Let's talk Energy

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Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:56 pm

When you talk about sustainability or "cleanliness" in energy, what you are referring to is the amount of energy a source produces vs the amount of resources it consumes. All resources consumed will constitute waste, referred to often as "polution" and, in specific cases, as "carbon."

The more efficient an energy source is, the less resources it will consume for a given amount of electricity or mechanical power, and the less waste will result.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:39 pm

I think you need to distinguish between 'cleanliness' and Efficiency. An energy type can be highly efficient, but very dirty and polluting. This was the case of burning coal, which smog'd up the skies during the Industrial Revolution. However, technology moved away from air pollutants for more than a century now. Gas and oil pollute far less than they used to, due to chemical enhancement of gasoline and air filtration in cars and vehicles.

What the Leftist/Liberal/Democrat establishment wants is "pure energy" with "zero calories". But, they refuse to accept Nuclear energy. They also believe wind and solar energy are "clean", while ignoring the amount of gasoline/oil required to maintain those systems.


It boils-down to who owns the energy companies, and which types, versus the EPA and Environmentalists who dictate policy of the far-left. As I said in the other thread, yesterday, Neo-Liberals want to drive around in their Electric Vehicles believing that their energy is "clean", so that they can have a clean conscience. They want to eat their cake, with zero calories. They necessarily *IGNORE* where their energy comes from, when they recharge their EVs. They need to ignore the increase in their electricity bill at home. And they believe that EV charging stations won't have taxes and fees....which they will, very soon. It's a delusion, and a short-lived delusion.

Oil and Gas still dominate the energy market, and probably will for another Century, until Efficiency catches up or surpasses the Oil Industry. However, who knows, Science may fail in alternatives. Oil could potentially dominate for centuries to come, if it continues to increase in its own efficiency.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:44 pm

Read the OP again. It will help you a lot.

Polution is a byproduct of the consumption of resources. What an energy source being efficient means is that it uses less resources, and produces less byproduct as a result, a byproduct known as "polution" and sometimes "carbon."
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:45 pm

For example, oil is considerably more efficient than coal, so consumes less resources and produces less waste, or "pollution."
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:31 pm

-
Using politicians creates a great deal of waste and serious, deadly societal pollution.

So let's mandate a zero-politician society by 2030.

Maybe we can hire AOC to promote it. :D
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:04 am

origami wrote:Read the OP again. It will help you a lot.

Polution is a byproduct of the consumption of resources. What an energy source being efficient means is that it uses less resources, and produces less byproduct as a result, a byproduct known as "polution" and sometimes "carbon."

You're not getting my point.

Coal plants filter and increase the efficiency of their burning in 2022 compared to 1922. Same input, different output (improved cleaners, less pollution).
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:10 am

The same waste is there, it's just getting trapped in the filters. The filters are going somewhere. Resources are needed for the filters. You know this because, eventually, filtering becomes cost prohibitive, meaning that the filtres themeselves require more energy input than the entire system outputs.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:33 am

The US energy grid has improved, along with energy creating technologies. Efficiency increases there as well.

It's not the "same output" in terms of pollution, not when that pollution is the very one addressed by political movements.

That is what is meant by "clean energy". The EPA, leftists, liberals, democrats do not care about energy Efficiency, otherwise they would turn gas drilling back on.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:34 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:It's not the "same output" in terms of pollution, not when that pollution is the very one addressed by political movements.


Likely because, as you say before this, the input also is not the same.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The US energy grid has improved, along with energy creating technologies. Efficiency increases there as well.


Greater efficiency means more output for less input.

See how that works?
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:35 am

Of course, "clean coal" is not more efficient than normal coal. It's more expensive, meaning more goes in, and less energy is produced, a slack which is then taken up by whatever other energy sources are available, such as oil or normal coal.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:37 am

Technology to burn the coal and transfer its power, became more Efficient as well, hence why Efficiency is a different measure than Pollution.

Energy industries can become more Efficient, with the same Pollution, or More. I think you overlooked this factor.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:39 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Technology to burn the coal and transfer its power, became more Efficient as well, hence why Efficiency is a different measure than Pollution.


You haven't explained why. You have only further bore out how it is the exact same measure.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:44 am

Technology, more efficient energy is more profitable for the energy industry. A coal power plant can burn the same coal as last century, but hotter, and longer, and with a more efficient energy grid, better materials, etc.

It's the same with combustion engines that produce more horsepower with better engine designs. The input/output and pollution stays the same, while the performance and efficiency increases.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:50 am

Please read what you wrote. Twice.

Urwrongx1000 wrote: A coal power plant can burn the same coal as last century, but hotter, and longer, and with a more efficient energy grid, better materials, etc.


More efficiency means more output for same input. That is literally the definition of it.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:It's the same with combustion engines that produce more horsepower with better engine designs.


Right...

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The input/output and pollution stays the same, while the performance and efficiency increases.


Ok. Listen to yourself for a second.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:while the performance and efficiency increases.


If the performance increases, what that litrally means is that more output is generated with the same or less input. It is literally what it means. It is why they make more money, because3 they put less in and get more out.

Drop Das Kapital. Listen for a second.

Define for me, in simple succinct terms, what efficiency means.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:04 am

Pollution isn't the only output of energy consumption.

The effect of using the energy, is also an output. A better driving experience, a faster drive, a smoother drive, etc.


Technology has improved how energy is transferred and used. Pollution is dampened by cleaners and filters. Pollution is not the only outcome.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:05 am

Ah- Not yet.

Define efficiency first.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:15 am

Yes, Efficiency means same-input, more-output.

I wanted to clarify that pollution is not the only output though. The purpose of using energy, such as heating a home, or powering a vehicle, are also outcomes. These can be improved while the "pollution" stays the same, or lessens, also with technology.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:16 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Yes, Efficiency means same-input, more-output.


Excellent, that is step one. We are moving forward. You have considerably evolved from this position.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The input/output and pollution stays the same, while the performance and efficiency increases.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:17 am

Now, what exactly is pollution, what produces it?
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:22 am

I meant pollution-output, so it's a small clarification.

Pollution is mostly recognized as air contaminates, such as smog, smoke, dark fumes, etc. There is noise pollution as well. Pollution mostly refers to the smog that coal factories produced in the early Industrial Revolution, which China has been dealing with recently. There is also nuclear pollution, toxic waste, which is radiated sludge as the after-affect of burning uranium.

What liberals/leftists/democrats and most people view as "pollution" and cleanliness, is lack of smog in the air, hence why strict policies have been placed on chemicals in gasoline, and air/gas filtration in vehicles. The results of these Environmental policies, in combination with coal plants using filtration, has "cleaned" the air around US cities. However, the terms of pollution and cleanliness and changed. Now, what is meant by "clean", is a clean-conscience, that using "wind and solar" is, somehow, morally superior than coal and gas power, which is highly debatable to say the least.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:24 am

Let's try for a more simple definition, you tell me if it's off.

Pollution is a contaminant byproduct of energy production.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:25 am

Sure
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:27 am

Right.

How about this one.

The contaminants are traces of the input used to generate the output which are not consumed in the process.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby origami » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:29 am

Input being anything and everything used in the process that wasn't already in place before the process was initiated.
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Re: Let's talk Energy

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:57 am

That's somewhat accurate. Contaminants are part of the Inefficiency process. "Pure" fuel is more expensive than "dirty" or "contaminated" fuel.

In a hydroelectric plant, contaminants would be mud, dirt, rocks, etc. clogging up the turbines.
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