the culture wars

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the culture wars

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 26, 2022 5:39 pm

In thinking about the decades long conservative
culture wars (it began during the Raygun years, circa 1980)
I see I have been asking the asking the wrong questions,
what I should have been asking is, why the attacks on
culture? Why do conservatives focus on culture more then
any aspect of today's society/state including laws, government,
economics, history and philosophy?

ask them a question, conservatives, and the ''problem'' of culture
will come up.. what is wrong with America, and they will bring
up culture issues, gays, trans, grooming, prayer in school,
all culture, all the time...

but why?

Why this focus on culture issues ahead of all other issues?

ask the conservative about what I consider to be the
greatest issue in America today, income inequality,
and their answer will inevitable will be about some
culture issue...

I have heard some conservatives say, with a straight face,
that the greatest issue facing America today, is the left
"woke" problem... really, that is the greatest problem facing
America today? not 21 people being shot in Texas, but American's being
"woke", a culture war issue?

So, ask yourself, is 18 children being shot less of an issue then
the "Left woke issue?"

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 26, 2022 5:57 pm

if being trans, or gay or any other culture issue is actually a
problem, then feel free to name me, one gay, trans, gender issue
person to actually commit mass murder, you know, shoot up a school,
kill 19 children.... I'll wait..

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Sculptor » Thu May 26, 2022 6:05 pm

Do we know anything about the recent shooter?
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 26, 2022 6:18 pm

Sculptor wrote:Do we know anything about the recent shooter?


K: not yet...
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: the culture wars

Postby MagsJ » Thu May 26, 2022 8:33 pm

Sculptor wrote:Do we know anything about the recent shooter?

On May 24, 2022, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos opened fire at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, United States, killing nineteen students and two teachers, and wounding seventeen people. Earlier that day, he had shot and wounded his grandmother. He was shot and killed on the scene by a Border Patrol agent.

____
Texas school shooting – latest: Anger as police admit hour delay stopping gunman and school was unlocked

The Uvalde, Texas mass shooter told a German girl he was chatting with online that he shot his grandmother in the face and planned to attack an ...

Officials have admitted that 18-year-old Salvador Ramos was in the school for up to an hour, during which time he murdered 19 children and two ...

Police who responded to the Texas school massacre have been accused of being “unprepared” and failing to respond as videos reveal parents pleading with officers outside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde on Tuesday.

Parents said they urged officers to move into school as the AR-15-wielding assailant fatally shot two teachers and 19 pupils.

The father of 10-year-old victim Jacklyn Cazares said he even suggested he could go in himself with other bystanders as he was frustrated police were not doing it themselves.

Details of the timeline and events remain unclear, including whether officers failed to prevent 18-year-old gunman Salvador Ramos from entering the school, and whether he “barricaded” himself inside a classroom before or after killing fourth-grade children inside.

Messages from Ramos to recipients on social media appear to show him flaunting his weapons and announcing plans to “shoot up a elementary school” moments before the killings.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Sculptor » Thu May 26, 2022 9:59 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Sculptor wrote:Do we know anything about the recent shooter?

On May 24, 2022, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos opened fire at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, United States, killing nineteen students and two teachers, and wounding seventeen people. Earlier that day, he had shot and wounded his grandmother. He was shot and killed on the scene by a Border Patrol agent.

____
Texas school shooting – latest: Anger as police admit hour delay stopping gunman and school was unlocked

The Uvalde, Texas mass shooter told a German girl he was chatting with online that he shot his grandmother in the face and planned to attack an ...

Officials have admitted that 18-year-old Salvador Ramos was in the school for up to an hour, during which time he murdered 19 children and two ...

Police who responded to the Texas school massacre have been accused of being “unprepared” and failing to respond as videos reveal parents pleading with officers outside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde on Tuesday.

Parents said they urged officers to move into school as the AR-15-wielding assailant fatally shot two teachers and 19 pupils.

The father of 10-year-old victim Jacklyn Cazares said he even suggested he could go in himself with other bystanders as he was frustrated police were not doing it themselves.

Details of the timeline and events remain unclear, including whether officers failed to prevent 18-year-old gunman Salvador Ramos from entering the school, and whether he “barricaded” himself inside a classroom before or after killing fourth-grade children inside.

Messages from Ramos to recipients on social media appear to show him flaunting his weapons and announcing plans to “shoot up a elementary school” moments before the killings.


I am given to understand that the school was fully compliant with new safety rules concerning a fence and gate system and had 3 armed security officers on site.
And that Despite Cruz saying we need to go after criminals and mentally ill people, the boy shooter had no history of either criminality nor a history of mental illness.
Obviously as a person who lives in a world without guns I am horrified that a boy could get hold of an automatic weapon with enough ammo to kill 22 people.
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 26, 2022 11:00 pm

Sculptor":
I am given to understand that the school was fully compliant with new safety rules concerning a fence and gate system and had 3 armed security officers on site.
And that Despite Cruz saying we need to go after criminals and mentally ill people, the boy shooter had no history of either criminality nor a history of mental illness.
Obviously as a person who lives in a world without guns I am horrified that a boy could get hold of an automatic weapon with enough ammo to kill 22 people.''

K; given the GOP/MAGA desire to force everyone in America to
have a gun... this is exactly what the radical ring wing wants,
for everyone in America to be as afraid of the world as
conservatives are...and carry around weapons, despite the fact
that even trained police officers refused to engage with the
shooter. Having guns clearly did not protect that school or has stopped
any recent shootings... as having guns has not solved this problem,

let us try a new tack, make getting a gun as hard as getting
an abortion...or driving a car...or even getting baby formula...
gun control is the best option... unless you favor mass shootings?
as the conservatives seem to favor...

Are you actually pro-life or are you pro-gun/death?

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
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Re: the culture wars

Postby MagsJ » Thu May 26, 2022 11:53 pm

Sculptor wrote:I am given to understand that the school was fully compliant with new safety rules concerning a fence and gate system and had 3 armed security officers on site.
And that Despite Cruz saying we need to go after criminals and mentally ill people, the boy shooter had no history of either criminality nor a history of mental illness.
Obviously as a person who lives in a world without guns I am horrified that a boy could get hold of an automatic weapon with enough ammo to kill 22 people.

Something triggered him, to do that..

The BBC News at 10 said that the guy had twice as much ammo as a soldier would carry. He obviously intended to go on a much-longer rampage, considering that fact.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri May 27, 2022 4:32 am

magsj, i think he had around 400 rounds. "twice what a soldier would carry" may sound like a lot, but as a guy from Alabama, i can tell you that pretty much all the gun nuts keep 1000s of rounds of ammo on hand. they order it by the crate from places like cheaperthandirt dot com. 500 rounds for $259 bucks if you want this russian surplus berdan primed, non-reloadable, steel cased stuff. it's the cheapest right now but still expensive. any time the democrats are in charge, all the gun stores do the whole fearmongering thing about how democrats are going to ban guns and so then they price gouge. last time i got a crate of these is was 99 bucks.

i can assure you that no matter how bad this gets, or how many kids die, that neither side in the US is going to do anything to slow down the flow of weapons. not sure how much time you've spent here, or if any of that time has been spent outside of major cities, but the average small american town has more guns and ammunition stockpiled than the average small town in a war zone. it's a real clusterfuck.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ammunit ... 0%20Rounds
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri May 27, 2022 4:44 am

some things that people refer to as "common sense gun control" include things like universal background checks, so that you can't buy a gun without a background check. this is already the case with dealers who have a federal firearms license, (a requirement for anyone who sells more than a certain number of guns in a year), but not for individual sales. so people go to gun shows and in civic centers all over the place and they just walk around where there are tables full of all kinds of guns that people sell privately between one another which allows anyone, including felons barred from possessing a firearm, to just buy one in a private sale without a background check. universal background check laws would in theory close this loophole. i'm not sure how it could be implemented. but i can tell you that the argument that "criminals are going to get guns anyway so gun restrictions only hurt law abiding citizens" falls on it's face when you walk into a gun show. that's where they get them. i've been to 100s of them and that's where they get them. you can buy and sell guns in there without even giving anyone your name or ID. there isn't some dark alleyway in every town where gun wanting felons can just go and buy a gun off a truck. it happens at gun shows. closing that loophole would mean less guns on the street and would make it harder for people who are criminals to get them.

another one is to limit the number of rounds allowed in a magazine. in california, for a long time, you couldn't have a rifle that held more than 10 rounds. so after 10 rounds you'd have to reload. the argument is that this prevents someone from being able to get a 100rd drum magazine and shoot up an entire school in a matter of minutes. from a practical law enforcement standpoint, the best time to tackle a gunman is when he's out of ammo and needs to reload. that might have helped the situation yesterday but who knows. anyway, the supreme court struck down california's magazine limits and so now they can have however many bullets in their guns as they want out there. people with common sense expect more gun related deaths.

then there are red flag laws. these are a bit vague but the idea as i understand it is something similar to what would happen if you told your psychiatrist that you wanted to shoot up a school. right now there is dr/patient confidentiality, but on certain things, like planning a murder, your psychiatrist has a legal duty to report to authorities if you are an imminent threat to others. so some expansion of that idea across the world of gun related regulation is the idea. a lot of these shooters tell people or publicly display behavior that indicates what their intentions are, and the idea is that we want to go ahead and get the guns from them before their victims are dead on the floor. there are some problems with how this would be implemented and who would be the one to decide what constitutes a red flag. republicans voted down a bill to open debate on it.

the right and the left in the us are not the same as the right and the left in your country magsj. here, the right to the extent that that means, the republicans, do not give af about hearing a single word about anything related to potentially curbing gun ownership. trump's final scotus pick, amy coney barrett, literally made the argument in the past that "shall not be infringed" in the 2nd amendment means that denying gun rights to felons is unconstitutional.

it's going to get worse and a lot more people are going to get shot and if you watch closely you'll see who's on what side when it comes to public safety vs the individual right to own what most people see as a weapon of war. look at what they're willing to sacrifice and decide for yourself.
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri May 27, 2022 4:56 am

when i was a kid, we reloaded our own ammo. i would spot wheel weights that fell off cars in parking lots and pick them up to take home, and we had a lead pot and i would melt them down (under proper ventilation) and literally cast my own bullets for making ammo. there was a whole room in the house that we just called the reloading room. when i was 5 my mom made a sandbag so that they could prop me up and let me shoot at the range, and i've fired more rounds over the course of my life than most people do over a few years in the army. countless. i can't even fathom the number. i would cast lead, weigh out the powder and use a manual press and hand load 1000s or rounds a month and then go to the range like it was a regular thing for years and year. i've been to 100s of gun shows and i've owned all manner of firearm if it exists then i've probably bought sold or traded one. i grew up in it. i've heard all the rhetoric, i know all the scare tactics, and the same debate that's happening now has been happening for decades. there's nothing new except that more guns and ammo are available to more people than there ever have been and now lots more people are getting shot.

i'm not anti 2A but i will tell you that it's a fact that all these people out here calling themselves "responsible gun owners" aren't. they just aren't. responsible gun owners secure their weapons and don't allow them into the hands of mentally unstable people. they don't advocate for even less restriction on the ability to own and carry in a place where those restrictions are already near non existent.

for example, in Alabama, years ago to carry a handgun you had to keep it concealed. i think that's just good manners. but then they got rid of that and allowed open carry. ok. sure. but what for?

then if you wanted to conceal it, you had to pay 7 dollars and fill out a notecard sized piece of paper and take it to your local sheriff's office and get a permit that was good for 4 years. the policy was that the sherriff "can issue" the permit.

then they changed the language and made it "shall issue" so that you couldn't be denied, (unless you're a felon).

even the cops were mad about this, maybe because it took some power from them, but maybe because they know that it's bad for public safety for everyone to just have pistols in their pants.

so then...the right comes up with this idea of what they call "constitutional carry". what that means is that there are no restrictions on anyone because...as they cite...4 words of the 2nd amendment which are "shall not be infringed", (ignoring the rest of the words in the amendment).

but it's a hit! so they go with it because you know...the democrats are gonna take yer gunz! (like that time obama and clinton held the white house for 16 years...and didn't take your guns)..

so now in alabama we have "constitutional carry" which means anyone can carry whatever they want hidden or not and there is no requirement for a permit.

before if the cop saw someone with a gun he could say, "lemme check your permit" and sort out felons and bad guys with guns.

now, because of "constitutional carry" just seeing a guy with a gun does not give the cops probable cause to stop him and ask him anything, as there is no permit to check because there's no need for one.

what's the next step here?

they've been saying for years that the left wants to take your guns, but the reality is that the laws have become more and more loose in every place where the right is in charge, (think texas). so what gives?

what is a reasonable restriction on a person's right to bear arms?
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri May 27, 2022 4:58 am

right now, any 18 year old can walk into a store and buy whatever gun they have in stock and all the ammo they have in stock and walk out in under 15 mins in a lot of cases. they aren't old enough to have a felony on their record yet if it's their 18th bday.

if they are a felon, they can do the same at a gun show.


is this ok?
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Re: the culture wars

Postby Sculptor » Fri May 27, 2022 1:32 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Sculptor wrote:I am given to understand that the school was fully compliant with new safety rules concerning a fence and gate system and had 3 armed security officers on site.
And that Despite Cruz saying we need to go after criminals and mentally ill people, the boy shooter had no history of either criminality nor a history of mental illness.
Obviously as a person who lives in a world without guns I am horrified that a boy could get hold of an automatic weapon with enough ammo to kill 22 people.

Something triggered him, to do that..

The BBC News at 10 said that the guy had twice as much ammo as a soldier would carry. He obviously intended to go on a much-longer rampage, considering that fact.


I hear that 90% of Americans actually want so sort of gun legislation and that in (Democratic) States where some laws do exist there are fewer gun crimes.
One has to say Duh.

In my view 21 would be a reasonable age.
A gun registration scheme - you have to register a car FFS!
A simple licensing system for carrying and using a firearm. Like a drivers licence would require a basic safety test, proficiency test.
Obviously any criminal record or mental health record would have to be taken into account to keep a licence.
I'd also go for a ban on automatics.

The gun lobby has ZERO sensible arguments against these provisions.
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