What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm

Sculptor,
Your arguments are replete with dismissals without explanation and rife with blatant ad hominem . If you are as old as you say you are, looks like you would have learned polite debate by now. What comes across from your posts is attitude. not explanation. And the attitude is childish.
If you have something to say by way of refuting teleology in evolution, let's hear that.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:58 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Your arguments are replete with dismissals without explanation and rife with blatant ad hominem . If you are as old as you say you are, looks like you would have learned polite debate by now. What comes across from your posts is attitude. not explanation. And the attitude is childish.
If you have something to say by way of refuting teleology in evolution, let's hear that.


There is nothing to refute since no such claim has been demonstrated.

Teleology in evolution is the cart not the horse. Necessity and success drive the cart, and purpose is delivered. Purpose cannot drive the system. So much is bloody obvious.
If you are indoctrinated into religion it is hard to see this. I feel sorry for your delusion.

If you were as half as wise as you think you are you'd still be twice as stupid as your would like to be.
I'll drop the attitude when you drop the delusion and respond is rational ways, with an open mind. But seriously dude your attitude is pure 1850. This is the 21st C buddy.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:59 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The 'matter presented here is inspired by Michael Dowd's beautiful book "Thank God For Evolution". It is a must read for those who find the Darwinian approach to evolution limited in its inability to fully describe what it means to be human and part of Nature.


Bullshit from cover to cover.
He is completely unqualified to write such a book.
He has no understanding of science.

ANyone who thinks the world is 6000 years old is an ignorant moron.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:32 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Your arguments are replete with dismissals without explanation and rife with blatant ad hominem . If you are as old as you say you are, looks like you would have learned polite debate by now. What comes across from your posts is attitude. not explanation. And the attitude is childish.
If you have something to say by way of refuting teleology in evolution, let's hear that.


There is nothing to refute since no such claim has been demonstrated.

Teleology in evolution is the cart not the horse. Necessity and success drive the cart, and purpose is delivered. Purpose cannot drive the system. So much is bloody obvious.
If you are indoctrinated into religion it is hard to see this. I feel sorry for your delusion.

If you were as half as wise as you think you are you'd still be twice as stupid as your would like to be.
I'll drop the attitude when you drop the delusion and respond is rational ways, with an open mind. But seriously dude your attitude is pure 1850. This is the 21st C buddy.

Purpose drives the system. Necessity and success are the teleological incentives that drive human actions.
Dawkins' "illusion of design" is full of holes. It is natural to see design in the natural world. It is most certainly not a delusion. As for 1850, I'm surprised that you have not followed this matter on the 21st century internet, where examples of this topic abound. Oh, but you had rather use ad hominem than explain your limited view. Check out reliable criticism of Dawkins' "The God Delusion" which, apparently, is your source of ideas.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:47 pm

"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:40 pm


:lol:
Christians are so much in denial of reality that they cannot see any part of their won delusion.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:42 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Your arguments are replete with dismissals without explanation and rife with blatant ad hominem . If you are as old as you say you are, looks like you would have learned polite debate by now. What comes across from your posts is attitude. not explanation. And the attitude is childish.
If you have something to say by way of refuting teleology in evolution, let's hear that.


There is nothing to refute since no such claim has been demonstrated.

Teleology in evolution is the cart not the horse. Necessity and success drive the cart, and purpose is delivered. Purpose cannot drive the system. So much is bloody obvious.
If you are indoctrinated into religion it is hard to see this. I feel sorry for your delusion.

If you were as half as wise as you think you are you'd still be twice as stupid as your would like to be.
I'll drop the attitude when you drop the delusion and respond is rational ways, with an open mind. But seriously dude your attitude is pure 1850. This is the 21st C buddy.

Purpose drives the system. Necessity and success are the teleological incentives that drive human actions.
Dawkins' "illusion of design" is full of holes. It is natural to see design in the natural world. It is most certainly not a delusion. As for 1850, I'm surprised that you have not followed this matter on the 21st century internet,

:lol: Oh yeah, where the world is still flat and aliens ate my homework?? :lol:
where examples of this topic abound. Oh, but you had rather use ad hominem than explain your limited view. Check out reliable criticism of Dawkins' "The God Delusion" which, apparently, is your source of ideas.


I have a lot more than Dawkins behind me.
Darwin is still unchallenged.
After Darwin there is 180 years of scholarship, science and evidence.
Last edited by Sculptor on Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:49 am

Considering science is built around challenging theories and theorists, one wonders exactly what it is you are bragging about in this newest adolescent tirade.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:28 am

Vittorio wrote:Considering science is built around challenging theories and theorists, one wonders exactly what it is you are bragging about in this newest adolescent tirade.


If I thought you have the slightest glimmer of understanding about the meaning and achivements of science I would explain that to you.
But since you think that a priest who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago is qualified to criticize science and evolutionary science in particular it is clear you are unclear.
Last edited by Sculptor on Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:25 am

- wrong thread
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:59 am

Who is this priest who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago? It is certainly not Michael Dowd.
If you had read Dowd, you would have discovered that he does not deny Darwin. He simply makes Darwin accessible for humans. Evolution with a purpose unites religion with science, a must reunion for any viable future for humanity.
If you are not a Dawkins puppet, why do you sound so much like him? And yes, I've read his books. But, for the last time, this thread is not about me, it is not about the fundamentalist Christian views you and Dawkins so abhor. It is about hope for a future for Mankind.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:07 pm

Darwin, himself, had misgivings about his theory. It is not that the theory is incorrect; it is that it is incomplete. Authors such as Michael Dowd are attempting to address what was left out of the theory --the existential awareness of a personal God as designer of the universes. The impersonal look at evolution shows it to be a bleak, purposeless mechanical body of fortuitous events. But what gives one the idea of fortuity? Evolution as mechanical neglects much of what is fully human.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:27 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Darwin, himself, had misgivings about his theory. It is not that the theory is incorrect; it is that it is incomplete. Authors such as Michael Dowd are attempting to address what was left out of the theory --the existential awareness of a personal God as designer of the universes. The impersonal look at evolution shows it to be a bleak, purposeless mechanical body of fortuitous events. But what gives one the idea of fortuity? Evolution as mechanical neglects much of what is fully human.


He did not have any misgivings that you are capable of understanding, and he certianly had none that would include "intelligent Design" or any creator.
He fully and utterly rejected god and religion.
Evolution as mechanical neglects much of what is fully human.

So what? Evolutionary theory is not supposed to give psychological advice about the scared murmurings of the human child.
It simply demonstrates HOW humans emerged over millions of generations from more simple animals without the help of a guide. In fact shows with clarity that given the haphazardness of the variety of life that no such design could possibly make sense.
The simple fact that the basic model of everything from a skeleton to all organs reuses the same pattern again and again. If a god were to have been involved then he would have to be a bumbling idiot, allowing millions of attempts to go extinct. Millions of tries failing. A stupid god that that despite supposedly being omnipotent could not figure out how the hell a human was supposed to look and so took 3.1 billion years fo design one.
Then when the final human energes, it is full of basic designl flaults such as bad back; dodgy appendix; utterly reliant of billions of gut bacteria without which ha cannot digest food; head too big for child birth; children with arrested developement that take at least 15 years of care before they are viable.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:31 am

Sculptor wrote:He fully and utterly rejected god and religion.


This is obviously false. Darwin was an observing Christian for the entirety of his life.

Sculptor wrote:Evolution as mechanical neglects much of what is fully human.


If it did, it would be a faulty theory of evolution, as evolution is designed precisely to account for all that is human, and more.

Also, I would like to point out something that you seem to be unaware of, which is that Darwin did not invent the theory of evolution. He suggested some mechanisms that might be involved in it.
Last edited by Vittorio on Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:35 am

Sculptor wrote:If I thought you have the slightest limmer of understanding about the meaning and achivements of science I would explain that to you.
But since you think that a priest who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago is qualified to criticize science and evolutionary science in particular it is clear you are unclear.


Yes, if you say so.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:22 am

Vittorio wrote:
Sculptor wrote:If I thought you have the slightest limmer of understanding about the meaning and achivements of science I would explain that to you.
But since you think that a priest who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago is qualified to criticize science and evolutionary science in particular it is clear you are unclear.


Yes, if you say so.

Whether I say it or not.
You really do not know what you are talking about.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:29 am

Vittorio wrote:
Sculptor wrote:He fully and utterly rejected god and religion.


This is obviously false. Darwin was an observing Christian for the entirety of his life.

Every person who went to University was forced to take orders.
That does not make a person a christian.
As time passed he reaslised that there was no need for god. When one of his daughters died it was the last straw and he refused ever to enter a church.
Try and educate yourself. Read his autobiography where he makes this clear.

Sculptor wrote:Evolution as mechanical neglects much of what is fully human.


I did not say this.

If it did, it would be a faulty theory of evolution, as evolution is designed precisely to account for all that is human, and more.

Duh fucking Duh. Evolution is not DESIGNED FFS. :lol: :lol:
Saying that is probably more funny that you will ever know

Also, I would like to point out something that you seem to be unaware of, which is that Darwin did not invent the theory of evolution. He suggested some mechanisms that might be involved in it.


I am, as usual, way a head of you. Darwin with Wallace described and discovered the Theory of Natural Selction. Other theories pre-existed Darwin, most notably Larmark's, Darwin's own grandfather Erasmus also did work on the topic.

You'd do better to run along and do some basic research on the topic before you spar with me.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:35 am

Ierrellus wrote:Who is this priest who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago? It is certainly not Michael Dowd.

Maybe he's changed his mind recently. Evidence that truth might be getting through or that he's had to mideify his misconceptions to accomodate the truth. He was and still is decribed as a Young Earth Creationist.
If you had read Dowd, you would have discovered that he does not deny Darwin.

Yes he does. The very title of his book is a denial of Darwin.
He simply makes Darwin accessible for humans.

Darwin is twice the writer Dowd could ever be and his writings are ver clear and in perfect understandable Englsih that stand up to scrutiny and rational examination.
Evolution with a purpose unites religion with science,

No it does not. It is a childish fallacy.
#
a must reunion for any viable future for humanity.

Bullshit. It is the end of reason, an excuse to believe that you like rather than what is the truth.
If you are not a Dawkins puppet, why do you sound so much like him?

Dawkins is one man amongst millions.
And yes, I've read his books. But, for the last time, this thread is not about me, it is not about the fundamentalist Christian views you and Dawkins so abhor. It is about hope for a future for Mankind.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:24 pm

Sculptor, If you were able to present anything here other than derision, I would welcome your posts.
As it is you assume to know what Vittorio and I have read or how we think; and you squeeze your guesses about us into your limited atheistic agenda.
I'd be happy if you just pack up your tent and leave this thread for a more fertile site for your vitriol.
Evolution is a theory. I only seek to see it expanded to include more of what it's like to be human. It is you who limit the theory to the 19th century where it abruptly stops with naked apes. I am certainly aware of Erasmus Darwin, et. al. Charles proposed only the mechanism by which evolution operates. He did not deny God in the Origin of the Species or the Descent of Man. The circumstances under which he expressed that denial, a death in the family, is certainly understandable. It is human, all too human.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:32 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor, If you were able to present anything here other than derision, I would welcome your posts.

Rubbish.
I was offering your rational and well considered posts, and you started with the derision.

I'd be happy if you just pack up your tent and leave this thread for a more fertile site for your vitriol.

Go and be happy.
Evolution is a theory. I only seek to see it expanded to include more of what it's like to be human. It is you who limit the theory to the 19th century where it abruptly stops with naked apes. I am certainly aware of Erasmus Darwin, et. al. Charles proposed only the mechanism by which evolution operates. He did not deny God in the Origin of the Species or the Descent of Man.

Both books clearly reject the need for God.
That is why on the eve of the publication of Origin of Species hae declared to be confessing to a murder - the murder of God, and of his own faith. He had no need to specifically mention God since those books were books of SCIENCE. Science is about knowing, religion about faith. They have no connection. Whilst science has progressed, religion has had to back track and reject its own dogma. That is the history of the relaationship and Your clown Dowd is not a scientist and has never studied it. He cannot stem the tide with wishes. His own life history is a microcosm of this struggle of religon to catch up with science, since he himself is a reformed Young Earth Creationist. Darwin shows that no creation is possible nor necessary.
Dowd is a dinosaur trying to cling to life, but is extinct, a dead man walking.
The circumstances under which he expressed that denial, a death in the family, is certainly understandable. It is human, all too human.


And where is god in the death of an innocent young girl?
Nowhere!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:56 pm

Einstein believed in God. Hawking does not. Yet both were amazed by the intricate complexity of the visible universe.
I'm with Einstein. Such beauty and efficiency demands an author.
God is the reason for something so magnificent as deterministic, creative evolution, giving humans a heritage of purpose.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:17 pm

Sculptor,
Kindly flame elsewhere.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:07 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Einstein believed in God.

False.
His god was Spinoza's god. Not a person, or personality. careless, a logic of nature. not a deitiy.
Hawking does not.
Hawking was in complete accord with the ideas of Einstein in this respect
Yet both were amazed by the intricate complexity of the visible universe.
I'm with Einstein. Such beauty and efficiency demands an author.

Then you better keep looking for a scientist because Einstein did not believe in celestial authors. He was strictly a nature man.
God is the reason for something so magnificent as deterministic, creative evolution, giving humans a heritage of purpose.

Circular you have all your work to do. If you think the universe needs an author than who authored something greater that the universe?

Humans decide their own purposes.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:08 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Kindly flame elsewhere.


Stop farting on the forum and I'll stop lighing them up.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:03 pm

Sculptor wrote:Whether I say it or not.
You really do not know what you are talking about.


Yes, if you say so.
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