What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:01 pm

Aventador wrote:The fact of evolution was already very obvious to these theorists, so Darwin's establishment of its truth was relatively meaningless to them.

Darwin didn't prove how things change. He simply proved that they change.

- A really good point.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby encode_decode » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:03 pm

Aventador wrote:
Sculptor wrote:What you do not understand is that passion and intelligence go hand in hand.
Without passion you are dull and passive, learning nothing.
Passion gets you up in the morning and gets you out there on the expedition.
So get out of bed and find something out!


Hysteria is not generally considered a passion conducive to intellectual advancement.

Hysteria is not generally considered a passion at all...question mark ??? lots of question marks...
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:18 pm

I imagine it is what Darwinism implied that caused his fame. It implied that -
    "Oh God didn't ordain it - Nature did it! And that means we can freely manipulate it!"

It seems a little like that argument between determinism and free will - except in reverse.

The temptation of understanding determinism (God ordained) is that all of your faults can be blamed on something/one else - you are free from guilt. The illusion of free will implies that you are to blame for your actions.

With Darwinism the opposite is implied.

The temptation of understanding Darwinism (not God ordained) is that you are free from guilt for messing with nature. And the belief in a God ordained pattern condemns you for violating it.

So of course whichever frees you from guilt most is the one people prefer - unless they believe in God.

What seems to be always left out is - God's actual role and why you should care.
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              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
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    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:07 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:The temptation of understanding Darwinism (not God ordained) is that you are free from guilt for messing with nature. And the belief in a God ordained pattern condemns you for violating it.


That really depends on your view of God, I think. Many God fearing people don't consider Gods to have ordained much. They are part of the world as much as us. That's the Greek view.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:10 pm

In any case, it is wise to fear the Gods.

Otherwise you are an indolent bag of meat, with no reverence for life or anything in it.

I think, though, that Ierrellus's argument here is that God/s are or is part of evolution. In any case, involved in it.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:14 pm

Which is a different case than the old Aristotelian argument of the Prima Causa. And certainly different from the type of intelligent design that contradicts the possibility of evolution. Or even Leibniz's perfect synchronization.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:23 pm

Aventador wrote:In any case, it is wise to fear the Gods.

Otherwise you are an indolent bag of meat, with no reverence for life or anything in it.

I think, though, that Ierrellus's argument here is that God/s are or is part of evolution. In any case, involved in it.
Aventador wrote:Which is a different case than the old Aristotelian argument of the Prima Causa. And certainly different from the type of intelligent design that contradicts the possibility of evolution. Or even Leibniz's perfect synchronization.

I think there is an understanding that combines both of those concerns (Ierrellus's and Aristotle's) but gets left out in the arguments - probably because it doesn't take sides.
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              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:25 pm

Aventador wrote:In any case, it is wise to fear the Gods.

Otherwise you are an indolent bag of meat, with no reverence for life or anything in it.


That's what was nice about the era when the rebels were the Freemasons. At least they postulated a God. But it was hopelessly artificial.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:26 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Aventador wrote:In any case, it is wise to fear the Gods.

Otherwise you are an indolent bag of meat, with no reverence for life or anything in it.

I think, though, that Ierrellus's argument here is that God/s are or is part of evolution. In any case, involved in it.
Aventador wrote:Which is a different case than the old Aristotelian argument of the Prima Causa. And certainly different from the type of intelligent design that contradicts the possibility of evolution. Or even Leibniz's perfect synchronization.

I think there is an understanding that combines both of those concerns (Ierrellus's and Aristotle's) but gets left out in the arguments - probably because it doesn't take sides.


Well that's pretty much what Leibniz postulated, a kind of combination. That God set everything in motion, the Prima Causa, but at the same time was constantly active, the perfect synchronization. That's not what I understand Ierrellus as saying.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:38 pm

That suddenly tossed me back into the physics of psychology - so maybe I should just drop it. :D
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:48 pm

Ok.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:00 pm

Aventador wrote:That really depends on your view of God, I think. Many God fearing people don't consider Gods to have ordained much. They are part of the world as much as us. That's the Greek view.


Yes, and because of the antisemitism of the Germans, because they wanted an all-controlling being that did generate the world, they were very happy when they discovered Hinduism.

Hinduism, of course, lacking all the nobility of Judaism. But they were able to convolutedly postulate that they were the same 'race' as the Hindus, so their racist instinct was satisfied.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:27 pm

My opinion on creation is that God was the prime mover prior to the advent of humans with brains, but is totally involved in the physical to mental evolution that characterizes humans, that within this evolution the idea of what God is emerged. This idea is a recognition of the God within us--God's handiwork and being. Evidence of a creative and caring God can be found in ecological biosystems--the fact that we are in and of a Nature that can sustain life.
I do agree that the basic random and fortuitous concept of natural development frees one from guilt of what we owe to others or to nature itself. Beliefs from this idea excuse exploitation of nature, since they free one from guilt. The planet currently suffers from such exploitation. This is the only living planet we know of, yet we are wasting its resources as if there will not be a reckoning. We are in and of Nature--in and of God. We are responsible for the care of the planet and for each other. Without God the Ego is God.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:21 pm

An interesting question arose. Stems cells and genes are deterministic, --If evolution and its product Nature are deterministic, can this coincide with free will? It seems to me that free will is confined within the parameters of Determinism. My cat is programmed in cat=ness. Are humans programmed in humanness? Does not creativity suggest free will? Just thinking.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:10 am

Unless you think of them as reflecting the action of evolution. Then the debate of whether it is deterministic or not ceases to matter. Regardless of the actions of genes and stem cells, evolution happens, and it is traceable.

One could easily flip it around:

If one notices that evolution happens, and it really does happen, then we would expect to find it in a study of the physical elements involved. Genes are explained by evolution as much as evolution is explained by genes.

It does not matter if it is "determined" or "free" because, as has been noted to death in these boards (to our credit), both lead to the same. You are still you. Neither illuminates much.

Rather, what I believe, if anything, "frees" the atheist from attachment to the living world is the exclusion of experience from the only known and eminently powerful tool that studies the entire transcourse of nature. They "pretend" experience isn't real, so they are "free" from revering what it unveils, "free" to hate it, "free" to deny and hate themselves.

Waiting for Godot, as it were.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:16 am

The beauty of evolution is that nothing else is required to account for existence. It accounts for all that is or can be.

Why that would discount God, or any God, to use a very loose term (ht to Vittorio), is something that the atheist can only answer with hysteria, because reason, obviously, would not explain it.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:19 am

Now, what is interesting here is not that evolution can ostensibly explain, prove or disprove, their existence, but that it can ostensibly trace it.

Ostensibly.

Modern evolutionary theory is very far from it.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:22 am

If you look at modernist evolutionary explanations for any religion, it is always simply the very fact of the very loosely defined "phenomenon' of religion.

If it is so powerful a tool, why can it not trace specific instances? Why is this implicit question invariably met with recoiling hysteria? Obviously, it is a different agenda involved.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:36 pm

According to certain mystics there is a hunger within humans to reunite the part (human) with the Whole (God).
I believe this hunger for completeness explains the need for a religious overview of creation and evolution.
Although God is inexplicable, the hunger for God is not. It's an actual experience, available to all.
Stem cells and genes display this experience in a physical way.
The physical is mirrored by the mental. as far as the mental can fathom reality.
Evolution is divine. It remains the search for completeness.
As Felix noted completeness is a goal. If you achieved it you would be dead.
So the hunger of the part is incentive and aspiration.
Believing this frees one from belief in the supernatural.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:57 pm

It certainly is one perspective.

But I certainly agree with this:

Ierrellus wrote:The physical is mirrored by the mental. as far as the mental can fathom reality.


If any iteration of the theory of evolution is true, this must obviously be true.

I don't think it's even so much fathoming reality, in the sense of creating an accurate copy or map, but itself being shaped by and forming part of reality. Because there is nothing else it can be, no where else anything comes from. So, whether it fathoms it or not, it reflects it, to minute detail.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:01 pm

The only complaint against Darwin is not that he proposes pressures that shape evolution, but that he doesn't pose enough pressures, and that the pressure he poses is not enough.

And in any case its an idea, an interpretation, not a fact. The change is the fact. The pressure is an interpretation, a tool to make sense of the fact. It is an idea that, once conceived, is read into evolution.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:27 pm

Aventador wrote:The only complaint against Darwin is not that he proposes pressures that shape evolution, but that he doesn't pose enough pressures, and that the pressure he poses is not enough.

And in any case its an idea, an interpretation, not a fact. The change is the fact. The pressure is an interpretation, a tool to make sense of the fact. It is an idea that, once conceived, is read into evolution.

I agree with the above. I am not against Darwin, but I think he oversimplified in search of a physical mechanism that propels change.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:30 am

Ierrellus wrote:
Aventador wrote:The only complaint against Darwin is not that he proposes pressures that shape evolution, but that he doesn't pose enough pressures, and that the pressure he poses is not enough.

And in any case its an idea, an interpretation, not a fact. The change is the fact. The pressure is an interpretation, a tool to make sense of the fact. It is an idea that, once conceived, is read into evolution.

I agree with the above. I am not against Darwin, but I think he oversimplified in search of a physical mechanism that propels change.


Have you ever read Origin of Species?
His task was to overcome thousands of years of ignorance and stupidity.
He was not "oversimplifying" any thing. He was building up from the groundfloor.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:35 am

Ierrellus wrote:According to certain mystics there is a hunger within humans to reunite the part (human) with the Whole (God).

All mystics are simply fantasists.
There are honest fantasists. Examples would include Tolkien, GRR Martin, and Edmund Spencer, and dishonest ones called priests, and "seers".
I believe this hunger for completeness explains the need for a religious overview of creation and evolution.

The hunger is manufactured by manipulation of false hope.
You know this is true, yet you fool yourself.
Although God is inexplicable, the hunger for God is not. It's an actual experience, available to all.
Stem cells and genes display this experience in a physical way.
The physical is mirrored by the mental. as far as the mental can fathom reality.
Evolution is divine. It remains the search for completeness.
As Felix noted completeness is a goal. If you achieved it you would be dead.
So the hunger of the part is incentive and aspiration.
Believing this frees one from belief in the supernatural.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:10 pm

Can we get over Darwin and discuss possible reasons for evolutionary change.? We will not persuade naysayers that Darwinism contains revisions. Does no one here believe God did it from inside and outside us?
What do we owe to our environment and why?
Is devolution a possibility?
Are we our brother's keeper?
Have we evolved enough to know the answers to these important questions?
The Auden quote from "Sept. 1939" has never been more appropriate than it is in 2021.
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