Rome

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Re: Rome

Postby promethean75 » Mon May 31, 2021 11:41 pm

"I think mice should tread softly and quietly in the presents of cats and rats"

as if
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Re: Rome

Postby Otto » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:28 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Otto -

Otto wrote:There were no parties in Rome as we know them, but nevertheless there were two camps that could be called just "Roman parties", and these two camps were first the patriciate and the plebs (plebeians),

Indeed, the distinction between more and less powerful, between privileged and less privileged, has run through Roman history until the vast spoils of conquest had driven the distinction to extremes, at which point it became possible for politicians to exploit this distinction. I believe that to be the crux of the matter; though the differences are significant, there is a comparison to be made with the rise of socialism and the downfall of aristocratic civilization in early modernity and the rise of hypocritical despotism; the idea of playing to passions of the plebs has been the most dangerous idea in Roman politics. Before Sulla, I believe the Patricians were rather restrained in employing this means as they knew such methods could turn against them as easily as the wind may turn at any given moment. Populism was not, to be short, the sort of Roman method that led them to their glory. It was simply used when this glory had already been established.

then the optimates and populars, before the whole thing became purely private, but nevertheless again two camps emerged (while the senate was already quite paralyzed): Marians and Sullans, Caesarians and Pompeians, and even Augustus, at the time when he was still called Octavian, faced another camp, that of Antony. Only Augustus ended this old political dichotomy and with it the republic.

Yes.

Since Marius' military reform the soldiers had become followers of their leaders (the most important: Marius, Sulla, Pompey, Caesar, Octavian, Antony), had got their pay directly from them. The army had been quasi private since this reform.

Yes, thank you - I believe this is especially relevant. We might say that Marius' reforms really were the downfall of the structural integrity of Roman Law.

Yup. And thanks for your reply.
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Re: Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:36 pm

You are welcome.

As the administrative liberality introduced into the military-bureaucratic protocols corrupted the Republics machinery, so the total liberality to which the approach of emperors to their military descended brought ruin on the empire.

Severus, Caracalla.

Symptom of the decline was blatantly shown in the venerated fool Marcus Aurelius, who had the insolence of demanding that the Senate proclaim his wife a goddess, to be venerated with Venus, Juno, Vesta, Ceres, and consequently showed his stupidity in transferring the Empire into the hands of his worthless son.

A very far cry from the profound religion of Caesar, who started his career as a Flamen of Quirinus, and whose pick of successor was based on thorough examination of character, merit.

But the decline had set in even with them; Both Caesar and his adopted son were on their death deified. The introduction of the practice of deifying humans very swiftly annihilated the worth of the Roman culture, and paved the way for the invention of Christianity.
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Re: Rome

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:49 am

"The introduction of the practice of deifying humans very swiftly annihilated the worth of the Roman culture"

If that's true I imagine Rome would have ended the moment it began, because nearly two generations before Aurelius the first emporer Augustus established the 'imperial cult of Rome' - a nice little spin convincing everyone that the rulers had divine authority.

So it was already part of roman culture for the elite to associate themselves with gods and demigods and to believe they even possessed divine power (they do this when a lucky guess wins a battle, for example. It was general so and sos great call that won the war, and that great call was divinely inspired, etc.).

So now what? Does this fact change ur whole shit up, or is it only a minor inaccuracy. I guess my question is, does it even matter if u were wrong?
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Re: Rome

Postby Vittorio » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:32 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:It came into being as a refutation of the old monarchy. Hence, when Caesar declared himself king,


There is a slight distinction between Rex and Imperator. No, he did not declare himself a king. Consider Napoleon, who executed a similar act: he was not a king, but rather as Imperator set up kings or democracies as it suited him in the different provinces he anexed. An imperator is a very different thing, because he does not rule over a tribe. He rules over a res publica.

Res publica does not mean state. Let us not allow google translate to determine what things mean.

The distinction is very important. Without understanding it, there is no hope of understanding, for example, the Russian and generally Eastern European mentality. Even Stalin was never regarded as a king in any sense. Not by the Russians anyway.

Now. The difference between a state, or a tribe, or a nation, and a res publica is important, if impossible to understand for members of the former who have not experienced the latter. Indeed, it has no necessary correlation with any style of government.

Fixed Cross wrote:Augustus finally did away with this balance of power,


On the contrary, Augustus established a balance of power. One that would last to our days.

But even this is not linked to the res publica in any necessary way. This was the genius of Cesar, and of Octavian, as a team. Not for nothing the two prettier months bear their name.

Fixed Cross wrote:I disagree - Caesars mission was, like all Roman missions, of a personal nature; that is the sublime nature of the ancients which we have lost in the modern age,


The wisdom was that the personal nature of a mission did not negate the sociatel nature of its effect. That something was personal, for the ancients (and many not so ancients), did in no way constitute a contradiction or hypocrisy regarding societal aims, political aims. Even Margaret Thatcher openly spoke about this, if already on the defensive.

Indeed, a Roman is likely to say, what can fuel a societal mission but personal aims? Some persons, they probably would say, are simply superior.

The power struggles of the elite, including Cesar and Octavian, as well as the generals and aristocrats you mention, do not constitute the res publica, the res publica indeed is not a state, though on the results of these does depend its future.

Fixed Cross wrote:So expansion was necessary, yet also disastrous.


Again, I am not refering to expansion of a state, or a tribe, but of the res publica.

Fixed Cross wrote:
The res publica was not a tribe or a nation, or a state, or a government.



It was in fact a very strictly defined collection of tribes.


No, it was not.

Fixed Cross wrote:The Romans didn't use the term as readily, they discerned sharply between the different peoples they were subjecting


In modern times, too, Indians are carefully and admiringly studied, including by the very first missionary priests and monks.

Fixed Cross wrote:, the Republic was something as sacred as the Gods.


I believe you are referring to the Senate.

The res publica is neither sacred nor heretical nor mundane.

Fixed Cross wrote:Octavian, who most certainly did not consider anyone in Rome to be his equal.


What can a Roman do but smile. Still, this was largely of a retaliatory nature. A son guarding his father's legacy against his assassins.

Fixed Cross wrote:Namely: power and majesty. They were more honest than our time is capable of.


This goes under the discussion about personal versus societal we are having.

I believe modern politicians are unable to hold both because they are not individuals. They are members of a party, servants. A servant, of course, cannot have any personal motivations.
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Re: Rome

Postby Vittorio » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:09 pm

@Fixed Cross, I replied to your reply, but sadly it seems to have been lost. I wonder if an administrator could retrieve it?
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Re: Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:37 pm

Apparently we are still caught in the jaws of the conflict between the Mediterranean Europeans and the Northern Europeans.

The Romans and consequently the Cristians keep referring to any other nation and peoples but themselves as barbarians, even to this date, historians often use that name (hence my own monicker barbarian horde, meaning, translated from Imperialistic language, tribe of free humans, non-fascists, non-slaves) - and we know that late Imperial Rome and Christianity excelled above all things in one thing: the destruction of happy ancient cultures. The burning down of the library of Alexandria is just one example.

It is unfortunate that this fact casts such a shadow on the name of Rome and obscures its noble Republican origins.
Rome is an example of how power overpowers its own values. It is an indication that power hasn't been understood well enough - that the aspect of power that is value, which is its fundamental aspect (what is power if it is not valuable? Surely not power) has not been integrated into the conquest-driven behavior of mankind.

Conquest has usually been coupled with destruction of what is conquered. This is silly. It is an insult to ones own strength.
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Re: Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:33 pm

Note, it is not Rome or its might that I object to (that would be ridiculous, especially as I am high priest of its chief deity) but moderners random notions of its structure, institutions, ethics; in teaching them a bit about the actual nature of Rome I sometimes lose my patience with the boastfulness of their ignorance. This boastful ignorance is definitively not Roman; quite simply because the stakes at Rome were immensely high, ignorance was punished. I may seem harsh and unreasonable in dishing out my punishments but believe me, I am very mild by Roman standards.
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Re: Rome

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:24 pm

Good friend, if you had addressed any of the points that were raised or in any way continued the discussion, I would answer in that vain.

However, you answer with some kind of moralistic complaint about the course of history, which I cannot relate to, nor have any interest in. As I wrote elsewhere, many neo communist and neo nazi organizations will be happy to accommodate you.

I will say that your interpretation of Rome seems to be confused, wavering from high praise to bitter reproach, from being described as the pinnacle of culture to dumb savages. This cannot be countered in discourse. Some of the specific points we raised could be, but you show no intrest in those. One conjectures it is either because they are beyond your current reach of understanding, or your bitter emotions of being the victim of Rome blind you, as bitter emotions will, to any kind of detailed and nuanced discussion of an interesting topic.
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Re: Rome

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:48 pm

I will also add that this is a characteristic of Goth peoples.

And it is due to reasons I have stated. I have also provided possible solutions, like leaving your Gothic comfort zone and immersing yourself in a civilized culture, or, really, any culture other than your own.

When one leaves the civilized confines of a Roman land and enters a predominantly Gothic realm, the difference is palpable. Barbaric constructs like race and ethnicity, obviously the same thing, dominate every discussion. The way a Goth walks down the streets in a predominantly Gothic land reeks of self-isolation, of having no contact with the danger that comes with the wonder of mixing with other peoples. Every person exists in their own category, and deviation is strenuously criticized. The exception is Republicans, who were noble enough to take a Roman name, and have no shame in exhibiting pride in their inheritance, as they are aware of populating a world where many exist, and are subject to mixing. Compare president Trump's rhetoric regarding Arabs and Iranians, always wanting to do business, to mix, without deluding himself that they are all the same, to Mr Biden's and that of other racist Goths, focused on isolating and preserving the differences between peoples, keeping inferior peoples, like the Arabs (in his savage view) safe.

I did not wish to draw any correlations with modern politics, as it requires a nuance that is even far greater than the nuance required to discuss the topics I have raised which are much more separated from modern times. However, I no longer hold much faith that either will be possible. My intention in writing here, in any case, is to record some interesting thoughts, and discuss them. The nature and condition of those that discuss with me are not my concern.
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Re: Rome

Postby Gloominary » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:11 am

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Re: Rome

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:34 am

I think FC's complaint is actually about political monopolies. It is monopolies that destroy democracies. When there is only one monopoly you have socialism - a type of autocratic dictatorship.

Most pseudo-democratic nations have many political parties and that makes them a little more democratic - but not much more. The US has 3 registered parties - Republican, Democrat (socialist now), and Independent (totally ineffectual) but they also have monopoly unions, media cabal, and corporations - each a type of monopoly. So even in the US there are actually many political parties but most are not called a "party".

The biggest mistake that the US has ever made is allowing unions to not be separation of power constitutional entities (as they did for their States). They allowed socialism and other monopolies to grow like cancers within their body. Now the cancer is festering and killing the body.

Rome was not so complex - easier to stabilize.
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Re: Rome

Postby promethean75 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:58 am

"It is monopolies that destroy democracies. When there is only one monopoly you have socialism - a type of autocratic dictatorship."
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Re: Rome

Postby perpetualburn » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:21 pm

As a pillar of rising smoke did my angel condescend and appear, standing without reserve on the exhausted banks of infinite sorrow.

"There, where the state CEASETH—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?" -N

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Re: Rome

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:45 pm



satyr wrote:
half-breed wannabe Jew\ wrote:I spent many years thinking about it in this way -
but my patience, what I thought was my higher self, led to being actually physically abused by a family member (not a parent) and to a lot of other very flagrant abuses. I was recovering, or trying to recover, o the trauma of the extremely weird and offensive death of my best friend pretty much next to my bed, which is still with me. I got into yoga as a result of that trauma and this yoga doctrine with its motto 'what I give to others I dont give away' has made ten years of my life into a rape-fest. Pretty much everyone was making use of me, I was running here and there to serve people I thought loved me, thinking I was doing my higher will.

When I discovered value ontology, I made the first steps of being freed of that. But, as people have noticed here, Im still very much battling with this trauma. I at least now have enough self-respect to, when someone is taking everything from me without respecting me, I get angry and make it known that it is not appreciated. But it doesnt really alter peoples behavior, I still struggle with the fact that I spent nearly ten years dedicated almost entirely to the benefit of a group of friends who ended up treating me like trash and shitting on the projects we did together like they are jokes. Its pretty fucking horrible and obviously I spend a lot of time in sorrow over that; the same thing occurred with he death of my friend, I had just spent two years working for him at his music and then he kills himself right where we made all that music. The memory of his rotting corpse is now with me recently, it had been put to be shown for a week, I stupidly decided to go see it the last day. Long blue nails, long grey hair, he was 19....

all that is part of just giving, being patient, accepting.

In the end I just have no idea. My higher self must be able to protect me from humiliations by people I am dedicated to, or it is just a martyr like a christ in real life, meaning that there is no redemption of the sacrifice.


satyr wrote: See?
I said that the choice of "value", in his nonsense Value Ontology, was not accidental.
He feels unappreciated. Not valued by others.
He is obsessed with the idea of making himself valued by all - even if it is after death.
He covets Nietzsche's effect on young male minds.
The young male component is not accidental, either. He wants to protect his past self - represented by young males - in the present, to find redemption - to find closure.
When a theory - a philosophy - has no references in reality, i.e., world outside the mind - then it must have references inside the mind; what lacks exoteric/external validation must seek esoteric/internal validation.
People expose themselves through their choices....and their choice of words indicate motive, especially when the words are used not to refer to an attainable objective or object in the world.


And what both share in common -- in my own opinion of course -- is the fact they employ ponderous intellectual contraptions in order to avoid references to reality out in the world of actual human interactions that precipitate conflicting points of view about any number of things.

Unless of course either here or there they might be willing to focus in on a particular set of circumstances and exchange components of their own moral and political and philosophical TOE.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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Re: Rome

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:50 pm

iambiguous wrote:

Why is the second copy paste regarding Satyr in this thread when it has NOTHING to do with Rome?
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Re: Rome

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:27 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
iambiguous wrote:

Why is the second copy paste regarding Satyr in this thread when it has NOTHING to do with Rome?


Let's just say that we all connect the dots here differently.

Or, perhaps, subconsciously, my aim was to remind you that there are dots that you aren't connecting with me here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=197118
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Rome

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:32 pm

iambiguous wrote:[quotequote="iambiguous"]

Why is the second copy paste regarding Satyr in this thread when it has NOTHING to do with Rome?[/quote]

Let's just say that we all connect the dots here differently. [/quote]


Only a horses ass would be contemptuous enough to connect those dots in a mean spirited advertisement.

=D> Applause for the glib horse’s ass! =D>
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Re: Rome

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:50 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Why is the second copy paste regarding Satyr in this thread when it has NOTHING to do with Rome?


Let's just say that we all connect the dots here differently.



WendyDarling wrote:Only a horses ass would be contemptuous enough to connect those dots in a mean spirited advertisement.


Nope, nothing about Rome here.

Come on, Wendy, most of threads here are like the game "telephone". There's the OP and then the last post. You tell me: How many times has the latter bore almost no resemblance to the former?

You may not see the dots I'm connecting but if Satyr and Fixed Cross think long and hard enough, they might. As I noted, it can be about Rome or any number of things. It's not the points being raised but how far up into the clouds they are being hoisted. One of my own "things" here.

So, see you on that other thread then, okay?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Rome

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:12 pm

.
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Re: Rome

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:16 am

WendyDarling wrote:.


When in Rome? 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:45 pm

Wendy, it's a good thing that iambiguous has finally found his way into the sewer, it was about time. Predictably, he relishes its "meaning".

obsrvr524 wrote:I think FC's complaint is actually about political monopolies. It is monopolies that destroy democracies. When there is only one monopoly you have socialism - a type of autocratic dictatorship.

Thats not wrong. Not precisely what I mean but close enough, and given the abysmal intellectual level of the average reader here it would count as remarkably accurate.

But what is most problematic about political parties is that they guarantee deception in terms of agenda - most of all, their self-deception. A political party can never understand its own motives, other than the obvious one of primitive dominion. So you get a monopoly of entities which are forced by the factor of power and their own lack of structural integrity to deceive themselves.

Most pseudo-democratic nations have many political parties and that makes them a little more democratic - but not much more. The US has 3 registered parties - Republican, Democrat (socialist now), and Independent (totally ineffectual) but they also have monopoly unions, media cabal, and corporations - each a type of monopoly. So even in the US there are actually many political parties but most are not called a "party".

The biggest mistake that the US has ever made is allowing unions to not be separation of power constitutional entities (as they did for their States). They allowed socialism and other monopolies to grow like cancers within their body. Now the cancer is festering and killing the body.

Rome was not so complex - easier to stabilize.

I see this differently. Rome was highly complex at first, but the monopolies represented by the Caesars found this complexity burdensome.
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Re: Rome

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:11 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Wendy, it's a good thing that iambiguous has finally found his way into the sewer, it was about time. Predictably, he relishes its "meaning".


Speaking of sewers, why don't you join us here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... &start=550

You popped up recently. You know, given Satyr's own take on your own take on my own take on "meaning".

And, of course, Wendy is invited. 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Rome

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:36 am

_
Rome’s power dissolved for the same reason that Alexander the Great’s did.. and of whom the latter never did conquer India, save for only the most north-western aspects of its territories, in the Indus Valley Basin.
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Re: Rome

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:14 am

MagsJ wrote:_
Rome’s power dissolved for the same reason that Alexander the Great’s did.. and of whom the latter never did conquer India, save for only the most north-western aspects of its territories, in the Indus Valley Basin.

Alexander's power did not dissolve.
He died and his generals carried on their separate kingdoms formed from the empire. This formed the Hellenistic world, which dominated until Rome replaced it.
Rome's fall was utterly different and would take several pages of explanation to show how it was invaded, changed, divided recombined, evolved, and survives today in the Vatican which is the last place that shows a contiunous link back to the Ponfiex Maximus of Caesar.
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