Devolution

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Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:15 pm

We have evolved enough to consider our own devolution. Is there a viable future for humans? Or does it matter?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:29 pm

Ierrellus wrote:We have evolved enough to consider our own devolution. Is there a viable future for humans? Or does it matter?


There is no such thng as devolution.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:34 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:We have evolved enough to consider our own devolution. Is there a viable future for humans? Or does it matter?


There is no such thng as devolution.

I see it all around in the dumbing down, numbing of the general public, in the greed that fosters waste, in the breakdown of ecosystems, in the lack of real leaders. "The time is out of joint. . ."

"Mr. Kurtz--He dead!" The Congo made a savage out of him. He devolved.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:45 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:We have evolved enough to consider our own devolution. Is there a viable future for humans? Or does it matter?


There is no such thng as devolution.

Sure there is.
Some individuals within a species could develop many new disadvantageous mutations in their DNA leading to many new disadvantageous traits.
In spite of these many new bad mutations/traits, these individuals could still be just fit enough to pass them onto their offspring.
Overtime, these bad mutations/traits could multiply and compound.
If the environment were to suddenly get just a bit more difficult to survive in, many of these individuals, perhaps the entire species might suddenly die off, whereas their ancestors with fewer bad mutations/traits might've survived.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:10 pm

Yup, by chance they could develop many more new bad mutations/traits than new advantageous ones, evenly, throughout most or all of the population group, not just in a handful of individuals, potentially leading to mass die off in the future.
Last edited by Gloominary on Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:16 pm

Mutations that aren't so bad in the short term, but devastating in the long term if the environment were to suddenly become more challenging or differently challenging.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:09 pm

Gloominary,
The human race appears to progress two steps backward for each three steps forward.
The machine orientation to all that is has estranged us from our natural place in the universe,
Mind will conquer matter at mind's demise.
Are mind dominance and machine futurism mutations? Did we miss a step or two in our evolving?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:29 pm

William Golding's Lord of the Flies is a tale about adolescent boys, stranded on a deserted island. They turn savage. Is civilization a thin veneer over basic savagery? I previous alluded to Heart of Darkness--Conrad, in which a man who tried to bring civilization to savages succumbs to savagery.
What are these authors trying to tell us about humanity at its core?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:30 am

irrelius, i do believe, and have so for a long time, that civilization is a thin veneer over basic savagery. in real life over the years a saying that ive used in talking to friends and other people around me is that ''you can pave all the roads, build all the shopping malls, shine the marble so to speak that you want, but in the end, we are, have been and will always be in a jungle.' Everyone is just trying to outlive each other and own as much of our their time as they can, at whatever expense. i dont see how it could be any other way.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:09 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:irrelius, i do believe, and have so for a long time, that civilization is a thin veneer over basic savagery. in real life over the years a saying that ive used in talking to friends and other people around me is that ''you can pave all the roads, build all the shopping malls, shine the marble so to speak that you want, but in the end, we are, have been and will always be in a jungle.' Everyone is just trying to outlive each other and own as much of our their time as they can, at whatever expense. i dont see how it could be any other way.

Thanks for posting. I agree with your notion of an underlying jungle that is realized in peoples' treatment of each other. The West, especially, supports a dog eat dog society. Here identity as ego depends on what one possesses.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:52 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:We have evolved enough to consider our own devolution. Is there a viable future for humans? Or does it matter?


There is no such thng as devolution.

I see it all around in the dumbing down, numbing of the general public, in the greed that fosters waste, in the breakdown of ecosystems, in the lack of real leaders. "The time is out of joint. . ."

"Mr. Kurtz--He dead!" The Congo made a savage out of him. He devolved.


But you are running away with the idea that evolition is progressive and that there is such a thing as devolution (like backwards), . Nothing could be further from the truth.
Evolution is about fittness, and reproductive success. It is not judgemental.
If intelligence meant having more and more babies, then intelligence would be selected. As it is painfully obvious that smart people are more likely to plan their families, and use contraception, or decide to have no children at all then smartness if NOT selective.

Is that an actual quote from Heat of Darkness? If so it is not relevant.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:55 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:We have evolved enough to consider our own devolution. Is there a viable future for humans? Or does it matter?


There is no such thng as devolution.

Sure there is.
Some individuals within a species could develop many new disadvantageous mutations in their DNA leading to many new disadvantageous traits.
In spite of these many new bad mutations/traits, these individuals could still be just fit enough to pass them onto their offspring.
Overtime, these bad mutations/traits could multiply and compound.
If the environment were to suddenly get just a bit more difficult to survive in, many of these individuals, perhaps the entire species might suddenly die off, whereas their ancestors with fewer bad mutations/traits might've survived.

Talking bollocks
Evolution is the result of selective change.
If children are getting to adulthood to have more children then evolution is whatever traits got them there.
It's no wonder that AMericans are confused about evolution, if they think it has something to do with objective and progressive traits.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:55 pm

duplication
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:00 pm

Ierrellus wrote:William Golding's Lord of the Flies is a tale about adolescent boys, stranded on a deserted island. They turn savage. Is civilization a thin veneer over basic savagery? I previous alluded to Heart of Darkness--Conrad, in which a man who tried to bring civilization to savages succumbs to savagery.
What are these authors trying to tell us about humanity at its core?


Off topic.

So called civilisation has meant that natural weaknesses are not weeded out. Evolution proceeds in a different way, and you get people like Stephen Hawking live to a ripe old age, and people who would last five minutes in the wild, live to manage property portfolios and run for President.
What is more remarkable is that because of dumbocrasy people with severely limited intelligence like Trump ge the best jobs.
All the while evolution does not give a damn. Spawning babies is the only measure.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:04 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:William Golding's Lord of the Flies is a tale about adolescent boys, stranded on a deserted island. They turn savage. Is civilization a thin veneer over basic savagery? I previous alluded to Heart of Darkness--Conrad, in which a man who tried to bring civilization to savages succumbs to savagery.
What are these authors trying to tell us about humanity at its core?


Off topic.

So called civilisation has meant that natural weaknesses are not weeded out. Evolution proceeds in a different way, and you get people like Stephen Hawking live to a ripe old age, and people who would last five minutes in the wild, live to manage property portfolios and run for President.
What is more remarkable is that because of dumbocrasy people with severely limited intelligence like Trump ge the best jobs.
All the while evolution does not give a damn. Spawning babies is the only measure.

I suppose I am talking about the evolution of memes, instead of that of genes. That is if one can see the two as in some way dependent on each other. Anyway, thanks for the Dawkins take on the matter. Trump is a step back. Hawking was a step forward.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:59 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:William Golding's Lord of the Flies is a tale about adolescent boys, stranded on a deserted island. They turn savage. Is civilization a thin veneer over basic savagery? I previous alluded to Heart of Darkness--Conrad, in which a man who tried to bring civilization to savages succumbs to savagery.
What are these authors trying to tell us about humanity at its core?


Off topic.

So called civilisation has meant that natural weaknesses are not weeded out. Evolution proceeds in a different way, and you get people like Stephen Hawking live to a ripe old age, and people who would last five minutes in the wild, live to manage property portfolios and run for President.
What is more remarkable is that because of dumbocrasy people with severely limited intelligence like Trump ge the best jobs.
All the while evolution does not give a damn. Spawning babies is the only measure.

I suppose I am talking about the evolution of memes, instead of that of genes. That is if one can see the two as in some way dependent on each other. Anyway, thanks for the Dawkins take on the matter. Trump is a step back. Hawking was a step forward.


Memes of genes. Evolutionary studies at their best to not make value judgements.
Its called science.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:56 pm

So one cannot use value judgments in the study of evolution? Then how do we know evolution is about progression?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:10 pm

Talking bollocks
Evolution is the result of selective change.
If children are getting to adulthood to have more children then evolution is whatever traits got them there.
It's no wonder that AMericans are confused about evolution, if they think it has something to do with objective and progressive traits.

But not every mutation got them there, some helped them get there (evolution), some were neutral and others hindered them (devolution).
Look I don't care how science defines the word evolution, fuck science, we're redefining the word you imbecile.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:22 pm

Another thing idiot, sometimes species fall apart.
This happens when many, most or all individuals within a species develop significantly more new bad traits than new good ones.
Their birthrate is reduced and the birthrate of fitter individuals within the species either isn't enough to compensate or they breed with the less fit.
This can lead to mass die off potentially culminating in extinction.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:29 pm

Species decline and go extinct for internal reasons, not just external ones.
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:37 pm

Gloominary wrote:Species decline and go extinct for internal reasons, not just external ones.


You are making false distinctions.
Care to furnish an example?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:38 pm

Gloominary wrote:Another thing idiot, sometimes species fall apart.
This happens when many, most or all individuals within a species develop significantly more new bad traits than new good ones.
Their birthrate is reduced and the birthrate of fitter individuals within the species either isn't enough to compensate or they breed with the less fit.
This can lead to mass die off potentially culminating in extinction.


Care to give an example, or are you just bullshitting as usual?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Sculptor » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:39 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Talking bollocks
Evolution is the result of selective change.
If children are getting to adulthood to have more children then evolution is whatever traits got them there.
It's no wonder that AMericans are confused about evolution, if they think it has something to do with objective and progressive traits.

But not every mutation got them there, some helped them get there (evolution), some were neutral and others hindered them (devolution).

There is no devolution. Negative traits do not persist, thats called natural selection.
Look I don't care how science defines the word evolution, fuck science, we're redefining the word you imbecile.

You are clearly the imbecile!!
Have you had any viable progeny, or do women shun you?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:49 pm

There is no devolution. Negative traits do not persist, thats called natural selection.

Sure they do moron, what do you think cancer is to use but one example.
Are many cancers not genetic?

You are clearly the imbecile!!
Have you had any viable progeny, or do women shun you?

Is your cock as impotent as your brain?
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Re: Devolution

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:40 pm

Sure they do moron, what do you think cancer is to use but one example.
Are many cancers not genetic?

Not only are they genetic, but some parasitical genes that produce cancers and other debilitations are passed down from one generation to the next over the course of thousands or perhaps millions of years.
They inhibit survival, but nonetheless manage to replicate themselves.
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