What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:57 pm

Sculptor wrote:The idea of god is inherently stupid.
Sculptor wrote:learn something before you speak of it.

:-"
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:21 pm

“This argument is amusing and seductive, but for all I know, the Lord may be laughing over it and leading me down the garden path.” – Albert Einstein in a letter to a friend

A theory that addresses the object 'science' in this sentence but not the object 'Lord' is lacking.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:23 pm

Is there determinism without a purpose? Give me an example in Nature.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:38 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Is there determinism without a purpose? Give me an example in Nature.

All of it.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:39 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Sculptor wrote:The idea of god is inherently stupid.
Sculptor wrote:learn something before you speak of it.

:-"

Obsrvr is inherently stupid as demonstrated by this post.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:25 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Is there determinism without a purpose? Give me an example in Nature.


Sculptor wrote:
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:17 pm

Obsrvr,
You are not stupid. What do you wish to say about design in evolution?
I find evolution deterministic and creative. We owe to it as we are all involved in it.
I have had God experiences so I know God exists for everyone regardless of their personal beliefs to the contrary.
But this thread is not about me. It's about purposeful design in Nature and how that implies a creator.
Michael Behe was scoffed at by other scientists because he found instances in nature of "irreducible complexities". Some scientists seem to forget that Darwinian evolution is theory. That at present it has not been refuted does not mean it never will be.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:05 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
You are not stupid. What do you wish to say about design in evolution? .


He wants to get a room with you!!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:17 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
Some scientists seem to forget that Darwinian evolution is theory. That at present it has not been refuted does not mean it never will be.


And also it sort of has been. No scientist uses Darwin as a reference. Even though some general concepts he laid out are still mainly what are used today, too much of his actual theory has been refuted and replaced for imperfections and oversights that are part of the normal course of scientific theoretical progress.

If Darwin read "The Selfish Gene," he would have an aneurysm.

Darwin is more of a symbolic figurehead.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:09 pm

Aventador wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
Some scientists seem to forget that Darwinian evolution is theory. That at present it has not been refuted does not mean it never will be.


And also it sort of has been. No scientist uses Darwin as a reference. Even though some general concepts he laid out are still mainly what are used today, too much of his actual theory has been refuted and replaced for imperfections and oversights that are part of the normal course of scientific theoretical progress.

If Darwin read "The Selfish Gene," he would have an aneurysm.

Darwin is more of a symbolic figurehead.


Rubbish.
Darwinism is used throughout science, not just biology, but computer science, neurology and more.
Examples can be found in anthrolpology, sociology, even psychology.
Darwin changed everything.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:48 am

I know you feel very strongly that it is true.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:34 pm

Aventador wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
Some scientists seem to forget that Darwinian evolution is theory. That at present it has not been refuted does not mean it never will be.


And also it sort of has been. No scientist uses Darwin as a reference. Even though some general concepts he laid out are still mainly what are used today, too much of his actual theory has been refuted and replaced for imperfections and oversights that are part of the normal course of scientific theoretical progress.

If Darwin read "The Selfish Gene," he would have an aneurysm.

Darwin is more of a symbolic figurehead.

I wonder what Darwin would have thought of the modern synthesis (Julian Huxley) or of Stephen. J Gould's '"punctuated equilibrium", revisions of the early theory, mostly in light of Mendel's findings on genetics.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:57 pm

Deep within existential awareness lie clues to the secrets of evolution. These clues are of a designer. Most atheists I have met neglect these clues in favor of attacks on religious fundamentalism, attacks that stem from personal problems with religion as they have experienced it or from belief that religion in general has always been anti-science. On the one hand there is the lumping of all religions together as if religion itself has never evolved. On the other hand the approximately 150 years of the war between science and religion has rendered only losers on both sides, but science is still credited with all advances of the human race. Attempts to reconcile science and religion are usually met with scoffing and derision from many. atheists.
For me, Thomas Henry Huxley's agnosticism is a much more honest approach to religion vs science than atheism is.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:16 pm

Aventador wrote:I know you feel very strongly that it is true.


I always feel strongly to challenge the ignorance of people who just do not know, - that is you in this instance.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:17 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Aventador wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
Some scientists seem to forget that Darwinian evolution is theory. That at present it has not been refuted does not mean it never will be.


And also it sort of has been. No scientist uses Darwin as a reference. Even though some general concepts he laid out are still mainly what are used today, too much of his actual theory has been refuted and replaced for imperfections and oversights that are part of the normal course of scientific theoretical progress.

If Darwin read "The Selfish Gene," he would have an aneurysm.

Darwin is more of a symbolic figurehead.

I wonder what Darwin would have thought of the modern synthesis (Julian Huxley) or of Stephen. J Gould's '"punctuated equilibrium", revisions of the early theory, mostly in light of Mendel's findings on genetics.


It's not a "revision". Gould was perfectly aware that he was building on Darwin.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:22 pm

Sculptor wrote:I always feel strongly


Yes, I see that, but you have to learn to temper your feelings if you wish to attain any level of intellectual proficiency.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:29 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
You are not stupid. What do you wish to say about design in evolution? .


He wants to get a room with you!!

Typical infantile reaction.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:44 pm

What was special about Darwin wasn't any of his general ideas about evolution, which already existed, that is, the gradual changes in animals through generations in response to environmental stimuli, or any of his specific postulates, which have all generally been replaced in mainstream research by more advanced postulates that adhere more closely to the actual behavior of evolutionary change.

What was special about Darwin was his obsessive studiousness of actual evolutionary changes, the level of depth of his anatomical observations in actual instances of evolution, making the theory, though it already existed, undeniable by the main stream of science which had so far succeeded in denying it and making it a fringe field of study. Before Darwin, most evolutionary theorists were essentially hobby botanists.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:51 pm

He also firmly established that changes that occurred during the lifetime of one generation were not inherited by the next, prompting a revival in Mendel's studies and general acceptance that genetic material, that is, whatever it was that transmitted phenotypes from one generation to the next, was itself not sensitive to external stimuli. The environmental incidence was indirect by way of permitting certain changes to be transmitted, and others not.

This ruled out many possibilities for what it might be that in actuality is what directs the changes themselves in a coherent, evolutionary manner, but it did not itself establish one.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:00 pm

Aventador wrote:
Sculptor wrote:I always feel strongly


Yes, I see that, but you have to learn to temper your feelings if you wish to attain any level of intellectual proficiency.


What you do not understand is that passion and intelligence go hand in hand.
Without passion you are dull and passive, learning nothing.
Passion gets you up in the morning and gets you out there on the expedition.
So get out of bed and find something out!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:00 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Obsrvr,
You are not stupid. What do you wish to say about design in evolution? .


He wants to get a room with you!!

Typical infantile reaction.


True, but you can't help it.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:03 pm

Aventador wrote:What was special about Darwin wasn't any of his general ideas about evolution, which already existed, that is, the gradual changes in animals through generations in response to environmental stimuli, or any of his specific postulates, which have all generally been replaced in mainstream research by more advanced postulates that adhere more closely to the actual behavior of evolutionary change.

Name these "replaced postulates"!
You cannot because you are just making this up as you go along.

What was special about Darwin was his obsessive studiousness of actual evolutionary changes, the level of depth of his anatomical observations in actual instances of evolution, making the theory, though it already existed,

Darwin's theory of evolution did not exist. The mechanism was not understood until He and Wallace published it.
undeniable by the main stream of science which had so far succeeded in denying it and making it a fringe field of study. Before Darwin, most evolutionary theorists were essentially hobby botanists.


This is simply a misunderstanding oif history.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:07 pm

Aventador wrote:He also firmly established that changes that occurred during the lifetime of one generation were not inherited by the next, prompting a revival in Mendel's studies and general acceptance that genetic material, that is, whatever it was that transmitted phenotypes from one generation to the next, was itself not sensitive to external stimuli. The environmental incidence was indirect by way of permitting certain changes to be transmitted, and others not.

This ruled out many possibilities for what it might be that in actuality is what directs the changes themselves in a coherent, evolutionary manner, but it did not itself establish one.


In fact, one of the main subjects of study in evolutionary theory during Darwin's time was the repeating patterns in change. These botanists generally disliked Darwin because he stopped that debate cold. Before his book, there were several competing theories regarding these patterns, and some of them got really advanced. But Darwin was a very insecure man, focused solely on proving the truth of evolution to the Royal Society. Anything that couldn't be meticulously proven was outside his scope of interest. Obviously, when you are simply setting out to find patterns in evolutionary change, brainstorming if you will, it is a very interpretative exercise. Before you actually have a hypothesis, you cannot prove or disprove it.

The fact of evolution was already very obvious to these theorists, so Darwin's establishment of its truth was relatively meaningless to them.

Darwin didn't prove how things change. He simply proved that they change.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:09 pm

Sculptor wrote:Name these "replaced postulates"!


Read a book.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:12 pm

Sculptor wrote:What you do not understand is that passion and intelligence go hand in hand.
Without passion you are dull and passive, learning nothing.
Passion gets you up in the morning and gets you out there on the expedition.
So get out of bed and find something out!


Hysteria is not generally considered a passion conducive to intellectual advancement.
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