucky [to Bobby]: There's only one thing worse than awkward silence. Small talk. ... Bobby: A couple of years ago, I was heading to my daughter's school to pick her up. And as I'm turning around the corner, you know, there's a garbage truck that...I mean it just barely missed me. There's no more room between my car and that truck than between me and this tie. A half a second -- a half a second made all the difference. [Lucky nods] Bobby: Two minutes later, my daughter hops into the car as if nothing's happened, and, I guess nothing has. But, uh, it really shook me to the core. Yeah, I got hair standing up on my arms just thinking about it. ... Bobby: You know I came home with my daughter that day and I sat down and I made a will. I wrote end-of-life directives, I upped my life insurance. I paid up front for my cremation. So now if something happens to me...When something happens to me my family doesn't have to worry about the bureaucracy of death. They just call one number and my body's gone by the end of the day. And they don't have to worry about anything for the rest of their life. Lucky: Well, this doesn't change anything for you, this scenario. Bobby: Why not? Lucky: You're still dead. ... Fred [to Lucky]: I still think about those people on the islands, hiding away in caves, afraid of us. The Japs said that we were going to rape and kill them all. So, we secured the beach and the locals who survived the goddamn firefight, started to throw their children off the cliffs, and then followed them. I guess they thought suicide was better than facing us. I remember this little girl, couldn't have been more than seven, in rags. I don't know, she saw us coming, I guess, and right out of nowhere, out of a hole or wherever it was, and she had this...God, this beuatiful smile on her face. And it wasn't a facade, it was coming from somewhere inside, from the center of herself. Good lord, in that shithole something like that really stands out. It stopped us in our track. Here we were, all covers with shit, pieces of people everywhere, and I couldn't see a tree left. And she's grinning from ear to ear. So I said to my corpsman, I said, "look at this, we have somebody who's happy to see us. And he said, "she's not happy to see you. She's a Buddhist. She thinks she's gonna be killed, and she's smiling at her fate." When I think about that little girl's beautiful face, and that smile, in the midst of all that horror, somehow she summoned...joy. They don't make a medal for that kind of bravery. What to make of that, right? Elaine: My place, my rules. Lucky: Ownership is a fallacy. Elaine: Why can't you just live by the rules? Lucky: Authority is arbitrary and subjective. ... Elaine: The truth is you lit up at Eve's and they kicked you out. Lucky: It's not about the cigarettes, it's about what I know happened, and what you think happened. Elaine: You broke the rules. You got busted and banned. That's the truth. Paulie: How about if we all agree to disagree. Lucky: No. I know the truth and the truth matters! ... Lucky: The truth of what is for all of us. Paulie: Which is? Lucky [after a pause]: That it's all going to go away. You, you, you, me, this cigarette, everything...into blackness, the void. And nobody is in charge. And you're left with...ungatz. Nothing. That's all there is. Elaine: What do we do with that? Howard: What do we do with that? Lucky [looking around at everyone]: You smile. Sure, that might work for you. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Terrorist attacks are not unlike most experiences. Our reaction to them will revolve largely around our own particular frame of mind. But regarding the overwhelming preponderance of them, at least, we are not "personally involved". In other words, the attack destroys lives, but not ours. And not the lives of those we know and love. But when we do become a part of the story it can take on a whole new dimension. And everyone brings into it their very own unique set of circumstances. Especially when the relationship between those who staged the attack and those in the government investigating it are not all that concerned with keeping you fully informed. Or may well be entangled in it all together. Quan: "Politicians and terrorists, they are just 2 ends of the same snake." You are more or less on your own. Here the attack is launched by a new faction embedded in the decades old political struggle that revolves around Northern Ireland. Of course they don't see it as a terrorist attack. They see it as a revolutionary act in support of a just cause. And while these explosive events are often described as "senseless acts of violence" it is precisely the opposite that is the case. Certain groups of people make sense of the world in one way. And they insist that others see it the same way. If the bombing has anything to do with the IRA at all. As is usual regarding "incidences" like this there is all the stuff unfolding behind the scenes. Can we really believe what does finally end up "on the news"? And then the part where everything is all hopelessly exaggerated "for the movies". The part where "the Chinaman" becomes Rambo. The unbelievable part. But, again, each of us as indivisuals become entangled in it all only from our own unique vantage point. Which we may or may not be able to effectively communicate to others. Here though the victim is Jackie Chan. Which means the plot will go back and forth between the inherent drama involved and the inevitable elements of the "action thriller". And then the part where we learn he has a "long-buried past". And the part where the factions involved here see him clearly as a foreigner. As "the Chinaman". IMDb In February 2016, two reports were made to the London Metropolitan Police about a "terrorist attack" made on the Lambeth bridge, after many local citizens were not told about a controlled stunt explosion made on a double decker bus for this movie. Liam Hennessy (Pierce Brosnan) is based on Northern Irish politicians Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. Adams was actively involved in the Irish Republican movement, although he denies having been a member of the I.R.A. (a claim contested by many). He later became the leader of Sinn Féin, the political branch of the I.R.A., and was heavily involved in establishing a lasting peace accord in Northern Ireland. Hennessy even shows physical resemblance to Adams (short gray hair, full beard, glasses). Adams was never Deputy First Minister for Northern Ireland. That position was filled by Martin McGuinness. In this movie, Hennessey describes a previous nickname, "Butcher of the Bogside" when referring to his terrorist past. Martin McGuinness was known as "Butcher of the Bogside". trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1615160/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foreigner_(2017_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/r_rSAbYyIq0 The Foreigner [2017] Directed by Martin Campbell Man's voice [on phone]: Listen carefully. An action wing of the Authentic IRA has just exploded a bomb at the OBT Bank in Knightsbridge. The code word is "Phoenix". Britain's banks are now targets for the Authentic IRA. The bombings will continue as long as Britain's financial criminal institutions persist in their support of the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland. ... Reporter: A bomb just went off, an OBT Bank in Knightsbridge. A group called the "Authentic IRA" just phoned it in. They're claiming credit. Editor: Who's the Authentic IRA? Reporter: No idea. Never heard of them. Editor: Christ. There goes the Peace Accord right back in the shit. Editor [to the newsroom]: Listen up. A bank has just been bombed in Knightsbridge. A group calling itself the "Authentic IRA" just phoned it in. I want to know who they are, who's behind them. Call the Met, Sinn Fin, monitor the blogs. Is it the IRA, or is it something else? ISIS? Al-Qaeda? ... Liam [Northern Ireland deputy First Minister]: I'll shake the trees as hard as I can, and see what falls. But, Kate, this is crucial. We've managed to keep the lid on this for 19 years now. But there are new upstarts in the ranks pressing for the way things were. I could use something now. And you know what I'm referring to. Kate [cabinet minister]: The Royal Pardons. ... Liam [to the taskforce]: Now, that we're all here, does anyone know who this Authentic IRA is? Are they even part of the IRA? Some new upstarts, or something else entirely? Hmm? They're trying to undermine everything we've achieved over the last 19 years. Well, I won't have it. They don't have the support of the people who said no to the violence. Our mandate's to uphold that choice and maintain the Peace Accord, no matter what. Are we in agreement? Brennan: There's a lot of support for their actions amongst the younger ranks. Liam: Hotheads. Hotheads who don't remember, or know any better. Brennan: You were once one of those hotheads, Liam. Liam: Aye. Long ago, when it was the only way. And what did it give us? More graves than I care to remember. ... Bromley [police commander]: You were born in Guangxi, China. Quan: Yes. I'm Chinese Nung. I work in Saigon after the war. We escaped to Singapore. Then we immigrate here. That murky and mysterious past. Bromley: I assure you, this investigation is our top priority, Mr. Quan. And we're doing all we can and pursuing every possible lead to find those who killed your daughter. But they're a difficult people to catch. And it may take some time. I need you to understand that. Quan: You must catch these men, Commander Bromley. [he takes a bundle of cash out of a bag and places it on the table] Quan: Twenty-thousand pound. All I have for the names of the bombers. Bromley: I'm sorry, but we can't take this. Quan: Then please tell me... Just give me the name of someone in the IRA. ... Quan [on phone]: Please tell me someone who might know the names of the bombers, someone I can talk to. Liam: I don't have any connections to those sorts of people. I'm sorry. Quan: I don't believe you, Mr. Hennessy. You are very powerful man. Liam: Well, I work for the government and our elected officials. I do not work for terrorists. Quan: IRA politics and terrorism are different ends of the same snake. Whichever end you grab, you still grab a snake. Liam: It makes a great deal of difference which end you grab, because one end will bite. ... Liam: I haven't been affiliated with the IRA for 30 years. When I was, I fought hard against the violence. I went to prison for what I did, and paid my debt. Now, I serve the politics of both sides, trying to heal the wounds and bridge the divide. Again, my sincere condolences, but there's nothing I can do. Quan [noting a photograph on the desk]: What if your wife and daughter were killed by bomb? Liam: I'd do everything in my power to get justice. Quan: So, I've chosen you, Mr. Hennessy. You will tell me who killed my child. Liam: Again, I don't know. Quan: You will change your mind. ... Liam [on the phone]: You come to my office and plant a fucking bomb?! Quan: Have you changed your mind? Liam: Changed my mind? Are you out of your fuckin' tree? You have no idea who you're dealing with, but you'll soon find out. Quan: Give me the names. ... Kate [on the phone]: I hear your office was bombed. Liam: Hardly. It was the toilet in the hall. An Asian man in his 60s with a grudge. It's all being taken care of. Kate: Why'd he do it? Liam: His child died in the bank bombing. He thinks I know who did it. Kate: He's not the only one of that mind. ... Hugh: Christ, Liam, so, the committee knows it's my Semtex? Don't know who we can trust anymore. Do we? Liam: Trust, or fear? ... Liam: What're you trying to say? Hugh: The bombing. A few quiet words of encouragement would soothe the ranks. Liam: "Encouragement"? They kill civilians by the buckets. Hugh: They went a bit far, I know, but they have given us real momentum. The Brits are on the ropes. Liam: Jesus Christ, I said hit a few financial targets. That's it. No one gets hurt. That's what we agreed to. You gave me your word. Hugh: And by God, I kept it. I don't know who they are, don't even know who's controlling 'em. And that's the way it has to be. Because if something goes wrong, they could trace 'em straight back to us. Liam: Go wrong? This wasn't the fuckin' plan. I needed this to get our people back. You and I have spent our whole lifetime... Hugh: You don't give a shit about those men! You needed the bombing to shore up the election, to prop up your weakness in the ranks. Well, guess what? In the fog o' war, plans fuckin' change. ... Hugh: You haven't forgotten what we're fighting for, have you? Liam: You question my loyalty? I buried my brother-in-law, before that, my da and my two cousins. We spilt our fair share of blood struggling for united Ireland, not profiting off a divided one. So, don't fucking go asking me again if I've forgotten what we're fighting for. Hugh: If there's anyone profiteering around here, it's you, sitting in your fancy houses, cozying up to the Brits. You're not the Liam I once knew. Liam: You want the old me, huh? The Butcher of the Bogside, is that what you want? Well then, hear this. You reel in those fuckin' cunts and end it, or by God, I'll bury the lot of yas. ... Liam: You killed my dog? Quan: Dog's fine. Just sleeping. ... Quan: The explosives the bombers use, it's Semtex-H? Liam: Yes. Yes. You know about Semtex? Quan: I know Semtex-H. During the war, Czechs make for the Viet Cong. Good for bombs and traps. Liam: In Vietnam? Quan: Yes. Many American people died by Semtex-H. Now, IRA use to kill my daughter. That's ironic. ... Liam: I've read your history. We both know about war. We've both tried to put it behind us. You and me, we're alike. Quan: We are nothing alike! You're nothing! You kill women and children! Names! ... Kate: A bus now. For God's sake, 16 dead, twice that injured. Liam: I'm sorry. I had a plan to nail the bastards. Didn't work. Kate: I've just come from Downing Street. The PM will consider the pardons, but only if you give up the bombers immediately. Liam: And how in God's name do I do that? Kate: Find a way! Plans are afoot to put the paratroops back on your streets in 48 hours. Liam: Belfast will erupt! You'll give the bombers exactly what they want! This is basically a snapshot of just how murky these things can become. Everyone has their own personal agenda. Their own political axe to grind. Liam: A London bus, for Christ sake! Not even fuckin' warnings! Sixteen dead! You stabbed me in the back and sanctioned this bloodbath to get your war back on. Hugh: The plan had no balls. This wasn't a Bombing Light campaign. You said hurt 'em, and hurt 'em, we did. Liam: By killing women and children? You can't restrain yourself. You never could. Well, it's over. Their names, aliases, and location! ... Hugh [to Liam]: You used me. You wanted the pardons for your own political gain. You're a disgrace to the cause! ... Liam: All I wanna know is, what was discussed when your sweet Aunt Mary was with you? Did she say she was involved with McGrath and the bombers? Sean: No. Never. She was upset about her brother and kept on about that. When you and I were talking about the code word, she asked about 'em, but she never let on about McGrath. Liam: Oh, so, she could hear us on the phone? Sean: No, it was only after our call she mentioned the code word. She thought they wouldn't be of use. Liam: So, she steered the conversation? Sean: Well, yes, I guess she did. Liam: A good manipulator, she is. So, she told the bombers? She told McGrath, McGrath told them. Thick as thieves, they were. She tricked the information out of you, Sean. She used you. You can never really know what the true motivation and intention of someone is in situations like this. Joker: She said a gas man turned up with an assault gun, a Chinaman. Started shooting, killed everyone but her, and then walked out the door. Bromley: She said he was a Chinaman? Joker: Affirmative. About 60 years old. ... Kate [on the phone]: The bombers were neutralized, even Sara McKay, whom you called, "Maggie". She gave a reporter the bomb that was to have been put on my flight. She also carried out the bus carnage, and is directly connected to you, and McGrath. We have call-pens going to and from her off the cell towers by your farm and town homes. That's 250 precision locations and activations consistent with your mutual activities. Liam: Katherine... Kate: I've spoken to the PM. He's agreed to keep you in office for now. I'm issuing pardons for five On-the-Runs, one is your cousin. But make no mistake, Deputy First Minister, you are ours now. I say "jump," you say "where?" ... Liam: How did you find me? I gave you the names, like I said. Quan [showing him a cell phone photo of him with "Maggie"]: This woman, she's a bomber. You lie. You plan everything. Liam: For whatever it's worth, I never intended to hurt your daughter. Or any of those people. Quan: Send. Do it! [Liam taps on the screen] Quan: It's now on the Internet, you and your mistress. The whole world will know you are a terrorist. Goodbye, Mr. Hennessy. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Jun-hee: Are you still searching for love? Young-hee: Where's love? It's not even visible. You need to see it in order to search for it. Love again. It comes in all shapes and sizes. But the shape of this one keeps popping up over and over and over again. Young and beautiful, Young-hee falls in love with an older, married man. Really, what narrative could possibly be more played out in the cinema than this one? Yet another rendition of love and lust all tangled up in the shadows. Only this time "art imitates life". The director of the film, Hong Sang-soo, had a "real life" affair with Kim Min-hee, the actress who plays Young-hee in the movie. It's their story turned into a performance for all the world to see. In fact, the affair was rather notorious in Korea. It "stirred up a media frenzy" at the time. Having once had an affair with a married woman myself, I know of the many, many twists and turns you can become entangled in. Each context is one all its own. But there are any number of experiences that almost anyone involved in affairs become familiar with. Then you go back and forth: 1] what would you have done? 2] what ought she have done instead? This is basically a film in which the "action" revolves around a series of conversations between people who seem entirely preoccupied with themselves. The rest of the world is "out there" somewhere, but it never seems to matter. It's always about what they are thinking and feeling. "Society", with all its complex social, political and economic conflicts, never seem to factor in at all. And then this seems to come up quite a lot: "Who knows?" IMDb Art imitates life in this quietly devastating masterpiece from Hong Sang-soo. Kim Min-hee (The Handmaiden, Claire's Camera) in the role that won her the Silver Bear for best actress in Berlin-plays Young-hee, an actress reeling in the aftermath of an affair with a married film director. Young-hee visits Hamburg then returns to Korea, but as she meets with friends and has her fair share to drink, increasingly startling confessions emerge. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Be ... ight_Alone trailer: https://youtu.be/XdXE-MC9qwM On the Beach at Night Alone [Bamui Haebyun-Eoseo Honja] 2017 Written and directed by Sang-soo Hong Young-hee: Should I live with you? Shall we? Friend: Not sure about that. Young-hee: Not sure? Why, don't you want to? Friend: No, it's not that. I'm the kind of person who needs to live alone. Young-hee: For 10 years you were happy with your husband. Friend: Was I? ... Friend: You said someone is coming. Young-hee: I don't know if he will. If he does, he does, if not, fine. I won't wait. Let him come if he does. He knows where I am. Friend: I don't think he'll come. You said he's married. Young-hee: So, he won't come? Friend: No. He's married. Young-hee: It didn't stop your husband. Friend: I'm different. I have no desire. No, that's not true...but it's weak. ... Young-hee: You're an odd person. Friend: Am I? Sure, you have more desire. Young-hee: More than you, I'm sure! ... Friend: Why did you break up? Young-hee: I guess I was hard to deal with. You know how direct I am. Friend: Men have a hard time with that. You are quite direct. ... Young-hee: Honesty is important. Friend: Is it? ... Young-hee: I don't care about men's looks anymore. It's not important. Friend: Really? Young-hee: Good looking men are all vain. Friend: You dated a lot of good looking men. Young-hee: Yeah. I played around a lot. Friend: Good for you. I never played around a lot. When will I get the chance? Young-hee: Do whatever you like. Before you die, do everything. Friend: I don't know. I'm old now. Young-hee: So, don't waste your time. ... Myung-soo: You should get married, have a kid before it is too late. Young-hee: Me? I've got no man. Myung-soo: Oh, really? Young-hee: Yes. Men are all idiots. Myung-soo [laughing]: Really? Idiots? Young-hee: Yes, idiots. ... Young-hee: If I'm going to die, do it graciously. That's the feeling that came over me. Jun-hee: How are the men there? Aren't they better than the men here? Myung-soo: Men are all the same. Young-hee: They have nice bodies. And big down there. Myung-soo. Wait, really? Young-hee: Really big. No comparison. Myung-soo: So...it's really true. Young-hee: They have nice bodies, but inside they're all the same. Men all want the same thing... Jun-hee: But did you really hold back? Young-hee: I didn't hold back. But if I meet men that way, I worry that later I'll end up a strange, man-obsessed woman, like a monster. Die graciously! ... Jun-hee: Are you still searching for love? Young-hee: Where's love? It's not even visible. You need to see it in order to search for it...I don't want to think about worthless things. I can just die anytime. I'd just like to fade away graciously... ... Myung-soo: But isn't it better to live? That's why everyone keeps living. It's not according to what you think, but just a will to live. Young-hee [laughing]: Don't pretend to be wise. Always floundering in thoughts. Myung-soo: What, me? Young-hee: You can't love, so you cling to life, right? Because you can't love, you take that at least. Yeah, I'm thinking, pretty much. Young-hee [more fiercely]: You're not capable of love, or don't deserve to be loved. But we all sing of love, Have you ever really seen a person qualified to love? Friend: You need a qualification? Can't we just love? Why get hung up on qualifications? So people with nothing, they aren't allowed to love? Young-hee [snorting]: If you don't know anything, keep your mouth shut. Myung-soo: Young-hee's drunk. Friend: Keep my mouth shut? You shouldn't speak that way. Young-hee: Keep your mouth shut! None of you are qualified!! Everyone's cowardly, satisfied with fake things, and engaging in dirty acts. You're all happy living that way. You're not qualified to love! Well, I know that I'm not. Jun-hee: I'm not qualified to love, but I will. Young-hee: Oh, no, you can love. Let's get rid of all men, and love each other...I want to kiss you. Cue Young-hee's dream. Young-hee: I'll have to take anything later. If no scripts come. Sang-won: Why wouldn't you receive scripts? Young-hee: I think you know the reason. I'm a bomb, a bomb! Sang-won: What do you mean, a bomb? Young-hee: I've got a destructive side. Sang-won: No, you don't. Young-hee: I'm destructive!! I harass people and destroy everything! Sang-won: It seems she's having a tough day today. Young-hee: No, I'm like this every day. Thank you, Director. Sang-won: Why all of a sudden? Young-hee: Just for everything. You loved me so much! So I'm thankful. Sang-won: It was because you were so pretty. Young-hee: I'm pretty? I'm really pretty? Am I prettier than Mari here? The script girl is also pretty. Why so many pretty women around you? ... Young-hee: Why do you make these films?! Why make it about someone you loved? Trying to lessen your torment? Sang-won: My torment? [long pause] Sang-won: Perhaps. Young-hee: Are you tomented?! Sang-won: Yes, a bit. I haven't been normal since then. Young-hee: No? You seem normal. Even shooting films. Sang-won [angrily]: I make films but I'm not normal! I've been turning into a monster...so I'm trying to cast that off. I need to cast off my regrets. Young-hee: You regret it? Do you really regret it? Sang-won: Yes, I regret it. I constantly regret it. Every day, so much it makes me sick. Young-hee: Don't regret it. Regretting it changes nothing. Sang-won: What if I can't stop regretting? This pain, this constant regret. You think I want this? Still...with time it turns sweet, so I don't want to go back. I just want to die with my regret. I can't breathe... [he breaks down in tears] ... Sang-won [reading from a book]: "When you love, you must, in your reasoning about that love, start from what is highest, from what is more important than happiness or unhappiness, or that sin or virtue in their accepted meaning, otherwise you must not reason at all." He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film To obey or to disobey, that is the question. Human faith and human sexuality. Every religious denomination has its own unique catechism here. Lines are drawn between vice and virtue. Then the obeyers and disobeyers. Those things you can do and those things you cannot. But it always depends on the particular religious community that you belong to. Not only in terms of what is deemed to be good and what is deemed to be bad, but also in terms of how stringent the church hierarchy is in enforcing transgressions. Here it is an Orthodox Jewish community and, among other things, there are strictures revolving around homosexuality. The parts that are discussed here: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... tq-issues/ Ronit had once been shunned by her community for having a sexual attraction to Esti, her childhood friend. Now, years later, with the death of her father, she is back in the community. The attraction is reignited. And that means grappling anew with all the ambiguities embedded in that age old tug of war between human sexuality and religious faith. So, there's the part that involves all the reactions from others in the community on this side of the grave and, ultimately, what one imagines the reaction of God will be on the other side of it. It would seem clear that throughtout human history there has always been a combustible relationship between sex and God. And, the more conservative the community, the more combustible that was likely to be. Sex brings us closer to the part where human beings are really just one more species of animal on the planet. And fucking is always going to have that beastly element embedded in it. How then to reconcile that with the Lord? A God that is said to "see all". With God and religion, the struggle and the anguish does not revolve as much around what is good and what is bad, as it does around whether to or not to obey what you have been told [since childhood] is the right thing and the wrong thing to do. The part about consequences on this side of the grave...and then consequences on the other side. So, how realistic is all of this? How realistic is the ending? Well, not being a member of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish community myself, I don't have a clue. For me the choices that we make are derived from an entirely different set of assumptions. Still, if there does exist an actual God of the Jews, what does He think about it? May you live a long [obedient] life. IMDb Rachel Weisz said, [about costar Rachel McAdams] "We really had each other's backs and that's a form of love, I guess. I couldn't have done this with anyone else." Director Sebastián Lelio on how he remembers his first encounters with Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams: "The first day with both was a milestone. I was nervous because, deep down, I did not know if there was going to be chemistry between them. I was at the end of a restaurant talking to Rachel McAdams and from afar I see Rachel Weisz walking. She sits down and they start talking. Immediately I realized that there was going to be tremendous electricity between them. The fact that they were so different was going to work perfect for the game of attraction and magnetism that the movie demanded. From my perspective, seeing them both was a sort of epiphany. I saw there was a movie, it was going to be vibrant and urgent. I realized that it was going to be tremendously powerful to watch the acting duel between them." Director Sebastián Lelio on how different Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams are: "The first sensation I had when working with Rachel Weisz was that I was facing a force of nature, someone of volcanic personality. On the other hand, Rachel McAdams is very meticulous. She studies a lot and is something like an expert in disguise, hiding behind the wig and makeup. It seems to me that, in the end, [McAdams] handled all the complexities of her character with an unique elegance. They are very different and fit right into the characters, who are complementary and counterparts at the same time." trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6108178/tr ... =ttqu_sa_1 at wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disobedience_(2017_film) trailer https://youtu.be/HEVonh8bjC0 Disobedience 2017 Written in part and directed by Sebastián Lelio Rav Krushka: In the beginning, Hashem made three types of creatures, the angels, the beasts, and the human beings. The angels, He made from His pure word. The angels have no will to do evil. They cannot deviate for one moment from His purpose. The beasts have only their instincts to guide them. They, too, follow the commands of their maker. The Torah states that Hashem spent almost six whole days of creation fashioning these creatures. Then, just before sunset, He took a small quantity of earth and from it He fashioned man and woman. An afterthought? Or His crowning achievement? So, what is this thing? Man? Woman? It is a being with the power to disobey. Alone among all the creatures we have free will. We hang suspended between the clarity of the angels and the desires of the beasts. Hashem gave us choice, which is both a privilege and a burden. We must then choose the tangled life we live. Literally some insist. Not so much insist others. Dovid: So you came to...to mourn the Rav. Ronit: Why else would I be here? ... Ronit: So who is Mrs. Dovid Kuperman, Esti? Do we approve? ... Ronit: You're married. Dovid: Yes. Yes we are, Ronit. Ronit: Nobody told me. Why didn't you let me know? Esti: You disappeared. ... Ronit: My father just died. Dovid: I know. I know, I was there. Ronit: Well, at least you let me know he was dead. Dovid: It's important that this week is conducted with honor. Ronit: Honor? Dovid: It's the most important thing. Ronit: Of course it is. ... Fruma: And you're not married. You must find someone, Ronit. It's not funny growing old alone. Ronit: Oh, well I'm rarely alone. I've got wonderful friends. Fruma: I expect you have lots of fun. But that will pass. But being married, well, that's the way it should be. Ronit: Oh, is it? The way it should be? Or is it just institutional obligation? Uncle Hartog: Now, Ronit, stop right there. Ronit: I mean, Uncle, let's just say I stayed here for one more year. Let's think about this, okay, right? I would be married off to whoever and then, after ten years in some loveless marriage I might have ended up killing myself. Or I would've felt like killing myself. ... Ronit: I'm not gonna go to the Hesped. Esti: What? Ronit: There's no point in my being here. I'm gonna change my ticket. Esti: But... ... Ronit [to Esti but more to herself]: So, all my father did all day, was stay in here and read the Torah and the commentaries on the Torah and the notes on the commentaries - and the debates on the notes. ... Esti [after they kiss]: It was me who rang the shul in New York to let you know. Ronit: I'm just gonna get some air. ... Ronit: Why did you get married, Esti? Why didn't you just leave? Esti: Do you remember what the Rav used to say about marriage? Ronit: No. Esti: You do. "Will you grow old alone?" "Will you grow old with no family, no joys?" "Dovid is a good boy. He...he has a generous heart, and he's crazy about you. Marry him." ... Esti: The Rav was afraid for me, and if I had to sleep with a man, why not with our best friend? Ronit: Oh, Esti... Esti: I think, I think he felt that marriage would cure me. It hasn't been a complete disaster. Ronit: And that's enough? Do you have to have sex every Friday? Esti: It's expected. Ronit: It's medieval. Esti: It's not mandatory. Nobody gets beaten if they don't feel like it. ... Ronit: What happened to you? Esti: Nothing. You happened to me. And then I started teaching and that became important. Ronit: You can teach anywhere. Esti: I really love the girls. And I give them ambition. Ronit: To do what? Push out seven babies and be a good wife? Esti: Don't. Don't. I'm a good teacher. And I help them to value themselves. Ronit: Okay, but what about you? Esti: That is me. ... Ronit: Esti? What's happened? Are you all right? Esti [walking hurriedly down the street]: Not here. ... Esti: Yesterday, I behaved like an adolescent. So stupid and so senseless. Ronit: Did someone say something? Esti: Yes! Yes! And I live here. Ronit: Tell me, what did they say? Esti: The headmistress, she...It doesn't matter. I...we need to stop this. Ronit: Okay. Okay. Okay. Esti: I can't do this. I can't. Ronit: Okay. ... Esti: We try here. We try to lead a good life. Ronit: I know. I know. Esti: And I do believe profoundly. The word of Hashem is my life. ... Esti [to Ronit after they have had sex]: I used to think about your life in New York. Mmm. I tried to imagine your room. I kept track of the time difference. So I knew when you were awake and when you were asleep. ... Ronit: What? Esti: I was just thinking of the Rav walking in on us. Ronit: Oh, don't. Esti: His face. What did he say? "Hashem, strike me dead!" ... Dovid: Mrs. Shapiro made a formal complaint about you and Ronit. Esti: What? She came to you? Dovid: Yes. Tell me the truth. Esti: I, uh... I kissed Ronit. Dovid: You kissed her? Esti: I'm sorry. Dovid [angrily, grabbing her]: Esti! What are you doing to us? Esti: I've tried! -I have! Dovid: What do you want? You want to be hurt again? Has Ronit asked you to go back with her? Esti: Oh, Dovid! Dovid: She'll go back to her friends. Her men. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? I mean, what is it? Just tell me. Esti: Can I? Can I? Dovid: Yes. We've always been honest with each other. Esti: Have we? Dovid: We have. Yes. Esti: Have we? I got the message to Ronit about her father. I wanted her to come back. Dovid: No. Esti: Yes. Yes, I did. Dovid: No, you didn't. She's taking advantage of you. Esti: Look at me. Dovid [shouting]]: You can't even see it, you're blind! Esti [fiercely]: No, no one's taking advantage. Dovit: You're blind! Esti: No! Look at me! I wanted it to happen. And when we were girls...even then, it was the same. It's always been this way! ... Ronit: I think you should leave him. Esti: Really? And where would I go? ... Ronit: I booked a flight. I'll be leaving tonight. Esti [startled]: What? Dovid: Oh. That's good. That's good. Ronit: I hope the Hesped goes well. Dovid: Now it will. ... Dovid: What about you? What will you be doing? Esti: Uh, I don't know. Dovid: Try. Try to explain it to me. Esti: I can't. ... Esti: It's easier to leave, isn't it? Ronit [after a pause]: No, it isn't. ... Ronit [on the phone]: Hello? Dovid? No. No, she's not with me. When did you last see her? Well, she'll be back, Dovid, don't worry. ... Dovid: I wish she'd never contacted you. Ronit: Well, I'm glad that she did the right thing. My father died. You weren't even going to let me know. Dovid: Can you see why I didn't? I was protecting my wife. Dovid... [Esti walks toward them] Esti: I want you to give me my freedom. Dovid: Esti, come here. I was terrified. Esti: I'm sorry. I didn't mean for you to worry. I'm pregnant. Dovid: A child. Hashem is looking over us. Esti: I don't think we should be together anymore. Dovid: It's His wish. Esti: No. I was born into this community. I had no choice. I want my child to be free to decide. Dovid: We've waited so long for this. Esti: Please give me my freedom. Dovid: No, no, no... Ronit: Dovid, you can't... Dovid [sharply]: Stay out of it! Ronit: I'm sorry. I can't. ... Ronit [to Esti at the Hesped]: Why don't you come to New York? Why don't you just come to New York and be with me? ... Dovid [at the Hesped]: Rav Krushka often spoke about the duty of the teacher. The duty...I'm sorry, I can't...The Rav's only child, Ronit Krushka, is here with us today. The Rav's final words to us...Why did he choose to discuss the idea of choice? And freedom. There's nothing so tender or truthful as the true feeling of being free. Hmm? Free to choose. The Rav was a giant of Torah. But it wasn't a giant we saw collapse that day. It was a man. He talked of the angels and of the desires of the beasts. And with his final words, he reminded us of this. We are free to choose! [he looks up at Esti] Dovid: You are free. [and then to all of the others] Dovid: I cannot accept the honor or position that is offered to me. I do not have sufficient understanding. Please forgive me. ... Ronit: You will be a brilliant mother. You're going to be brave and beautiful. I love you. I love you. Will you tell me where you are? Esti: Yes. I will. ... Ronit [to the cabdriver]: Excuse me? Do you mind if we make a small detour? He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film It can get tricky when you have kids. For example, there is how you want to raise them and there is how "society" or "the state" interjects from time to time with its laws. What are you permitted to do as a parent? What are you not permitted to do as a parent? What are you required to do as a parent? So: Is it reasonable [or moral] to yank a child out of society and live "off the grid"? To be isolated from the rest of the world? Is that a "healthy" life for a teenager? And what if the parent suffers from PTSD? How far is this parent permitted to go in order to escape what he [and many others] construe to be our postmodern, rat race hell hole. How far back to nature is enough? Is there still room at all for idealism in a world that is becoming increasingly more cynical about what constitutes the "good life". Bottom line: If you and your child see the life that you have chosen as "idyllic", is that as far as it need go? And it's not that the daughter is unaware of how the rest of us live. She takes trips into Portland with her father. It's that she simply prefers the life she lives with her father. But then the part where one "tiny mistake" brings the whole thing crashing down. Everything changes and their thoughts and their feelings and their behaviors must reconfigure in order to deal with it. For most of us, it is not possible to sustain a relationship that revolves entirely around the two of you. There are just too many others around who need to be taken into account. And too many possibilities for "contingency, chance and change" to push and to pull you in different directions. How good is this film? Well, if the critics have anything to say about it, very, very good. It got a 100% Fresh rating at RT, on 195 reviews: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/leave_no_trace/ IMDb Once Ben Foster had signed onto the film, he and Debra Granik worked together to remove around 40% of the dialogue. This was to make the film have less exposition and feel more realistic. In preparation for the film Ben Foster got training from a professional which included gaining wilderness appreciation, survival techniques, learning the basic fundamentals of water catchment and gray man technique which is how to disappear in public, or more importantly, how to disappear in plain sight. According to Ben Foster, the film is as much about saying goodbye to your child or to a parent, how you do that lovingly and how you let someone go. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3892172/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leave_No_Trace_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/_07ktacEGo8 Leave No Trace [2018] Written in part and directed by Debra Granik Tom [daughter, short for Thomasin]: Dad, this wood is really good for feathering. Will [father]: It's really nice work. ... Tom [watching her father trying fruitlessly to start a fire]: Dad, it's been really damp....Dad. It's okay. We can use the propane. Will: Don't waste it. We're low. Tom: I'm hungry. ... Tom [after her father hears a chain saw revving in the distance]: It's okay. It's a work crew. I saw them earlier. They're down by the pathways. Will: Drill! ... Man living in woods: "If you are a veteran who takes benzyls for PTSD, here is what you need to know." You sell them to me. Xannies. Prazosin. When was the last time that stopped a nightmare? They're all pretty much useless anyway. I haven't taken them in two years, seven months, and 28 days. Can you play your doctor any harder? Will: I don't want to get flagged. Man: At first they're handing them out like candy. Then they pull the leash on us. Well... Anything you get, bring it to me, I'll take it off your hands. This is how he gains access to cash. Will [to Tom after hearing a barking dog and men approaching]: This is not a drill. ... Police: Stand up. Hands on the back of your head. Don't move. Anything on you that's gonna hurt me? Will: Just the knives. Police: You alone out here? Will: My daughter is with me. Tom, come out. Tom, come out! ... Jean: Can you tell me where you live? In the park? Just walk down here to me. Okay? Tom: I want to go with my dad. Please. I want to go with my dad. Jean: I know you do. Tom: Please. I want to go with my dad! Jean: And you may be able to go with your dad. But right now we need to ask you some questions. ... Jean: I want you to tell me a little bit about your dad. Does he drink or take pills or anything that makes him act strange? Does he have weapons here? Anything that might hurt somebody? Tom: No. Jean: Does he hide things? Tom: This is where we keep our tools and important papers. ... Girl: So, what are you doing here? Tom: I wasn't where I was supposed to be, so they took me away. Well, they don't think I was where I was supposed to be. Girl: Okay. Where were you? Tom: With my dad in the park. Girl: So you're homeless then? Tom: No. Girl: Why else would you be living in the woods? If you had a home, they wouldn't have brought you here. Tom: They just don't understand that it was my home. ... Tiffany: Where is your dad now? Tom: I think he's somewhere in this building. He's gonna come get me. Girl: Tiffany, know anyone whose parents come for them? Tiffany: No. Girl: Me neither. ... Jean: We don't have any record of you going to school. Who taught you how to read? Tom: My dad teaches me. Jean: You're actually quite a bit ahead of where you need to be, but school is about social skills too, not just intellectual ones. Tom: Can I see my dad now? ... Psychologist: Respond true-false to each question. It's voice-activated, so you just say it right into the microphone. There's 435 questions. If you can't answer something you got three seconds, it'll beep and move on to the next statement. Female computerized voice: Welcome. The test will begin in three seconds. I wake up rested and peaceful most mornings. Will: True. Voice: I enjoy reading articles on crime. Will: False. Voice: My day-to-day life is full of things that keep me interested. Will: True. Voice: I have nightmares or troubling dreams. the machine beeps Voice: I think about things that are too bad to talk about. the machine beeps Voice: Things aren't turning out like the prophets said they would. the machine beeps Voice: It seems like no one understands me. Will: False. Of course these are the sort of questions that if you're smart enough you answer them in the way in which you think the authorities would want you to. Will stumbles here. He's got this thing about being truthful. Jean: Do you feel safe living with your dad? Tom: Yes. Jean: I saw that the two of you share a tent. This ever made you feel uncomfortable? Tom: No. - It's warmer with two people at night. Jean: Has anybody ever touched your body without your permission? Tom: No. ... Tom: We didn't need to be rescued. Jean: Your dad needs to provide you shelter and a place to live. Tom: He did. He does. ... Official: In finding placement for you and Tom, we've considered what kind of support will be most helpful for the both of you. Will: We'd like to go back to the way we were living. Official: We have found an option. It's not the park. Um, it's kind of a special accommodation. It's pretty isolated. There would be no rules or regulations saying you can't live here because someone is saying you can. ... Tom [after they have been "relocated"]: Everything's different now. Will: We can still think our own thoughts. ... Will: They said a person saw you, and that's how they found our camp. Tom: I saw a person, but I didn't think they saw me. It was a mistake. Will: Why didn't you say something? Tom: I was afraid. I didn't want to leave our camp. It was such a good one. Will: Yeah. But we stayed there too long. ... Tom: Dad. God created frogs. Will: Says who? Tom: This pamphlet. "Considering membership? There are many ways to participate... music, devotional dance, carpentry, camp prayer group, rock and roll, social media." Is that why we went? Will: We went because Walters asked us to. You dress up, show up on Sunday, people will believe certain things about you. Tom: Then they don't ask so many questions about our lives? Our lives before. ... Tom: If we had a phone, I could have called you. Will: Always been able to communicate without all that. Tom: I think it might be easier on us if we try to adapt. Will: We're wearing their clothes. We're in their house. We're eating their food. We're doing their work. We have adapted. The only place we can't be seen is in this house. Tom: We can still think our own thoughts. Like you said. ... Tom: What if the kids at school think I'm strange 'cause of the way we were living? Will: How important are their judgments? Tom: Guess I'll find out. ... Jean: I wanted to drop off some paperwork for you. Um, here is the date for your appointment with housing. And I thought you could use a phone. [Will shakes his head] Jean: It's important for you to follow through so you guys can remain independent. Do you understand? No irony intended. Will [to Tom]: Pack your things. Don't take anything you don't need. ... Tom [after they are back in the forest]: I liked it there. Did you even try? Will: I did. Tom: Huh? Dad, did you? 'Cause I can't tell. Will: They were gonna separate us if we didn't follow their rules. Tom: Won't they notice we're gone? Will: If we're lucky, not till tomorrow. ... Man [living in the park]: What are you doing here? Did you bring them with you? Since you two got burned, rangers are here all the time. [a bulldozer destroys the camp] Man: Stop! ... Tom [to Will after they had hopped a train]: Why are we doing this? Dad, we shouldn't be here. ... Will: What did that woman on the bus ask you? Tom: Nothing. She barely even noticed me. She was doing her own thing. [Will says nothing] Tom: Dad, this isn't the way we used to be. Will: Have some. Tom: You hearing me? Will: Drink it. ... Tom: It's cold. Will: We're at a higher altitude. Tom: My fingers are stiff. You said there'd be some cabins. I really thought there would be. ... Tom: Dad, are we gonna freeze in our sleep? Will: No, Tom. Tom: How do you know? ... Tom: Do you miss the things we had at the farm? Will: Do you? They were really never our things. ... Dale [after Will injures himself in the forest]: Blane was a medic in the army, so he's in good hands. Was your dad in the service? Tom: He was. Dale: What happened out there? Tom: We got lost. Dale: Where were you guys headed? Tom: I don't think we knew where we were going. Dale: Where do you live? Where's your home? Tom: With my dad. ... Dale: Tom, if your dad is messed up with something or running from someone, I really need you to tell me, 'cause folks around here aren't looking to get mixed up in any trouble. Tom: It's not that kind of trouble. ... Tom: Have you ever seen inside a hive before? It's cool, huh? You put your hand over it. You can feel the warmth of the hive. A person can withstand 500 stings. Close your eyes. Open. [bees are crawling all over her hands] Tom: See, you don't need to be scared. ... Tom: I want to tell you something. Will: Please do. Tom: I paid for this place, so we can stay here. Will: Yeah, that was the right thing to do. Tom [realizing he doesn't understand]: I rented this place so that we can live here. [Tom doesn't respond] ... Tom [seeing Will with his backpack]: What are you doing? Dad, your...your leg isn't even healed all the way. And it won't. It won't heal right. I don't want to leave. Last time you almost died. And you would have if I hadn't found you. Will: That will never happen again. Tom: These people, they're not that different from us. Will: Yes, they've been very good to us, but we have to... Tom: You! You need. Not me. The same thing that's wrong with you isn't wrong with me. Will: I know. ... Tom [once again back in the forest alone with Will]: Dad... [a long pause] Tom: I know you would stay if you could. ... Tom [to the dog that was with them in the RV camp]: He had to go... He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film A few years ago some might have gone to see this movie as a way of tumbling back into the past. About 50 years. A reminder of just how volatile the subject of race can be in America. Only nowadays this film might actually be a warning of what might be America's future. And not some distant future either. The racists -- the really flagrant racists -- are clearly on the rise again. And not just in the heartland. Trump and the Republicans are using race again to sow the sort of discord that steers the white working class in the general direction of fascism. Bottom line: Who cares about the class struggle when any day now America will no longer be a white-majority nation. And then the part about the Jews. And the part about the homosexuals. Perhaps no one has yet to capture the politics of "divide and conquer" in America quite as effectively as it is encompassed here. https://youtu.be/bXWM84rUV-Q Unless, of course, that might be Spike Lee. Here he takes us back into the past [and possibly into the future] with a film "based on actual events". These events: "Ron Stallworth, an African American police officer from Colorado Springs, CO, successfully manages to infiltrate the local Ku Klux Klan branch with the help of a Jewish surrogate who eventually becomes its leader. It's almost impossible even to imagine. So it is fascinating enough just to watch to see how it all actually unfolds. And then this part: where do the events depicted in this film end and the presidency of Donald Trump begin? That's inevitably a point of view of course but who can doubt the trajectory of "the race question" unfolding on the front pages of America today. All it really might take now is one or another economic or foreign policy crisis to ratchet the tensions up all the more. Then all bets are off. IMDb The real Ron Stallworth had originally wanted Denzel Washington to play him, but was ecstatic to find out his younger son got the role. Contrary to popular belief, the real Ron Stallworth never used a "white" voice on the phone. He ironically had to use his real voice or they would have caught him if he slipped out of character. When his white colleagues told him it could not work, he asked what made his voice any different from theirs, but they never answered. The real David Duke called Ron Stallworth to express his concern over his "buffoonish, cartoonish idiot" portrayal in the film. Duke also said he respected director Spike Lee. After seeing the film, he was not pleased that the film did not follow the events of the book. When producer Jordan Peele first pitched the story -- "Black man infiltrates Ku Klux Klan" -- to director Spike Lee, Lee first thought it might be a suitable Dave Chappelle skit, until Peele assured him that the story was authentic. David Duke did not discover that Ron Stallworth was a black man until 2006, when a Miami Herald reporter contacted him for his side of the story. The real Ron Stallworth claimed that one of his biggest regrets in the investigation not being made public is that, had it been revealed, David Duke would have been made a fool for having been conned by a black man, and might not have continued his political career. The real Ron Stallworth kept his Klan membership card and unexpectedly revealed while promoting the film that he still carries it in his wallet. Stallworth joked that he was amused at the prospect of someone discovering it in his personal effects after his death. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7349662/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlacKkKlansman Trailer: https://youtu.be/pFc6I0rgmgY BlacKkKlansman [2018] Directed by Spike Lee Dr. Kennebrew Beauregard: Hello, my fellow Americans. They say we may have lost the battle but we didn't lose the war. Yes, my friends, we are under attack. You may have read about this in your local newspapers or seen it on the evening news. That's right. We are living in an era marked by the spread of integration and miscegenation. The Brown decision. The Brown decision, forced upon us by the Jewish-controlled puppets on the U.S. Supreme Court, compelling white children to go to school with an inferior race, is the final nail in a coffin, is the final nail in a black coffin towards America becoming a mongrel nation. We had a great way of life. We had a great way of life. We had a great way of life. We had a great way of life until the Martin Luther Coons of this world and their army of Commies started their civil rights assault against our holy white Protestant values. Do you really want your precious white child going to school with Negroes? They're lying, dirty monkeys, stopping at nothing to gain their equality with white men. Rapists, murderers, craving the virgin white, is it "virgin pure"? Rapists, murderers, craving the virgin pure flesh of white women. They are super predators! And the Negro's insidious tactics, under the tutelage of high-ranking, blood-sucking Jews, using an army of outside northern black beast preda...agitators. God, watch this! God! Using an army of outside northern black beast agitators determined to overthrow the God-commanded and biblically inspired rule of the white race. It's an international Jewish conspiracy. May God bless us all. ... Official: What would you do if another cop called you a nigger? Or worse. Ron: Would that happen, sir? Official: Shiiiiit! There's never been a black cop in this city. Now, if we make you an officer, you will, in effect, be the Jackie Robinson of the Colorado Springs Police Force. And if you know anything about Jackie Robinson, you know he had to take a lot of, uh, uh, guff from his fellow teammates, the fans, other teams and the press. Ron: I know the Jackie Roosevelt Robinson story, sir. Official: Good. So, knowing that, if somebody calls you a nigger, will you be able to turn the other cheek? Ron: If I had to, sir, yes. Yes, I would. ... Landers [a white cop]: I need a file on a toad. You deaf? I said I need a file on a toad. Ron: No toads here. Landers: Excuse me? Ron: I said I don't have any toads. I do have human beings. You give me their names, I'll get you the file. Landers: I heard you think you're hot shit, but you ain't nothing but a cold fart...Was that respectful enough for you, Officer Toad? ... Chief Bridges: The black radical, Stokely Carmichael, is giving a speech tonight at Bell's Nightingale. Ron: Yep. Bridges: Carmichael is a former high-muckety-muck with the Black Panthers. And as far as I'm concerned, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover was dead right when he said the Black Panthers are the greatest internal threat to the security of these United States. This Carmichael joker, former Panther or not, well, they say he is a damn good speaker, and so we don't want this Carmichael getting into the minds of the good black people here in Colorado Springs and stirring them up. Ron, your assignment is to go to this speech tonight, infiltrate this bunch of subversives and just monitor the audience reaction to Carmichael's speech. You ready? Ron: Born ready. ... Kwame Ture [aka Stokely Carmichael]: Let me ask you something...Is beauty defined as someone with a narrow nose? Crowd: No! Ture: Thin lips? Crowd: No! Ture: White skin? Crowd: Hell no! Hell no! Hell no! Ture: 'Cause you ain't got none of that. Our lips are thick. Our noses broad. Our hair is nappy. Crowd: Yes! Ture: We are black, and we are beautiful! Crowd: Yes! ... Ture: Y'all dig Tarzan? Tarzan. I'm gonna be honest. When I was a boy, I used to go to the Saturday matinees and watch Tarzan all the time. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And white Tarzan used to beat up the black natives. And I would sit there, yelling, "Kill the beasts!" "Kill the savages." "Kill them. Kill them! Kill them! Kill them!" But what I was saying was: "Kill me." That's right. It was as if a young Jewish boy saw Nazis taking Jews off to concentration camps and cheered them on. Today, I want those chiefs to beat the hell out of Tarzan and send his lily white ass on back to the caves of Europe!! ... Ture [after denouncing the war in Vietnam]: I'd rather see a brother kill a white racist cop than kill a Vietnamese. Because at least, if he kills a racist cop, he is doing it for a reason: because they are shooting black people. In the backs, in these streets, right here in this very country. They're killing us like dogs! ... Ture: I just want to leave you, sisters and brothers, with these last words. If I am not for myself, who will be? If I am for myself alone, who am I? If not now, when? If not you, who? ... Voice on the phone: You have reached the Colorado Springs chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. Please leave a message. And God bless white America. Ron: Hello. This is Ron Stallworth calling. I saw your advertisement in the Colorado Springs Gazette. I'm interested in receiving some reading materials from you. And so it begins. Walter [from the KKK on the phone]: This is Walter returning your call. From the Organization. Ron: The Organization? Walter: That's right. We appreciate your interest. What's your story? Ron [while all the white detectives listen in]: Well, since you asked... Since you asked, I hate niggers. I hate Jews. Spics and Micks. Dagos and Chinks. But my mouth to God's ears, I really hate those nigger rats. And anyone else, really, that doesn't have pure white Aryan blood running through their veins. My sister, Pamela, she was just recently accosted by one of those black coons. Walter: Is that so? Ron: Yeah. Every time I think about that black baboon putting his filthy black hands on her pure-as- white-driven-snow body...I mean pure, Walter. She's a saint. She's an angel. It makes me want to puke. Walter: You are just the kind of guy that we are looking for. ... Chief Bridges: Sergeant Trapp, Ron spoke to the man on the phone. All right, when they hear the voice of one of my guys, they're gonna know the difference. Ron: How so, Chief? Bridges: You want me to spell it out for you? They're going to know the difference between how a white man talks and a Negro. Ron: How exactly does a black man talk? Chief, some of us can speak King's English. Others speak jive. Ron Stallworth here happens to be fluent in both. Bridges: Okay, Ron, how do you propose to make this investigation? Ron: Well, I've established contact and created some familiarity with the Klansman over the phone. I'll continue in that role, but I'll need another officer...surprise, surprise, a white officer...to play me when they meet face-to-face. Chief, black Ron Stallworth over the phone, white Ron Stallworth face-to-face, so there becomes a combined Ron Stallworth. Bridges: Can you do that? Ron: I believe we can. With the right white man, we can do anything. ... Flip [as Ron]: But it's also, you know, camaraderie I'm looking for with the Klan. Felix: What the fuck did you say? Flip: Camaraderie? Felix: No, the other word. Flip: The Klan? Felix: Not "the Klan." It's "the Organization." The Invisible Empire has managed to stay invisible for a reason. Do not ever use that word. You understand? Flip: Hey, I over-stand. Right. You got it. The Organization. ... Walter: You know, I've had my own share of run-ins with niggers. Matter of fact, it's what led me to the Organization. Flip: Is that right? Walter: Oh, it's become my salvation. See, I was, uh...shot and wounded by a couple niggers. Then my wife was savagely raped by a whole pack of 'em. Flip: God. Walter: That's right, and not a one of them went to jail. Tell you what. They're taking over. Hell, it's all you see on TV anymore. Niggers selling soap. Niggers selling toothpaste. Niggers selling automobiles. Everywhere you look, it's niggers, niggers, niggers. Ivanhoe: Yeah, wasn't long ago them sumbitches wasn't on no TV. Walter: You're forgetting about Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima. Ivanhoe: Oh, dang. I kind of like them niggers. Rice and pancakes. ... Walter [on the phone]: This is Walter. Ron: Ron here. Walter: This is Ron? Sorry, your voice sounds different over the phone. Ron: Uh... My allergies... allergies acting up again. ... Trapp: I've got a friend. He, uh, keeps up with these groups. He says they're moving away from the old violent, racist style. So, that's what Duke is peddling now. It's, uh, becoming mainstream. Ron: Duke? Trapp: David Duke. Current Grand Wizard of the Klan. But he's always in a three-piece suit, never seen in a hood or robe in public, and he now goes by "national director." So he's clearly got his sights on higher office. Ron: Politics? How so? Trapp: Yeah. It's another way to sell hate. Ron: Keep going. Trapp: Think about it. Affirmative action, immigration, crime, tax reform. He says no one wants to be called a bigot anymore. I guess Archie Bunker made that too uncool. So the idea is, under all these issues, everyday Americans can accept it, support it, until eventually, one day, until eventually, one day, he gets somebody in the White House that embodies it. Sarge... Ron: Come on. America would never elect somebody like David Duke president of the United States of America. Trapp: Coming from a black man, that's pretty naive. ... Walter: We about done here? We got a few more items on the, uh... Felix: Not just yet. Gotta make sure there's no Jew in him. Walter: All right, now you're just being offensive. Okay? We're talking about someone who's gonna be our brother in a few months. You see a Star of David around his neck? Is there a yarmulke on Ron's head? Hmm? Felix: Just protocol. My house, my rules. This way. Flip: Where we going now? Felix: I gotta show you something. Walter: It's not necessary, Felix. This is how we lose recruits. ... Felix: You are going to take this lie detector test. Take a seat. Flip: What is this? Is this your Jew den? Is this where you make your candles, you know, and your lampshades? Felix: Nah, you're gonna take this lie detector test. Flip: This is some lame bullshit. Felix: Lame or not, you're taking this Jew lie detector test. Sit down. Flip: Okay, Felix. Out of respect for this Organization, I'll play along with your little Get Smart bullshit, but I'm no fucking Jew. ... Felix: This Holocaust stuff...never happened. That's the biggest Jewish conspiracy ever. Eight million Jews killed? Concentration camps? Never happened. Where's the proof? Flip: Are you high? 'Cause I'd say the Holocaust is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. It just makes sense to me. You have a whole race of leeches that you have to get rid of. So, what do you do? You starve 'em, you burn 'em, you get rid of 'em. It's like weeding out roots for the better people. Haven't you seen the footage? Felix: That's fake. Jews run Hollywood. Let me see your dick...I hear you Jews do something funny with your dicks. Some weird Jew shit. Is your dick circumstanced? Flip: Oh, is that what this is about? You're trying to see my big Jew dick, you fucking faggot. ... Flip: I didn't want to say it with Trapp, but that peckerwood had a gun in my face, and he was an ass hair away from pulling the trigger. Ron: And he didn't. Flip: But he could have. And then I would have been dead. For what? Stopping some jerk-offs from playing dress-up? Ron: Flip, it's intel. Flip: Well, I'm not risking my life to prevent some rednecks from lighting a couple sticks on fire. Ron: This is the job. What's your problem? Flip: That's my problem. For you, it's a crusade. For me, it's a job. It's not personal, nor should it be. Ron: Why haven't you bought into this? Flip: Why should I? Ron: Because you're Jewish, brother. The so-called chosen people. You've been passing for a WASP. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, cherry pie, hot dog, white boy. It's what some light-skinned black folks do. They pass for white. Doesn't that hatred you've been hearing the Klan say...doesn't that piss you off? Flip: Course it does. Ron: Then why you acting like you ain't got skin in the game, brother? Flip: Rookie, that's my fucking business. Ron: It's our business. Now, I'm going to get you your membership card so you can go to the cross burning and get in deeper with these guys. Okay. Right, partner? ... David Duke [on the phone]: Sorry, who am I talking to? Ron: This is Ron Stallworth calling from Colorado Springs, Colorado. Duke: Uh, what can I do you for? Ron: I-I desperately want to participate in my chapter's honorary events, but I can't until I receive my membership card. Duke: Of course that's something I can help you with. Ron: Great. Um, who am I speaking with? Duke: This is David Duke. Rlon [realizing who he is talking to]: Did you just say your name was David Duke? Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan? That...that David Duke? Duke: Yes, that Grand Wizard and national director, yeah. Ron: National director, too, huh? Duke: Yes, you're darn tootin'. Ron: That's amazing. I'm honored to be speaking with you, sir. I'm not afraid to say it. I consider you a true white American hero. Duke: Is there any other kind? Ron: No, sir. Duke; I'm just happy to be talking to a true white American. Ron: Amen. ... Ron: What if there was a cop trying to change that? Patrice: From inside? Ron: Yes, from inside. Patrice: You can't change things from the inside. It's a racist system. Ron: You just give up like that? Patrice: No. We fight for what black people really need...black liberation. Ron: Right, right. So, can't you do that from the inside? Patrice: No, you can't. The white man won't give up his position in power without a struggle. What did Du Bois say about double consciousness? Twoness? Being an American and a Negro? Two warring ideals inside one dark body. Ron: That's heavy, Patrice. I feel that...like I'm two people all the time. Patrice: But you shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have a war going on inside ourselves. We should just be black. Ron: We're not there yet, though. Patrice: Well, I'm tired of waiting. ... Felix: You got a twin. Flip: What? Felix: You got a twin. Flip: Twin what? Felix: A twin twin. And your twin is a nigger. Looked in the phone book. Went over to what I thought was his place. I found a nig there. ... Ron [giving Flip his KKK membership card]: This is it. Flip: Holy shit. "Ron Stallworth, member in good standing for the year." "Knights of the Ku Klux Klan." Ron: That's us. Stallworth Brothers. Flip: Yeah, well, you don't have that little psychopath, Felix, staring at you, asking where you live. I'm Jewish, yes, but I wasn't raised to be. It wasn't part of my life. I never thought much about being Jewish. Nobody around me was Jewish. You know, I wasn't going to a bunch of Bar Mitzvahs. I didn't have a Bar Mitzvah. I was just another white kid. And now I'm in some basement denying it out loud. I never thought much about it. Now I'm thinking about it all the time. ... Ivanhoe: You soak the wood in kerosene and light a cig on a pack of matches. It kind of buys you some time to get the fuck out before the cross catches fire. Flip: Yeah. Must be quite a sight. Ivanhoe: Oh, yeah, it is. It's great. It's a real bonfire. You can see it from miles away, you know? Good visibility, as Walter would say. Freaks out the Jew media, and it... well, it keeps niggers on their nigger toes. ... Ron [on the phone]: Me and Butter Biscuit played together every day. One day, my father came home early from work. He told me I couldn't play with that little spook anymore because I was white and Butter Biscuit was a nigger. Duke: That's so rich. Well, your father sounds like a terrific man. Ron: He was a true American. Taught me what was right. Duke: This is why we need more people like you and me in public office... Get this country back on track. Ron: Amen. Duke: For America to achieve its greatness again. Hint, hint. Ron [on the phone]: Aren't you ever concerned of some smart-aleck nigger calling you, pretending to be white? Duke: No. I can always tell when I'm talking to a Negro. Ron: How so? Duke: Take you, for example, Ron. Ron [suddenly concerned]: Me? Duke: Yeah. I mean, I can tell that you're a pure Aryan white man from the way you pronounce certain words. Ron: Can you give me any examples? Duke: Yeah, take the word, uh, "are." Pure Aryan like you or I would pronounce it correctly. "Are." Negro pronounces it "are-uh." Did you ever notice that? It's like, "Are-uh you gonna fry up that crispy fried chicken, soul brother?" You know? Ron: Wow. You are so white. Thank you for teaching me this lesson. If you had not brought it to my attention, I wouldn't have noticed the difference between how we talk and how Negroes talk. ... Ron: Mr. Stallworth. Pleased to meet you. Stallworth: Names of chapter members? Ron: What is this about? Stallworth: Two names on your list work at NORAD. Ron: The two mystery men, Steve and Jerry? Stallworth: Real names are Harry Dricks and Kevin Nelson. Two clowns with top security clearances. These Klansmen are in charge of monitoring our safety. You've done a service to your country. We've been following your investigation. Impressive. Last night, Fort Carson reported several C-4 explosives missing from their armory. No suspects. Ron: Klan? Wait, the KKK and the United States Army? Stallworth [handing him a folder]: You won't see this on the news for obvious reasons, but thought it might be of interest to you. Ron: If you know about a possible attack, I need to know when. Stallworth: You're the one with the impressive investigation. Ron: But can't you or the FBI chip in? Sir? Stallworth: FBI? Federal Bureau of Investigation? We never had this conversation. ... Ron: No one else can know while it's an active investigation. Patrice: Active investigation? And pray tell, how do you know that? Are you a pig? Ron: No. Patrice: Wh-What are you, then? Ron: I'm an undercover detective. I'm investigating the Klan. Patrice: Fucking KKK? Ron Stallworth, you lied to me. Is that even your real name? Ron: Ron Stallworth is my first and last name. Look, today is not the day, Patrice. Patrice: I take my duties as the president of the Black Student Union seriously. Ron: Well, how much good did it do? You could sit in the middle of Nevada Avenue, light yourself on fire, the KKK will still be here. Patrice: Well, at least I would be doing something, unlike you. Ron: Unlike me? Don't think, just because I don't wear a black beret or a black leather jacket, black Ray-Bans, screaming, "Kill Whitey," that I don't care about my people. Patrice: The night we saw Brother Kwame speak, were you undercover then, too? ... Ron: Mr. Duke. I'm a detective from the Colorado Springs Police Department. I'm here to keep you safe today. Duke: I'm sorry, have...have we met before? ... Duke: Ron Stallworth, are you a white, non-Jewish American citizen? Flip: Yes. Duke: Yes...what? Flip: Yes, I am a white, non-Jewish American citizen. Duke: Are you in favor of a white man's government in this country? Flip: Yes. Duke: Ron Stallworth, are you willing to dedicate your life to the protection, the preservation and the advancement of the white race in mind, in body - and in spirit? Flip: Yes. Duke: Be seated. ... Walker: He's a cop. Felix: Who? Walker: That guy. Felix: Ron? Walker: No, the other guy. Felix: Ron's a cop? Walker: His name is Phillip, but his nickname is Flip. Felix: Who's Phillip? Walker: Who's Ron? That's Phillip. Felix: What the fuck are you talking about? Walker: That guy. That's the cop that sent me to the fucking big house for armed fucking robbery. His fucking name is Phillip. Phillip Zimmerman. Felix: Isn't that a fucking Jew name? Walker: You can't go by that. Jews change their name all the time to non-Jew names. I mean, they killed Jesus, right? Felix: Ron Stallworth is a fucking Jew. Walker: Could've been worse. Ferlix: How so? Walker: Could've been a nigger. ... Duke; What was that all about? Why'd he keep calling you Flip? Flip: We were in prison together. Years ago. Uh, it's an inside joke. ... Patrice: How often do you do that to black people? Landers: Do what? Patrice: Pull us over for nothing. Harass us. Put your hands all over a woman in the guise of searching her. Call us everything but a child of God. Landers: I don't know what you're talking about. Ron: Just like I told you, right, he's just taking advantage. In the end, talking loud, saying nothing. Landers: Let me tell you both something. I've been keeping you people in line in this city for years. What I did to your girl that night, I could do to any of you any time, any place. That's my prerogative. I could even bust a cap in your black ass if I feel like it, and nothing will be done about it. I wish the two of you been blown up instead of good white folks. Get it? Ron [lifting up his shirt to reveal that he is wired]: Oh, I do get it. Do you get it, Patrice? Patrice: Mmm, yeah. I totally and completely get it. Jimmy, did you get it? Jimmy: Oh, yes, I got it. Flip, did you get it? Flip: Oh, yeah, I got it. Chief! Do you get it? Bridges: Oh, I really, really get it. Landers, you're under arrest. ... Bridges: I need you, Ron Stallworth, to destroy all evidence of this investigation. Ron: What? Bridges: We prefer that the public never knew about this investigation. Ron: Uh-huh. Bridges: Cease all further contact with the Ku Klux Klan, effective immediately. That goes for you, too, Flip. Flip: This is total horseshit. ... Duke [on the phone]: And then there was that nigger detective. Ron: Those goddamn coloreds. Duke: They sure know how to spoil a celebration. Ron: Christ, you can say that again. Those goddamn coloreds sure know how to spoil a celebration. Can I ask you a question, sir? Duke: Shoot. Ron: That nigger detective, did you ever...did you ever get his name? Duke: No. I don't think I... Ron: Are-uh you sure you don't know who he is? Are-uh you absolutely sure? 'Cause that nigga, coon, gator bait, spade, spook, Sambo, spear-chucking jungle bunny, Mississippi wind chime... Duke: Wind chime? Ron: ...detective is Ron Stallworth, you racist, peckerwood, redneck, inch worm, needle-dick motherfucker! ... Patrice: Have you handed in your resignation from the KKK? Ron: Affirmative. Patrice: Have you handed in your resignation from the Colorado Springs Police Department? Ron: Negative. Truth be told, Patrice, I always wanted to be a cop, and I'm still for the liberation of my people. Patrice: My conscience won't let me sleep with the enemy. Ron: Enemy? No, I'm the black man that saved your life. Patrice: You're absolutely right. And I thank you for it, but...I can't do this. Cut to Trump after clips of the Charlottesville protest... Trump: You had a group on one side that was bad, and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent...Not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists. You also had people that were very fine people. ... Duke [at a rally]: Because I believe that today in Charlottesville, this is a first step toward making a realization of something that Trump alluded to earlier in the campaign, which is...this is the first step toward taking America back. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film The human condition. Over time, some things change, some things don't. The parts however that both do and don't generally revolve around interactions embedded in subsistence and class. In gender. In sex. In love. Some of it is derived from genes and some from memes. But put the two together and there is no telling how many different combinations of actual lived experiences we might come up with in apprising the "meaning" of it. Some however are better at observing it than others. And surely Anton Chekhov was among those with the keenest of minds. The events in "The Seagull" unfold on a "country estate" over a century ago. So the part about class becomes crystal clear. These are men and women afforded the leisure time to become intertwined [or entangled] in any number of "personal relationships". It's just that some are considerably more sophisticated in traversing the labyrinths and the minefields than others. But make no mistake about it. The interactions here are always straddling the fence between what most people think they are expected to do and what a few are able to get away with in recognizing that this is not necessarily set in stone. Or written in the Bible. Still, in being basically a "dramedy", much of it can be taken to be a poke at particular people in a particular age that often take themselves too seriously. Or not nearly seriously enough. The human comedy as some might call it. But there is really no getting around the parts that devolve into tragedy. And then the part where art itself either does or does not imitate life more than it is actually able to change it. Would Chekhov approve? Many insist he most definitely would not. Me, I wouldn't know about such things. But he would surely have something to say about the "alternate ending". It made absolutely no sense to me. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seagull_(2018_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/78FyrqpgZKs The Seagull [2018] Directed by Michael Mayer Medvedenko: Why do you always wear black? Masha: I'm in mourning for my life. Medvedenko: Why? You're healthy. You have enough money to get by. Life's a lot harder for me. I'm a schoolteacher. I hardly make anything. You don't see me all in black. Masha: It's not about money. Even a poor man can be happy. Medvedenko: Every day, I meet with nothing but indifference from you. Masha: Stop it, Medvedenko. I'm touched by your love. I just can't return it. That's all. ... Sorin: Why is my sister in such a bad mood? Konstantin: Why? She's bored. Jealous. She's already set against me and the play because she's not acting in it, and Nina is. She already hates it. Sorin: Your mother adores you. Konstantin: She also knows I have no respect for her theater. She thinks she's dedicated to serving humanity with her sacred art, but as far as I'm concerned, the modern theater is trite and riddled with cliches. When they take cheap, vulgar plots and cheap, vulgar speeches and try to extract - some easily digestible moral. I want to run out of the exit and keep on running the way Maupassant ran from the Eiffel Tower because its vulgarity was crushing his brain. Sorin: We need the theater. Konstantin: What we need are new forms, and if we can't have them, then give us nothing! ... Sorin [of Boris Trigorin]: What's the gossip on him? Konstantin: He's smart, actually. Unpretentious. Kind of melancholy. Pretty decent, really. Not even 40, but he's already a celebrity. Maybe a little full of himself. These days, he drinks a lot of beer and makes love to older women. Sorin: Well, when I was young, I passionately wanted two things. I wanted to get married. I wanted to become an author. I never managed either one. ... Konstantin: Why are you so nervous? Nina: I'm not. Well, I'm not afraid to perform for your mother, but Boris Trigorin, he's so famous. I'm embarrassed to act in front of him. He looked young. Konstantin: He is young and accomplished, don't remind me. Nina: His stories are incredible...full of life. In your plays, everyone's dead. Konstantin: My goal is to show life the way we experience it in dreams, not the way it is or the way we think it should be. Nina: Yes, but nothing happens in your play. It's all talk. ... Nina [acting in Konstantin's play]: Cold, cold, empty, empty, horrible, horrible, most horrible... Irina: My thoughts exactly. Konstantin: Mother! ... Konstantin [unable no longer to stand his mother's derisive comments]: Bring up the curtain! Bring down the curtain! I've had enough! Enough! No, enough! I'm sorry! I'm sorry, I forgot that writing and acting in plays is reserved for the chosen few! I've defied the monopoly! ... Sorin: For heaven's sake, he wanted to please you. Irina: And I was willing to listen, even to his ravings, but his claims to new forms, they're pretentious. Since when has the exhibition of a morbid personality been a new art form? Boris: Everyone writes what he wants and as best he can. Irina: Well, then let him write what he wants and as best he can. Just tell him to please leave me in peace. ... Irina [as Nina leaves]: Poor girl. Literally. Her mother died and left everything to her father, but when he dies, he's leaving everything to his new wife. Nina won't get a cent. She'll have nothing. It's scandalous. Doctor [with Nina overhearing]: Yes. To be frank, her father is a monster. ... Doctor: I liked your play very much. It's definitely strange. And I didn't hear the end, of course, but it made a strong impression on me. You're a talented man. You need to continue. You know, I've had a pretty interesting life. I'm content, but...If I ever got to experience the spiritual high an artist feels at the moment of creation, I bet I would abandon my current life, leave it all behind. ... Irina [to Masha]: I work. I'm constantly doing something. I experience life. You just sit still in one place, not really living. And I have a rule. I never think about the future. I never think about old age or death. What will come in life will come. ... Nina [after Konstantin shoots and kills a sesgull and then plops the dead bird at her feet]: What's that supposed to mean? Konstantin: I sank low enough today to kill this seagull. I lay it at your feet. Nina: What's wrong with you? Konstantin: Soon, I'm gonna kill myself in the same way. Nina [walking away from him]: Don't follow me. I don't know you like this. Konstantin: I don't know you like this! You look at me as if I'm a stranger. Are you embarrassed by me? Nina: Well, lately, you've become so...you keep talking in symbols or...I mean, look at that seagull. What does that mean? Because, I'm sorry, Konstantin, but I have no idea. Maybe I'm too simple to understand you. Konstantin: What don't you understand? My play was a fiasco. Now you think I'm some insignificant nobody just like the rest of them do! [she hurries away] Konstantin: Nina! Nina!! ... Boris: It's not often I have the occasion to meet young, interesting women. I mean it. I've already forgotten what it's like to be 18 or 19. That's why the young women in my books and stories don't ring true. I'd love to be in your shoes for just an hour, know how you think, what kind of little creature you are. Nina: Well, I'd love to be in your shoes, to know how it feels to be a celebrated writer. ... Nina: I envy you. Some people can barely crawl through their dull, obscure existence, but you get a life that's brilliant, interesting, meaningful. You're happy. Boris [chuckling]: Am I? Here you are talking about fame, happiness. To me, you sound a bit naive. Nina [now angry storms away]: Well, to me, you sound jaded and pompous. Boris [catching up with her]: All right. Wait. Come back. Wait. All right. Let's talk about my beautiful, brilliant life. How do I begin? Day and night, I am haunted by a single, obsessive thought. "I must write. I must write. I must write." No sooner do I finish one story, then, for God knows what reason, I have to write another, and another, and another. What's so beautiful and brilliant about that? It's a ridiculous life. Here I am. I'm talking to you. I'm getting all riled up. You see that cloud over there? Looks like a grand piano. I'm thinking, I must fit that into a story sometime. "A cloud drifted by, looking like a grand piano." I catch a whiff of heliotrope. I instantly make a mental note. "Cloying smell, color of widow's weeds. Must refer to that next time I'm describing a summer's evening." Nina: Go on. ... Nina: Konstantin is constantly in his head, dreaming about his next work. Boris: Well, when I was his age, many years ago, when you're starting out, unknown and ignored, the work is sheer agony. But even then, even when you're a lesser writer without any luck, you still want to be part of the literary scene. Nina: But when you're inspired, actually in the thick of creation, doesn't that give you, just for that moment, a feeling of being lifted up, of sublime happiness? ... Nina [watching Boris write in his notebook]: What are you writing? Boris: An idea for a short story." A young girl who spent her whole life on the shore of a lake. A lake that she loves, where she feels happy and free, like a seagull. And? And by chance, a man comes along, sees her. And with nothing better to do..." What she doesn't hear but what we see in the notebook: "...destroys her." Masha [after Konstantin shoots himself but lives]: I'll be honest with you. If he had seriously hurt himself, I couldn't live another minute. I have decided I am going to tear this love out of my heart. Just going to rip it out by the roots. Boris: How are you gonna do that? Masha: I'll get married to Medvedenko. Boris: I think that's overdoing it. Masha: Is it? Loving without hope. Waiting for years for something that will never come. You don't know what I've been feeling. At least, when I'm married, I'll have new troubles to blot out the old ones, right? But he's a good person, and, well, he doesn't have any money, but he loves me very much. ... Boris: Not content with ruining his own life, Konstantin is hell-bent on ruining mine. He's challenged me to a duel. Masha: Oh, no. Boris: Why? Because of my writing? There's room enough for all of us. Masha: Of course. But he's jealous. You must know that. ... Masha [to Bris]: Until next time, my friend. Send me your books, and be sure to write a dedication. And none of that "deepest regards" or "fond wishes." Just write, "To Masha, who has no clue where she belongs or what she's doing on this Earth." ... Konstantin: These last few days, I've loved you as tenderly and as honestly as I did when I was little. I have nobody but you now. I just don't understand why...why do you let that man have such a hold over you? Irina: You don't know him, Konstantin. He's noble. Konstantin: "Noble"? Irina: And you might not like the fact that we're lovers, but you're intelligent and cultured. Konstantin: I'm sorry. But we're practically falling out over him, and right now, he's in the garden with Nina, trying to convince her that he's some sort of genius. Irina: You seem to take pleasure in being horrible to me. I have the greatest respect for that man, and I will thank you not to speak of him like that - in my presence. Konstantin: But I don't respect him. I'm sorry, I can't. His books are...they make me sick. Irina: That's envy. People who lack talent spend their time insulting those who have it. It's their consolation prize. Konstantin: Is that why you spend all your time insulting me? Because you have no talent? Irina: No. You're just being a baby. Konstantin: Why? Because I'm not taken in by either of you? Irina: Oh, yes, yes. My son, the radical. Konstantin: Yeah, then go on, that's it. Run away. Run away just like you always do. Run off to your cozy little theater and act in your pathetic, stupid little plays. Irina [angrily]: I have never in my life appeared in a play of that description. I do as many celebrated classics as I do silly comedies. This winter, I'm touring in Macbeth. Konstantin: Are you one of the witches? Irina: I'm Lady Macbeth. Snide little nonentity. Get away from me. You, you can't even write a wretched little comic sketch. Why don't you just go back to Kiev and open a shop? Parasite. Konstantin: Miser. Irina: Rat's nest! Konstantin: Has-been! Irina [pushing him away]: Nobody! You're nobody! ... Irina [to Konstantin]: There's nothing to cry about. He's going away. I promise. I am taking him away. And then she'll love you again, and it'll be all right. ... Boris: Be reasonable. You're capable of sacrifice. Be a true friend. Please, be generous. Let me go. Irina: "Be generous"? What, are you that infatuated with her? Boris: I'm attracted to her. I...this could be what's missing in my life. Irina: What? The love of a little country girl? That's how little you know yourself? Boris: I can't stop thinking about her. Even now, I'm talking with you, but it's as if I'm asleep. I'm possessed by the thought of her. This could be my last chance at a love like this. Please, I am begging you. Let me go. Irina: No. Boris: Let me go. Irina: No, no, no. You can't say those things to me, Boris. I'm just a woman like any other. Boris: This is your chance to be a woman unlike any other. Irina: You're torturing me. Please, you're scaring me. Boris: I've never known love like this before. When I was young, I spent every minute struggling to survive, and now it's in front of me, a love I've never known, and you want me to run away from it?! Irina: You have lost your mind. Boris: I don't care! Please, let me go. Irina: My dear, my darling, wonderful man. My life's last page. If you leave me even for an instant, I just won't be alive at the end of it. My magician. My prince. My king in all his glory. Boris: Somebody could come in at any minute. Irina: Let them. I'm not ashamed of loving you, and I am not setting you free. You are the most brilliant writer in Russia. Your work has such integrity and simplicity and humor. Your characters are alive. Do you realize that it is impossible to read you without getting swept up? What? You think I'm flattering you. Look at me. Look into my eyes. Am I lying to you? I'm the only one who always tells you the truth. Always. You'll come with me, won't you? Don't abandon me. Boris: I have no will of my own. Never have. I'm spineless, weak, submissive. Is that what women really want? Take me. Take me away. Just don't relax your grip for an instant. ... Boris; We're leaving. I'm sorry. Nina: It's all right. We'll see each other again. I've made up my mind once and for all. I'm going on the stage. Tomorrow, I'll be gone from here. I'm leaving my father. I'm leaving everything. I'm going to start a new life. I'm going to Moscow. Boris: Stay at the Slavyansky Bazaar. Let me know as soon as you arrive. I have to go. Nina: Just another minute. Boris: You're so beautiful. Two years later... Polina: My heart aches for you. I'm not blind. Masha: Please don't. It's all ridiculous. Unrequited love. It only exists in novels. You can't sit around always hoping that something will happen. If you start to feel love in your heart, you've got to rip it out. ... Doctor: Where is Nina now, Kostya? How's she doing? Konstantin: She's all right, I think. Doctor: I heard she'd been leading a somewhat untidy life. Konstantin: Nina's, uh... It's a very long story. Sorin: Well, make it brief. Konstantin: Well, she left home and went to live with Boris, so that much you know. They had a baby, who died. Not long after, Boris got tired of her. He went back to his old ties, as you might expect, or rather he never let go of them. Having no backbone, he was able to bend both ways. Doctor: And what about the stage? Konstantin: She debuted in a theater outside of Moscow, then left for a tour of the provinces. She took on all the big roles, but she acted coarsely. Tastelessly. Lots of shrieking and big, ugly gestures. There were moments when you could see her talent, when she was crying or dying. I tried to see her once after a performance. I waited at her stage door like a beggar, but she won't see anyone. ... Boris: Masha. Maha; You recognized me. Boris: You're married now? Masha: Yes. Boris: You're happy? Masha: I'm married. ... Nina [weeping]: Your mother brought him with her? Konstantin: Nina. Nina, don't cry. Nina: So, you're a real writer now. And I'm an actress. We both jumped into the fire. I dreamed of glory, and now look at me. First thing tomorrow, I'm off to Yelets. Booked there for the winter season. Traveling third-class with the peasants. Konstantin: Why wouldn't you ever see me? Nina: I thought you hated me. Konstantin: I did. Hate you. I cursed you. Nina: If you had any idea of what my life has been like... Konstantin: I do. And none of that matters to me. I don't have the power to stop loving you. Even now...now I've had success. Without you, my life has been...please...stay here with me. Or let me come with you. Nina: No. Konstantin: Nina, what's wrong? Nina: You shouldn't still love me. I should be killed. Konstantin: Don't say that. Nina [crying]: I'm so tired. I need a rest. I'm the seagull. No, I'm an actress. Konstantin: Nina... Nina: You know, he laughed at me. He made fun of my acting. When I started onstage, I... God, I didn't...I didn't know what to do with my hands. I didn't know where to stand. I couldn't... I couldn't control my voice. You have no idea how it feels to be onstage and know how badly you're acting. Konstantin: You're a wonderful actress. Nina: No, I'm the seagull. I'm the seagull. I'm the seagull! ... Nina: I've been walking and walking and thinking, and I know now that, for us, what counts isn't dreaming about fame and glory, but it's about endurance. It's about knowing how to keep going in spite of everything. Having faith in myself, that's helped. Konstantin: But what if I have no faith in myself or any clue where I'm going or what I'm doing? Nina: I have to go. Konstantin: I'm coming with you. Nina: No. Konstantin: Well, then stay here, please, Nina. Nina: No. Konstantin: Nina, please, stay here. Nina: Stop asking me. I can't! I can't. Konstantin: Why? Nina: Because I love him! Because I still love him. I love him more than before. ... Nina [to Konstantin]: Remember how good it was before? Everything was so simple and clear. ... Irina: Don't give me that look. Sorin: No, no, no. You'll be scared, too, when it's your turn. Doctor: The only people who can fear death rationally are those who believe in life hereafter, because they fear retribution for their sins. But you...First, you don't believe. And secondly, what sins? You haven't done anything, except spend 25 years in the Department of Justice. Sorin: Twenty-eight. The sound of an explosion. Doctor: Probably a little explosion in my medical bag. Nothing to worry about. Happens all the time. I'll go see. [he leaves the room and then returns] Doctor: Just as I thought. A small bottle of ether exploded. My apologies. Irina: Oh, everything went black for a moment. I thought... ... Nina [voiceover off camera]: "All lives, all lives all lives, having accomplished their doleful circle, have died out. Already, thousands of centuries have passed since the Earth has borne one living creature. And in vain, the poor moon shines her light." He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Best friends. Almost everybody has one. And those who don't prabably want one. On the other hand, where do you draw the line with them? In other words, for those who do have best friends, you never really know when you might be confronted with that. The circumstances might vary considerably, but there it is: the commitment. What are you willing to do for your best friend? What are you obligated to do? Where do you draw the line? And, this being a movie, the circumstances are volatile indeed. Collin is out on paraole. He's a black man confronting the final three days of his probation. Above all else, he must stay out of trouble. Only, as we suspect, Miles, his own best friend, who is white, is almost never not in trouble. Then the part about race, the part about class, the part about gentrification, the part about police brutality, the part about tumbling into an urban world [Oakland, California] that is going through changes. You can't go back, you don't want to go back, but the path forward is strewn with uncertainty. And so much is at stake. Also, the film explores the idea that someone's behaviors can only really be understodd as a "a product of his environment". We are shaped and molded by the world we lived in, by the world we grew up in. How much of that has to be taken into account when the time comes to make some changes yourself? But then the part where Collin is rapping to the cop. I mean, come on. Look for "heightened language". IMDb Structurally, the film is close to a Shakespearean play with a small epilogue. The main action of the film is bookended by classical references: the opening montage of Oakland is not set to hip hop or other urban music, as is the norm for other "gritty city" films, but to an operatic chorus from Verdi's " La Traviata" "Libiamo ne' lieti calici" ("Let's drink from the joyful cups"), and the "Shakespearean" rap. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7242142/tr ... =ttqu_sa_1 at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindspotting trailer: https://youtu.be/-9-HBqVbtTo Blindspotting [2018] Directed by Carlos López Estrada Judge [to Collin]: All right. Now that you have completed your two-month sentence at Alameda County Jail, Santa Rita, you will proceed to a halfway house facility to begin your one-year probation period. You will have an 11:00 p.m. curfew, maintain employment, carry out assigned chores. Do not travel outside of Alameda County, and have zero altercations with law enforcement under any circumstances. Any infraction, fighting, drug use, et cetera, will result in immediate return to Santa Rita. Mr. Hoskins. Mr. Hoskins. Mr. Hoskins. Mr. Hoskins. Give me a verbal confirmation that you've heard and understood these parameters. Collin [who seems to be somewhat in a daze]: Yeah. Title card: 11 months, 27 days later...3 days left on probation. Collin: Nigga, I got three days left on this probation, Miles, so let me on out of the car. ... Collin: Nigga, why are there six guns in your car, Dezz?! ... Collin: Hey, man, do me a favor. When you got that gun on you, just don't tell me about it. Plausible deniability. Miles: What gun are you talking about, Collin? [Miles pulls out a handgun] Miles: Oh! Oh, do you mean this gun?! ... Collin: I, uh, saw the cops kill a nigga last night. Miles: Ooh. What you mean you saw it? Collin: Dude runs up past the truck and then the cops came up, shot him. Miles: Is he dead? Collin: Oh, yeah, he dead. They shot him like four times. Miles: I mean, that don't necessarily mean he dead. Not like they shot him 14 times like that motherfucker out in Milwaukee. ... Newsman [on TV] After a pursuit in West Oakland last night, a dramatic standoff with police left one suspect dead. Miles: This the shit you saw? Newsman: He was evading arrest by fleeing down Adeline Street towards West Grand... Miles: You see this cop? Collin: Yeah, I saw him. Newsman: ...police officers fired four shots, killing the man. Miles: This cop see you? Collin: Yeah. Miles: What, then you just left? Collin: I mean, it was after 11:00. What I'm supposed to do? Miles: But you're a witness. You're not gonna leave like a statement or some shit? Collin [pretending to be phinong the police]: "Hello, police? I'd like to report a murder you did. I was out after curfew. Yeah, I'm a convicted felon. All right. Back to jail? Yeah, tomorrow works for me. What time?" ... Nancy [Collin's mother]: You really couldn't find an apartment? The whole damn city got a "For Rent" sign on it. Collin: "Have you ever been convicted of a felony? If so, what is the nature of your crime?" Nancy: Well, whose fault is that? Collin: Damn. ... Mama Liz: How do I know these things even work?! ... Collin: I was driving, but if he reach across me and honk the horn, then what I'm supposed to do? Val: Collin, just take some responsibility for the things that are happening around you. Collin: I'm not denying it. I'm just saying that maybe this time it wasn't the black guy with dreads that did it. Val: Now if you could just get rid of all this hair. You'd almost look... Collin: Less blamable? ... James [from the Halfway House]: You're late, Mr. Hoskins. Collin: You just stand there all day? Isn't this something we could automate? James: You want a robot telling you to mop the bathroom? How about a robot that just mops the bathroom? Then I can go get some sleep. Collin: Solutions oriented. See, I like that. James: Even better. How about motherfuckers just don't get arrested for dumb shit? Collin: I see where we're going here, but if we could just get to it... James: Then I don't have to enforce seemingly arbitrary tasks to establish your ability to follow rules as a representation of law. Collin: Arbitrary. That's the word right there. James: Don't make me write you up for your last week. The judge will extend your time here a year. And then your little map box sentence starts over. Collin: Convicted on dirty bathroom charges? James: You are now a convicted felon, Mr. Hoskins. You are now that until proven otherwise. Prove otherwise at all times. Collin: Got it. Title card: Last day on probation. Collin [to Miles]: Didn't she say something about a boat? ... Collin: What is your problem with Val? Miles: Val is a disloyal bitch. When you were in jail, did she put money on your books? Uh, did she come visit you even one time at Rita while you were locked up? 'Cause I'm pretty sure I went two times a week, 45 minutes each way.$500 on your book on day one.
Collin: Hey, she talked to me on the phone.
Miles: How gracious of her to have called you once. And what did she want to talk to you about? About changing up your lifestyle? Changing up your ways? You're not a thug, drug dealer! You went to jail on a fire technicality.
Collin: Did I?
Miles: Yes! How were we supposed to know that hipsters are so flammable?

Cue Topher and the Scorpion Bowl

Val: Collin and his white friend stomped that drunk dude until he was unconscious. He was in the hospital for a week? And all over a drink.

...

Val: You're about to get a fresh restart. You need to get rid of Miles.
Collin: Miles is my best friend.
Val: Yeah, is he? 'Cause I know you guys grew up together, but he's gonna put you back in jail or he's gonna get you fucking killed.
Collin: Miles had my back since we were 11 years old. When I went to jail, Miles came and saw me all the time.
Val: I'm not talking about this with you again. He came to visit you out of guilt. 'Cause he pushed you into a fight, and he didn't go to jail with you. What if that dude had had a gun? What if Miles' dumb ass had a gun? What if the cops showed up and they saw you stomping that white dude? Who do you think they would have shot? Miles?
Collin: Good night, Val.

...

Sid [one of the gentrification yuppies]: What the fuck you think you're doing, man? Come on, this is my fucking house! Get the fuck out of here, man!
Woman: Get the hell out!
Man: Yeah, dude, go home.
Miles: Get the fuck out of where? Huh? Get the fuck out of where?
[Miles pulls out his gun]
Woman: He's got a gun!
Miles [firing the gun]: Y'all get the fuck out of here! Y'all get the fuck out! Oh, yeah, y'all love Oakland now, huh? Get the fuck out of here! Go!

...

Collin [about Terry]: That is Nak's partner!
Miles: I don't give a fuck who the fuck it is! Nak's partner, is that yo' partner? No! Is that yo' partner? No! You know how many times I'da have yo' back out here? How many motherfucking times I'da stepped up fo yo' ass? Huh? And you didn't do shit to help me! - Collin: Because...
Mies: Look at my face, bruh!
Collin: Because it was fucking stupid, Miles!
Miles: Look who the fuck I am? Where the fuck I am, Collin? That's how the fuck I survive out here! You wanna act brand-new, then fine. Go ahead. Be a hipster, get a tech job or some shit. And go act like you don't know where the fuck you from!
Collin: I ain't got to prove to nobody where the fuck I'm from!
Miles: Oh, good for you!
Collin: Nigga, you got something to prove to everybody!
Miles: Yeah? That's 'cause I'm livin' somewhere where now everybody got me fucked up! You ain't gotta do shit! You ain't gotta....You ain't gotta worry about you changing up your clothes or your lifestyle. You ain't gotta worry about none of that shit! You're a big black dude with fucking braids in Oakland! Nobody is misreading you, Collin.

...

Collin: Say it.
Miles: What?
Collin: Say "nigga."
Miles: Oh, fuck you!
Collin: Say it! Say, "Yeah, my nigga!"
Miles: No, and you know...Cause you know I don't say that shit! But what?
Collin: So it's okay for me to call you nigga, nigga?
Miles: You been calling me that since we were fucking 12 years old. I'm not gonna stop you now. Do what the fuck you want to, -say what you want to say.
Collin: Nigga, if that is so disrespectful, then why is it okay for me to call you that? You're a fucking nigga! You're a fucking nigga, Miles!
Miles: Why are we talking about...
Collin: You out here acting an ass like it ain't no fucking consequences for that shit. And every nigga who sees me thinks that I do the same dumb, fuckin' ignorant, gun-carrying shit that you do! But I've been taking care of my shit! I fucking...Don't I do our timecards every week? I pick us up. I keep you out of dumb shit, and then what do you do? You go out and you buy a fucking gun for what? For your family? You are the nigger that they are out here looking for!

...

Miles [after Collin turns and walks away from him]: Where the fuck you goin'? Where the fuck are you goin'? Collin! Collin! Well then, fuck you then! You hear that? Then, fuck you then!

...

Ashley: Well, maybe if you niggas weren't so wild all the fuckin' time.
Miles: Could you not call me that?
Ashley: What, "nigga"?
Miles: Yeah, can you not call me that, please?
Ashley: Okay.

...

Collin [on the phone]: How's the memorizing coming?
Val: Yeah, just trying to learn these psych terms.
Collin: What did you come up with for the double picture one? The face and the vase one? Val: Oh, I like that one. It was "blindspotting."
Collin: Why "blindspotting"?
Val: 'Cause it's all about how you can look at something, and there can be another thing there that you aren't seeing. So you got a blind spot.
Collin: But if somebody points out the other picture to you, doesn't that make it not a blind spot anymore?
Val: No, 'cause you can't go against what your brain wants to see first. Unless you spend the time to retrain your brain, which is hella hard, so you're always gonna be instinctually blind to the spot you weren't seeing.
[Collin says nothing]
Val: Collin?
Collin: When you look at me now, do you always see the fight first?

Title card: First day off probation.

Collin [holding a gun on the ex-cop Molina who killed Randall]: Does this scare you, huh? Fuck you know about being scared? Were you afraid someone was gonna come find you? Huh?
Miles: Bruh.
Collin: What? Nigga, I'm just...I'm just talking to him! Ha! You said make it pretty, right? It's the bounce of it. They like the bounce of it. Like a tree on a sign, nigga, we cut right down. Paul Bunyan-ass cops, come to chop me at the knees and search the trunk in my own town. Did you count his rings when you bled him? When you dead him? Do you understand? How old was he? Nigga, how old was he?
Ex-cop: He was 26.
Twenty-six? That's how many years you decided didn't mean shit. All this talking don't mean shit. I mean, shit!

...

Collin [to the ex-cop]: The difference between me and you is...I ain't no killer. I ain't no killer.

Ex-cop [after Collin leaves the room]: I didn't mean to.
Miles: Are you sure?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

There have been 4 of them in the "modern era": Really big scandals involving the White House. Watergate [Nixon], Iran-Contra [Reagan], Whitewater-Lewinsky [Clinton] and now Putin and the Russians [Trump].

But none of them were quite as effective as Iran-Contra in exposing what many truly do construe to be a "deep state" here in America. And it basically revolves around a foreign policy embraced by both Democratic and Republican presidents bent on sustaining the needs of Wall Street. And, in particular, those banks and corporations that profit [considerably] from sustaining the military industrial complex. Intertwined in a corporate media bent on sustaining what can only really be described as a "war economy".

It's all about the bucks. About obtaining and then sustaining markets and natural resources and cheap labor. About those who own and operate the global economy from our side of the fence.

Ah, but even stuff as [at times] brutally serious as this has room for "characters". And Barry Seal can certainly be described as one of them: "the gringo that always delivers".

Then it comes down to the extent to which these "characters" have any idea at all as to what [politically and economically] lies behind the tasks that they are recruited to do by those who operate behind the curtain. At the CIA for example. For some, sure, it's just a lucrative "job"; for others, a "wild adventure".

Not everyone can be Ollie North. J.B. for example.

After all, it takes all kinds to get these deep-state "missions" accomplished.

Look for the parts where the film transfigures into a situation comedy. Also, the parts where you're thinking, "holy shit, did this stuff actually happen?!!"

Sort of.

Still, there are folks who will watch this film and continue to make the claim that American foreign policy is not entirely predicated on the interests of Wall Street and the military industrial [media] complex. That there is in fact no "deep state" calling the shots from behind the curtains. It's all about spreading "democracy" around the globe.

Even some here no doubt.

IMDb

Barry Seal looked nothing like Tom Cruise. He was a big heavy-set guy nicknamed "El Gordo" by members of the Medellin Cartel, which translates to "the fat one".

Doug Liman has described the film as "a fun lie based on a true story."

Five U.S. Presidents are characterized, mentioned or have appeared in this movie: Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

Features the Iran-Contra affair senate hearings where Arthur L. Liman, father of director Doug Liman, served as chief counsel.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3532216/tr ... tt_trv_trv
trailer: https://youtu.be/HG9lMOUtyXc

Directed by: Doug Liman

Monty [from the CIA]: Barry Seal?
Barry: That's right.
Monty: You have a drop off and pick up service here every other Thursday. Cuban exiles. They pay commercial pilots to smuggle homegrown contraband through Canadian hubs. Vancouver, Montreal. Right?
Barry: I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.
Monty: No?
Barry: No.
Monty: You're smuggling cigars.

...

Monty: Revolution's in the air, Barry. Central America, right now. We're building nations down there, Barry. We're building nations. It's America at its fucking finest. And we could use someone like you.
Barry: Goddamn. You're CIA.
Monty: Shh.

...

Barry: CIA owns this plane?
Monty: No. No. Uh, Independent Aviation Consultants.
Barry: IAC.
Monty: Yeah.
Barry: Well, what is that? What do they call them? One of them front groups? Is that...
Monty: No, no, no. It's as real as IBM. You'd run the company, but after hours, you work for us.

...

Barry [noting the cameras under the plane]: Takes pictures?
Monty: We say it "collects intelligence."
Barry: Where? Russia?
Mointy: South of the border, north of the equator. Let's just say, uh, "enemies of democracy."

Or, perhaps, enemies of Wall Street?

Barry: All of this is legal?
Monty: If you're doing it for the good guys, yeah. Just don't get caught.

...

Lucy [wife]: Okay.
Barry: Logistical support for airports.
Lucy: Okay. And you're calling it IAC? What do you know about business? You are a TWA airline pilot. That's how you support this family.
Barry: This is gonna be good for us, all right?
Lucy: What about benefits? Our healthcare? We have great healthcare with TWA.
Barry: That's...You know, I'm sure that's not gonna be a problem.
Lucy: And what the hell does IAC mean, anyway?
Barry: Independent Aviation Consultants.
Lucy: Well, that sounds fuckin' made up, Barry.
Barry: It does?

...

Barry [voiceover]: I do tend to leap before I look. Maybe, uh...Maybe I should have asked a few more questions. Anyway, it was back in '78 and, uh...It was September? October. Anyway, it, uh...That was the day I joined the CIA. Now, in those days, the Cold War was in full swing. The Soviets were backing communist insurgents all over Central America. And the CIA wanted snaps of them insurgents.

...

Barry [voiceover]: The CIA was so happy with my work, they gave me another job. Bagman. See, there was this colonel down in Panama named Noriega. And he was selling the agency's intel on all the commies down there. My job was just to drop off and pick up. Just drop off and pick up.

Remember him?
Next up: Columbia, the Medellin Cartel and the cocaine connection. We're getting closer.

Jorge Ochoa: Good luck, hermano. Christ will keep you safe.
Barry: He ain't gonna make this runway any longer.

...

Barry: See these fellas right here? I think they know that I am CIA.
Monty: You're not CIA. You're a drug smuggler, Barry. Listen. Louisiana PD was notified of your arrest here. They're gonna raid your house at 6:00 a.m. They're gonna pick up Lucy and bring her in for questioning. Maybe even keep her overnight.
Barry: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You gotta get me out of here.
Monty: Well, maybe...Maybe we could figure something out.

...

Barry [voiceover to the camera]: Okay, you can...You can stop now if you want. 'Cause, believe me, shit gets crazy from here...Do you remember them fellas that I told you I was taking snaps of? Turns out they was a bunch of commies. Called themselves Sandinistas. These fellas manage to get their shit together and take control right here in this little country called Nicaragua. Theirs is the first successful revolution in Central America. Now, that may have bee bad news for some people, but not for me. See, there was a new sheriff in town.
[cut to Reagan on the TV]
Reagan: My fellow Americans, I must speak to you tonight about a mounting danger in Central America...
Barry [voiceover]: Even after everything that happened, I...I still love Ronnie Reagan. I mean, any man that can make it from that monkey movie all the way to the White House he's gotta know what the hell he's doing. And what he wanted was to kick them commie Sandinistas out of Nicaragua. And he wanted the Nicaraguan freedom fighters, called Contras, to do it.
Reagan [on TV]: They need to know that the U.S. supports them with more than just pretty words and good wishes.
Barry [voiceover]: But Congress, well, they smelled the makings of another Vietnam, and they outright refused to let Ronnie have his war. But do you think them politicians could tell the Gipper what to do? Hell no. He turned to the CIA, and the CIA turned to me.

...

Monty: So, this is all yours. Including everything between here and your house. Almost 2,000 acres. What do you think?
Barry: I own all this? This whole airport?
Monty: Yeah. Congratulations.

...

Monty: AK-47s. Soviet-made for the PLO. The Israelis captured these and then secretly traded them to us. And you're gonna fly 'em to Nicaragua.
Barry: You didn't say nothing about guns.
Monty: It's a war, Barry. Freedom fighters can't put up much of a fight if they aren't armed. This was the deal. Or would you rather be in a Colombian prison?

...

Monty: This is every current law enforcement investigation on the Gulf Coast. FBI, ATF, DEA, Customs. These maps will help you avoid all of 'em.
Barry: Holy shit.
Monty: You'd just fly where they ain't.

...

Barry: This bag is mine?
Monty: What bag?

...

Lucy [after Barry peppers the floor with bundles of money]: Is this all legal?
Barry: All right. What I'm about to tell you, you... You...You gotta swear you can't ever tell anybody this, Lucy. All right?
[his voice drops to a whisper:
Barry: I...am...working...for...the...CIA.

...

Jorge Ochoa: Barry! Put the bat down, huevón. We're all friends here.
Barry: Jorge. What the hell are you doing here?
Ochoa: This is Don Adolfo Calero. He works for your government on the revolution to bring down the Sandinistas.
Calero: Jorge tells me you are the crazy gringo who always delivers.
Ochoa: We have a new business proposition to you, Barry. You bring your American guns to Colombia, deliver our cocaine here, to the Contras, the Contras take it by fishing boats to Miami, and everybody's happy.
Calero: It's for the war effort, Mr. Seal.

...

Barry [voiceover]: Turns out, the Contras didn't really want to fight a war. They just wanted to make money. Like the rest of us. Meanwhile, the Medellín Cartel wanted guns. So they worked out a little trade. What was I gonna tell 'em? I'm just a gring who always delivers. Here's how the operation worked. I'd load up with guns in Mena, then, using Schafer's intel I'd bypass any law enforcement and fly straight to the cartel's airstrip in Medellín. The Colombians, well, they loved them guns. And I'd load up with fresh powder and fly on to the Contra training camp. The Contras hid the coke in fishing boats and sailed it up to Miami. Meanwhile, I'd get another load of powder, take it back to the States with a quick stop to refuel in Panama under the protection of my old friend, Colonel Noriega.

You know, all in the name of democracy.

Monty [to Barry]: We need to borrow some of your land.

...

Barry [voiceover to the camera]: Them Contras were damn excited about being in the U.S. of A. And they were running away almost faster than we could bring 'em in.

...

Barry [voiceover]: I opened a few front corporations. But the money was coming in faster than I could launder it. I was taking pictures, delivering guns, dropping off and picking up. Damn, I was building an air force....I had my fingers in every pie on the rack. 10 million in Mena National, 12 million in Mena State, 15 in Mena Trust. I had 40 parked in Miami, 20 in Panama, 7 million in lawn bags, 8 in Samsonites, 4 buried in the woods behind my house, and 90 pounds of gold in my closet. Hot damn!vIf this ain't the greatest country in the world!!

...

Barry [voiceover]: We had cash flooding in from every direction. Who... Who thought that was gonna be a problem? I mean...We were running out of places to put it.

...

Gary [reading from a newspaper]: "A plane crashed in Louisiana with 200 kilos of Colombian powder." Two hundred.
Monty: Right.
Monty: I'm sorry, are you working for the fucking DEA now?

...

Barry [voiceover]: I wasn't the only one having trouble with the DEA. Pablo Escobar's gone crazy and declared war on the government. Thanks to Pablo Escobar's unique management style, the cartel found themselves kicked out of Colombia. The only place the DEA couldn't touch him? That's right. Nicaragua.

...

J.B: Jesus Christ! I'm fuckin' family. We're family!
Barry: That's right. We're family.
[Barry tosses a bag into the back seat]
J.B: What's this?
Barry: Inside's a passport, first-class ticket to Bora Bora, and enough cash...Enough cash to make a damn good life for yourself. Now, you're gonna get in that car and you're gonna drive straight to Dallas/Fort Worth airport. And nowhere else. You don't even stop to take a piss. You hear me?
J.B.: Yeah, I hear you.
Barry: Good luck, kid.

...

CIA official: In the calendar year, your operations have transported 10,500 Russian AKs to the Contras.
Monty: Yeah.
CIA official: 5,000 of which have found themselves in the hands of the Colombian cartel.
Monty: Right. But...
CIA official: Out of the 916 Contras brought into the United States to train, only half made itback to Nicaragua.
Monty: Half is...
CIA official: The other half are in the wild.

...

Barry: What's going on here?
Monty: Oh, yeah. We had to send the Contras home.
Barry: Home?
Monty: Yeah. They weren't fighting. That's the reality of that situation. You know, it didn't help that their guns were in Colombia. Did it, Barry?

...

Barry: So...What now?
Monty: We'll call ya.
Barry: Call me?
[Monty turns and walks away]
Barry: Schafer? Hey, Schafer!
Monty: Who the fuck's Schafer?

...

Monty [at the CIA]: Okay, everybody, you know the drill. Everybody gets a burn bag. Into it, you put anything with Barry Seal's face or name on it. Into the burn bag. Go! Purchase orders Aircraft invoices. Anything with the word "Mena." Fuel bills, memos, names, directives, photos. Anything like that. Anything which can link us with him, you put it in the burn bag. And what do you do with it?
Agent: Burn it.

...

Dana: You know who I am, Mr. Seal?
Barry: No, ma'am.
Dana: I'm Dana Sibota, state attorney general. You've got DEA, ATF, FBI, all wanting their pound of flesh.
Barry: Yes, ma'am. It's...It's quite a room.
Dana: Yeah. Well, you hit the trifecta, didn't you? I mean, guns, drugs, money laundering. And the state of Arkansas is gonna rip the bark right off of you, boy. We are gonna put you in a four-by-six cell for the rest of your life.
Barry: Ma'am, that's a long time.
Dana: Yeah.
Woman [on speraker phone ]: Miss Sibota, I have Governor Clinton on the line. He says it's urgent.

...

Barry [to all of the law enforcement men in the room]: I'm gonna walk out of here. I'm gonna walk out of here. And there ain't a damn thing any one of you can do about it.

Cue the irony:

Reagan [addressing the nation from the White House]: Usually, I talk with you from my office in the West Wing of the White House, but tonight, there's something special to talk about. And I've asked someone very special to join me. Nancy.
Nancy Reagan: Not long ago, I was asked by a group of children what to do if they were offered drugs. And I answered, "Just say no." Drug criminals are ingenious. So we must be smarter and stronger and tougher than they are. Say yes to your life. And when it come to drugs and alcohol, just say no.

...

Barry [voiceover]: This fella here is with the DEA. And this fella here is a colonel named Ollie North. Reagan's go-to guy. The DEA just wants to nail the Medellín Cartel once and for all. Now, at the same time, Colonel North wants to prove the commies in Central America are involved in the drug trade. Let me say that again. Colonel North wants to prove the commies are dealing drugs. And why am I in the room? 'Cause I'm the gringo who always delivers.

...

Barry: So, you want me to keep going?

...

Barry [voiceover]: They put me right back in business. Now, I'm working for the White House.

...

Barry: Listen. What's gonna happen with these photos? Who exactly is going to be looking at 'em?
Rangel: These photos are gonna be on a need-to-know basis.
Barry: Need-to-know.
Rangel: They're gonna be classified at the highest levels, Barry. We do recognize the dangers involved here.
Barry: No, you don't.
Rangel: Well, you could always tell us to fuck off and spend the next 30 years in Leavenworth.

More irony still...

Reagan [on TV addressing the nation]: There seems to be no crime to which the Sandinistas will not stoop. This is an outlaw regime. The Sandinistas have even involved themselves in the international drug trade. I know every American parent concerned about the drug problem will be outraged to learn that top Nicaraguan government officials are deeply involved in drug trafficking. This picture, secretly taken at a military airfield outside Managua shows Federico Vaughan, a top aide to one of the nine comandantes who rule Nicaragua ..loading an aircraft with illegal narcotics bound for the United States. This is an outlaw regime.
Lucy: Those motherfuckers! That's your fucking face, Barry!

...

Rangel [on phone]: I am truly sorry, Barry. North jumped the gun.
Barry: Yeah, well, you boys fucked me good.
Rangel: We all got fucked. Those photos weren't supposed to be released, and certainly not until we had the Colombians in custody.
Barry: Yeah, well, they ain't gonna be coming for you.

...

Dana [in court]: How can we have a war on drugs when the biggest enemy of the state is being protected by our side?
Barry [voiceover]: And that lady prosecutor she never, ever did give up.

But the fix is in...

Judge: Defendant will rise. Barry Seal.
Judge: You are sentenced to 1,000 hours community service. Dismissed.

...

Reporter [on TV]: Authorities believe last night's machine gun killing of Barry Seal was ordered by drug bosses in Medellín, Colombia.

...

Monty [at the CIA]: Iran. We get the Iranians to arm the Contras....

For that part go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Contra_affair#Arms_sales_to_Iran

Reporter: Mr. President, what do you know about money going to the Contras?
Reagan: All I know is this is gonna taste wonderful and I'm looking forward to tomorrow.
Reporter: Vice President Bush, did you know about the Contra aid or not, sir?
Bush: Want some sauce with that?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

American youth. How to explain them in a world that, for most, basically revolves around me, myself and I. Me, myself and I in a world that basically revolves in turn around pop culture, consumerism and celebrity.

They are then mass-produced by the thousands year after year after year.

One thing for sure is this: that the lives they live, awash in all manner of self-doubt, anxiety and insecurity, is almost never connected in films of this sort to an intelligent and systemic understanding of the political and economic forces that shape their lives. Instead, they sustain "me, myself and I" largely through "social media". The you tube, instagram and snapchat generation.

And, in particular, eight grade is crucial here because these children are right on the cusp between being just kids and becoming young adults.

On the other hand, in portraying these self-obsessed kids as they actually are, the whole point of the film might well have been to expose all of this. You tell me, but I don't think so.

For some there is no way they can watch a film like this and not weep for the future. Whatever that means.

But then there's the part that revolves around the relationship between Kayla and her father. Here there were exchanges that resonated. Having been a father myself in this "postmodern" qua "plastic" world.

Look for the "real you" being "cool".

IMDb

Speaking on Marc Maron's WTF podcast, director Bo Burnham said that technology company Apple were going to provide laptops and phones for the film for free, but they were unhappy with the scene where the iPhone broke when it got thrown. As a result, the laptops shown in the film were those belonging to the crew and the broken iPhone scene was kept in.

On the Jimmy Kimmel show director Bo Burnham reveals that after star Elsie Fisher finished filming for Eighth Grade she started her first year of high school, where she did not receive a part in her school play.

trailer: https://youtu.be/y8lFgF_IjPw

Written and directed by Bo Burnham

Kayla [making a video]: Uh, okay, so the topic of today's video is "being yourself," and it's like, you know, well, aren't I always being myself? And like, yeah. For sure. Um, but, uh... Sorry, I... I'm reading these off paper. Um, okay... But it's like, being yourself is, like, not changing yourself to impress someone else. You know, because, like, um, like, uh, you could be the most popular kid at school or, like, you know, like, um, have, like, the hottest boyfriend or whatever, um, but, like, what's the point if you're not being yourself? And it's like being yourself can be hard. And, like, the hard part about being yourself is that it's not always easy because, you know, like, people can, like, um, like, make fun of you, or something dumb. Because, like, people suck and evil people exist. Um, but you just got to ignore them and, like, not care what they're saying.

Being yourself in America? Today? Of course she doesn't touch on the parts that I do.

Woman [on a sex education video]: Over the course of these next 30 minutes, we will begin to explore and understand these changing bodies of yours. It's gonna be lit. Chapter One. The Hair Down There.

...

Mark [Dad]: Can I say one thing, though? Then you can go back to your phone, I'll leave you alone. I just want to say one thing.
Kayla: Fine!
Dad: Okay, but you have to let me finish saying it. You can't get angry before I finish saying it, otherwise you won't listen.
Kayla: Fine! Fine! Just say it.
Dad: All right. All right. Okay. Okay.
Kayla: Are you gonna say it?
Dad: I'm thinking. I think you're so cool. I think you're so...
Kayla: I'm gonna stop eating with you if you...
Dad: Look, when I as your age, I was not cool like you. You have all these interests and your videos and, just, how you express yourself in them, it's so... It's just so cool. It's so great, and I just... I just think maybe you just need to put yourself out there a little bit more.
Dad: I know the kids at school are not great. I'm not saying you have to be best friends with Kennedy Graves. And I know this is gonna sound lame, but I just think you're a really special person.
Dad: And I know it's like, you know, all dads think that. But even if I wasn't your dad, I would still think that. I would. I'm sorry.

And [no doubt] this sort of "conversation" happens all the time in any number of upper middle class communities. And how excruciating is that?

Dad: I'm actually not saying this to make you feel bad. I'm saying it to make you feel better.
Kayla: You know what'd make me feel better?
Kayla: If you'd let me go on my phone.
[the look on her father's face: priceless]

...

Kayla [making a video]: Hey, guys. Kayla back here with another video. Uh, okay, so the topic of today's video is "Putting Yourself Out There." Um, okay. So, like, what does that mean? Where is "there"? Well, "there" can be anywhere that you wouldn't usually go. You know, maybe because it's, like, weird or scary or, um, something like that. Um, okay, and now you're probably thinking, like, you know, well, "Why would I want to go somewhere like that?" And there's actually lots of reasons. Uh, one reason is that people might not know, like, the real you. Like, if you only ever see, you know, some people at school or something, then those people are only going to know the school you. But if you put yourself out there and you go to places you wouldn't usually go, people can know the movie you or the pool you or the party you or the weekend you. All the yous that make up the real you.

...

Kayla [making a video]: Okay, so the topic of today's video, which is super cool, is, "How To Be Confident." So, um... I think one thing a lot of people think about confidence is that, like, you know, you're born with it. You either are confident or you're not. You know, just like how some people are tall. You're either tall or short. But it's not like that, actually. Confidence is a choice. Like, the really awesome thing about confidence is that you can just start acting like it, even if you feel like you don't have any. For example, I used to, like, not be confident at all. But then one day, I'm like, "Hmm, I want to be confident." So, then I just kind of started acting like it, and then it made me feel good, and then I actually started being confident. Like, without trying. And, like, a big part of being confident is being brave, and you can't be brave unless you're scared. So, for those of you who are feeling scared about being confident, that's actually a big part of confidence, to be scared. That's normal. Because you can't be brave without being scared. So, go out there and just be, like, confident. And if you don't feel confident, just do it anyways. Make yourself confident.

Clearly: Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Officer Todd [at a school shooting drill]: Okay, now we're gonna talk about what you should do when the gunshots are close. You know, when the shooter's down the hallway or right outside the classroom. What you just saw was an example of what not to do. Okay? If the gunshots are loud and close, and you're in a classroom or a bathroom, uh, you should do the following. Stay put, turn off the lights...

...

Kayla: You ever think there'd be a real shooting here?
Aiden [playing a video game]: I wish.
Kayla: Why do you wish there was one?
Aiden: 'Cause I'd fuck him up. Take his gun and elbow him right in the jaw, lay him out. I wouldn't be a pussy and sit under my desk. Kayla: Yeah, you would fuck him up. He'd be, like, totally screwed.
Aiden: Yeah.

...

Kayla: I mean, I just...I was trying to open up Instagram, and then I ended up pulling up my dirty photos folder, and it was just...
Aiden [now giving her his full attention]: Really?

...

Aiden [to Kayla]: Do you give blowjobs?

...

Dr. Kat [on a video Kayla is watching]: Hi, I'm Dr. Kat, and I'm here to give you some tips for performing oral sex on him. First off, you...

...

Kayla: What? What?
Kayla: Oh, this, I was just grabbing a banana.
Dad: I thought you hated bananas.
Kayla: Uh...I don't hate them anymore.

...

Kayla [praying]: Dear God, tomorrow is...Tomorrow is a really, really important day for me, and I really need it...I really need you to make it a good day. I mean... I understand that every day can't be, like, a great day, um...But I really need tomorrow to be a good one. I mean, even if you give me a ton of, like, really bad days in the future or something, um, just as long as tomorrow can be a really good day. All right, uh...That's all. Thank you. Love, Kayla.

Tomorrow? Tomorrow is High School Shadfow day.

Olivia [Kayla's high school "shadow" on the phone]: I don't know if you're around or allowed or whatever, but me and some friends are heading to the mall to just, like, hang, if you feel like you wanna come.
Kayla: Oh, my gosh, yes.
Kayla: Oh, okay. Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Awesome. Great. Okay.

American youth!

Trevor: Are you bored, Kayla? You look bored.
Kayla: I'm not bored.
Olivia: Trev. Stop. You don't have to answer.
Trevor: What? No. I'm not judging her. It's fine. We're boring her. She's a different generation than us.
Olivia: She's not a different generation.
Trevor: Yes, she is.
Olivia: She's four years younger than us.
Trevor: Okay, but people who were, like, four years older than us felt, like, fucking 50 years old!

...

Trevor: Okay, but, like, on top of that, she didn't have Twitter in middle school, and we did. That made us different.
Olivia: Kayla, you're not different than us.
Trevor: Yeah...When did you get Snapchat? What grade?
Trevor: Fifth grade? What? No, see!

Next up: Truth or dare?

...

Kayla [making a video]: Hey, guys. It's Kayla, back with another video. Um... So... I'm making this video to just kind of say that I'm not gonna be making videos anymore. Or, you know, I'm taking a break or something. Um... And I don't... I don't know if anyone is, like, really watching or cares, um...But if you are, sorry if this is, like, a bummer to you. Um...But...It's the right thing to do, um... I started making videos, you know, to, like, give tips and stuff. And, you know, help you guys out, but...I don't know. If I'm being really honest, I'm probably not, like, the best person to give advice because I like, you know, I like giving advice and, like, and talking about doing stuff, but I can't really actually do that stuff. Um... And... Yeah. And... I don't know. It's just, like... Um... I'm really, like nervous all the time, and...I...Like, I could be doing nothing, and I'm just nervous. It's like, um...It's like I could...I'm waiting in line for, like, a roller coaster, and that stupid, like, butterflies-in-your-stomach feeling you get, like...I get that all the time, and then I never get the feeling of after you ride the roller coaster, and I...I try really hard not to feel that way, um... But...I don't know. I just can't... Um...So, I think if you guys are going through, like, tough times and stuff, um, you deserve someone who can go through tough times and make themselves feel better with their advice, and actually do the stuff they talk about. You know, just... If they can make themselves feel better, then maybe they can help you feel better. Um... So, yeah, I think those are the reasons why I'm gonna stop making videos, um...And, yeah. I hope you guys all have, like, you know, good lives, and maybe I'll see you guys around. Bye.

...

Kayla: Can you help me burn something in the backyard?
Dad: Yes. You sure you want to do this?
Kayla: Yeah.
Dad; I'm not exactly sure what "this" is... Or means... I just hope that whatever we're doing here is a positive thing?
Kayla: Yeah.

...

Kayla: Nothing, really. Um...Just sort of my hopes and dreams.
Dad: Right. And you're burning them?
Kayla: Yeah.

...

Kayla: Do I make you sad?
Dad: What? No. No, not at all. Not at all. Why? Do I seem sad? No.

...

...

Kayla [making a video for herself when she graduates from high school]: Middle school wasn't so great for me, but I'm past it now. And I'm moving forward, and you can do that too with high school if it didn't go great. Just because things are happening to you right now doesn't mean that they're always gonna happen to you. And things will change. And...You know, you never know what's gonna, like, happen next, and that's what makes things exciting and scary.

You know, contingency, chance and change.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

Think Larry Clark's Kids on skateboards. All of them.

But when you think of skateboarders in films you think of dudes. Dudes like these: https://youtu.be/ZkMDs3FXVzg

Or the dudes in Little Children.

They're almost always boys. White boys.

They're almost never black. And they are certainly not going to be a female "subculture" that includes black girls.

But that was then. Now we've got a film in which the skateboarders are in fact girls. And most are girls of color.

Is it based on a true story though? Yes, it seems to be.

From the director of The Wolfpack -- viewtopic.php?f=24&t=179469&p=2583379&hilit=wolfpack+directed#p2583379 -- the film follows these girls as they tote their skateboards into and out of contexts that allow us to explore any number of political narratives relating to race and gender and sexual orientation and class. And in the belly of the beast: New York City.

And then the age old story of an alienated suburban teen who commutes from home in order to "find herself" in the Big City. It could one of hundreds of "sub-cultures" that abound in the urban jungle. And, if they are lucky, they find one that allows them to sink new roots. "Me", "myself" and "I" reconfiguring into "we" "ourselves" and "ours". That crucial foundation in which to establish an identity, a meaningful life. It's not what you belong to so much as that you belong to something.

But: Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you stay and thrive in the city and sometimes things get all fucked up and you go back home. Still, every once in a while it can be both.

And then the part where skateboarding can be dangerous. And no one needs to skateboard. But you do it anyway because you want to. And then suddenly the center of the universe seems to revolve around proving to others that you are one of them: among the best skateboarders in the world. Or at least in the hood.

"I" is hooked!

IMDb

The only actor who required a skating double was Jaden Smith.

Director Crystal Moselle first saw two members of Skate Kitchen whilst riding the train. It was here that she approached them to star in a short film with Italian fashion label 'Miu Miu'. After the success of that short, she decided to pursue a feature film starring them.

at wiki: none
trailer: https://youtu.be/iT1izrIxoos

Skate Kitchen [2018]
Written in part and directed by Crystal Moselle

Boy [to Camille skateboarding]: Go for it.
Boy: Just do it.
Camille [after going for it]: Fuck. Fuck, fuck, fuck!
[a "credit card" cut]

...

Renata [mother]: No more skating. Promise me. I weant you to promise me.
Camille: Mom. No! What are you talking about?
Renata: You know what? It could have been worse. Maybe you won't be able to have kids next time.
Camille: All right, fine. All right. I promise.

...

Kurt: Janay, Janay, Janay, Janay. That girl just fingered me in the bushes, bro.
Janay: Oh, my gosh! What is wrong with you.
Kurt: She just put her fingers in my pussy.
Janay: Not right now!
Kurt: Come on, give me a dab.
Janay: No. This is Camille.

...

Camille [to the girls but mostly to herself]: For a while I was feeling really lonely and... it's like...that loneliness you...you have...even if you're in a crowded room with people smiling and laughing and...that emptiness, I was just feeling it for so long. But um...I don't feel it anymore.

Then we segue into a segment straight from Kids in which the girls go into depth about tampons and their vaginas.

Camille: I had to go to the gynecologist not too long ago myself.
Indigo: Word?
Camille: I was skating at this park in Long Island and I was hitting this set. But something happened and the board just...I just messed up and I ended up sitting on the board and it cut me down there.
Indigo: You got credit carded?
Camille: I was just pouring blood.
Kurt: Dude, that's so scary. That's like the scariest thing ever. I've always feared that. Like you're really tough for that. Like, that's crazy.
Camille: Everyone thought it was my period. All the boys were like...
Janay: Oh, my God.
Kurt: Yo, boys are just...uneducated sometimes. I'm sorry. Not all boys, but some boys.

...

Janay: No, seriously, come on. Answer the question. Like, what's your type?
Camille: Why do you guys wanna know? I don't know, I just...
Kurt: Dude, it's a simple question, do you like dick or pussy?
Camille: I like...
Kurt: Do you like sucking dick or eating pussy?

...

Renata [to Camille]: You were skating. You gave me your word.

...

Camille: Yeah.

...

Janay: Is your mom always like that?
Camille: I don't know, I mean... I've only been living with her for like five years, so...
Janay: Why?
Camille: She's whatever. Like... hard to be around sometimes. So, when the courts asked who I wanted to live with, I chose my dad. Once a year, I was supposed to see her during Christmas to, you know, exchange me. But every time we would go, I would just sit in the car and I'd see her through the glass, sitting, waiting for me. But I just couldn't get out. I'd... I would just sit there and my dad would have to go in and be like, "Oh, Camille doesn't want to see you." And so, we'd just leave.

...

Camille: Once I turned 11, I started, like...changing, physically. I used to stand in front of the mirror and punch myself in the chest because I didn't...I didn't want to grow breasts. It was horrifying 'cause I was always, you know, dressing in boys' clothes and...playing football, and hanging out with my dad. And when I noticed that I wasn't going to be like that forever and that I was growing up, it was super embarrassing because he didn't because he didn't...he didn't notice, he didn't understand. Uh...So, one year, that year, I...on Christmas, I decided, like, I needed to see her. I needed to go. It's not even like I wanted to. I needed a mother. But I went and...I just started spending more time with her. Eventually, after a couple of weeks, I felt like maybe I should stay with her, start living there and...Uh, my dad was just super jealous. He didn't think that I'd ever leave him. And I wasn't trying to leave him but... I didn't wanna leave him, I just...He just wasn't...Now we don't talk anymore and... and I feel so bad because I didn't want him to feel like I didn't want him anymore. It's just I... needed a mom at that time, and, like...

Of course everryone has their own version of this. The actual experiences that shape our lives in ways that others can only understand up to a point.

Kurt: Skate or die bitch.

...

Camille: Bam. That's it.
Janay: Oh, shit. Like, if you don't care about getting...You just go for it. I don't know. I feel like the best...like, a lot of good skaters, they like do not think....you can't think, that's the thing.
Camille: And us girls, we think too much.

...

Janay [watching a video of skateboarders doing spectacular stunts]:That's like by Bryant Park.
Camille: You guys haven't taken me there. We should go.
Janay: I think that might be a little much.
Camille: What do you mean?
Janay: I mean, I just don't think all of the girls would wanna do that.
Camille: But you wanna stand out, right?
Janay: Yeah, I want us all to stand out, like I wanna...
Camille: So then we should just go hard.

...

Janay: I don't know what I'm gonna do if I can't skate anymore. Like, that's my whole life. Like, you know that, that's all I do.
Camille: Come on, you're... you're gonna be able to skate soon and, Janay, skating isn't your whole life. You're still you with or without your board, okay?
Janay: Why do you sound like Devon? Oh, my God. He used to say, like, deep shit like that, like, all spiritual and stuff and I'm just like... It's not... it's not you.

...

Camille; What's wrong?
Devon: I like you so much, Camille...just...just not like this.
Camille: Not like what? What are you...
Devon: It's...It's like you're... you're like a little sister to me, you know? It's like you're one of us. And I don't wanna...I mean, I just figure we have a different type of... You know, I thought... I thought we got along so well and...No, like, 100%. But, like, I just don't wanna mess that up.
Camille: Okay. Okay.
Devon: You know?
Camille: Yeah.
[Camille turns on her side, the irony of it all etched into her face]

...

Renata [to Camille, after she returns home]: What did they do? What did they do to you, Honey?

...

Renata: Your friends in the city...are you going to meet up with them?
Camille: We're not friends anymore?
Renata: Why?
Camille: I messed up.
Renata: You could apologize.
Camille: It's complicated.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

Crazy rich Asians. How are they the same or different from crazy rich Europeans? Or crazy rich Americans? Or anyone else who happens to be both crazy and rich.

Or...Hollywood? Turn it all into a "romantic comedy"? With just enough of the "real world" sprinkled in so that most of us will be able to recognize ourselves in it?

Of course it goes without saying that in addition to be being crazy and rich, the Asians depicted in this film are beautiful. And cultured. And sophisticated. On the other hand, why this goes without saying is surely one of those questions that go all the way down to the profound mystery embedded in why anything is what it is at all.

And then the part where Asians born and bred in the "new world" are transported back to the "old world". Or, rather, the new old world. The money talks world that is never really delved into at all. It just is what it is. Some are obscenely rich and others barely manage to subsist at all. The part where the "modern world" either subsumes the old traditions, obliterates them, or encounters those who fight tooth and nail to preserve the past. Though always in sync with the global economy.

Anyway, the lesson learned is that while money is not nothing in this impregnable world economy, it is still considerbly less than that which matters most. Whatever that happens to be for any particular one of us. Though, in particulkar, self-respect and integrity.

As for this...

In the book, one of Goh's three dogs is named after Donald Trump. In the film, the name is changed to Rockefeller.

....make of it what you wish.

As for Singapore, many here probably still associate it with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

At least that's the first thing that popped into my head.

IMDb

Netflix wanted to produce the film and offered a much bigger budget, but Kevin Kwan deliberately turned down the offer in favor of a modest $30-million budget from Warner Bros. This was done to send a message that Asian-American studio movies are commercially viable. Crazy Rich Asians 2 has been confirmed; it will be based on the second book of the trilogy, "China Rich Girlfriend". Singaporeans gave this movie a tepid reception, criticizing it for its lack of diversity and lack of authenticity, and missing involvement with Southeast Asians and other minorities in Singapore. Kevin Kwan, the author of the book on which the movie is based, has been charged with draft dodging in his native Singapore. He is liable to a fine of up to$10,000 and/or imprisonment of up to 3 years upon conviction.

Although the film received praise in the United States for its casting, which made "history for Asian American representation"; it was criticized elsewhere for not exclusively using actors of Chinese descent, in ethnically Chinese roles. This film was also criticized for using British and American English over Singaporean English. In addition, the film received criticism for poorly representing the actual makeup of Singapore, virtually erasing non-Chinese citizens.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3104988/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Rich_Asians_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/ZQ-YX-5bAs0

Crazy Rich Asians [2018]
Directed by Jon M. Chu

Rachel: You want to get pork buns in the East Village. That's what it is, isn't it
Nick: I was actually thinking of further east.
Rachel: Like Queens?
Nick: Like Singapore for spring break.

...

Eleanor [Nick's mother reading aloud]: "If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth."

...

...

Mother: You can't wear that to meet Nick's. Blue and white is for Chinese funerals. Now this, this symbolizes good fortune and fertility.
Rachel: Great! I was really going for that lucky baby-maker vibe.
Mother: Hey, you were the one who asked for my help picking out a dress to meet Nick's family.
Rachel: It's only 'cause I hardly know anything about them. Every time I bring them up, Nick changes the subject.
Mother: Maybe he's embarrassed. Maybe his parents are poor and he has to send them money. That's what all good Chinese children do.

...

Rachel: I mean, his parents can't not like me, right? What was that look? I saw that.
Mother: Nothing. It's just Nick bringing a girl all the way there to meet them can mean a lot to these overseas families. They're different from us.
Rachel: How are they different? They're Chinese, I'm Chinese. I'm so Chinese, I'm an economics professor with lactose intolerance.
Mother: Yeah, but you grew up here. Your face is Chinese. You speak Chinese. But here [pointing to her head], and here [pointing to her heart]...you're different.

...

Attendant: Good afternoon, Mr. Young, Miss Chu. We'll take your bags and get you checked into first class.
Nick: Great.
Raachel: Oh...No, there's a mistake. We're not first class. We're economy people.

...

Rachel: So, your family is like...rich?
Nick: Um, we're comfortable.
Rachel: That is exactly what a super rich person would say.

...

Nick [to Rachel now in Singapore]: Each of these local stalls sells pretty much one dish and they've been perfecting it for generations. You know this is one of the only places in the world where street food vendors actually earned Michelin stars.

...

Michael: I wouldn't dream of missing a second with your family and their friends.
Astrid: Well, it won't be all bad. Nick and his new girlfriend will be there. You'll like her.
Michael: Oh, yeah? Why? Because she's a commoner like me?

...

Child: A pa, can we go trampoline?
Mr. Goh: Uh, you haven't finished your nuggets yet, sweetie. Okay, there's a lot of children starving in America. Right?

Ha Ha?

Mr. Goh [to Rachel]: Let me get this straight. You both went to the same school. Yet someone came back with a degree that's useful. And the other one came back as Asian Ellen.

...

Peik Lin: Rachel, these people aren't just rich. Okay? They're crazy rich. Look. There's new money all over Asia. You got the Beijing billionaires, the Taiwan tycoons...but the Young family, they're old-money rich. They had money when they left China in the 1800s. And they went all the way down here. Not there...here. They came to Singapore when there was nothing but jungle and pig farmers. And there was a snake here eating an apple. You know what I mean? And they built all of this. Now, they're the landlords of the most expensive city in the world. These people are so posh and snobby...they're snoshy.
Rachel: Yeah, but Nick's not like that.
Peik Lin: Even if he isn't, I guarantee you, the family is.

...

Rachel: You have a cocktail dress in your trunk?
Peik Lin: I'm not an animal, Rachel.

...

Rachel: My mom didn't even go to college. She actually hardly spoke any English when she immigrated to the United States. But she worked really hard. And she studied and she earned her real estate license while she was waiting tables, supporting us. Now, she likes to say that she's Flushing's top real estate broker.
Eleanor: A self-made woman. She must be so proud of you.
Rachael: Well, she knows that I'm passionate about what I do, and she's always wanted that for me.
Eleanor: Pursuing one's passions. How American. Well, you mother's very open-minded. Not like here, where parents are obsessed with shaping the lives of their children.

...

Edison: So you're not from the Taiwan Chu family?
Rachel: Nope.
Edison: Hong Kong Telecom Chus?
Rachel: No.
Edison: Malaysian packing peanut Chus?
Rachel: Is that really a thing?
Edison: Yeah, it's everywhere...
Nick: I'm gonna stop you there. because I'm gonna take her on the rounds. We'll be back.
Edison: No, wait, hang on! China instant noodle Chus? Rachel...Chu are you?

...

Araminta: Welcome to paradise. This is Samsara Island. This weekend is about sisterhood and connecting with the divine in all of us. So, I hope you'll all find your bliss...starting with...an all-paid shopping spree at the fashion boutique!

...

Colin: Dude, ever since primary school, you were always going to be the next chairman of the Young Corporation, your family's shining heir. You really think your family's gonna accept anything less than that? I mean, unless you... No. Are you thinking of walking out? Leaving everything to bloody Alistair and Eddie?
Nick: I'm not walking out on anything. I met a girl, I fell in love, and I want to marry her. It can't just be one thing or the other.
Colin: Uh, no, no, no, no. It's not that simple. You know that.

And this is basically the film's plot.

Rachel: Why would Araminta even have friends like that? It's just mean.
Astrid: Well, you grow up your whole lives together, you make excuses for people. Especially the morons.

...

Rachel: I thought I was here to meet your family... go to your best friend's wedding... eat some good food. Instead, I feel like I'm a villain in a soap opera who's plotting to steal your family fortune.
Nick: What happened?

...

Eleanor: Ah Ma says if we don't pass traditions down like this, they'll disappear. God forbid we lose the ancient Chinese tradition of guilting your children.

...

Eleanoir [to Rachel]: I withdrew from university when we got married. I chose to help my husband run a business, and to raise a family. For me, it was a privilege. But for you, you may think it's old-fashioned. It's nice you appreciate this house, and us being here together wrapping dumplings. But all this doesn't just happen. It's because we know to put family first instead of chasing one's passion.

...

Eleanor: Ah Ma thought I would not make an adequate wife to her son.
Rachel: But she came around, obviously.
Eleranor: It took many years. And she had good reason to be concerned. Because I had no idea of the work and the sacrifice it would take. There were many days when I wondered if I would ever measure up. But having been through it all, I know this much: You will never be enough.

...

Nick: I know my mum can be tough at times, but there isn't anything she wouldn't do for me. And there is a reason why I lived with Ah Ma growing up. It's because my mother knew she wasn't the favorite. So she let her raise me so I would be.
Rachel: You were just a kid?
Nick: Yeah. Well...It's hard to understand from the outside. But she did what she thought was best for the family. For everyone involved.

...

Peik Lin: Was she like... "You will never be good enough for my son." Or was it like, "You... You... will never be good enough for my son."
Rachel: It's like the second one.
Peik Lin: You know, I bet if you told her you'd leave Nick for like, a million dollars, she would write that check. They do that around here.

...

Rachel: I don't even know what I should do. I mean, I can't even tell Nick because he like, worships her.
Peik Lin: Yeah. Chinese sons think their moms fart Chanel No. 5.

...

Peik Lin: Okay, here's what you need to understand, all right? It's not about getting Eleanor to like you. It's about getting her to respect you. All right? Right now, she just thinks you're some like, undeserving, clueless, gold-digging, trashy, unrefined banana. Yellow on the outside, and white on the inside.
Rachelk: I know what a banana is.
Peik Lin: When in reality, you're like a super sophisticated, smart professor of freaking game theory.

...

Rachel: Princess Intan. Rachel Chu. I read your great article about micro loans in the Asian Economics Journal.
Rachel: Well, you know what? I think your critics missed the point. Because your micro loans help women. And women lift up economies.

This passes for "substance" here. But it's just another plot device.

Colin: Hey, man, Rachel's not sitting with your family.
Nick: Yeah. I don't blame her. Mother hasn't exactly been the most welcoming. But I'm sure she'll be out back somewhere, laying low.
Colin: Mm, she's right at the front. Take a look.
[Nick sees Rachal conversing with Princess Intan]
Colin: I think you've got a fighter.

...

Ah Ma: Rachel. I've only know you a short time, but it's clear you're a very smart woman. But, I will not permit you to ruin my grandson with your ambition.
Nick: Ah Ma!
Eleanor: I'm sorry to tell you, but Rachel has been lying to us about her family and her mother.
Rachel: What-What are you talking about?
Eleanor: I hired a private investigator...
Nick: Mom, you didn't.
Eleanor: ...to look into her past. She said her father passed away - in China. But that's not true. Your mother's husband is very much alive. During her marriage, she cheated on him and became pregnant with another man's child. And before he found out, she ran away to America.
[she hands Nick some papers]
Eleanor: It's all in here.
Nick: You did not!
Rachel: You're lying.
Eleanor: Do you have any idea the scandal this would have caused? For Rachel to hide something like this?
Nick: She wouldn't have.
Eleanor: We cannot be linked to this sort of family.
Rachel [turning to leave]: I don't want any part of your family.

...

Rachel: Why didn't you tell me about my father?
Mother: My husband wasn't a good man. He hurt me. But an old schoolmate of mine helped me through things. And we fell in love. And I got pregnant with his baby. That's you. I was so afraid my husband would find out and kill us both, so I just took you and I ran to America.

...

Nick: I'm so sorry about everything. What my mother did to you is unforgivable.
Nick: It is. Ever since I can remember, my family has been my whole life. And I am done making excuses for them. Marry me. Marry me and we'll start a new life together in New York. Just you and me. I'll leave all of this behind.

...

Rachel: I know Nick told you the truth about my mom. But you didn't like me the second I got here. Why is that?
Eleanor: There is a Hokkien phrase, "Gar gee nang". It means, our own kind of people. And you're not our own kind.
Rachel: Because I'm not rich? 'Cause I didn't go to a British boarding school, or I wasn't born into a wealthy family?
Eleanor: You're a foreigner. American. And all Americans think about is their own happiness.
Rachel: Don't you want Nick to be happy?
Eleanor: It's an illusion. We understand how to build things that last. Something you know nothing about.
Rachel: You don't know me.
Eleanor: I know you're not what Nick needs.
Rachel: Well, he proposed to me yesterday. He said he'd walk away from his family and from you for good. Don't worry, I turned him down.
Eleanor: Only a fool folds a winning hand.
Rachel: There's no winning. You made sure of that. Because if Nick chose me, he would lose his family. And if he chose his family, he might spend the rest of his life resenting you.
Eleanor: So you chose for him.

...

Rachel: I'm not leaving 'cause I'm scared. Or because I think I'm not enough. Because maybe for the first time in my life...I know I am. I just love Nick so much. I don't want him to lose his mom again. So, I just wanted you to know that one day, when he marries another lucky girl who is enough for you...and you're playing with your grandkids while the tan huas are blooming and the birds are chirping...that it was because of me...a poor, raised-by-a-single-mother, low-class, immigrant nobody.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

Imagine it: It's your accomplishment, but someone else is able to take all the credit. And that someone is your own husband. And it's decades before the feminist movement is around to encourage you to do something about it.

Or to even suggest that you should do something about it.

Let's face it, there is being a woman here and now, and being a woman there and then. The part where one's "historical and cultural context" can make all the difference in the world.

Yet here was a woman thrust into the world of "avant-garde" libertines. The world in which the iconclasts reigned. The world hell-bent on "revolutionizing literature, fashion and sexual expression".

But even among them there were lines to be drawn around gender. And sometimes that worked in her favor...and sometimes it did not. The irony then being that only as a result of her husband bringing her into this world would a story such as this even exist at all.

Of course there will always be the gap between the story that unfolds up on the screen and the actual reality of the times and the characters being portrayed. Not to mention all of the things that you bring into it as well. Political prejudices for example. As one IMDb reviewer noted, "after I thought I was watching a movie that was historically accurate, the director says that he had changed several characters and other aspects to make them more contemporary --- meaning: what he thinks the way things ought to have been 100+ years ago, vs reality."

In particular, I suspect, the part played by Missy.

IMDb

According to Keira Knightley, it was illegal for women to wear men's clothing in that time period in France.

The location shoot in Budapest was so warm at times, Dominic West wore a water vest inside his heavy costume that functioned like a car radiator, circulating cool water around his upper body. The contraption was recommended to him by John C. Reilly who used such an apparatus while playing the rotund Oliver Hardy in the biopic Stan & Ollie.

The actual author, Colette, wrote the novella "Gigi" which served as the basis for the stage production and film of the same name.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colette_(2018_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/Mqdyyk-iOvY

Colette [2018]
Written in part and directed by Wash Westmoreland

Gabrielle Colette's Father: And how is Paris these days, Willy?
Willy: It's a hotbed. It's electric. It's heaving with artists and poets and writers, all seeking to say something profound. Most of them are too young, of course, or too crazed, but still, they generate a certain life force.

...

Father: We were going in to see a play, weren't we?
Mother: Yes, La Tosca.
Willy: I...I was at the opening. I wouldn't bother, to be frank. I mean, Sarah Bernhardt does her best. She always does. But it's melodramatic in extremis.
Mother: Maybe I'll go, make up my own mind.
Willy: Well, of course. But do remember, if a book bores you, you can throw it away. If a painting is too garish, then you can close your eyes. But bad theater, it's like dentistry. You're compelled to stay in your chair, having your skull drilled until the entire grisly procedure is over.

...

Arman: Willy, the Eiffel's tower. Are you for or against?
Willy: Oh, I'm for it, if a little jealous of this giant erection in the heart of our capital belonging to somebody else.

...

Willy: So, what did you think of the salon?
Gabrielle: I liked the tortoise. I thought he was as bored as I was.
Willy: I suspect you were more intimidated than bored.
Gabrielle: No. I thought they were all...shallow and pretentious.
Willy: No. Come on. You're reading them wrongly. It's not so much pretension as exaggeration. The ideal is to be authentic but larger than life. To present a personality with a capital "P." You could do it too. Country girl charm.

...

Schwob: Are you writing for him too?
Gabrielle: Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle: Just letters.

...

Willy: She's not a disreputable woman. They've even written a play about her. It was a shit play, but nevertheless. Who the hell wrote that letter?
Gabrielle: I don't care who wrote it.
Willy: Look, Gabrielle, she's no rival to you. I promise. Look, I'll never sleep with her again. But you have to understand, this is what men do. We're the weaker sex. We don't have your strength. We're slave to our urges. And here in the city, it's perfectly acceptable to...
Gabrielle: Nonsense! I don't accept it. You've been lying to me all this time. I wait for you all day long and I never ask you for anything because you say we have no money.
Willy: But it's true. We have no money.
Gabrielle: Because you spend it all on her!
Willy: I really don't.
Gabrielle: And then...And then, when you get into bed and I touch you, and I kiss you, and you say you're too tired...
Willy: No, no. I've been unattentive. I'm sorry. I'll make amends.
Gabrielle: Don't you dare touch me!!
[she storms away from him]
Willy: Gabrielle, I... I gave up my inheritance for you! My bloody freedom!
Gabrielle: Go to hell!

...

Mother: What is it, my love?
Gabrielle: It's just...nothing is how I imagined it.
Mother: Oh. Come here. My little kitten. No one can take away who you are. No one. You're too strong for that. You always have been. Just trust no one but yourself.
Gabrielle: I know.
Mother: So what's he done to upset you?
Gabrielle: Nothing. Nothing. It's just new, that's all. I must get used to marriage.
Mother: Better to make marriage get used to you.

...

Willy: Well, life is awful without you. It's just dead. I... I don't feel like myself at all. Everything just seems utterly pointless. Can't even write anymore. You mean more to me than all the women of Paris put together.
Gabrielle: Have you sampled them all?
Gabrielle: You're very happy to mock everybody else.
Willy: It's true, but it's just...Look, it's just horseshit. Words are deceptive little bastards. But if you trace mine to their source, to my bruised and aching heart...
Gabrielle: Well, I wouldn't credit that as the organ of origin.

...

Gabrielle: I can read you like the top line of an optician's chart.
Willy: That's brilliant. Did you just make that up?

...

Willy: Just tell me what you want, Gabrielle. I'll do anything.
Gabrielle: I know who you are, Willy. Maybe I knew it all along. But I want you not to lie to me.
Willy: I won't. Never again. I promise.
Gabrielle: I want to be part of things. I don't want to be treated like some little wife at home. I want to know what's going on.
Willy: You will. You'll be part of everything.
Gabrielle: Do you promise?
Willy: Promise.

...

Willy: You. You could write. Those stories you told me of Saint-Sauveur last year.
Gabrielle: My school stories?
Willy: Yes. That could be Willy's next novel. Well, try it anyway, but try it now. Start immediately. Aim for four hours at a time. The wolves are at the door!

...

Gabrielle [writting her novel]: "My name is Claudine. I live in Montigny. I was born there in 1873. I shall probably not die there."

...

Willy: Did you manage four hours?
Gabrielle: Twice that, at least.
Willy: You didn't. You must be a natural.
Gabrielle: I've changed a few things...for the story. I think it might ruffle a few feathers back home.
Willy: Oh, don't worry about the facts. You can change events, add a character. Just adapt it to the times. All people really want is the feeling, the emotion, the great sweep of narrative.
Gabrielle: So you mean I can write whatever I want?
Willy: Of course. No one will dispute it. And if they do, "It's the hand that holds the pen that writes history."

...

Willy [after reading Gabrielle's novel]: It's a truly wonderful depiction.
Gabrielle: And?
Willy: And...we won't be able to get it published. That's the shame of it.
Gabrielle: What's wrong with it?
Willy: Honestly? So I'll treat you like any other writer I'm giving a report to, shall I?
Gabrielle: Yes.
Willy: Except that I love you. I adore you. Should be clear about that.
Gabrielle: Just... Just say it.
Willy: There's nothing driving it. There's no plot. A novel by Willy grips you from chapter one, whereas yours...There's too many adjectives. And some of the characters are interesting, but...it's too cloying. It's too feminine.
Gabrielle: Well, that was a waste of bloody time.
Willy: Not if you enjoyed it.
Gabrielle: I wrote it for you!

...

Willy: Quoting the good book, Gaston? You may remember a little verse about coveting other men's wives.

...

Willy: Gaston's first play was absolute rubbish, but his mother runs a salon, so, of course, it was a huge success and he was praised to the skies for his brilliant writing and his sublime talent. Unctuous prick. He was after you.
Gabrielle: He's not my type, and they just got married.
Willy: Yeah, well, they're no longer on honeymoon, I assure you, my dear.
Willy: How so?
Gabrielle: It was the wife I found interesting.

...

Gabrielle: A little louche.
Willy: Louche sells, trust me. We need more spice, less literature. I know what men want. So do the publishers.

...

Schwob: All of Paris is saying your husband is a genius.
Gabrielle: And what do you say?
Schowb: He is. If that book is anything to go by.
Gabrielle: Look at him. I haven't seen him that happy in a long time.

...

Publisher: I believe Willy based Claudine in part on your school days.
Gabrielle: Yes, I think I had a little something to contribute.

...

Gabrielle: Is something wrong?
Willy: Well, wh-what do you think is wrong? Finally we have a success, and then you imply that I'm not the true author of it.
Gabrielle: No, I didn't.
Willy: We're holding dynamite here. We've created something really powerful, and if it goes off at the wrong time, then it could blow our bloody heads off.
Gabrielle: Ollendorff is your publisher, Willy.
Willy: Yeah, well, Schwob also said something.
Gabrielle: Schwob is part of the factory.
Willy: People love to talk. They praise you to your face. Then the moment you turn around there's knives in your back. I understand the mentality here. You don't.
Gabrielle: Well, I understand it well enough to write a book that's the toast of Paris.

...

Willy: I don't know why you're so keen on nature. Animals are vile to each other.
Gabrielle: Animals are honest at least. They never lie.
Willy: Yes, my dear. Well, that's because they don't speak.

...

Willy: But don't you think she's being hypocritical? I mean, it's acceptable for Claudine to sleep with Rezi, but she doesn't want Renaud to do the same.
Gabrielle: Not behind her back, no. The betrayal came when Renaud lied to her. Renaud, who swore he would always be honest.
Willy: Well, perhaps he wanted to tell her, but he was...frightened of her volcanic jealousy.
Gabrielle: Well, then, he was a coward as well as a liar.
Willy: You're very harsh on him.
Gabrielle: If not me, who else? And Renaud would never be jealous if, for example, Claudine went off with a young man for a change.
Willy: He would find that unacceptable.
Gabrielle: Oh. Infidelity for Renaud is a matter of gender?
Willy: Yes, it is.

...

Willy: How long have you known?
Willy: Well, I must say, I'm impressed by the way you've handled yourself. A younger Claudine would have thrown a fit.
Gabrielle: I'm planning on killing Renaud off in the next one.
Willy: What? No, you can't. No, please, don't.
Gabrielle: "The hand that holds the pen writes history."

...

Georgie: I know that you have no time for me since our separation, and I know I behaved badly. But I'm begging you. Ask Willy to change it before publication. Please, Colette. One woman to another.
Gabrielle: I can't.
Georgie: You'd let me suffer? I
Gabrielle: It isn't just Willy, Georgie. It... It's... It's the book itself. Willy thinks it's a work of art.
Georgie: You had your chance to be decent, but now it will be left to my husband to settle it. Ollendorff has agreed to a lump sum for the destruction of the entire print run.
Gabrielle: What? You can't do that.
Gabrielle: That sly bastard. You can't. You just can't.
Georgie: Well, we have, and that's how it is.
Gabrielle: You duplicitous bitch.
Georgie: I had a good teacher.

...

Willy: The thing is, Ollendorff signed the deal, but he neglected to mention that he does not own the copyright. Because I do. So it was simply a question of trotting along to the next publisher, collecting a second advance, and the printing presses are hard at work as we speak.

...

Missy: It seems Claudines are everywhere these days.
Gabrielle: Yes. There's even been a Claudine murderess in Marseilles. She slit her husband's throat.
Missy: Good for her. But seriously, you've done something important. You've invented a type.
Gabrielle: Willy has, you mean.
Missy: I mean you have. All those young girls between girlhood and womanhood, you've given them a voice. You should own up to it.
Gabrielle: Somebody told you?
Missy: I didn't need to be told. Meeting you is enough.
Gabrielle: It's true. I wrote them.

...

Gabrielle: What do you think of Missy?
Willy: She's very pleasant. But she perplexes me. I'm...Words are either masculine or feminine, but there's no...there's no word for Missy.
Gabrielle: Oh, I could think of one or two.

...

Gabrielle: It must have been very hard for you. Putting on trousers, I mean.
Missy: No. It was entirely natural. I was a rather awkward child, if you can imagine me in pigtails and a dress. I never felt like I belonged, and then one day I tried on my brother's school uniform, and that was it. I knew I was home for the first time. I've come a long way since then. Of course, it's far easier for me than for a woman of no means, but I wanted to show that it can be done. What about you?
Gabrielle: What about me? Well, I dress as a man. Willy dresses you as a schoolgirl.

...

Gabrielle: Willy is demanding, yes, but...he also gives me a lot of freedom.
Missy: It is a long leash he keeps you on, but it's a leash nevertheless. And perhaps you enjoy that.
Gabrielle: Do you think that's terribly wrong?
Gabrielle: But what?
Missy: I wonder if there will come a time...when you must decide, are you Claudine or are you Colette?

...

Gabrielle: You know the new Claudine book?
Willy: Yes.
Gabrielle: Why don't we publish it under both our names?

...

Gabrielle: I need my name on the book.
Willy: No. Willy is a brand. And, in any case, women writers don't sell.
Gabrielle: You bastard. You fat, smug, lazy, selfish bastard.
Willy: This is utter nonsense. If you felt so strongly, you should never have agreed to it all.
Gabrielle: Goddamn you, Willy.
Willy: Without the progenitor, there would be no Claudine.

Next up: The kiss.

Willy: I saw our creditors yesterday. It's horrific. We lost everything at the Moulin Rouge.
Gabrielle: Not today, Willy.
Willy: Colette. We need to sell the country house. We have no choice.
Gabrielle: No. No, Willy. You can't do that.
Willy: Well, morally, yes, I need your permission. But, legally, well, the house is in my name.

...

Gabrielle: I'm going on tour, Sido, with Wague, for the next six months. The contracts are being drawn up now. We're doing a new piece.
Mother: Get out of it. You have to.
Gabrielle: I'm going to do it.
Willy [entering the room]: What did I miss? Women. Knives. All very Greek.

...

Willy: Tell me something. The sole rights to the Claudines, Ollendorff. What would you give me for them?
Ollendorff: Are you serious? All of them?
Willy: Yes.
Ollendorff: The sole rights in perpetuity?
Willy: Make me an offer.

...

Gabrielle: What are we doing, Willy?
Willy: Are we finished?
Gabrielle: I don't know.
Willy: You can't.
Gabrielle: Why can't I?
Willy: Because I love you. Because you're the only woman I could ever love. And because you're at your most brilliant when you're with me.
Gabrielle: Am I?
Willy: Yes. You know you are.

...

Ollendorff: I was thinking if you were free, I'd like to take you and the marquise to dinner.
Gabrielle: Thank you. I'm always up for a free feed. Especially in such august company.
Ollendorff: Mmm, it's the very least I can do for you, Colette, after all the money you've made for me. And will continue to make. I wish I'd been able to give Willy a better settlement. But one can only pay what one can afford.
Gabrielle: I'm not quite sure I understand.
Ollendorff: For the Claudines. The rights to the Claudines.
Gabrielle: Willy sold you the Claudines?
Ollendorff: Yes. All of them.
Gabrielle: He sold you the Claudines?
Ollendorff: Absolutely. I'm sorry. I thought he...
Gabrielle: How much did he get for them?

...

Gabrielle: Five thousand francs?!
Willy: Don't be melodramatic. I was trying to keep the house for you.
Gabrielle: I gave you the house.
Willy: We still owed the bank.
Gabrielle: You could have sold Veber's novels, some of your other trash. You just did it to stick the knife in me. Didn't you? Didn't you?
Willy: I wouldn't have got anything for Veber's, or Schwob's, or anyone else's. Now, please, calm down.
Gabrielle: Why? Why should I calm down? Oh, you hurt and you hurt and you hurt, and you think that by saying "I'm a man, that's what men do," you clear it all away. What you did was not just hateful, it was stupid. Now we'll have no say over our books, and we'll never make another penny from them.
Willy: We can write some more.
Gabrielle: No, never. Never again. Never!
Willy: You're overreacting. This was purely a business decision.
Gabrielle: Isn't that what our whole marriage has been? Wasn't I the best investment you ever made? No dowry, but my God, she can write for her keep!
Willy: If you were an investment, you were a highly speculative one.
Gabrielle: I paid you back a thousand times.
Willy: Please, just stop it! Just stop talking about money! You were my ideal, my love, my obsession.
Gabrielle: You killed our child, Willy. Those books...they were all we had. And now they're gone and there's no chance of repair.

...

Willy: My darling, Claudine was only...
Gabrielle: Don't. Don't tell me what Claudine was. I am the real Claudine. Everything I thought and felt went into those books. They were me. My childhood, my memories, my opinions. Everything. And when I think of the hours I spent alone, slaving away for you, churning out scenes just to try and please you, I am so ashamed of myself for that. And yet I knew and you knew... that I was bound to do it. You found me when I knew nothing. You molded me to your own designs, to your desires. And you thought that I could never break free. Well, you're wrong. Claudine is dead now. She's gone. You betrayed her.

...

Gabrielle [voiceover]: After two years of music hall and theater, I'm still the same, face to face with that painted mentor who gazes at me from the other side of the looking glass with deep-set eyes under lids smeared with purplish greasepaint. I know she is going to speak to me. She is going to say, "Is that you there all alone under that ceiling, booming and vibrating under the feet of the dancers? Why are you there all alone? And why not somewhere else?" Yes, this is the dangerous, lucid hour. Now, whenever I despair, I no longer expect my end, but some bit of luck, some commonplace little miracle which, like a glittering link, will mend again the necklace of my days.

...

Title card: Colette's The Vagabond, based on her music hall experiences, was published under her own name to great critical acclaim. Colette and Missy continued their relationship for many years. Missy often accompanied Colette on music hall tours but never again on the stage. After their divorce was finalized Colette and Willy never spoke again. The Claudine manuscripts were not destroyed by Paul Heon who instead returned them to Colette. She later used them to contest the novels' true authorship -- a battle she eventually won. Colette went on to publish over thirty novels and collections of short stories. She became the most celebrated female author in the history of French literature. In her old age, Colette remarked, "What a wonderful life I've had. I only wish I'd realized it sooner."
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

In any nation there is always going to be a tug of war between what you feel you have the right to do and what "society" [in the form of the government, the court, the law] thinks you ought not have the right to do. And every now and again it becomes the stuff of headlines.

Here the conflict is "inspired" by true events: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... ct-speaks/

Think about it. You sincerely believe that in the eyes of the Lord choosing to have a blood transfusion is to thwart God's will. And though this refusal may result in your death, that too is no less God's will.

What ought the state -- the courts -- to do?

To do in grappling with that huge gap between those who believe something absolutely and those who recognize that when others believe just the opposite absolutely, there can only be laws that somehow try to deal with this for all practical purposes. And here there is sometimes room for "moderation, negotiation and compromise" and other times considerably less so.

In this case the patient in need of the transfusion is almost 18 years old. So is he mature enough -- adult enough -- to make his own case? At least to the extent that anyone raised in a fiercely devout religious family is able to think it through thoroughly? Had he been 18 -- legally an adult -- there would be no court hearing at all.

One of those films in which there is [at times] an engrossing back and forth exploration into the "issue at hand". And then a tumble [stumble] into the personal life of the protagonist. Should the boy be permitted to refuse the transfusion and/or will the judge's marriage be saved? Sometimes they are skillfully intertwined in the plot, and sometimes they aren't.

In other words, an "intelligent and thought provoking" film intertwined in melodramatic soap opera fare.

And then the tangled conundrums embedded in medicine confronting conflicting goods. To abort or not to abort? To separate or not to separate conjoined babies? The "for all practical purposes' relationship between law and morality. Tangled further still in God and religion.

Also, let's not talk about the ending.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Children_Act_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/BqGpq_Agv_I

The Children Act [2017]
Directed by Richard Eyre

Fiona [a judge addressing the court]: If the twins remain joined, both babies will die. If the hospital is granted permission to separate them, Luke will die instantly, while Michael is likely to develop into a normal healthy child. The logic of the lesser evil is clear, one child flourishing better than two dead. But if the doctors invade Luke's body and sever his aorta, with the inevitable consequence of his death, why is that not murder? The loving parents of these twins refuse to sanction such an act of premeditated killing. God has given life, they have argued in this court, and only God can take it away. It has been difficult, under such pressure of time and intense public interest, to arrive at settled legal principle, but the obvious. This court is a court of law, not of morals.

...

Reporter: Do you think the verdict was right? Can you tell us how you're feeling?
Mother: Today the court has granted the hospital a licence to murder one of our children. Mrs Justice Maye has taken a scalpel to the heart of reason and justice.

So, you tell me?

Jack [Fiona's husband, a professor, addressing his class]: I will leave you with Flaubert's celebrated observation regarding Lucretius. "With the gods gone and Christ not yet come, there was a unique moment, from Cicero to Marcus Aurelius, when man stood alone." So, there you have it. Before Christianity began to close the Western mind, what was briefly possible then was 'the fixity of a pensive gaze'.

God in court, God in the classroom.

Jack [to Fiona after she cancels -- yet again -- their weekend plans]: Um... look... I don't know how to say this, um, but here it is. I think...I think I wanna have an affair.
Fiona: What?
Jack: Yeah, I'm going to, um... I mean, you shouldn't be surprised by this.
Fiona: Oh, really?
Jack: Yeah. Fi... when was the last time that we made love?
Fiona: No idea.
Jack: No, you wouldn't. You once told me that couples in long marriages often ended up like siblings. Well, here we are. I love you, but...
Jack: Mm-hm.

...

Jack: 11 months.
Fiona: What?
Jack: You said you had no idea when we last made love, so I'll tell you. 11 months. It's been 11 months. Almost to the day. I marked it in my diary. Special event.

...

Fiona: This is so unfair. I have had the conjoined twins case...
Jack: Yes, I know, and before them the Orthodox Jewish schoolgirls, and before them the bad father from Bahrain, and before him the baby in the phone box...
Fiona: Are you already having this affair? If you are, I'd like you to pack a bag now and leave.
Jack: I told you that I'm not....Don't you miss it, Fi? Or is just 'cause you don't want it, I can't have it? Is that the deal? You have to understand that it's not just about the sex. It's...We don't even kiss any more. Barely a peck on the cheek.

So, you tell me.

Nigel [Fiona's legal clerk on the phone]: A call from the out-of-hours Urgent Business Associate on behalf of counsel representing a hospital in Wandsworth. They urgently need to give blood to a cancer patient. It's a boy of 17. Now, he and his parents are refusing.
Fiona:Why are they refusing?
Nigel: They're Jehovah's Witnesses. The hospital is seeking an order to proceed against their wishes.
Fiona: How long have we got?
Nigel: Perhaps four days.
Fiona: List it for hearing at short notice the day after tomorrow. Give notice to the respondents. Direct the hospital to inform the parents. They'll have liberty to apply for legal aid. The boy will need legal representation. I want the hospital to serve evidence by four tomorrow with a witness statement from the treating oncologist. I'll need to know why transfusion is necessary. And the parents should use their best endeavours to file evidence by noon on Thursday. OK, thanks. Bye.

...

Minister: Why is blood so important to God? Why is God so insistent? Yes, Sarah?
Sarah [a child]: Because that's where the soul is, right in the blood, and therefore it belongs to him.
Minister: Very good indeed. The soul, the life, it's in the blood, and it's not ours, it's God's. Now let us pray for our dear friend, Adam Henry, and a prayer of faith will make the sick one well and Jehovah will raise him up.

...

Nigel: The boy has a form of leukaemia...
Fiona: The boy, the boy. Let's at least give him a name.
Nigel: Of course, My Lady. Adam. Adam Henry. An only child. Very devout. Awfully precocious, they say. His parents are Kevin and Naomi, also very devout.

...

Attorney: My Lady, I believe all parties accept that Adam has leukaemia. The hospital wishes to treat him with four drugs, a universally recognised therapy, as I can show. Two of these drugs have the side effect of attacking the bone marrow, compromising the body's immune system, therefore it's standard to transfuse during treatment. However, the boy and his parents are Jehovah's Witnesses and it's contrary to their faith to accept blood products into their system. This apart, Adam and his parents agree to any treatment the hospital can offer.

...

Attorney: Professor Carter, bring us up to date on Adam's condition.
Professor: It's not good, he's weak, and, as I would expect, he's beginning to show the first signs of breathlessness. His haemoglobin counts are dropping steadily. The norm is 12.5. This morning it was 4.5. And the white cell count? Well, they should be somewhere between 5 and 9. He was showing 1.7. As for the platelets...
Fiona: Remind me of their function.
Professor: They're necessary for clotting, My Lady. The norm is 250. Adam's count this morning was 34. A healthy adolescent produces 500 billion blood cells every day. Adam is producing no blood at all.
Attorney: And if you could transfuse this patient...?
Professor: Then he would stand a decent chance.
Attorney: Have you discussed with Adam what will happen to him if he's not transfused?
Professor: Well, I've spared him the details. He knows he could die.
Attorney: What knowledge does he have of the manner of his death?
Professor: Nothing at all.
Attorney: Then perhaps you could tell us?
Professor: It'll be very distressing for everyone, including the medical team. They simply can't understand why they should risk losing this patient. He'll fight to breathe and he's bound to lose. It'll be frightening, like drowning. Before that, there will be internal bleeding perhaps, perhaps renal failure. Some patients lose their sight. He may have a stroke. Patients vary. The one sure thing is that it will be a horrible death.

...

Attorney [for Adam and his parents]: Do you agree, Professor, that the freedom of choice in medical treatment is a fundamental human right?
Professor: In adults, yes, I agree.
Prtofessor: If his 18th birthday were tomorrow morning, he wouldn't legally be an adult this afternoon.
Attorney: I think we can agree that Adam is very nearly an adult, and isn't it the case that he's expressed his views to you intelligently?
Professor: His views are his parents' views. His objections to blood transfusion are the doctrines of a religious cult for which he's likely to become a pointless martyr.
Attorney: I assume you're a Christian?
Professor: I am an Anglican.
Attorney: Is the Church of England a cult? Are you aware that the World Health Organization estimates that up to 20% of new AIDS cases are caused by blood transfusions? And transfusion brings other dangers. Hepatitis, Lyme disease, malaria, syphilis, Chagas' disease, graft-versus-host disease, transfusion-related lung disease, variant CJD.
Professor: Very rarely happens and never under me.
Attorney: So if we added up all the dangers, wouldn't you say there was enough to give a rational person pause?
Professor: The blood products we use are tested to the highest standard.
Attorney: But it wouldn't be unreasonable, surely, given all the potential for infection and error, for a patient to insist his consent be sought.
Professor: You're playing with words. If I'm not allowed to transfuse this boy, we may lose him.
Attorney: Jehovah's Witnesses patients are often treated now by what's called bloodless surgery.
Professor: Look, we're not dealing with surgery here. This boy needs blood because his treatment prevents him making any of his own. It's as simple as that.

...

Attorney [for Adam]: Can you tell the court why you and your wife and Adam are refusing a blood transfusion?
Kevin [Adam's father]: What you have to understand is that blood, it's the essence of what it means to be human. It's the gift of life that we should all be grateful for. Just as life is sacred, so's blood.
Attorney: So why would Adam refuse such a gift from the doctors?
Kevin: Mixing your own blood with the blood of an animal or another person is pollution, it's contamination. It's a rejection of God's gift. That's why he specifically forbids it in Genesis and Leviticus and Acts. And our son, Adam, he knows that God's word has to be obeyed.
Kevin: Yes, we love him.
Attorney: And if refusing a blood transfusion... should cause his death?
Kevin: Then he'd take his place in the kingdom of heaven on earth that's to come.

...

Attorney [for the hospital]: Mr Henry, these books of the Bible you mentioned. At the time of these Iron Age texts, transfusion didn't exist. How on earth could it be forbidden?
Kevin: It existed in the mind of God.
Attorney: Many Jehovah's Witnesses accept blood products without compromising their faith. Isn't it the case that there are other options open to young Adam and you could, if you wanted, play your part in persuading him to take them and save his life?
Kevin: I don't know anyone who departs from the teachings of the Governing Body. The elders give us good guidance.
Attorney: The same strict elders who've been visiting your son every day to make sure he doesn't change his mind?
Kevin: These are kind and decent men. The other churches have priests in the hospital too.
Attorney: It's true, isn't it, that if Adam agreed to a transfusion, he'd be what you call dis-fellowshipped, cast out of the community?
Kevin: Disassociated, actually, but it's not gonna happen because he isn't gonna change his mind.
Attorney: He's in your care and it's your mind I want to change. He's scared of being shunned. Isn't that the term you use? The only world he knows would turn its back on him for preferring life to a terrible death. Does that sound like a free choice?
Kevin [to the judge]: My Lady, if you spent just five minutes with him, then you'd understand that this is a very, very special person who knows his own mind.
Attorney: Mr Henry, have you told Adam that if he saved his own life and agreed to a transfusion, you'd still love him?
Kevin: We've told him we love him.
Attorney: Is that all?
Kevin: It's enough.
Attorney: When were the Jehovah's Witnesses commanded to refuse blood transfusions?
Kevin: It's in Genesis. It dates from the creation.
Attorney: It dates from 1945, doesn't it? A committee in Brooklyn has decided your son's fate. Kevin: There are deep truths that weren't previously understood. The same is just as true in science.
Attorney: Not much room for dissent in your church, is there?
Kevin: You've probably no idea what it means to submit to a higher authority. We do so of our own free will.
Attorney: When you were Adam's age, you wouldn't have known your own mind would you?
Kevin: He's lived his whole life in the truth. I didn't have that privilege.
Attorney: You say life is precious. Other people's lives or just your own?
Kevin: All life is a gift of the Lord and his to take away.
Attorney: Easy to say, Mr Henry, when it's not your life.
Kevin: Harder to say when it's your own son.

...

Attorney: Is masturbation a sin?
Kevin: Yes.
Attorney: And abortion? Homosexuality?
Kevin: Yes.
Attorney: Is this what Adam's been taught to believe?
Kevin: That is what he knows to be true.

...

Mrs Greene [reading Adams own words to the court]: I'm my own man. I'm separate from my parents. Whatever their ideas are, I'm deciding for myself. I'm prepared to die.
Fiona: Thank you , Mrs Greene.

...

Fiona [to the courtroom]: Given the unique circumstances of this case, I have decided I would like to hear from Adam himself. I need to know if he understands his situation and what he confronts should I rule against the hospital. I'll go now to Adam's bedside in the company of his guardian. I'll give judgement in open court when I return.

...

Adam: So you've come to change my mind. Straighten me out.
Fiona: No, Adam. I need to know what's best for you.
Fiona: I have to be sure you know what you're doing. Leukaemia's a very serious illness. Refusing a blood transfusion when it could save your life, some people think you've been unduly influenced by your parents and the elders, and others think that you're awfully clever and we should just let you get on with it. Should we? Let you do yourself in? Somehow I've got to decide.
Adam: I think it's my choice.
Fiona: I'm afraid the law doesn't agree.

...

Fiona: Let's just consider the practicalities. With a transfusion, the consultant could add two drugs to your treatment and you'd stand a good chance of a pretty quick recovery. Without a transfusion, you could die. You understand that?
Adam: If you don't believe in God, you've no right talking about what does or doesn't please him.
Fiona: I haven't said I don't believe. I need to know you've thought this through. Blind or mentally disabled, or both. For the rest of your life. Ready for that?
Adam: I'd hate it. I'd hate it. But I'd accept it.

...

Fiona: Tell me this, Adam. I want to hear it in your own words. Why won't you have a blood transfusion?
Adam: 'Cause it's wrong. God has told us that it's wrong.
Fiona: Why is it wrong?
Adam: Why is anything wrong, My Lady? We just know it. Murder, torture, lying, being unfaithful in your marriage. How do we just know it? It's in our hearts. God has put it there. And so... like, even if we get useful information by torturing a terrorist, we know, we just know it's wrong.
Fiona: Is transfusion like torture?
Adam: They're both wrong. I wish I could make you see this. Blood isn't just a biological thing and it isn't just a symbol. It's life itself. It's what we are. We've chosen to live in God's truth and he's told us not to mix our blood with other people's. It's a simple rule we wanna live by. We're not inflicting it on anyone else. We just wanna live our lives in the truth as we see it. As we know it.
Fiona: Thank you, Adam. And if I decided the hospital can legally transfuse you, what would you think?

Here of course we can only imagine each of us ourselves confronting Adam and his point of view.

Fiona [addressing the courtroom]: I am bound by the Children Act and the clear injunction of its opening lines: "The child's welfare shall be the court's paramount consideration." Assuming a good recovery, this young man's welfare is better served by his love of reading and his newly found passion for the guitar, by the exercise of his lively intelligence and by the expression of a playful, affectionate nature and by all of life and love that lie ahead of him. I find that A himself, his parents and the elders of his church have made a decision which is hostile to A's welfare. He must be protected from his religion and from himself. In my judgement, his life is more precious than his dignity. My direction and declaration are as follows. It will be lawful for the applicant hospital to pursue such medical treatments of A as they deem necessary, including blood transfusion.

...

Adam [leaving Fiona a message on her phone]: Hi. This is Adam Henry. My Lady, I got your number. It wasn't difficult. I'm out of hospital at last, and it's so great to hear your calm voice. I loved it when you came and sat with me and we did the Salley Gardens. I look at that poem every day. I suppose I like being 'young and foolish'. But if it wasn't for you, I'd be neither. I'd be dead.

...

Fiona: You look a lot stronger. How's it been?
Adam: Lots of rows with my parents. School's OK, I suppose. Sometimes the idea of having a stranger's blood inside me makes me feel sick, like... drinking someone else's saliva.
Fiona: Come on. You're alive.
Adam: Yeah, but I wanted...Look, I've so many questions. Couldn't we go somewhere and talk?
Fiona: Adam, there's something I want you to get very clear in your mind. For me, your case is over. I've got lots of new cases, babies and children, all kinds of sadness, and for you, you've got your life back. Everything's ahead of you now. You're talented. You're going to do very well, I'm sure of that. But there's one thing I want you to do for me. Don't phone me again or write to me or follow me. Do you understand?

Meanwhile...

Jack: You were seen coming out of Mike Morrow's office. Divorce? Are you serious? Without even telling me? I hope he pointed out that you might just be overreacting.
Fiona: Perhaps it's time I started overreacting.
Jack: God. You're the big authority on family problems, and yet when it comes to your own, you're like a sulking child.
Jack: Oh, Jesus. Jesus. This is beyond self-pity. What is the point of your silence, Fiona? What is the point? Come on, wake up.
Fiona: I don't trust you any more.
Jack: Listen, I left this marriage for two days. Two days. You left it years ago. You might just think about that while you're away.

Then the part where they...jump the shark?

Fiona: Should I be frightened? Are you really stalking me?
Adam: No, it's nothing like that. I read your judgement. You said you wanted to save me from my religion, from myself. Well, you did. I'm saved.
Fiona: What do you want?
Adam: I'm not the person I was. When you came to see me, I really was ready to die. Amazing that someone like you could waste your time on me. I was such an idiot.
Fiona: You seemed very sincere.
Adam: Well, a sincere idiot. I felt so noble telling the doctors to leave me alone. No one could understand how profound I was. I was so pumped up. At night I used to think about this video I was gonna make on my phone, like suicide bombers do. It was gonna be on the TV news. It was gonna be on the TV news. I could make myself cry just thinking about my funeral, everyone loving me, everyone weeping. What a sacrifice he made. What an idiot.
Fiona: Where was God?
Adam: He was there, behind everything. I was obeying his word, living in the truth. But it wasn't only about him. It was my delicious adventure, my beautiful death...
Fiona: More of an adolescent thing.
Adam: But if I hadn't been a Witness, I would never have been in that mess.
Fiona: So now you've lost your faith?
Adam: No, no. Perhaps. It scares me to say it out loud, but the thing is, once you take a step back from the Witnesses, you might as well go all the way. Why replace one tooth fairy with another?

...

Adam: When I had the blood, my parents were there. I saw them hugging each other and crying, really sobbing. They'd lost the case and they'd tried so hard. But then I realised, no, no, they were crying for joy, 'cause they'd always wanted me to live and they'd never told me. It wasn't about God at all. I felt cheated, like I'd been really stupid. The whole thing was a fraud. And I've looked it up. The courts always let the hospital transfuse a minor. You knew that. You always knew what you were gonna do. They'd never let a kid die for their parents' religion. So what were you doing at my bedside, coming bothering me and singing with me, getting under my skin, trying to get close to me, asking me questions? I didn't ask you into my life. A rubber stamp, that's all you needed. You can't just send me away. I don't care if you think you're too grand to explain yourself, 'cause I've a right to know. What did you want from me? And my parents, if they loved me...
Nigel: The cab is here.
Fiona: My clerk will take you to the station and buy your ticket and put you on the train to London. To the station.
[Adam kisses her on the lips]

...

Fiona [reading a note to her from Nigel]: "My Lady, I just had word the Jehovah's Witness boy, Adam Henry, is very ill again. He's in St David's Hospice, refusing treatment, refusing to see his parents. They think he might not survive the night."

...

Adam [in the hospital to Fiona]: My choice.

...

Fiona: Adam thought I could...change his life...answer all his questions. He was just a dreamer, but I...I thought I was being kind, you see. I should have...I should have... He couldn't understand why his parents...Their only son.
Jack: What happened? What's his name? Where is he now?
Fiona: Adam. His name is Adam. He...I heard tonight his cancer came back, his thing, and they need to transfuse him. And he's refused. He's 18. There's nothing the hospital can do. He's refused and his lungs are filling with blood and he's dying.
Jack: He's dying for his faith. Were you in love with him, Fiona?
Fiona: Oh, Jack. He was just a child. A boy. A lovely boy. A lovely boy. Jack, he... Such a waste.

...

Fiona [reading aloud the note from Adam]: "My Lady, you never told me what you believed in. I bet it isn't God. But what? And me? I just don't know any more. Sometimes, in strange moods, I think, well, I'm an adult now. This thing will come back. I just know it will. And then...I could be free."
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

Here's a film that takes us into another world. But not really. It's a world we can understand because it is populated by human beings. And being human ourselves there are any number of interactions that we can recognize as being "human all too human".

Also, "gritty all too gritty". And "grim all too grim."

For better or for worse. Depending on your point of view.

But most of us can never really embody the point of view of these people because we don't live their lives from day to day to day. It's a very different culture with very different ways of thinking about right and wrong, good and bad, true and false. A sense of reality that is borne in large part from a more or less indoctrinated point of view about reality. About family. About family obligations.

But it's the modern world. A world where immigration has brought together people of very different cultures. A world where access to information [from the media, from the internet] generates all of the many different [and alternative] ways in which one can choose to live.

The family here are Gypsies. So we are confronted with all of the stereotypes that come with the reaction many have in "dealing" with them. As one IMDb reviewer put it:

The writer/director's treatment is consistent and relentless: an unwavering close up of impoverished Gypsy life, at odds with the "Italians" who surround them and at odds with a society that considers them outsiders, thieves, and liars. The streets are uniformly strewn with garbage, and when a building experiences arson, you are almost ready to say "good riddance."

There are any number of people who will watch this film and conclude that these people aren't worth investing any interest in. Let alone compassion. As long as they stay on their side of the tracks and leave the rest of us alone. Class is everywhere here. And race.

A "coming of age" saga that is no doubt far, far removed from yours or mine. And that's the point. To take us inside a world that we will judge while really knowing nothing about.

When you watch Pio going about the business of surviving from day to day you think of Fresh.

Look for not a single ounce of hope here. And you can't help but ponder the reaction of many in the Gypsy community. All of the stereotypes seem to be reinforced. Where then are the alternative narratives?

One take on it: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/movi ... gnano.html

IMDb

The director and his crew had a Fiat Panda full of film equipment stolen while filming the short film A Chjàna (2012). They went to the Romani community in the Ciambra to negotiate for their car. This is how the director first met the Amato family, who he depicts in this film.

As in the film's predecessor, Mediterranea (2015), the cast consists of non-professional actors who the director met in the city of Gioia Tauro in Calabria, Italy. The story is a fictional narrative in true-to-life surroundings.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Ciambra
trailer: https://youtu.be/R1l4Hpp27A4
https://youtu.be/cizugv2Y1AY

A Ciambra [2017]
Written and directed by Jonas Carpignano

Brother: Why are the cops here? The electricity?
Pio: No they found him outside.
Brother: Death to the cops by fire. Did you switch the electricity?
Pio: Yeah.

...

Father [at the dinner table]: You're all drunk like the Africans.
Mother: Just like the Africans. They get drunk and smash each other up.
Father: You're gonna end up like the Africans.

...

Woman: One time I saw one outside the supermarket. He's like "come here". I said "what do you want?" I said, "ugly African, go away!" He grabbed my hand and I freaked. "Ugly African, get out of here." I'm scared of them. Seriously.

...

Man: Fucking Gypsies.
Man [now on the phone]: Hello, police? Please send a car to Scina 15. Hurry. There's a band of Gypsies making a mess. They're stealing everything.

...

Pio: Ma, Ma! It's the Italians!!

...

One of the Italian men: I heard your boy was arrested.
Mother: What can I do?
Man: These things happen. You know what they say, "it's better to drag chains than to drag friends down."

...

Mother [to Pio]: Now that your father and brother are arrested and gone, you think you're the boss.

...

Ayiva [an African man Pio has befriended]: That's enough.
Pio: Okay, enough.
Ayiva: Come here. Look at me, in the eyes. This is it. I don't want to go to jail or back to Burkina Faso. And I don't want them to send you away.
Pio: Okay, enough.
Ayiva: You understand?
Pio: Yes.

...

Mother: And this money?
Pio: From the car.
Mother: How could you risk it? I'm worried sick about your brother, and you're gonna go and get arrested? The whole family will be in jail. I'll be the only one out. And how will I go on?

...

Police [to Pio's moother]: Good evening, Ma'am. We have a warrant. We're looking for the copper you stole.

...

Daughter: It's the fine for the electricity.
Mother: How much?
Daughter: Nine thousand euros.
Mother: Nine thousand euros. Is there time to pay?
Mother [while Pio listens in]: What are we gonna to do?

...

Pio [to Ayiva]: Let's go make some money.

...

Pio: Are you okay?
Ayiva: Yeah.
Pio: Was that your wife and daughter on the computer?
Ayiva: No. My sister and my daughter.
Ayiva: It's only the three of us.

...

Pio: You seem off. What's up?
Ayiva: I'm fine. You know, life is a bit complicated. Sometimes you think you are moving ahead, and then you hit a setback.

...

Black woman: You see all these people? They are from Ghana. I am Nigerian. Where are you from?
Pio: Gioia.
Black woman: Gioia Tauro? You're a Gypsy, no?
[Pio nods]
Black woman: I like Gypsies, you know?

...

Grandfather: Once, we were always on the road. We were free and didn't have bosses. We answered to no one. We were free, always on the road. Now we live here. Remember...it's us against the world.
Pio: Against the world.

...

Pio: Do a lot of Africans have cars.
Ayiva: Some, but not many. Why?
Pio: Why don't we take some cars and sell them the parts?
Ayiva: Stop thinking about stealing cars.

...

Pio: Why don't you tell me about prison.
Brother: Why the fuck do you care?
Pio: While you were in prison, I brought home the bread.
Brother: What the fuck do you want, tell me.
Pio: Let's go steal together.
Brother: You're a kid, Pio. Where you gonna go?
Pio: Don't give me that shit.
Brother: You're gonna deal with the Italians now?
Pio: I'm not afraid of them.
Brother: Get out. You're pissing me off. Out. Out!
[Pio looks at him disbelieving]
Brother: Stop bothering me. Out. Out.

...

Italian man: Tell your family what you did.
Pio: I pretended to get my ball. I saw a computer. A photo, and I took them.
Man: And what else. Tell them. Tell your mother what you did. You know how long I've known your family. And you wanna come to my house and steal?...Don't ever come to my house again. Or you'll be dead on the floor. Thank god I know your family...your brother or you wouldn't have had a good night. Understand?

...

Father [to Pio]: Get out! Get out of this house!!

...

Pio: What is it?
Brother: You wanna know how it is? In Palmi prison, they take care of you. They all respect you in there. Not the Africans. They get no respect. No one even looks at them. But us...they all respect us. Even the Italians respect us. There was a guy who was in prison in Brazil. Down there, they piss and shit in their cells. They tie themselves up so they don't fall in their shit. They're like animals down there. You messed up, Pio. What are we gonna do?
Pio: I don't know.
Brother: You wanna do something with me? Let's do this thing...and it'll make everything okay.

...

Pio [watching Ayiva go by on his motorcycle]: What are we doing here?
Brother: My friend will come with a truck. I'll help him. He'll pay us immediately.
Pio: I'm not gonna do that to Ayiva.
Brother: Stop it with this African, Pio.
Pio: Why are you still calling him that?
Brother: You have to think about us....and you're worried about the African?

...

Brother: They won't let you back in the Ciambra, Pio. Call him and get him outta there.
Pio: I'm not doing it. That's it.
Brother: Don't be a baby, Pio. They come with the truck, take everything and pay us immediately. Just say the word. He trust you, Pio.

...

Ayiva: What happened, Pio? You're scaring me.
Pio [with tears streaming down his face]: Will you take me home?

...

Brother [to Pio]: See, everything is fine. You did good.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: philosophy in film

Searching.

In the computer age. It's not for nothing that the criminal justice system is keen on seizing all computers when the crime is serious enough. After all, that is often where all the secrets are to be found.

Only here, it is the father of a missing girl who is able to follow all of the digital crumbs into the digital forest.

So, in part, it's a "tech film". Or, as one IMDb reviewer put it...

This film got it right in the technology department. All real websites, technology and actual examples of how you can search the internet to find information. They had to get this right and as an avid tech enthusiastic i was pleased that they did.

And this part will either be over [or way, way over] your head or it won't. Let's face it, for a lot of us, these technological marvels may as well still be just science fiction. Or magic.

And it's a thriller. But it's also a postmodern thriller immersed in this technological age we have not yet grasped all of the implications of. That the "devices" are there for everyone to use is one thing, how they are used, another thing altogether. To paraphrase Shane, "a computer, the internet and social media are as good or as bad as the person using them".

Throw in the part about a postmodern morality and things can get really, really dark, really, really fast.

Finally, the part where, in today's world, what do parents really know about their kids? They go out into the world and make contact with who knows who. Some things they share with you, some things they don't. And it's an electronic jungle out there. With the internet the sky is the limit regarding who or what your child might bump into.

As for the ending it is as believable or unbelievable as you need it to be.

IMDb

For the German, Spanish, French, Russian and Portuguese versions of the movie, every TV/phone/computer screen was recreated in its respective language, as well as every typing sequence, keystroke by keystroke.

The film took just 13 days to shoot. However, it took two years to make due to the prep, editing and animating.

Throughout the movie various news articles hint to an alien invasion that happening at the same time.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7668870/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searching_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/3Ro9ebQxEOY

Searching [2018]
Written in part and directed by Aneesh Chaganty

Margot [from voicemail]: Hey, you've reached Margot's phone. Leave me a message or text me back.
David: Hey, Margot, Dad again. I'm not sure if you've been checking your messages, but um, I'm starting to get a little...Why did you leave your laptop at home?

...

David [on phone]: Hi, uh, Mrs. Shahinian? This is David Kim, Margot's father.
Teacher: Yes, I'm in the middle of a lesson. May I call you back afterwards?
David: Right, no, this is just, take a second...Can you put my daughter on the phone just for a second?
Teacher: I'm sorry, Mr. Kim, I'm confused what you're calling about.
David: M-My daughter, Margot Kim is in a lesson with you right now?
Teacher: Margot Kim canceled her classes six months ago.

She didn't make it to school that day either.

911 operator: 911, what's your emergency?
David: Hi, I'm calling about a possible... I... I'm calling to report a missing person.
Operator: Okay, who is this regarding?
David: Uh, my daughter. I know I should've called sooner. I just thought that...
Operator: That's okay, sir. The first thing we need to do is file a report. After that, I'll put out a call to a detective in the area who will be in touch with you.
David: All right.

...

Rosemary: My name is Rosemary Vick. I'm the detective sergeant assigned to your daughter's case. I've been waiting for your call. We're working as fast as we can. I'm currently 35 minutes away from your house. But while I have you, do you feel comfortable telling me what you know?
David: I just told every detail I know to whoever I got off the phone with an hour ago. I don't know what you guys are doing.
Rosemary: I promise you, Mr. Kim, we are taking this very seriously. And as a parent myself, I can only imagine what you must be feeling. But for me to help you, I do need to know how everything unfolded from your eyes.
David: Understood, detective.
Rosemary: Okay, let's see if I got this right. One: after a group study session, Margot, with her car, didn't return home Thursday evening. Two: she called three times at 11:00 p.m. Three: she didn't attend school on Friday. And four: she's been skipping piano classes for the last six months. Was all of that correct?
David: Yes.
Rosemary: Okay. Mr. Kim, I am going to find out what happened to your daughter. But I'll need to know a lot more about her, okay? We'll handle the ground investigation, Mr. Kim. That's our job. But if there's something a parent can do, it's shedding light for us on who your daughter is and the people she talks to. Is that something you can help us with?
David: Yes. I can help with that.

...

Rosemary: Hey, update me whenever you learn something. Big or small.
David: Okay. Where are you going?
Rosemary: To find out what the rest of her Thursday looked like.

...

Peter: Are there any Facebook friends you haven't talked to yet?
David: Yes. 94. And apparently, since nobody was actually her friend, I don't know who to talk to without calling every name I read online.

...

David [on skype]: Did she mention anything unusual going on, maybe? Was she acting strange?
Abigail: Uh... You know, she did go on Tumblr a lot.
David: What? What is a tumbler?

...

Rosemary [on skype]: First, she fills up for gas. Then exits off the 101. And then turns onto the 152 east. 10:02 p.m.
David: 152 east? That exits leads outta town.
Rosemary: She took it alone.
David: That doesn't make sense. This does not sound like my daughter. She's acting like a totally different person.

...

David [on skype]: She's been depositing her piano cash into her checking account every week. What the hell was she doing with all that money? Six days ago, she made an outgoing transaction of $2,500 to Venmo. Peter: The payment service? David: There it is.$2,500. Six days ago.
Peter: Does it say what it was for?
David: Nothing but a peace sign.
Peter: Who did she send it to?
David: It doesn't say.

...

Derek [on phone]: Sir, I don't have to tell you anything.
David: I just want to know where you were the night my daughter went missing.
Derek: Like I said, I had a prior engagement.
David: What are you hiding? What are you hiding?
Derek: Nothing!
David: Then answer the damn question before there's a cop knocking on your door. Where were you the night my daughter went missing?!

...

Rosemary [on phone]: Does the name Rachel Jeun ring a bell?
David: No. Why?
Rosemary: It's Margot. You mentioned earlier she was acting like a different person. So I had our forensics team look through any deleted contacts on the copy of her hard drive. One of those contacts was a local forger. He said Margot picked up an ID a few days ago. Around the same time, she withdrew all that money.
David: Withdrew? What? Withdrew what money?
Rosemary: David, I also spoke to security at Venmo. To find out more about the account Margot sent the $2,500 to. David: Do they know who it belonged to? Rosemary: It belonged to Margot. David: She sent the money to herself? What was she doing? Running a- a laundering scheme? Rosemary: That's what it looks like. I'd see this a lot in narcotics. People who know their money's being watched just transfer their funds to somewhere much less monitored. David: Less monitored. Like where? Rosemary: The Internet. David: She gets a fake ID, she sends money to herself. What does this mean? Rosemary: That it's time to start considering the possibility that Margot ran away. David: Why would she do that? Rosemary: That's what we don't know. David: No, no, no, no, no. I know my daughter. She did not run away. ... Margot [from a YouCast video clip]: My dad doesn't know I stopped going to piano. He wouldn't get it. ... Rosemary [om skype]: I'm sorry, David, YouCast is another dead end. David: You sure you looked into every one of them? Rosemary: Every one. None of the YouCast users Margot interacted with have a connection to her disappearance. Even fishnchips. Using the information on her account, we traced her to a Kerchick's Diner 10 miles outside Pittsburgh. I spoke to her and her manager who confirmed with CCTV that she was on a shift. Checks out. David: I didn't know her. I didn't know my daughter. ... Rosemary [on skype to David]: Couple of years ago, an angry neighbor starts banging on my door. When I asked her what the trouble was, she said, she wanted the$25 that my son had stolen from her. Now, I didn't know what she was talkin' about. I know my son. And that did not sound like the Robert I raised. But as it turned out, it was true. My son had gone house to house in the neighborhood for two weeks telling people that he was my son. And that he was raising money for a fictional police charity called Moms and Dads in Blue. Point is...you don't always know your kid.

...

Rosemary [from voicemail]: You've reached Detective Sergeant Rosemary Vick. Leave a message. I'll get back to you.
David: Vick! Wake up. I know why she was at that intersection. She wasn't leaving town, she was driving to the spot she's been visiting for the past five months. It's 3:45 a.m. I'm headed there now.

...

David [on skype]: You told me she ran away.
Rosemary: Okay, I'm heading there right now. Okay. I need you to stay calm, all right? We're gonna figure this out together. What are you showing me?
David: This is her keychain.
Rosemary: Oh, my God. Did you call the cops? I'm heading, I'm-I'm on my way.
David: You told me she ran away, Vick!

...

News anchor on TV: Good morning, Bay Area. I'm Natalie Boyd. A terrifying development today as a vehicle matching that of a missing San Jose teenager was discovered late last night underneath a Santa Cruz lake. An operation is currently underway to recover Margot Kim's Toyota Camry. But at this moment, we still don't know whether the Evercreek High sophomore is actually inside the vehicle.

...

Rosemary [to reporters on the scene]: Good morning. Thank you for being here on such short notice. I am Detective Sergeant Rosemary Vick, lead investigator on this case. I am joined by David Kim. Margot's father. We've provided you all with a timeline of events, starting with last Thursday, May 11th, when Margot first went missing. That is yours to circulate. But focusing on the events of this morning, The Silicon Valley Police Department was able to recover Ms. Kim's vehicle. And to answer the most pressing question, Margot Kim was not inside. However, our examination of the vehicle did reveal a small amount of blood on the passenger side dashboard. Blood that points to a physical altercation. Meaning that this case is now officially being considered an abduction.

...

Reporter: It's been four days since Margot Kim was last seen. And so far, nothing to show for it except for the torturous mystery at its center. $2,500 in cash was found in a Manila envelope on Margot's passenger seat. Was it a runaway fund? Like the lead detective is suggesting, or was it something more? Cue the social media frenzy. Rosemary [on Skype]: You can't assist an investigation anymore. David: What? What does that...what does that mean? Rosemary: It means that we can't have someone this close to the case helping investigate it. It's my fault for getting you involved in the first place. I did it because we had already lost so much time. Every professional who should be working on this case is working on this case. David: All I'm trying to do is to help you find my daughter! Rosemary: I know, but you can't see things clearly. David: Who's the one who brought you to the car? Who's the one who found the lake and brought you to the car? If it wasn't for me, not you, you and I would be thinking that my Margot ran away. But because of me... Rosemary: We don't know that she didn't run away. She had cash in her car. But what we do know is that a 17-year-old boy is in the hospital because you broke his jaw! If you have a suspicion about someone, that's fine. But then, it is the police's job to look for proof. Not yours to act on flakes of evidence. ... David: What was your relationship like with Margot? Peter: What do you mean? David: You guys hung out, right? Peter: Sure. You know, it was uh... You know, we didn't hang out a bunch but You know, it's just... David: When's the last time you saw her, by the way? ... David [reading Margot's text to Peter]: "Last night was fun." "I feel so weird doing this." "Don't tell your father." "He'd kill me." "Seriously, he'd murder me." And at seven different times... "See you tonight." What'd you do to my daughter? What'd you do to my daughter? Peter: I can explain, all right? But you know what? Let's calm down. ... David [grabbing Peter by the throat]: What'd you do to her?! What'd you do to her?! What'd you do to her?! What were you doing with her?! Peter: Weed! David: What? Peter: Weed! I was smoking her out. When you guys all came back from New Year's. She found my piece. She wanted to try it and...It just kept happening. David: You gave drugs to my daughter?! ... Text from Rosemary to David: WE GOT HIM. Call me. ... Peter: You come in here, and accuse me of something un-fucking-speakable and you're wondering what kind of family I am?! You wanna know why she hated all those piano lessons? It's because every time she would walk in, she would see that thing and she would think about her mother. David: She told you that. She told you that and not me. Why? Peter: Because you never asked. Ever since Pam, you stopped talking to Margot about the only thing that's been on her mind the last two years. She needed you to talk to her. Not the other way around. ... Reporter [on TV]: This is Eyewitness News. With live breaking news. Good morning, I'm Faustine Rhee. A parent's worst nightmare comes true this morning for David Kim. In a shocking and thoroughly mind-boggling conclusion to a story that's captivated the Bay Area, Margot Kim, missing now for five days, has just been tragically declared dead. Why? A taped confession. Randy Cartoff, released just six years ago for felony drug possession and sexual assault uploaded the confession online before taking his own life. We're going to show you a segment of the three-minute video now, but please be warned, the following contains graphic descriptions and disturbing content. Viewer discretion is advised. Cartoff [from video]: "Dear girl in the green car, I'm sorry for what I did to you. I'm sorry for not listening to you when you begged me to stop. I'm sorry for beating you. And crushing you. And tossing you with your suitcases so no one would ever find you. I thought this would be easy but it isn't." Rosemary [on TV]: When we arrived at his Morgan Hill residence, Mr. Cartoff was deceased. Seemingly by a self-inflicted gun wound. Sometimes, these confessions are hoaxes but based on his story, we were able to return to the lake site where we discovered trace DNA matching that of Mr. Cartoff in critical areas of the search zone. I've already spoken to her father. But at this point in the investigation, we are very confident that Ms. Kim's life was taken on her way out of town. ... David [on skype]: Still doesn't make sense. Where's the car that he took her in? Where's the...suitcases? Did-Did he clean up the blood? Vick, who is this guy? Rosemary: I don't know. I wish I had an answer. Next up: the answer. The very, very strange answer. David [on phone]: Hi, I'm wondering if I could speak to Hannah? Hannah: Speaking. David: Hi, I'm calling in regards to my daughter, Margot Kim. You spoke to her online as 'mkmania'. Hannah: Oh, um, you must have the wrong number. I'm talent, not representation. But I can connect you to my agent, if you like. David: So, you work as a waitress part time then? Because you told the detective you were on a shift when she called. Hannah: Uh, what detective? I don't understand. David: Detective Vick, she called you four days ago, and you told her you were on a shift... Hannah: Sir, I never got a call from the police. What are you talking about? David: Maybe I'm not being clear. On YouCast, you've been chatting with my daughter for months. Your user name is 'fishnchips'. Your mother was in the hospital. Right? Hannah: What's Youcast? ... David [on phone]: This is David Kim, I need to speak to Detective Rosemary Vick. Woman: Oh, Mr. Kim. I am so sorry to hear about Margot. We are all so torn up about it here. Yeah, thank you. Especially Rosemary. I have never seen someone so invested in a case. From the moment she volunteered to lead it, to the way she handled the investigation. David: Hey, w-w-wait, she did... Did you say volunteered? Y-Y-You said she volunteered. I-I was led to believe that she...she was assigned to the case, right? She was assigned? Woman: No. She definitely volunteered. Unfortunately though, I, I still can't patch you through dispatch. She's probably on her way to Margot's vigil, though. If you'd like, I can connect you to her work voicemail instead...Mr. Kim? Mr. Kim? ... Homicide detective: Ms. Vick, as your counsel was informed, by signing this document, you hereby verify the confession you provide today pertaining to the crimes you're accused of after your arrest one week ago. ... Detective; Let's start with Thursday, May 11th, when Margot Kim went missing. What happened that night? Rosemary: I got a phone call. Detective: And who was calling? Rosemary: My son. Robert [on video]: Mom... I made a big mistake. ... Detective: What did Robert tell you when you got there? Rosemary: He said, "There's a girl down there. I accidentally pushed a girl down there." I asked him why. Detective: What did he say? Rosemary: You need to understand that my son is not like other kids. He's different. He can be hurt... Detective: What did he say? Then yet another rendition of Catfish. Detective: So, your son calls you. Asked you to help cover up a murder. Rosemary: No. No. It was my decision. ... Detective: So, you helped your son. Rosemary: I dumped the car in the lake. And took charge of the investigation. I convinced David his daughter ran away. Said forensics had Margot's hard drive. And told the law enforcement team we'd already cleared the zone I knew her body was in. Detective: But still, it was only a matter of time before they'd found the spot. Rosemary: Which is why I needed a confession. It was the only thing that would make it stop. Detective: So you drugged up an ex-con you knew, fed him a script. Was it really a suicide? Rosemary: He's my son. Do you know what prison would do to someone like him? He made a mistake. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Back when it was basically all new [for most of us] a woman would spend her life being the homemaker. As nature intended. Her life revolved around being there for her husband and her children. She was clearly subordinate in many ways but [if lucky enough] she was put up on a pedestal. Then all this was passed on to the next generation. And then [historically and culturally] the feminist movement came along and her options increased considerably. Now that she could, what would she choose to pursue that was once all but unthinkable for those of her own gender. How about puzzling? As in jigsaw puzzling. Not crossword puzzles. Not puzzles in mathematics. Not logic puzzles. The kind of puzzles that most of us associate with our childhood. And there actually are contests out there in which the adults among us compete. And Agnes is drawn into it. And then "existentially" her life begins to "unfold in ways she could never have imagined." Sound familiar? Of course it need not be puzzles. It could be anything. You are living a life that in some respects is a good one. But it's not the one you want the most. Then you stumble into a whole new set of circumstances. New experiences, new relationships, new ways of thinking about the life you live. And, as in such films as Bridges of Madison County, this is the story of a wife who is married to a "decent man" who is pretty much the dullard. And then meeting another man who in is anything but that. And with jigsaw puzzles there is always a solution. You put the pieces together in the only way that they can be. Unlike the pieces that you are given to life itself. There is never any one solution. Or, as Robert points out, puzzling is a way to "control the chaos". at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puzzle_(2018_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/wl_SoMNi0rw Puzzle [2018] Directed by Marc Turtletaub Louie [husband]: Can someone please explain to my mother why she has to stop living in the 20th century? ... Son [holding out her smart phone]: Mom, look. Just try it. You can Google something. You can Google recipes or Bible study or whatever. Literally everything in the world is on this one device. Look. Agnes: No. No. Son: Just type it into here. Agners: It's like carrying a little robot in your purse. Or a little alien robot friend. I don't need it. ... Agnes: I thought you just didn't eat red meat. Nicki: I'm vegan. Agnes: So you never, ever eat chicken? I should have made fish. Gabe: No, Mom, she... she doesn't eat any animals. Agnes: But she has to have protein. She's still growing. Nicki: Honestly, it's fine. I can... I can eat the salad and bread. I'll be fine. Agnes: Have you always been this way? Gabe: Uh, Nicki is, um... she's also a Buddhist. Agnes: Well, that sounds interesting. You know, I have no idea what that really means... "Buddhist." I always hear people talking about Buddhism and celebrities, but nobody says what it is. Nicki: Okay. Well, um... so the root of all suffering is our desire not to suffer, so we have to give up on the idea of being happy. Louie: You're okay with not being happy? Nicki: Yeah, I try not to think that way. Happiness is an illusion. Ziggy: Um, I read this thing about this kid who drowned in a river because the only person watching him was this Buddhist monk, and if you're Buddhist, you're not supposed to save anybody's life. You're not supposed to, like, interfere with their path. ... Louie: What are you reading? Agnes: Puzzle instructions. Louie: Don't you just put all the pieces together till you run out? What other instructions do you need? Agnes: Strategies, suggestions. Doesn't matter. Louie: You know...only children play with puzzles, Agnes. ... Agnes spots an ad taped to a display shelf: CHAMPION DESPARATELY SEEKING PUZZLE PARTNER ... Robert: Have you seen the news? Agnes: What? No. Uh, I'm here about the puzzles. Robert: Flood in India, and thousands of people washed away just like that. It boggles the mind. There was an earthquake in northern Iran, and... I'm not trying to be gloomy. I know we're just meeting. It's just...too much, you know. ... Agnes [to Robert]: What prize? Robert: Every competition has a prize. Agnes: Your ad never mentioned a competition. Robert: I thought it was obvious. "Champion desperately looking for a puzzle partner." Did you think I was looking for companionship? Agnes: No, of course not. Uh, just a partner. Robert: For a competition. ... Robert [emptying a box of puzzle pieces on a table]: All right. Let's see how we work together. Agnes: Is this a test? Robert: Absolutely. ... Agnes: What is the competition? Robert: National Jigsaw Puzzle Championship. I won the singles last year. My first time. Agnes: I didn't know such a thing existed. That makes at least two of us. Robert [to Agnes]: You're not doing it by color first? Rule number one of competitive puzzling: You've got to organize by color before you do anything else. I will do green and the blues. You do red and the dark browns. ... Agnes: So...Why did she leave you? Your last partner. Robert: Oh, she just left. No explanation, really. Not even a note. Agnes: So, she wasn't just your puzzle partner? Robert: No. She was my wife. ... Robert: So, they give you the puzzle, and you pour the whole thing out at once. You don't take little handfuls and spread them around the table. I noticed you doing that the other day. You also stand up. And walk around the table a couple of times before you start. Agnes: Oh. Robert: You get more perspective this way. You see puzzle pieces without the glare. You see patterns you might not have seen from your chair. You know, different color schemes. Now we can sit. And it's-it's faster to divide things up. I... I do borders, you do colors. ... Robert; You're so much more comfortable when you're focusing on the puzzles, aren't you? Why? Agnes: You ask a lot of questions. Robert: Yeah. That's how you get to know someone. Agnes: But I don't ask you anything. Robert: Go ahead. Agnes: I can't think of a question right now. Robert: That's my point. You're uncomfortable around me. Agnes: Well, I don't know you. But it's not just that. I, uh... I'm not comfortable, generally, because I... because, normally, my mind is, uh... I don't know. Robert: Because, normally, your mind is moving so fast, you don't really know where it's going. There's nowhere for you to express your mind. No one to express it to. It makes you nervous. So you focus on menial tasks. Puzzles are menial tasks for you, so you can focus. But the results are aesthetically pleasing, you like it, and it turns you on. ... Robert: Honestly, Agnes, if you learn the rules and hone the technique, I think we have a good chance at going to Belgium. Agnes: Belgium? Robert: If we win the nationals, we go to the World Jigsaw Puzzle Federation competition. It's in Brussels, right after the nationals. ... Ziggy: I want to cook, Mom. Agnes: What? Ziggy: I've watched you cook my whole life. I watch cooking shows when no one's home. I think I'd be happy doing what you do, not what Dad does. Agnes: But I don't do anything. Ziggy: Are you fucking kidding? Mom, you do a million things, and you're good at all of them. ... Agnes: Ever wonder what your life would be like if you met me a few years later? Or never met me at all? Louie: Not for one second. I thank God every day I have you. Agnes; Every single day? Louie: Yeah. And night. Agnes: I think we should watch the news. Louie: Why? Nothing good ever happens in the world. Agnes: Still, shouldn't we know about it? ... Agnes; I looked you up. I mean, I Googled you on my phone. You're an inventor? Robert: Uh, not really. Agnes; Something about magnets? Robert: Yeah. No. Uh... uh... I have a patent under my name. One invention...one good idea that took off. That's it. I stumbled onto it almost by accident. Haven't come up with anything since. Agnes: It made you rich. Robert: It was a fluke. I'm not an inventor. Let's just do the puzzle. ... Agnes: For once, take my side. There's so much pain all around us. So much suffering in the world. Why shouldn't I help? Louie: You lied to me, like a child. Agnes: You denied me an act of charity, like a heartless master. Louie: What is that supposed to mean? Agnes: You know exactly what it means. And it's not even the real lie. Agnes: You shouldn't smoke. Ziggy: You shouldn't lie. Agnes: I'm sorry. I... Ziggy: Nah, don't tell me. I don't want to know. Whatever it is, uh...I hope it's something that makes you feel good. Agnes: It's nothing like that. Ziggy: Why didn't you ever divorce him? Seriously, you've never really been happy. Agnes: I don't think a mother and son should be having a conversation like this. ... Agnes [regarding Ziggy's letter]: Second paragraph. Robert: All right, let's see. Uh..."My mother doesn't know anything about the world outside of our house, our church, our traditions and our family. She, like my father and brother, never went to college....I love my mother, but I also feel bad for her. She's a sheltered person and doesn't think of anything but serving the men in her life. A child of Hungarian immigrants, she lost her mother when she was young and grew up doting on her dad. She's still living in the house he raised her in. I want to be different. I want to go to college and learn about other cultures and not just my own. I don't just want to become my father, who is too scared to think outside the box, or my mother, who just won't let herself come alive." ... Agnes: You don't know me. Robert: Hey. Hey. I know that you are the best puzzler I've ever met. I know that you are modest and funny and... and beautiful and strange. ... Robert: Ag-nesh. Can I...Can I kiss you right now? [Agnes shakes her head] ... Louie: A puzzle competition? Really? Well, how big is it? Agnes: 500 pieces. Louie: No, not the puzzle. The...the competition. Agnes: Oh. About 360 in the individual competition. Louie: Look, I don't think it's such a good idea. Agnes: I'm doing it. Louie: Honey... Agnes: I'm not asking you. I'm telling you. I'm finally doing something on my own, and you can support me or not. I'll do it either way. ... Robert: Stay. Have a drink with me. Agnes: I have to beat the traffic. I'll see you next week. Robert: I'll miss you, Mata. Agnes: Why did you say that? Robert: 'Cause I meant it. Agnes: How can you mean it? Robert: I don't know. Agnes: How can this be happening? Robert: I don't know. Agnes: Why are we wasting all this time doing puzzles? Robert: What else is there to do? Agnes; It's a childish hobby for bored people. Robert: You know that's not true. Agnes; Tell me you're not a bored rich guy. Tell me I'm not a childish housewife. Robert: No, that's not what we are. Agnes: You have much more important things to do. You're a man of ideas. Why do you do these stupid puzzles? Robert: It's a way... to control the chaos. Agnes: That's ridiculous. Robert: Come on, Mata, you... you're missing the point. Agnes: Okay. What is the point, Robert? Robert: Life is messy. It doesn't make any goddamn sense. Sorry to break the news to you. Life's just random. Everything's random. My success, you here now. There's nothing we can do to control anything. But when you complete a puzzle, when you finish it, you know that you have made all the right choices. No matter how many wrong pieces you tried to fit into a wrong place, but at the very end, everything makes one perfect picture. What other pursuits can give you that kind of perfection? Faith? Ambition? Wealth? Love? No. Not even love can do that, Mata. Not completely. ... Louie: I don't understand what the fucking problem is. Agnes: The fucking problem is my fucking husband not thinking there's a fucking problem. ... Agnes [on the phone]: God. It's the worst thing I've ever done. Robert: Wait, what? What happened? Agnes: Kissing you. Robert: Oh. Wow. If that's the worst thing you have ever done, Agnes, you are pretty damn lucky. Agnes: I haven't gone to confession. I don't know how to confess this. I've been telling lies. I love you. [she hangs up] ... Ziggy: You okay, Mom? Louie: Where's dinner? Agnes: I guess I forgot. Louie: You forgot about dinner? What else you forget about? You forget about us? Agnes: I'm sorry. Just be a minute. Louie: Did you buy my cheese? Did you forget about that, too? Agnes [with a smirk on her face]: I did. Louie: You think this is funny? What's wrong with you? Ziggy: Come on, Dad. Louie: No, I slave all day for this family. I come home, and you're making puzzles? ... Louie [turning to walk away]: No. This is bullshit. Agnes: If you leave now, don't come back. ... Agnes: Ziggy, maybe instead of getting your own place, you could go back to school. Maybe culinary school. Louie: Culinary school? You want him to be a cook? Agnes: He's clearly good at it. Louie: So what? Agnes: You think it's a bad idea? Louie: Frankly, I don't think it's a very manly thing to do, is what I think. Agnes: All the great chefs today are men. Ziggy: Most. Louie: No one asked you. Agnes: Most of the great chefs today are men. Louie: How do you know that? Agnes: I looked it up online. ... Louie: What are you...? What's going on? Who's filling your head with all these new ideas? Selling the land and cooking school? This fucking competition? You know what my father would have done to my mother in this situation?...I'm not my father. I'm not him. ... Louie: I know you weren't with Emily. I called her. And Ronnie was here earlier. He said he saw you at the train station the other day. Agnes: I...I got stuck. I, uh... Louie: Please don't lie to me. Just don't lie to me, okay? You gotta tell me, Agnes. You gotta tell me everything. Agnes: I don't have to tell you anything. I'm not your servant. You don't own me. Louie: Are you having an affair? Agnes: Yes, I am. I think. Louie: You think you're having an affair? Agnes: I have a puzzle partner. He's a man. We are a team. Uh, we're competing as a team. We've had sex one time, and it wasn't good, but it wasn't bad. [Louie just shakes his head in silence] Agnes: Can you say something? [he just stands up and leaves the table] ... Robert [on the phone]: Are you all packed? Agnes: I'm with my family. Robert: Mata, you have to get to the airport at least three hours early for an international flight. You have to be here around 1:00. Security is going to take forever. Uh, did you tell Louie? Agnes: I'm not coming. Robert: Mata...Please... don't... don't do this to me. I love you. I miss you. Agnes: I'm sorry. I love you, too. I miss you, too. [she hangs up] He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film With some accomplishments we tend to remember who is the best. But with others however it is always who is the first. And that is certainly the case when it comes to landing on the Moon. The first man [and back then it could only have been a man] was Neil Armstrong. And he is the one we remember. [Perhaps what could only be more remarkable is a man or a woman who accomplishes something truly historic...and goes on to be the only one to ever have accomplished it] But for most of us what is remembered is the accomplishment itself. Few really know much about the man who accomplished it. Or all that went into the accomplishment by so many others. For many he was a "hero"; and we tend to not want our heroes to be beyond the pale. Still, like all the rest of us, he is "human all too human". But that will always mean different things to different people. Just as the accomplishment itself will always be encompassed in particular [and at times] conflicting narratives. And [of course] political prejudices. Indeed, even the film itself is said to only more or less depict "what really happened". There are the facts they either get right or wrong. And then there are the reactions to the facts that can only be encompassed in subjective vantage points. But the film is largely construed through the perspective of Neil Armstrong. And what did he get right or wrong? The irony here for me is that on the day that Armstrong did take that first step on the Moon, I was a soldier in Vietnam. Where I was there was no access to the event. And I do not recall at all what my reaction was to the feat. In fact, this film is my first in depth look at all that unfolded back then. IMDb Neil Armstrong's sons Mark Armstrong and Rick Armstrong said that First Man (2018) was the most accurate portrayal of their father and their mother, Janet Armstrong. Common errors were avoided in this film: Earth and the moon are always lit by the sun at the same angle, no clouds appear at high altitudes, the paradoxical nature of accelerating and braking rockets in orbit, the oxygen fire causes an implosion, not an explosion, no obtrusive lights hidden inside astronaut helmets to show off their faces, and there is no ambient sound in the vacuum of space. Ryan Gosling suffered an injury while filming one of the many shuttle sequences. His partner, Eva Mendes, told him to go to the hospital after noticing the bizarre behavior of his passionately ranting to her about national doughnut thieves. It was later discovered that he had suffered a concussion and Mendes had unknowingly saved his life. Armstrong's famous quote as he stepped on the moon is the subject of historical controversy. The movie quotes accurately what was heard on Earth and in all recordings: "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." Armstrong later revealed that he intended to say "... one small step for [A] man ..." and that he thought he did, but all efforts to extract this from the recording, even with electronics, have been inconclusive. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/tr ... tt_trv_trv wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Man_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/PSoRx87OO6k First Man [2018] Directed by Damien Chazelle Neil [after a harrowing test flight "ballooning" and "bouncing off the atmosphere" ]: I'm down. ... Neil [back to work after the death of his daughter]: Am I grounded, Joe? Joe: Just write the report on the bounce, okay? ... Deke: Why do you think spaceflight’s important? Neil: I had a few opportunities in the X15 to observe the atmosphere. And it’s so thin; such a small part of the earth that you barely could see it at all. When you’re down here in the crowd and you look up, it seems pretty big and you don’t think about it too much, but when you get a different vantage point, it changes your perspective... I don’t know what space exploration will uncover, but I don’t think it will be exploration just for the sake of exploration. I think it will be more the fact that it allows us to see things that maybe we should have seen a long ago but just haven’t been able to until now. ... John [Glenn]: Neil, I was sorry to hear about your daughter. Neil: I’m sorry, is there a question? John: Uh, what I mean is, do you think it will have an effect? Neil: I think it would be unreasonable to assume that it would have no effect. ... Voice [from newsreel]: Since the time of Jules Verne, man has imagined traveling to the moon and back. But making the trip as Jules Verne imagined -- in a single spaceship -- would require an enormous rocket. For this reason, NASA has come up with a new approach, lunar orbit rendezvous. The spacecraft traveling to the moon would actually consist of two, separate vehicles. A command ship that will remain in lunar orbit and a lunar lander that two crewman will take to the surface. After the men explore the surface, the lander lifts off the moon then rendezvous and docks with the command ship, which will take them back to earth. Thus, NASA will land the first men on the moon and return them safely home. ... Deke: Here’s reality. Sputnik 1, Sputnik 2, Vostok, Gagarin. The Soviets have beaten us at every single major space accomplishment. Our program couldn’t compete, so we’ve chosen to focus on a job so difficult, requiring so many technological developments, that the Russians will have to start from scratch. As will we. He means going to the Moon. Deke: If we want to get this done, we first have to prove two ships can rendezvous and dock in space. That’s the primary mission of Project Gemini. Only after we master these tasks do we move on to Apollo and consider trying to land a man on the moon. ... Gus: The Multi-Axis Trainer was designed to replicate roll coupling on three axes, the kind you might encounter in space. The challenge is to stabilize the machine before you pass out. First victim, Armstrong. Janet [wife]: You okay? Neil: Yeah... ust thinking about this lecture... it’s kinda neat. Janet: What’s neat about it? Neil: Well, it was about how to rendezvous with the Agena? If you thrust, it actually slows you down because it puts you in a higher orbit. So you have to reduce thrust and drop into a lower orbit in order to catch up. It’s backwards from what they teach you as a pilot but if you work the math, it follows. It’s kinda neat. Janet: Yeah, it’s kinda neat. [they both burst out laughing] ... Ed: I got some bad news about Elliot. Neil: No, Elliot’s in command of Gemini 9 now. I know Deke told me he bumped Elliot, but... Ed: Neil. Elliot and Charlie were flying into St. Louis to train this morning. Their T-38 crashed on approach. There was a lot of fog... ... Janet [to Neil]: Who was it? ... Buzz: Elliot wasn’t aggressive enough. You of all people have to know that. Neil: No. I don’t. I didn’t investigate the crash, I didn’t study the flight trajectory, and I wasn’t the one flying the plane, so I wouldn’t pretend to know anything. Buzz: We’ll never be 100 percent sure. ... Dave: What are you doing? Pete [fiddling with a seat belt lock]: Hey, does anybody got a Swiss Army Knife? Dave: What’d you say? A Swiss Army Knife? Cue the first fly in space. Dave: You tell them. Neil: Houston, we’re station-keeping on the Agena at about 150 feet. ... Neil [to Houston]: Flight, we are docked. ... Fucci: Gemini 8. How do you read? Neil: We have serious problems. We’re, we’re tumbling end over end up here, we’re disengaged from the Agena. Fucci: Okay. We got your spacecraft free indication here... what seems to be the problem? Neil: we’re rolling up and we can’t turn anything off. We’re continuously increasing in a left roll... Hodge: Did he say he could not turn the Agena off? Fucci: No, he says he is separated from the Agena and he’s in a roll and he can’t stop it. It’s approaching one revolution per second, at that rate they will black out in 40 seconds. [Deke gets the attention of PAO Paul Haney, motions for him cut the public feed] ... Kraft: I want emergency landing options. Deke: You don’t wanna wait to find out how much fuel he’s got left? Kraft: Bob, what do you think? Bob: I think they’d better land now. ... Deke: I need you to go home. Janet: Fine. Turn the box back on. Deke: I’ll see what I can... Janet: Now. Turn the box back on now. Deke: ...well, there’s security protocols Janet: I don’t give a damn. I’ve got a dozen reporters on my front lawn, you want me telling them what’s going on? Deke: Jan, you have to trust us, we’ve got this under control. Janet: No, you don’t. All these protocols and procedures to make it seem like you have it ‘under control’. But you’re a bunch of boys making models out of balsa wood, you don’t have anything under control. ... Hamburg Press reporter [at a news conference after astronauts return to Earth]: In the midst of the spinning did you seem to realize or feel the presence of God closer than other times? New York Times reporter: With this so hot on the heels of the loss of Charlie Bassett and Elliot See, do you question whether the program’s worth the cost? In money and in lives? ... Lovell: Well, we’re very, very bullish on Apollo, Senator. Senator: I should hope so, given the time we’ve spent developing it. Times have changed, you know. Half the country doesn’t think it’s worth it anymore. Neil: We only learned to fly sixty years ago, so I think if you consider the technological developments in the context of history, it’s really not.... Senator: I’m considering it in the context of taxpayer dollars. ... Neil [on phone at the White House]: I’m glad you called, I’m not sure if I’m helping or hurting over here. Deke: Neil, we had a problem with the plugs out test... Neil: That’s why we have tests, right? We’ll figure it out. Deke: ...there was a fire. There’s no easy way to say this...Ed, Gus and Roger, they’re gone. ... Gilruth: Neil, the political fallout from another accident... Neil: With all due respect, it’s not my job to worry about the political fallout. Deke: The damn thing could have killed you. Neil: Well, it didn’t. Deke: A split second more and... Neil: We need to fail. We need to fail down here so we don’t fail up there. Gilruth: Neil, at what cost? Huh? Neil: At what cost? It’s a little late for that question, isn’t it sir? ... News anchor: You've lately taken a couople of swipes at the space program. Kurt Vonnegut: I think it would be interesting to talk more about whether this is the proper thing to do with the public treasury. The sort of dreams I would have is a habitable New York City, for instance. ... Reporter: What has been the reaction of your friends to this? Woman: Well, they mostly think it's rediculous that we're spending so much money to go somewhere we don't know anything about. And that the money could be used for a lot more helpful things. ... Gil Scott Heron: A rat done bit my sister Nell with Whitey on the moon. Her face and arms begin to swell and Whitey’s on the moon. I can’t pay no doctor bill, but Whitey’s on the moon. Ten years from now I’ll be paying still, while Whitey’s on the moon. You know the man just upped my rent last night. Cause Whitey's on the moon. No hot water, no toilets, no lights. But Whitey's on the moon. I wonder why he's upping me? Cause Whitey's on the moon? I was already giving him like fifty a week. With Whitey on the moon. ... Buzz: It’s a political rush job. Congress wouldn’t fund us to come in second. Why else would NASA be sending a virtually untested rocket to the moon? Lovell: Thanks for the insight, Buzz. Always a pleasure with you. Buzz: Doesn’t matter. He’s not in the lunar lottery. Collins: And you are? Buzz: The only guys they let on the LLTV since Neil’s accident are the ones who might land. That's Neil or Conrad and I’m backup with Neil, so... Collins: So you think you’re going to the moon. Buzz: It’s been up for grabs since Gus died. they all glare at him] Buzz: I’m just saying what you’re thinking. Neil: Well, maybe you shouldn’t. ... Cronkite [on TV]: And so, the flight of Apollo 10 has performed the major function of its mission. It has proved through these daring three astronauts that all of the systems work properly and that there should be no reason why man cannot, perhaps as early as July, land on that picked spot on the moon’s equator... These are sailors of the sky and what we’ve seen and heard today make the great ocean voyages of the earthbound seem, well, earthbound indeed. ... Janet: Neil, I need you to talk to the boys. Can you hear me? I need you to talk the boys. What are you doing? Neil: I’m going to work. Janet [angrily]: Well, just stop it. Just stop, just stop packing. What are the chances you’re not coming back? What are the chances this is the last time the boys are gonna see you? Neil: I can’t give you an exact number. Janet: I don’t want a fucking number, Neil! It’s not zero. Is it? Is it? Neil: No. Janet: No, it’s not. Pat doesn’t have a husband, those kids, they don’t have a father anymore. Do you understand what that means? What are the chances that’s gonna be Ricky and Mark? And I can't tell them that their dad spent the last few minutes packing his briefcase. You’re gonna sit them down now, both of them, and you’re gonna prepare them for the fact that you might not ever come home. You’re doing that. You. Not me. I’m done. So you better start thinking about what you’re gonna say. ... Mark [son]: Jimmy asked what you’re going to say when you get on to the moon. Neil: Well, we’re not sure we’re gonna get on to the moon, a lot of things have to go right before that happens. Mark: How long will you be gone? Neil: Well, we launch in ten days. We’ll be up for eight. And then about a month in quarantine. Mark: What’s quarantine? Neil: We’ll be in isolation. To protect in case we, uh, carry any diseases from the lunar surface, or something of that nature. It’s not likely, but it’s a precaution. Ricky: Do you think you’re coming back? Neil: We have real confidence in the mission. And there are some risks, but we have every intention of coming back. Ricky: But you might not. Neil [after a long pause]: That's right. ... Gilruth: The White House sent down a contingency statement in the event of a Moon disaster. [he rerads from a paper] Gilruth: "Fate has ordained that the men who went to the moon to explore in peace will stay on the moon to rest in peace. These brave men, Neil Armstrong and Edwin Aldrin, know there is no hope for their recovery. They will be mourned by their families; they will be mourned by a Mother Earth that dared send two of her sons into the unknown. Others will follow, and surely find their way home. But these men were the first, and they will remain the foremost in our hearts. For every human being who looks up at the moon in nights to come will know there is some corner of another world that is forever mankind. Prior to the statement, President will telephone each of the widows-tobe. A clergyman will adopt the same procedure as a burial at sea, commending their souls to the deepest of the deep." ... Neil [to CAPCON]: The eagle has wings.... ... Neil: Pretty rocky area. Buzz: Those boulders are as big as cars. We can’t land there. ... Neil: Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed. CAPCOM: Roger Tranquility, we copy you on the ground. You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We’re breathing again, thanks a lot. ... Neil: That’s one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind... ... Newscaster [on TV]: And in Washington, an anonymous citizen has placed a small bouquet on the grave of John F Kennedy with a note, “Mr. President, the Eagle has landed.” And indeed, on this day, it’s hard not to think back upon that speech our 35th President gave at Rice University just seven short years ago... ... Kennedy [from old news clip]: But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why fly the Atlantic? We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard... He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film The movie was absolutely beautiful, the flight scenes fucking insane, but it was ruined for me by the lack of respect for the grandiosity of the moment of landing on the Moon. It would not have diminished the psychological study of Armstrong, but accentuated it by placing it in scale with a moment of such magnitude. But in those 2 or 3 minutes he turned the whole movie into a fucking emo song. Pedro I Rengel ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ Posts: 13089 Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm ### Re: philosophy in film As race becomes increasingly more problematic these days [who knows where America is headed], some will clearly be more impacted by it than others. Black folks for example. Here, in particular, Starr Carter. Starr makes the daily trek back and forth between "two worlds". She lives in a "poor, mostly black neighborhood" but gets her education in a "wealthy, mostly white prep school". So there are basically two of her. At least in the beginning of the film. Then one day both worlds collide when she is a witness to a shooting. A white cop shoots and kills a black childhood friend. The community reacts. But, as in many communities these days, the narratives can pop up anywhere along the political divide. And then the exploration into what exactly constitutes racism in our world today --- all of the "complexities" involved. Or, as one IMDb reviewer puts it, "I think the author of the book that this film is based on, understands the frustrating fact that some of the worst issues that need fixing have no quick and easy solutions, and are complex and take time for the human mind to understand -- especially to the minds of those who aren't being affected / victimized, who inevitably take longer to understand." Just imagine the reactions of some here. And not only the knee-jerk Kids. In some respects however this is like a Young Adult version of these worlds colliding. The way in which some might imagine it all to be if they were not really a part of either world themselves. I certainly have never been. So I have no way of knowing how realistic it all is. Still, America's "youth culture" is often portrayed here almost entirely as I imagine it to be. Most of them being completely self-absorbed and oblivious to the systemic nature of political economy. IMDb Kian Lawley was initially cast as Chris but was replaced by KJ Apa after videos surfaced on YouTube of Lawley using racially offensive slurs. The Hate U Give is adapted from the novel "The Hate U Give" by Angie Thomas published in 2017. It is after the death of the young Oscar Grant at Fruitvale Station in 2009 that the young woman, then a student, writes a short story on police violence against the African-American population. A few years later, as the country faced other such events that led to the birth of the Black Lives Matter protest movement, she decided to make it a book through which she could express her entire life anger: "The Hate U Give" is a real card and Hollywood offers the rights quickly. The title of the film and Angie Thomas's novel refers to the concept of THUG LIFE - the acronym for The Hate U Give Little Infants Fucks Everybody (the hatred we inculcate in children eventually destroys us all) - developed by the rapper Tupac Shakur. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5580266/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hate_U_Give_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/3MM8OkVT0hw The Hate U Give [2018] Directed by George Tillman Jr. Mav: Now, when it happens, don't act mad. You gotta look calm. Answer their questions, but don't tell 'em nothin' extra. Keep your hands out your pockets. You drop somethin', leave that shit where it's at. Lisa [wife]: Maverick. Mav: Leave that stuff where it's at. My bad. Now, one day, y'all gonna be with me, and you best bet we gonna get pulled over. That don't mean I did somethin' wrong. Maybe I made a mistake driving or maybe I ain't do nothin' at all. You gonna see me with my hands like this. Flat on the dashboard. Now, you keep your hands posted 'cause moving makes the police get all nervous. If I ain't with you, you ask for me. It can get real dangerous, so don't argue with them...but keep your hands where they can see 'em. This how you gonna act. We straight? Starr [voiceover]: I was nine years old when I first got "the talk". Mav [handing her a sheet of paper]: Now, this the Black Panther Ten-Point Program. This our own Bill of Rights. I want you to learn it. 'Cause Imma ask you about it. Imma quiz you. Lisa: Really, Maverick? Know your rights. Know your worth...? ... Starr [voiceover]: Mama thinks Daddy is scared of change. She left the Garden when she was a little girl. And she wants us to get out too. Either way, you gotta stay ready. 'Cause Garden Heights is always gonna be ready for you...And then there's King. He runs the King Lords. My dad used to be his right-hand man. The high school is where you go to get jumped, high, pregnant, or killed. We don't go there. Not since what happened to my friend Natasha. So Mama sent us to another school where everyone's college-bound... ... Starr [voiceover]: Garden Heights is one world. Williamson is another. And I gotta keep it separate. So when I'm here, I'm Starr Version Two. That means flipping a switch in my brain. Williamson Starr doesn't use slang. If a rapper would say it, she doesn't. Even if her white friends do. Slang makes them "cool". Slang makes me "hood."...Williamson Starr is approachable. No stank eyes or yelling because Williamson Starr is non-confrontational. Basically, Williamson Starr doesn't give anyone a reason to call her ghetto. And I hate myself for doing it. ... Hailey [her white friend]: Let me at him. I'll kick his ass. If someone tries to do some shit to my girl, I have to get him. I'm serious, Starr. I will go after him. I will kick his ass. I do not care. You just say the word. Starr [voiceover]: Hailey must've watched Straight Outta Compton again last night... ... Starr: Look, Chris is great, but I'm just not ready. And eventually, I'll get there, but he just assumed. Hailey: Assuming. Punishable by death. So, you're gonna Taylor Swift this? Starr: She doesn't even rank on the angry girlfriend scale anymore. Nah. I'm gonna Beyonce his ass. Starr [voiceover]: I really wanna "Elevator Solange" his ass. ... Starr [after Khalil turns on some music in his car]: Man, so you gonna come at me for my music while you listening to this old stuff? Khalil: Oh, old stuff? You better get up out my car with that. Tupac is the truth. Starr: Yeah, 20 years ago. Khalil: No, even still, right now. Listen, let me tell you something. Pac said, THUG LIFE. It means, "The Hate U Give Little Infants Fucks Everybody." T-H-U-G-L-I-F-E. Starr: Meaning what? Khalil: Meaning what society gives to us when we little comes back to bite them in the ass when we grow up, and we wild out. You get that? Starr: Damn. Yeah. Khalil: Pac's gonna always be relevant. ... Starr: So you gonna tell me why you really been busy, Khalil? Khalil: Because that McJob that I had didn't make nothin' happen. And plus grandma got fired from the hospital when they found out she was sick. Starr: Damn, that's messed up, K, for real. Khalil: You know, we got needs. Starr: If you selling that stuff... Khalil: Hey, come on now. Mind your business, Starr-Starr. Don't worry about me. I'm doing what I gotta do. ... Starr [after a cop shoots Khalil]: What did you do?! Cop: Be quiet, ma'am. Starr: Help him! Cop: I want you to stay where you are! Do not move, okay? Starr: He's bleeding! Help him! Come on! He's bleeding! Cop: Where is it? Where's the weapon? The gun! Where is it?!! [it was a hairbrush] ... Detective Gomez: Starr, do you know why Khalil reached into the car? Starr: I think he was checking to see that I was okay. Detective: You think? You don't know? Starr: No, I don't know. Detective: Because? Starr; Because that's when it happened. The actual incident was ambiguous. The cop pulled them over for not signaling a lane change. He shot Khalil because he took his hands off the top of the car, reached into the car and pulled out a hairbrush. The cop thought it was a gun. Detective: Did you drink alcohol at the party? Starr: No, I don't drink. Detective: Did Khalil? Starr: Not that I saw. Detective: Did you ever see Khalil sell narcotics? Starr: No, I never personally saw Khalil sell drugs or do drugs. Detective: But you knew that he did? Lisa: You have not asked my daughter one question about the cop. Detective: We just want the whole picture, miss. That's all. Lisa: Well, you ask questions about what happened. Starr: 115 killed Khalil. And he didn't do anything wrong. So I don't know what more of a bigger picture you need! ... Mav: So what's the deal? His ass in jail? Carlos [a black cop and friend of the family]: They're gonna place him on paid administrative leave. Starr: That's it? After he killed Khalil? Carlos: Starr, there will be a full investigation. Mav: Cops investigating cops, huh? You know they should've charged his racist ass with murder. But that ain't gonna happen, is it, Uncle Carlos? Carlos: Nothing like this has ever happened with this officer before. Mav: Oh, first-timer. Let's cut him a break. ... Starr [voiceover to herself]: Grand jury. Stuff like this ends up on the news. People get death threats. Cops target them. What will it mean at school? Will I suddenly be the poor girl from the hood who saw her friend get killed? I just gotta be quiet. ... Friend: So you famous now. Starr: What? Friend: I saw you leave with Khalil. Now you all jittery and jumpy and shit. It's you, Starr. Don't even lie. You ready to stir some shit up? Starr: What you mean? Friend: Well, you was there, so you gotta tell everybody what happened. You're gonna stand up for Khalil, right? Listen, Brenda can't be the only one talking. You know Khalil would've stood tall and spoke for you. ... King: Hey, Starr. Remember what I told you, all right? You keep that shit in your rearview. ... Lisa: I'm telling you. He was threatening her! Mav: He ain't gonna hurt her. Lisa: He will. If he thinks that Starr is gonna tell the police that Khalil worked for him, he will. And then what? Hmm? He's gonna rope you right back in. Once a King Lord, always a King Lord. Mav: When you spend three years in lockup doing somebody else's time, ain't no roping back in. He let me out. That was our deal. ... Lisa: You listen! It's okay to make sacrifices for your family. God! Do you think that my mother moved me and Carlos out of Garden Heights and into that Catholic school so we could learn how to pray? No. I'm gonna make sure that my kids have it at least as good as I did. If not, what's the point? Mav: That's why we have them up there in that school! Lisa: And what do you think that school will do when they find out that Starr was with Khalil? Hmm? Those white folks, they love to boast about how diverse that school is, but you know what? This is too much diversity for them. ... Starr: It's THUG LIFE. "The Hate U Give Little Infants..." Mav; "F's Everybody." I know what it stands for. What do you think it means? Starr: I think it's about more than just the youth. I think it's about us. Mav: Us who? Starr: Black people. Poor people. Everybody at the bottom. Mav: Right, you on it. Pac was trying to school us on how the system's designed against us. Why else you think so many people in our neighborhood deal? Starr: They need the money. Mav: Yeah. And there ain't no real jobs around here, so they fall into the trap. Drugs a multi-billion-dollar industry. Brothers like me and Khalil get caught up 'cause it look like a way out. But that shit is flown into our communities...and I don't know nobody with a private jet. Do you? And then they trap us. And we end up in prison, another billion-dollar hustle. And they got us riding through there like we on a conveyor belt. That's how I end up in prison with my daddy. Son: You went to jail with your own daddy? Mav: Yep. But when I caught up with him, wasn't nothin' he can do to help me. He was just a weak, old man with regrets. And his light was gone. And I swore that would never be me. Because Imma break the cycle for my kids. ... April [addressing the congregation]: I'm April Ofrah, a lawyer with Just Us For Justice. Just before the service, I was informed that the police have no intentions of arresting the officer who murdered this young man. Despite having a credible eyewitness. This is the last place I wanted to be today. And I know I'm not alone. But here we are again. Violence, brutality. It's the same story, just a different name.Today's name is Khalil Harris. Another unarmed, young, black man. What does that tell us? Shamell Bell said it best. "It is impossible to be unarmed when our blackness is the weapon that they fear." And I refuse to let our blackness be seen as a weapon or as a weakness. That is why the Harris family and I ask you to join us after the service...for a peaceful march past the police station. Division is how they win. Unity is how they crumble. ... April: Khalil can't speak for himself. He needs a voice. Starr is it. Lisa: I don't like this already. Mav: Lisa, just hear her on out. Aprtil: Starr, do you understand what a grand jury is? Starr: Yeah. It's where they decide if somebody should go to trial. April: Right. It's when they decide if charges should be brought against Officer Macintosh. Lisa: Will they indict him? April: 99 percent of the time, the grand jury indicts. Mav: What about that one percent they don't? April: Those cases almost always involve a cop. Starr: But that won't happen this time, because I saw everything. April: When Khalil was shot, where were you exactly? Starr: In the passenger seat. April: Have any proof of what you saw? Like, did you record it on a phone? Starr: Nah, the officer told me to drop it. Seven: So Khalil will never have his day in court? All 'cause a cop shot him? April: That's why our trial begins now. On the streets, in the media. Starr is Khalil's only witness. Mav: All right. Where do we start? April: With a TV interview. Lisa: No. I know what you're fighting for, but I fight for Starr. And I won't put her at risk. ... Starr [as April is about to leave]: My other best friend was murdered when we were both ten. We were playing basketball on the sidewalk. When this car rolled by...and this tatted hand pulled out a gun. We must have been in the way. It was three shots. And she was on the ground. And I remember... I remember she looked really scared...because she was about to see what happens after you die. And I know who did it. Lisa: What? Starr, you never told us that. Starr: It was a King Lord. He missed me once...and I didn't want to give him another chance, so I didn't snitch. And then I heard a few months later that he got killed. So I didn't say anything. Now tell me, Miss Ofrah...what kind of friend is that? April: You can't blame yourself for that, Starr. You were young. You are young. Starr: I wanna be a better friend for Khalil. But goin' on TV...I don't know about all that. ... Lisa: So, just 'cause some dumb, privileged white kids skip class, you think it's okay for you to leave school too? Well, guess what, Starr. Both in unison: It is what it is. Starr: I know, Mama. But they're acting like Khalil was murdered just so that they can skip a chem test. And I didn't do anything about it. Mama...I need to speak for him. ... John: Let me guess. You're Starr. Starr, thank you so much for having the courage to do this. Diane's very excited to have you. We even bumped a segment to make sure yours airs tonight. Lisa: And you're sure the thing we talked about is happening? John: It's arranged. They've agreed to blur Starr's face. No one watching will ever know it's her. ... Diane [interviewing Starr for a TV segment]: You are the only witness to the shooting death of a young, unarmed black man by a police officer. Now, millions of people across the country have heard the name Khalil Harris. Who was he to you? Starr; We knew each other since we were babies but if he was here, he would probably say... that he was actually five months, two weeks, and one day older than me. Diane: He was a kid. Starr: Yep. Diane: What do you think about the people that are only focusing on the not-so-good aspects of Khalil? That he sold drugs. Starr: Well, if they knew why, then they wouldn't talk about him like that. Diane: Why did he sell them? Starr: Khalil's mom loved him, but she was an addict so there was no one to bring in money to help his little brother... and his grandma who has cancer. So he had to take the only available job in the neighborhod that would pay him enough to help them. Diane: Available job? Starr: Dealing for the biggest drug dealers in Garden Heights. The King Lords. Diane: So there's one gang that controls your entire neighborhood? Tell me about that. Starr: Why are you only asking me about that? I mean, next week, I'll be called to testify in a grand jury investigation, but no one wants to know what actually happened. Everyone wants to know what Khalil did. What he said, what he didn't do. Like it's his fault. I didn't know that a dead person could be charged with his own murder. Diane: If Officer Macintosh were sitting here now...what would you say to him? Starr: I'd ask him if he wished that he shot me too. ... Reporter [on TV]: Officer Brian Macintosh Junior has been on the force for five years. A majority of those years serving in Garden Heights, known for its high crime rate, with murders up 15 percent this year alone. Officers have struggled for years to rein in the violence. Changes in policies, gangs, and drugs have remained an issue for this predominantly African American community. Father [on TV]: Brian is a good boy. People, they're making him out to be a monster. He's afraid to go out in public, even for a gallon of milk. There's been threats against his life. Our family's lives. Hailey: Wow. That sucks. That poor family. Starr: What? Hailey: His son was only trying to do his job and protect himself. His life matters too, you know....That cop's life matters also. Are you gonna be mad because I said that, too? Starr: Yeah. Because you think that his life matters more than the person that you said you were protesting for. That's a problem. You unfollowed my Tumblr after the protest. Why? Was it the picture of Emmett Till that did it? Did you sympathize with his poor family before you looked away? Hailey: Okay. Maya, now she's calling me a racist. ... Starr: Have you ever seen somebody die? Chris: No. Starr: Well, I have twice now. That's why my parents put me and my brothers in Williamson. To protect us. And now...it's like I have to hide who I am every single day. When I'm at home, I can't be too Williamson. When I'm here, I can't act too Garden Heights. Khalil was my first crush. My first kiss. And he was going through so much shit...and I didn't even know... because I turned my back on him. I turned my back on all of my people. Do you even know what that's like? Chris: No. And I'm sorry, Starr. I really am. But black, white...nobody gives a shit. We're all the same. Starr: But we're not. Y'all wanna act black, but you get to keep your white privilege. You think playing ball and jumping in some lame-ass Williamson cypher makes you understand what it is to be black? It doesn't. Chris: Starr, I just told you I don't see color. I see people for who they are. The exact same way I see you. Starr: If you don't see my blackness, you don't see me. Chris: I see you. ... Mav: Who's this? Starr: Daddy, this is Chris. Mav: Who's Chris? Starr: Chris is my boyfriend. Mav: You got a boyfriend? Lisa: Well, who do you think she went to prom with? Mav: You got a white boyfriend? Lisa: Uh, Daddy, he's not my white boyfriend. He's just my boyfriend. Mav: That boy is white. ... Carlos: Someone's trying to scare you about the grand jury tomorrow. Did it work? Starr: Why do we need a grand jury to decide if this should go to trial? Carlos: Some people don't see what happened to Khalil as a crime. They see it as a traffic stop gone wrong. A lot goes through a cop's mind when they pull someone over. Especially if they have to get into a pissing contest with the driver about why they stopped him. It sets off an alarm. The officer thinks..."Are they hiding somethin'? Is the car stolen?" Now, if there's a girl in the passenger seat like you... "Does she look all right? Has she been beaten or raped?" If they start talking to each other and not the officer, we figure they might be trying to distract. What are they hiding in the car? Drugs? A weapon? Now, if the driver starts to insult the officer, we try to verbally get control of the situation. But if they still don't comply, then we... we have to use force. Starr: But you still don't know if they did anything wrong. Carlos: That's why we search them. To make sure that they don't have a weapon. We run their license and instruct them not to move. But if they open the door... or reach through an open window... they're probably goin' for a weapon. So if I think I see a gun...I don't hesitate. I shoot. Starr: You shoot? Because you think you see a gun? You don't say something first? Like, "Put your hands up"? Carlos: It depends. Is it night? Can I see? Am I on duty alone? Starr: What if you were in a white neighborhood? And it was a white man wearing a suit, driving a Mercedes? He could be a drug dealer, right? Carlos: He could. Starr: So if you saw him... reach into the window... and you thought that you saw a gun... would you shoot him? Or would you say, "Put your hands up"? Carlos: I'd say, "Put your hands up." Starr: Do you hear what you just said? Carlos: We live in a complicated world, Starr. Starr: No. No, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. ... Hailey: So, I guess you're not gonna get over it anytime soon? Starr: Get over it? Hailey: Yes. Get over it. Starr: You can't even see that you're acting racist, huh? Hailey: 'Cause I'm not. Starr: It's all "our," and "us," and "black lives matter, girl" until you clutch your purse when you're in the elevator with a black person. You don't need to use the N-word and use a firehose on black people to be racist, Hailey. Hailey: You're different, Starr. Starr: I'm different? What, I'm the nonthreatening black girl? Hailey: Yeah. You are. Your friend wasn't. He was a drug dealer. Someone was probably gonna kill him eventually. Maya: Are you serious, Hailey? Hailey: Yes. The officer did see a weapon. Starr: He saw a hairbrush. Hailey: That looked like a weapon. Starr [grabbing Hailey's hairbrush from her pockebook]: What's this in my hand right now? You're gonna tell me that this looks like a weapon? Hailey: In his hand, yes. Starr: What about in my hand? Huh? Huh? Does it look like a weapon? Does it look like a weapon now?!! ... Starr [after King beat up Seven]: Iesha, what happened? What happened? Iesha: You snitched and earned an ass whoopin'. My baby took it for you. Bleedin' all on my floor and shit. Get him outta here. ... Starr: Hey, is it true? Protestor: Cop goes free. No trial, nothing. The grand jury didn't indict. ... Starr [into a megaphone at a street protest]: My...my name is Starr! And I'm the one who saw what happened to Khalil! I am the witness! But so are y'all! We are all witnesses to this injustice! We see it all! And we will not stop until the world sees it too! We will not stop protesting! Everyone wants to talk abot how Khalil died. This ain't about how Khalil died. It's about how he lived. Khalil lived! His life mattered! ... Starr [voiceover]: No matter what we say...no matter how loud we shout...They refuse to hear us. ... Starr [to a couple pf white cops]: How many of us have to die before y'all get it? No more. For many though it will be just another rendition of Rodney King's, "why can't we all just get along?" And the ending just another idealistic wishing for the world to be a better place. And I]that[/I] comes to pass for a political narrative. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Imagine the odds of something like this happening... Four men are killed by the police in an attempted heist. Or was it three? Their widows [who have "nothing in common"] get together to pull off a heist themselves. Carry on Hollywood. Still, it is directed by Steve McQueen. And co-written by Gillian Flynn. The cast is stellar. And it garnered a 91% fresh rating at RT. In part, it's the age old story of women who go about the business of living more or less ordinary lives thrust into a situation in which crossing over to the dark side allows them to gain considerably more substantive [substantial] lives. If, of course, that is an age old story. It does pop up rather frequently [for both men and women] in the cinema. At least I'm assuming it does. Then this part: Contemporary Chicago. The backdrop for it all. There are criminals both in and out of the government. And it is always about the Benjamins. And class and race and the politics of gender. Corruption and cynicism go hand in hand. Unless of course you are still an idealist. Not many them around here though. Basically, it is a film in which almost everything has already been covered over and over again "at the movies". As one IMDb reviewer put it: "Woman power. Black power. Racist old white men. Corrupt politicians. Abusive husbands. Cheating white husbands. Racist cops. Men are bad. Women are strong and good." Of course you'll have to decide for yourself if the list is either too long or too short. Bottom line: With films like this the cliches will either seem fresh or stale. And you'll get drawn into them anyway or you won't. And, for what it's worth, it's based on [of all things] "a 1980s British TV show": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widows_(TV_series) IMDb According to Steve McQueen, Colin Farrell and Robert DuVall improvised many of their scenes. This was Steve McQueen's first film as a director since his Academy Award-winning film 12 Years a Slave (2013). Olivia the dog had her own trailer on the set. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4218572/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widows_(2018_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/nN2yBBSRC78 Widows [2018] Written in part and directed by Steve McQueen Carlos: What, you accusing me of stealing your money? Linda: Why do you look surprised? You do it for a living. Carlos: Where you get the balls? What I do for this family. I risk my life. Linda: Yeah. You risk your life and then you piss it up a wall. ... Jack: My father always thought it was a good idea to keep the lines of communication open with his opponent. Keep things honest, dignified. Jamal: Maybe he could be more honest and open about whatever deal he made with the city council to call this special election instead of waiting until February like the law says. He had to step down. Jack: He had a heart attack. Who does waiting serve? Jamal: Everyone who's not named Mulligan. Jack: First time I've run for office. I'm already ahead of you by 12 points in the polls. The Mulligans have run the 18th ward for 60 years. My grandfather, my father. These days it's all about name recognition. You wanna go against me? Jamal: You don't inherit a ward, Jack. You run for it. Jack: You have much experience in government? Jamal: I live here. Jack: So do I. Jamal: No, no, no. You, uh, own a house one block into the ward. A house people might actually want to live in. Jack: It's a smart idea. Running headquarters from a church. I mean, it's illegal. There's that whole church and state thing. Jamal: More illegal than nepotism? Jack: Nepotism isn't illegal. It's actually celebrated. This is Chicago. Jamal: Your daddy can put you on some commission where people don't have no say. Let you be a big boy, play with a few trains, but... Jack: Extending the Green Line is the best thing for the people of the 18th ward. Brings them closer to jobs, closer to culture. Jamal: Those people don't seem to be the ones getting rich though, Jack. Jack: What about you, Jamal? What have you been doing to improve the lives of the people of Chicago? I bet your reputation's a real problem for your communications team. Jatemme: Maybe you the one who need the communications team. Jamal: I've never been arrested. Let's see if you can say that a few months from now. ... Jatemme: Why you wanna go into politics anyway, man? Passing bills and shit. Whatever the fuck they do. Jamal: Alderman of this ward makes a$104,000 a year.
Jatemme: Shit, we make more than that in a week.
Jamal: But then you add in the juice, right? He gives his friend a contract for a new building, gets a kickback. Gives his brother a contract for construction. Hell, he give his mama a contract for construction. That man owns a piece of every fucking thing. The only people coming after him, they got cameras and microphones. People coming after us with guns. I'm 37 years old, Jatemme. I don't want this life no more. I want his fucking life.

...

Tom [father]:Did you get him to concede? Go back to his normal business? Now, let me tell you something. I don't wanna see you become the first Mulligan...to lose to a nigger. Especially this guy. He's tricky. Okay?
Jack: He's staying in.

...

Jack: Maybe you shouldn't have been such a hard-ass. Now, if you'd have just rolled over for the mayor on that housing development...
Tom: I don't roll over for anybody! Okay? He had his agenda, I had mine.
Jack: Look where that's got us. The lines of the ward are redrawn and we're down 7,000 votes that would've gone our way. You created this problem. Now we might be left without a pot to piss in.

...

Jamal: I didn't know your husband, not really. But he stole two million dollars from me. He stole it...right out of a van like he knew where it would be. I just wanna know why.
Veronica: I'm not involved in my husband's business at all and I don't know why you're here.

...

Jamal: You see, that money was meant to buy me a new life, help with my campaign. You understand?
Veronica: Listen, I don't have your money. Now, why don't you just go out and make more?
Veronica: I told you. I don't know anything...
Jamal: No, and even if that's true, you have a nice penthouse here. You got a lot of nice furniture, you got cars, you got a closet full of clothes, none of which burnt up in the van, by the way. I'll give you one month to liquidate.
Veronica: I'll call the police.
Jamal: Mrs. Rawlings, do you know what the police did the night that Harry died? Do you? They laughed. They laughed over his melted, burnt body, and they scraped whatever they could into a bag and they went to a bar to celebrate, because they give zero fucks about Harry Rawlings' fucking widow. You're nothing now. Welcome back...One month.

...

Jack: Have you ever slept with a black guy?
Siobhan: What does that have to do with Jamal, or anything?
Jack: Just answer the fucking question.
Siobhan: We are in a situation where you could lose everything. You've got the IG's office and the Feds breathing down your neck. You got Jamal Manning climbing in the polls, and all you're concerned with is whether or not your dick is bigger than his?
Jack: What are we fighting for? This? You know how many shootings happened in this city last weekend alone? Thirty-four! These people are killing each other! This is not where I wanna raise my children. What are we fighting for exactly? I feel suffocated!...I never wanted to be in this fucking business and that's all this is. It's a fucking business!
Siobhan: Wake the fuck up, Jack. You are not going to pussy out now. What are you gonna do? Work in a bank? Take the train downtown, punch a clock? This is your life! This is our life. It's what we do. Everyone has a fucking sob story, most of them better than yours. So, if the idea is to be mayor one day, you'd better man the fuck up!
Jack [utterly resigned]: Jesus. Dollar signs and empty promises. Anybody who thinks different are fooling themselves.

...

Veronica: Listen. We're in trouble. It was Jamal Manning's money that our husbands stole.
Linda: Who's that?
Alice: Somebody you don't wanna fuck with.
Veronica: The money burnt up in the van, and Jamal Manning, he wants it back. Harry left me the plans for his next job. It's worth five million dollars. I take two million, give it to the Mannings. We split the rest....Listen, our lives are in danger. Our husbands aren't coming back. We're on our own.

...

Reverend [to a black congregation]: It seems people are blissful in their own ignorance. How far have we fallen? Indeed, how far have we fallen? We are living in an environment where people are blind! What you don't see, you don't know. Out of sight, out of mind. So now ignorance is the new normal. In fact, ignorance...Ignorance is the new excellence. The less you know the more seemingly you gain. Not to care is deemed to be smart. When you subtract love from any equation, from any situation, from any location, the result is always hurt and pain on all sides. That is why we need to bring love back into the equation. Love. In Jesus' words, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." So he can hear you on high, say it with me. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor - as thyself."

And then once the congregation is gone...

Jamal: So you're endorsing the Mulligans. Can we go now?
Reverend: I didn't say that. The ward has been redrawn. The Mulligans weren't playing ball. For the first time, someone like us has a shot. I'd be an idiot to ignore that.
Jamal: I'm gonna cut to the chase here, Reverend. I'm in the driving seat, I just don't have a set of wheels. All I need is your endorsement and your contribution to help me get across the finish line.
Reverend: How much of a contribution do you need? And what's it worth to you?
Jamal's associate: You mean worth in terms of funding? I can fill you in on that, but what matters is that you're with us.
The Reverend's phone rings]
Reverend: Someone's ears are burning. Gentlemen, let's discuss this further another time. One always must weigh out options.
Reverend [into the phone]: Jack Mulligan. How are you, my brother? No, you know me. Praising Jesus, as always.

...

Veronica: This money is for the guns.
Alice: Guns?
Veronica: Three Glocks. Ammo, too. No more than $2,000. Alice: Me? From where? Veronica: It's America. ... Alice: What are you doing here? Veronica: I didn't know where else to go. ... Veronica: They killed Bash. Alice: Who did? Veronica: The Mannings. Alice: What? How do you know? Veronica: I know. I'm not Harry. All this damage, I... I can't be responsible for all of it. Alice: Why do you have to be? Veronica: Because I don't own anything. Not even the apartment I live in. I have nothing. Alice: We can't tell Linda about Bash. She'll back out. ... Amanda [to Harry]: We should have left sooner, like you said we would. You always want more. ... Harry [to Jack]: Your medical examiner friend open his mouth yet? ... Harry: What about that detective scumbag, Fuller? Jack: He's just happy that you'll never show your face in Chicago again. He's retiring a wealthy man. Harry: You know, your guys went a little heavy on the accelerants. I was lucky to get away with half of that. Jack: I want the full amount, Harry. One million, like we agreed. Harry: I thought this was about stopping the Mannings? Jack: Don't think you can fuck me over like you did your crew. ... Jack: I want that money. Harry: I can get your money, but I need time. Jack: Before the election. If not...you're gonna be alive again. In all the worst ways. ... Alice: Is everything just a transaction? David: They brought us these drinks, next they're gonna bring us the bill. It's the way the world works, as far as I'm concerned. ... Linda: Belle, can you drive? Belle: Why? ... Tom: Let me get this straight. You fire Hillsman. He's been working with our family for 30 years. So you just put a bullet in him. When the polls drop to, what, three percent? Why? Why? Jack: I got a new guy coming on. Black guy. British. Tom: Black guy? Oh, really? A black guy. Jack: Gavin Cunningham. - What? Tom: Fuck me and fuck him! Fuck you and fuck the fucking horse you came in on! You fucking asshole! What a fucking asshole you are! Talk about loyalty. Hey! Maybe I'll call the mayor and tell him we gotta have this election tomorrow, before things get any worse. Jack: You won't call the mayor. I will take care of Manning at the debate, and that will be the end of it. Might I add, running in your shadow would be a hell of a lot easier if there weren't piles of shit scattered everywhere I walk! Tom: Keep your fucking mouth shut, or I'll fucking whip your ass! Today! I can still do it. Believe me. Okay? JFK, huh? You think you're gonna make things better. They're not gonna be any better. You think you're gonna change things? Change them to what? You're not gonna change anything! They'll never change under you. The only thing that matters is that we survive. That's all. Look around you. It's like Custer's Last Stand. It's kill or be killed. Now, listen to me, son. Listen, we made this city. We're not having it taken away from us by people who come here illegally... or by people who can't stop, you know...making babies. That means staying in power...at all costs. You got that? Yeah? Jack: You listen to me, Father. I'm looking forward to the day when all this bullshit is over and I don't have to talk to people like you. Because...Because you won't be here anymore. ... Veronica: From what I understand, we both have a Jamal Manning problem. Jack: You don't...You don't live in my ward, Mrs. Rawlings. But if you're aware of a crime, you should really go to the police. Veronica: Mr. Mulligan, you said whenever I needed help. Now, your family's been involved in Harry's life for many years. When I say help...I mean help. Jack: I understand, but...I'm not my father. As you can see, the years have taken a toll on him...and I do not want to go down that same road. So with much admiration and respect for your late husband and yourself, of course... I don't see what I can do. What I've learned from men like my father...and Harry...is that you reap what you sow. Veronica: Let's hope so. ... Veronica: Now, all of our work is worth nothing if we don't move this money and fast. The notebook says five million dollars. That's exactly the amount of money Mulligan was accused of taking in commission kickbacks. So over here we have two million dollars. Twenty Tupperware boxes. Each box has 100,000 dollars in 100-dollar bills. It weighs 44 pounds. Now, over here we have two million dollars. Forty Tupperware boxes. Each box has 50,000 dollars in 50-dollar bills. It weighs 88 pounds....Now, that bag had double the weight of before. Linda: Why the fuck would you do that? Veronica: Because I had to think of the best-case scenario and the worst-case scenario. We gotta move fast. We gotta start thinking like professionals. We're in business together. There's not gonna be some cozy reunion. After this job, we're done. We have three days to look and move like a team of men. The best thing we have going for us is being who we are. Why? Because no one thinks we have the balls to pull this off. ... Veronica: Everybody ready? Linda: You got the codes? Veronica: Something goes wrong...you're all on your own. ... Jamal [at the debate]: Chicago is a city in free fall. Money, greed, avarice. Fat cats in city hall getting fatter on our meals. Yeah. We, the people, are not people to them. We are a mass of ugly need they don't want to see. Let us have a chance at life. Not just to exist, but to live. And how corrupt and cynical is this? Harry: Yeah. It was meant to be simple. Why couldn't you just sell the book to Jamal and leave it at that, Ronnie? You're not supposed to be here. Veronica: You left me alone, you evil bastard. Wanted to start a new life with your new son, your new white, happy family. Harry: I couldn't save him, Ronnie! I couldn't save us! I had to save me! Me!...I need the money. ... News reporter: Muted celebrations in the Mulligan camp as Tuesday's election results sink in. In a late rally, there was a resounding victory for Jack Mulligan, seen as a sympathy vote following the murder of Alderman Tom Mulligan. Reverend John Wheeler was outside the Mulligan residence this morning to talk to reporters. Reverend: Brothers and sisters, we ask that you keep Jack Mulligan in your prayers as he tries to find the strength, with God's help, to begin his term of office and to continue the program of change initiated by his beloved father. I know you remember all the good work the Mulligans have done for this community. So we hope that you will join us Sunday. We will be holding a service for Tom Mulligan to pay our respects to this great servant of our ward. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Let's just say that if you are in a bank that is being robbed, there are some bank robbers you'd rather encounter more than others. And this is the "mostly true" story of one -- Forrest Tucker -- you might [almost] not mind encountering at all. In fact, "the public" became rather "enchanted" with hm. Especially as, more and more, he continues to "confound" the authorities. In fact one detective in particular becomes rather enchanted himself with him -- the sheer audacity and the skills employed by this wanted man. And then one woman in particular who may or may not have set aside his criminal ways in order to, among other things, fall in love with him. So, robbing banks...the romantic comedy? Still this gets tricky. In "real life" being anywhere an armed robbery is taking place will almost certainly be a frightening experience for most of us. "At the movies" however we can be introduced to a context and to a character in which all of that sort of fades into the background. We know that no one is likely to get hurt and we know that rooting for the bad guy [this time] is "okay". Then it comes time for the "big one". No more penny-ante cash drawer takes. This time it's the "vault and the truck". And that brings in "the Feds". And then the part about getting old, looking back at your life and connecting the dots between the boy and the man. And making up your mind about if you are able to live with it more or less satisfied. IMDb In an interview he gave during the 2018 Toronto International Film Festival, Robert Redford talked about this comedic film being a good note to end on, since the actor wanted his "last acting job to be fun." Robert Redford's final role before retiring from acting. Although he receives fourth billing, Keith Carradine's role was almost completely dropped; he appears for literally three or four seconds with a single line of dialogue. (Director David Lowery has stated the cut footage will be included on the DVD.) David Lowery tried to write the true crime version of this movie and the journalistic version of what really happened, and Robert Redford never felt like he fit into that. In other words, according to Lowery himself, his idea of who Robert Redford was as an actor never really fit into the true story of Forrest Tucker. So after many, many drafts, he realized that what he needed to write was the movie that Forrest Tucker would have wanted to see. He needed to write the version of Forrest Tucker that he saw in his own head as opposed to the one that really showed all the things he did. There was a thin line between two, but it was a very important line and that line allowed him to write a movie that was the version that Robert Redford could excel playing. FAQ at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2837574/faq?ref_=tt_faq_sm trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2837574/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Man_%26_the_Gun trailer: https://youtu.be/d7rlUe-Thvk The Old Man and the Gun [2018] Written in part and directed by David Lowery Forrest: Hey, I like that truck of yours. Jewel: Yeah. Me, too. Forrest: Yeah? Jewel: I stole it. Forrest [taken aback]: Did you? Jewel [laughing]: No. It was my husband's. ... Forrest: Uh... can I tell you something? I don't know the first thing about sales. I just made it up. Jewel: Well, what do you do then? Forrest: Well, that's a secret. ... Jewel [after Forrest writes down what he does]: You're not serious, are you? Forrest: I am. Jewel: This is a joke. Forrest: I'm serious. It's no joke. Jewel: Why would you even tell me, then? Forrest: Well, I think because I trust you. Jewel: You just met me. Forrest: Well, sometimes you just know is all. Jewel: With me, you know? Forrest: Well, you're still sitting here. Jewel: Well, that's because I don't believe you. And if I did believe you... Forrest: So, what'd be worse? If I'm lying about this or telling you the truth? Jewel: Prove it. ... Forrest [to Jewel]: I'm just pulling your leg. ... Detective: You said he was armed? Bank manager: Yes, he had a gun. Detective: You saw it? He pointed it at you? Manager: Well, I...Well, no! But he said he had one! And I... Detective: You did what he said. Manager: Yes! Detective: Because he said he had a gun. Manager: Yes. And also...I mean, he was also sort of a gentleman. ... Gene [a cop, on the phone]: Hey, Gene Dentler. John [detective]: It's John Hunt here. Tell me about this robbery. Gene: Oh, you mean the old guy? Yeah, same story. Small haul. No prints, no MO, no nothing. John: So you got no leads, huh? What a fucking surprise. Gene: Mainly on account of nobody giving a shit. It's just kind of a funny story. Joihn: Yeah. Nothing funnier than armed robbery. ... John: Okay, what we have here is five states. 93 robberies. In two years. Captain Calder: And you think it's all the same guys? John: Hundred percent. Captain: So, how do the same three guys get away with all that? John: Well, they haven't gotten away with it. They just haven't been caught yet. ... John: And how would you describe him? First victim: Well, he was, uh...he was very polite. Second victim: He seemed like a nice enough fella. Third victim: He was... John: Let me guess. Uh, he was a gentleman. Third victim: Yeah. Sorta. I guess...he...he just seemed more...happy. ... Waller: The vault and the truck. Teddy: Hmm. You really think we can do it? Waller: Yeah, I think we can probably do it. Teddy: We can probably do anything we set our minds to. I'm just saying, it sounds like we're showing off. Waller: Well, let's show off then. I'm so tired of doing the same score over and over again. It's penny-ante bullshit. I'm gonna be 67 years old. My bones hurt. I'm gonna start thinking about my future. My future. Teddy: What are you thinking, Forrest? Do you think we can pull it off? Forrest: Yeah, probably. Teddy: Probably? Probably? You forget about Paterson? Probably didn't get you very far then. Forrest: Yeah, but that was then. This is now. And now, I know what I'm doing. Teddy: Yeah, I know, too. But I also know what I'm capable of. And these days, those are two different things. ... John [on TV]: Well, we figure them to be about 60 to 70 years old. For that reason, we're calling them "The Over the Hill Gang." Reporter: Good name. John: Thank you. We came up with that. Folks from all around, some from Albuquerque and Little Rock just putting our heads together and hoping to nab these guys. Reporter: So, old men robbing banks, it seems like they'd be fairly conspicuous. Any idea how they'd gotten away with it for so long? John: Well, no. But frankly, they have a whole lot more experience robbing banks than we do catching them. ... Forrest: You see the news? Teddy: No. Waller: How's the weather? Forrest: Blue skies. ... Teddy [groaning]: They took off one of my love handles. Waller [removing a bullet from him]: You know, I never actually finished medical school. ... John [looking at Forrest on a tape of the heist]: Look at that. Is he smiling? Detective: Must be thinkin' of you. ... FBI agent: Hard part's over. Now's the part where we bring this home. John: Mmm. Yeah? That could be. You could bring this home. Or it could be that I puzzle things together. I find that clue. I crack the case. And maybe you come to me and you say, "Thanks, John. Let me shake your hand. "You puzzled things together. You cracked the case. That's good work." FBI agent: You remember something? John: Uhh...No. ... Jewel: Oh, you could kind of lose track of yourself, you know. At least I do. And it's so easy to assume that everything's fine. That this is fine. This is the way things are supposed to be. And so, you spend so much time thinking you're happy, and then one day you wake up and you realize, oh, maybe you aren't. Maybe you never were in the first place. Maybe you don't even know what that means. Then something happens, like you lose someone or...even your kids grow up and leave home, and you think..."What do I have left?" Now I think, now it's okay to be selfish. 'Cause you think about ten years from now, where will you be? What'll you be doing? Now, whenever I close the door, I think... "Oh, at least this is the last time "I'll ever have a chance to do whatever that thing was?" Forrest: You know what I do when the door closes? Jewel: What's that? Forrest: I jump out the window. ... Dorothy: So, you think you're gonna catch him? Forrest: Well, I hope so. Dorothy: Well, if you do, I don't wanna see him. I don't wanna have to come in and pick him out of... what's it... a lineup or whatever it's called, okay. Forrest: No, that won't be necessary. Dorothy: You know, I think he should be locked up. You know, my momma told me that... he always said... "Oh, I'm a changed man now." And then he would just get out and he'd just do it all over again. And again and again. Even after all that, you know, she loved him till the day she died. ... Beckley [lawyer]: Forrest Tucker. He was the real deal. John: Holy smokes. Age 13, bicycle theft. That's getting an early start. Beckley: He spent his whole life locked up. Except for the times that he broke out. Sixteen successful escapes. John: Sixteen? Beckley: Uh-huh. That's some kind of record, right? A few years back, he broke out of San Quentin in a boat he built out of scrap wood and tarp and who knows what else. Painted the Marin County logo on the side and sailed right on out of there. You ever meet him, he'll tell you all about it. He'll tell you every detail of every adventure he ever had. And probably a few that he didn't. John: Maybe somebody should have told him to quit while he was ahead. Beckley: Well, you find something you love... ... Beckley [to John]: He did always have a gun on him, but if you told me that he had never fired that thing once in his life, I'd believe ya. I remember I sat down with him once and I said, "Forrest...surely there's an easier way for somebody in your position to make a living." And he looked at me and he said, "Brother... "I'm not talking about making a living. I'm just talking about living." ... Maureen [wife]: Did you find him? John: Yeah, sorta. Maureen: What's that mean? John: Well... I figured out who he is. He's a guy who is old...but used to be young. And he just loves robbing banks. Maureen: That's it? John: That's it. Maureen: Just like you're a guy who's a cop...who's gonna catch him. John [after a long pause]: Yeah. Something like that. ... Forrest: Hey! Didn't I see you on TV? John: Oh, maybe. Forrest: No, I think so. You were involved in that...What you called... The Over The Hill Gang, right? John: Yeah. Forrest: Yeah. Did you catch them? John: Not yet. Forrest: Hmm. You close? John: Oh, we're getting there. ... John: Forrest...I know what I'm doing. ... FBI Agent: Forrest Tucker, you are under arrest. Step away from the car! Put your hands up and step away from the car now! [Forrest jumps back into the car] FBI agent: Don't do it! Get out of the car! ... Maureen [after John gets off the phone]: What happened? John: Well, they caught him. Maureen: How? John: Oh, somebody talked. Maureen: Hmm. Now what? John: He'll go to prison. Maureen: Hmm. That's too bad. I'm sorry you didn't catch him. John: I'm not. ... Reporter [on TV]: The Over the Hill Gang is no more. Last night, federal agents in Fort Worth arrested the leader of the group, 74-year-old Forrest Silver Tucker. Tucker, a native of Florida, is best remembered in the Bay area for engineering one of the most innovative prison breaks in San Quentin history. That is just one of a long list of escapes and an even longer list of crimes. ... Jewel: You lied to me about your name. Forrest: Well, I figured you knew. Jewel: That's what the detectives asked me, if I knew. If I even had the slightest idea. John: Hmm, what'd you say? Jewel: Said of course not. Forrest: I'm sorry. Jewel: Well, me too. Forrest [handing her some sheets of paper]: Here. I wrote something for you. Jewel: What's this? Forrest: These are all the times I broke out before. ... Jewel: What about this one? Forrest: Well...kinda saving the best for last. Jewel: Well... maybe, uh... maybe you should just stay put [and he did] ... Forrest [on the phone]: Hey, John. John: Yeah, it is. Who's this? Forrest: How's it going? John [figuring out who it is]: Forrest Tucker. Is that you? I heard you got out. Forrest: Yeah, I got out all right. John: What happened? Did you get tired of digging tunnels and climbing fences? Forrest: Well, I thought so, but, uh... John: Forrest? Forrest, are you all right? Forrest [looking over at the bank]: Yeah, I... I'm about to be. ... Title card: Forrest Tucker robbed four more banks that day. When he was finally caught, the officers on the scene note that as they arrested him...he was smiling. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film They all say the same thing. If you want to excel as an actor, you must be able to draw on the sort of experiences that make it possible for art to imitate life. Nothing is off the table here because you never really know what frame of mind or emotion or psychological state you might be called upon to recreate up on the stage. And, this being the case, there will always be those directing actors who are ready, willing and able to take advantage of it. Thus, "...when the workshop's ambitious director pushes Madeline to weave her rich interior world and troubled history with her mother into their collective art the lines between performance and reality begin to blur." And this impacts not only Madeline's performance up on the stage but her very "sense of identity" itself. "I" tugged and pulled...and then completely twisted out of shape. And what if, from the very start, the actor is already emotionally disturbed? What might be the end result of that? A sane actor can portray insanity up on the stage with more or less skill. But what are the [possible] consequences of an actor less than completely sane being pushed all the more to go over the edge? And then the part about encompassing sanity itself. In today's world in particular. One way or another we are often putting on a mask and adopting one or another persona in one or another context. And here you are never really certain if what you are watching is in or out of Madeline's head. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeline%27s_Madeline trailer: https://youtu.be/S_ezPTjSSPw Madeline's Madeline [2018] Written in part and directed by Josephine Decker Nurse [from Madeline's dreamscape]: There you go. What you are experiencing is just a metaphor. The emotions you are having are not your own. They are someone else's. You are not the cat. You are inside the cat. Now lie back... ... Evangeline [workshop director]: Madeline, what are you doing? Madeline: I was a sea turtle. Evangeline: You were a sea turtle, and then you were a woman playing a sea turtle. Look at your hands. Hands. Whose hands are those? Are they yours, or are they the turtle's? ... Madeline: Drive, drive! Duck! Duck! Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Go, Mom! Regina [Mother]: I'm going, I'm going. I can't duck and drive. Madeline: Just go! Just go! Mother: I'm going! Are you okay? Madeline: Yes! Oh, my God. We just mooned Evangeline. Mother: You did? Madeline: Yes. Let's go! Mother: I thought you...I thought something had really happened. ... Son: Mom, what would you be if you were someone else? Mother: Do you mean, like, a famous person? Madeline: No, he means, um, if you could cut out someone's face and wear it as your own, who would it be? ... Madeline: I had this dream that I wanted to tell you about, but, you know... Evangeline: I know. You know what they say about dreaming. You just have to trust yourself. Jung says that...in all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order, that the pendulum of the mind swings between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong. Madeline: Dreams are awesome. I dreamt I slammed my mother's hand with an iron. I couldn't breathe. It felt like I was underwater, watching her. Evangeline: Anything like that, you can always share it with me. I dreamt you were my daughter. [a pause] Evangeline: Do you feel safe around your mom...? ... Boy: Hey, Madeline. What's up? What's in your basement? Yo, me and the guys over there, we took bets, and we think there's five dead bodies in there. Five, for every finger on your hand. Madeline [bursting into a character]: I killed 'em with my fingernails! Boy: You're weird. ... Madeline: I was just showing them the basement. Mother: Mm-hmm. Why don't you sit down. Let's watch this! Okay. Right? Sit down, Madeline. This what you were doing? This what I interrupted? Boy: We were just... Mother: Yeah? Well, just do it. Go ahead. Do it. Whip it out. Woman from porn video: You're putting it in her asshole! Mother [to the boys]: This is a good idea? You want her in a psych ward for another six weeks? With her condition? ... Evangeline: I want to deepen the work that we're doing with the character that you're gonna play. Do you want to name her? Madeline: Oh, I... I thought of a name. Zia. Evangeline: Zia? -Yeah. That is... It's really powerful. You know, one of the ways that we could maybe...sort of make Zia more concrete would be...I was thinking we could explore the dream that you were telling me about and maybe act it out. The one that you... With the iron, and you slam your mom's hand. It's so just potent. And I-I can't stop thinking about those images. You know, dream work can be this really... Uh, anyway... we should... try acting it out. How do you feel about that? Madeline [clearly uneasy]: I, uh...I guess, yeah. ... Evangeline [disjointedly]: Madeline, was that...Is that about how it felt? What? I think we need to, um, emphasize the fractured, um, disjointed relationship with the mother at the beginning. ... Mother [on phone?]: Yes, it's an emergency. Her prescription ran out a week ago. Mm-hmm. Why? Because she didn't tell me. I'm sorry. She's a teenager, so...She just doesn't tell me everything in her life. ... Mother: You know, I just... I want... I want you to be careful. You know? Because... you're not... Madeline: I'm not what? Mother: Um... You know. You're not like the other people. Madeline: Because I'm black? Mother: No, Madeline. I just feel like you're maybe not ready, you know. Your situation, which is different... Madeline: What are you saying? Mother: It's different from the other people in the...Everyone else is...is stable, and, um... You know, if you had an episode, which you probably will, what would happen? [Madeline throws a cup of soda at her] ... Evangeline: Are you okay? Madeline: I'm good. Evangeline: Yeah? How's things with your mom? Madeline: On the way here, she tried to give me the sex talk. I'm 16. I know everything. ... Nurse [actor in a skit]: What seems to be the problem? Madeline [acting as the patient]: I'm sick. Nurse: Yeah? What do you have? Madeline: I'm de...Pregnant. Evangeline: Hey, Madeline. It's a psychiatric ward, not a pregnancy ward. Madeline: My mom wants me to have an abortion, but, um, I'm gonna keep the baby. Nurse: Wh... I mean, do you...Do you think you're... you're ready? Madeline: I think I'm ready. I... I want to take care of someone. Like she will. But I'm afraid that the birth will be horrible. Nurse: How will it be horrible? Madeline: Bloody and hard. What if the baby doesn't wanna come out? What if it's, like... And it dies inside of me. Evangeline [not sure how to react]: Let's take five minutes, and then we'll, uh, regroup and try some more. ... Woman: Madeline was telling us your show is about prison? Evangeline: Uh, no. No, it's not. Madeline: It's...It's a metaphor. Woman: Metaphor? Evangeline: No, it's not a metaphor. It's-It's, um... It's about mental illness. And-And...Wow. Madeline is the lead. The look on Madeline's face says it all... Madeline: So, um, how long have you and Evangeline been together? George: Oh. We've been together five years. Five beautiful years. Madeline: Wow. George: Mm-mmm. Madeline: That's funny, because she has never mentioned you. George: She hasn't? Madeline: Nope. ... Madeline: So, um, it's my birthday this weekend. George: Are you serious? Well, happy birthday. You're turning... Madeline: Seventeen. George: Seventeen. Madeline: And do you know what I am doing for my birthday? I'm going to lose my virginity. George [taken aback]: That's... That's great. That's great. Who's...Who's the...Um, who's the lucky guy? Madeline: I haven't decided yet. George: Okay. Madeline: You know, if you have any recommendations for, like, a position or anything, for... 'Cause I'm a beginner, you know. I was thinking that I could bend over, and he could squeeze my ass cheeks. ... Evangeline: Were you drinking at my house, Madeline? Because you're not acting like yourself. Madeline: You don't know myself. I am being myself. Evangeline: I do know you. I know you! Madeline: Are you insecure? Evangeline: What? Madeline: Are you... insecure? Evangeline: I don't know! No. I mean no. I'm so... I'm not insecure. I'm trying to do something that's really hard. And I am, you know, holding down the fort on the whole project, and I'm spearheading this very collaborative vision that is fucking just... kind of fucked. So, yes. I mean yes, I'm insecure, because I don't know if the project's gonna work. I don't even know if my fucking marriage is gonna work. And I don't... Madeline: Good. Evangeline: What? What's good? Madeline: That you admitted it. I'm insecure too. It's why I want you to like me so much. ... Madeline: I don't think...I don't think I should be in your project anymore. Evangeline: What? Madeline: Okay. I feel like, you know, we're... Evangeline: I think you might be right, Madeline. I think maybe you shouldn't be in the project. And actually, it feels like a huge relief. I mean, I...Of course, I want you to be in it, but...this doesn't feel like it's good for either of us. ... Madeline [after Evangeline slams on the brakes and stops the car]: What was that? What... Was it a cat? Evangeline: I don't know. Maybe it was nothing. Madeline: Should... Should we check on it? Evangeline: No, it's dead. ... Madeline [acting out her mother in a skit at the workshop..with her mother in the room]: You really shouldn't use hand sanitizer like that. It dries out your skin. Oh, what sweater should I wear? The one with floral or the one with floral? The mood swings. They can be so bad sometimes. High, low. You never know where you're gonna go. Throwing things, hitting me. But I love you no matter what because you're my daughter. Were you smoking? I can smell it on you! Go take a shower, for Christ's sakes. Do you want some pancakes? Pancakes! I know you hate butter. Yes. Will you eat anything? Anything? See, Damon eats. Damon fucking eats. And he keeps it in. You're not going to rehearsal on Friday if you don't eat these pancakes. When you were a...just a little baby, I stroked your head so soft. I-I...I said to myself... I said, "This baby, she's so perfect. She's gonna be so strong." And look at you now. You are sick! You are so sick that you... No, Madeline. Madeline, no. Madeline, you're scaring me. Damon, tell her to...Put it down! Oh, my God! Oh, my God! My hand! My hand! Wow. Wow. Oh, my God. Oh, my God!!! Her mother leaves the room. Evangeline: That was so great. That was so amazing. Wow! Oh, my God. Are you okay? Madeline: Yes. Evangeline: You're so good. That was amazing. Did you guys see that? Oh, my God. That was amazing. Wow. Oh! Wow. I, uh... This... This is the play. This is immersive theater. Wow. Okay. Okay. I was thinking we were gonna do something else, but I think that, in light of this powerful new work, we should, uh... Let's everybody pick a piece, just a section of the improv that Madeline just did, and then we will make a dance. Make a dance of it and, um... Workshop actor: When you talk about this being the play, is this about Madeline? Evangeline: Well, no, no. I mean, it's about a character that we've been work... you know, creating together called Zia. It's about a character. Actor: And it's Madeline's story. Evangeline: No, Zia. Her name is Zia. Actor: Yeah, Zia. And she's comfortable with that. [she turns to Madeline] Actor: You're comfortable with that? With us telling your story? Actor [to Evangeline]: I mean...So you're going to tell the story of the inside of her brain. Evangeline: Yes. Evangeline completely misses the point that her students clearly get: that she is using and exploiting Madeline's very real emotional turmoil. Unless I'm completely missing the point. Evangeline: Get off me! Madeline? Madeline. Madeline. Great job. You know, you're obviously taking a lot of risks, and I think you're so talented, you know? But if we're gonna collaborate, I think we should talk about a process that's a little more...Listen. This is done. I think this is done now. Okay. Everybody? Everybody, I think this is done now! So thank you very much, everybody! Great job. Hey! Just stop! Stop! He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529 Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296 And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382 "Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?" Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me." iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 46418 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: hanging out with godot ### Re: philosophy in film Talk about conflicting goods... The year is 1993. Your neice is "caught with another girl". So, out of love, out of faith in God, you send her to "gay conversion therapy". A group that promises to "cure" her. After all, the Reverend Rick who helps to run the operation was once cured himself. The bottom line of course is that being gay is okay. The problem resides entirely with the reactionary religious folks who have yet to grasp that. And that is certainly one way to look at it. But that's not how everyone does look at it. So, from their perspective, this is a "liberal" propaganda flick that besmirches all that they hold near and dear. And that is basically how most of us view the world. With or without God there are good behaviors and bad behaviors. And it's up to us to pick sides. It really comes down then to how ridiculous the reactionaries are scripted to be. In other words, does it really matter how honest and sincere they are about their own beliefs? And many of them really do believe that being gay is a ticket to Hell. So, I'm looking for this in the film. And I think they did a pretty good job in that respect. I take my own political leap to the left on this issue. But I'm not able to embrace it as the objectivists [left or right] are. And that's the point. It's not as though the religious folks portrayed here are mindless morons. They're not ignorant clodhoppers or monsters. They have simply found an anchor for "I" in the Lord. And then the whole world becomes "do this" and "don't do that". Inevitably, there are characters here who are considerably more sophisticated about their "treatment" at God's Promise than others. What makes Cameron particularly vulnerable [and believable] is that she is not nearly as cynical as "sinners" like Jane and Adam. At least not at first. Look for the American Honey. IMDb The clips from the Christian exercise video "Blessercize" are real footage of an actual 90's video. Due to its limited theatrical release and marketing, the film failed to recoup its paltry$900,000 budget. It grossed just \$904,703 in 85 theaters in North America.

Won the Grand Jury Prize (Dramatic) at the Sundance Film Festival.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mised ... Post_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/VEdngvMGjg0

The Miseducation of Cameron Post [2018]
Written in part and directed by Desiree Akhavan

Pastor Crawford: Okay. Everybody, eyes up here. It's time to get started. So, I was thinking this morning. I was thinking about what it was like being your age, how I'd come to worship like I was ticking off a to-do list. I didn't get it like I do now, and I thought, "Well, maybe I should tell you guys a secret." Do you know what we're trying to do every Sunday in church as adults? We're trying to undo the things we did when we were your age. Think about it. You're our future, and you are at an age where you are especially vulnerable to evil. Now when I say, "Evil," I mean evil. And you won't see it now. You won't see it tomorrow. But what feels like fun is actually the enemy, and that enemy is closing the noose around your neck. While you experiment and play with that yoke like it's a toy and you think, "Oh, just this once, just... just a little longer," click. It's got you.

...

Reverend Rick [to Cameron]: Don't worry. You'll get decorating privileges soon. You have to earn certain rights at God's Promise. I swear it's not that bad... just decorating and mail. Most disciples get there in a few weeks. It's all spelled out in the contract.

...

Erin: I think if your top priority is to get better, that should also be true of the people you surround yourself with, you know?
Cameron: And you think you're getting...better?
Erin: Of course. I've been brought closer to God, and I can feel Him guiding me.

...

Lydia: I've come to meet our new disciple. Welcome, Cameron. I'm Dr. Lydia Marsh. I'm the director of God's Promise....I know the adjustment can be difficult at first, but I have every faith you'll find yourself at home here soon. In the meantime, please don't hesitate to ask if you need anything.
Cameron: Thank you.
Lydia: You should consider yourself amongst family, Cameron.
Cameron: You can call me "Cam."
Lydia: "Cameron" is already a masculine name. To abbreviate as something even less feminine only exacerbates your gender confusion.
Cameron: Right.

...

Cameron: I've just never thought of homosexuality like this.
Lydia: There's no such thing as homosexuality. There's only the same struggle with sin we all face. Would you let drug addicts throw parades for themselves?
Cameron: No.
Lydia: No, you wouldn't. Sin is sin. Your struggle is with the sin of same-sex attraction. The first step is for you to stop thinking of yourself as a homosexual.
Cameron: But I don't think of myself as a homosexual. I mean, I don't really think of myself as anything.

...

Jane: Just talk about how positive reinforcements for sports messed with your gender identity. They love that shit. And how your parents gave you too much physical affection or not enough physical affection. Either way, that's why you're gay.
Jane: That should probably go in your iceberg.

...

Cameron: You grew up in a commune?
Jane: Yeah.
Cameron: I didn't know hippies were evangelical.
Jane: They're not. My mom's new husband is.

...

Helen: I will not pray for God to change me because God does not make mistakes, and I am the one who is tempted by sin. Change will come through God...but within me. Me. I must be the change.
Steve: I've always known I didn't want to act on my same-sex attractions, so, in the past, I would resort to...self-pleasure. Then when I learned that that was a sin, also, I stopped, but it's like...shouldn't it be okay if it's instead of acting out?
Dane: What? You can't get a pass from God to jerk off.

...

Cameron: So, this worked for you, then? Like, you changed?
Rick: Yes. I changed.
Cameron: How?
Rick: It was a process. It's funny, actually. The moment things began to turn around was in a bar.
Cameron: Bar?
Rick: Yeah. A gay bar, of all places. Two men from my church came in. They saw my car parked outside, and they knew I'd been struggling, so they came in looking for me. Wow. It was God, Cameron. I asked for His help, and He gave it to me in the form of those allies. I was so deeply unhappy, but I didn't think I was worth saving, and I wonder if you've asked that of yourself. Are you worth saving?

...

Cameron: What's her deal anyway? Like, I know why Rick is here, but why does she give such a shit? She's not, like, ex-gay, is she?
Jane: She's Rick's sister.
Cameron: Seriously?
Jane: Yeah. She degayed him.

...

Lydia: Tell us about that girl you knew from home.
Cameron: Okay. Um...her name was Coley. We were in the same Bible study.
Lydia: What was she like?
Cameron: She was perfect. But she wasn't full of herself. You know, she was the type of person that, no matter who you were, you'd meet her, and you'd... you'd want to be her friend.
Lydia: It's said that cannibals only eat the enemies they admire as a way to take inside their best qualities. When you speak, you reveal a compulsion to take into yourself the qualities you admired in this girl.
Cameron [hesitantly]: I wanted to be like her, and I confused that with being with her? Lydia: Correct.

Slowly she is learning to tell them what they want to hear.

Mark: Can I ask you a personal question?
Cameron: Sure.
Mark: Do you believe in God?
Cameron: Um...I-I guess I don't...I don't really know.
Mark: Yeah. That's okay.
Cameron: I guess every time I pray...I kind of feel like I'm being phony.
Mark: Yeah. I-I think everybody can feel like that sometimes, but I also think that those are moments where it's really important to lean back on your faith and trust that that will take you forward.
Cameron: I don't think I really have any faith. Or at least I don't... really know how to go about getting it. Or if I really want it.

...

Cameron: What's winkte mean?
Adam: Yeah. It's a... It's a Lakotan word for two-spirit. It's like a... It's like a third gender. Okay, so, I am two-spirit, which, uh, means I was born with a man's soul and a woman's soul, and, uh, literally, "winkte" means "killed by woman," so it's as if the male part of me is being killed by the female part. That make sense?
Jane: He's basically like the Native American David Bowie.

...

Cameron: So, why'd your parents send you here?
Jane: His dad got into politics, and then he converted to Christianity.
Adam: Me being like this... fucks his image.

...

Cameron [on phone]: If I told you I was unhappy... and that I wanted to come home... would you let me?
Ruth [her aunt]: Cam, come on. You have to give it a chance. You know I'm doing this because I love you. Don't you want to have a family someday?

...

Erin [after sort of having sex with Cameron]: You can't tell anyone, Cam.
Cameron: I won't.
Erin: I really do want to get past this.

...

Lydia: Mark, why don't you start us off? I know you've had an especially hard week.
Mark: No. I...Every week is especially hard.
Lydia: Is there something...
Mark: Look, if you want me to talk about my father, then I'd prefer if you just ask.
Mark: I don't see what there is to talk about. I mean, you've read his letter. "I am denying your request to return home at the end of the semester. You are still very effeminate... and this is a weakness I cannot have in my home."
Lydia: How did that make you feel?
Mark: I'd like to read a passage. It's one of my father's favorites.
Mark [in an increasingly mocking voice]: "There was given to me a thorn in the flesh...the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. And for this thing, I besought the Lord thrice....that it might depart from me. And unto me he said...My grace is sufficient for thee...for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly, therefore, will I rather...will I rather glory in infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore, I-I take...I take pleasure in...in...in infirmities, in...in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake, for when I am weak, then am I strong! For when I am weak...then am I strong. When I am weak...then am I strong."

...

Mark [to the group]: I know that some of you are aware that Mark had a little bit of an accident last night. Adam found him in the bathroom, and we rushed him to the hospital. His dad's already flown out. He is stable, and he's going to be okay.
Dane: Fuck this. You guys are talking in circles. If he didn't kill himself, then what did he do?
Dane: See, that's where you're wrong, 'cause it does, actually. It makes me feel a fuck of a lot better.

...

Rick: Last night, Mark used a razor to cut his genitals several times. Then he poured bleach over the wounds. Adam found him.
Cameron: If you were worried about him, why did you leave him alone?
Rick: I don't have a very good answer for you.
Rick: I think so, all things considered. It is going to take him some time to process.
Cameron: How the fuck do you process watching your roommate try and cut his dick off? What's he going to do, put it on his iceberg? You people have no idea what you're doing, do you? You're just making it up as you go along.
Rick [weeping]: I don't know how to answer you right now. I...I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

...

Cameron: Look, I know you're here because of what happened to Mark.
Government official [sent to investigate Mark's self-mutilation]: Something didn't just happen to him. He injured himself.
Cameron: While under the care of this facility.
Government official: Correct, and that's why I'm here, to investigate the care that is given by those who run this facility, not to investigate the mission of this facility, unless that includes abuse or neglect.
Cameron: Yeah, but what about emotional abuse?
Government official: Are you saying you're being emotionally abused by the staff here?
Cameron: How is programming people to hate themselves not emotional abuse.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46418
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

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