Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

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Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Gamer » Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:42 pm

As you well know, in the case of labor, there are two markets: the marketplace of employers choosing their employees, and the marketplace of employees choosing their employers.

It is legal — and perhaps even rational sometimes — for an employer to say “do it my way or I’ll fire you,” as long as the employer’s conditions are legal.

But, on the flip side, in a free market, it’s legal and perhaps rational for employees to say, “do it my/our way or we’ll leave and find another employer, or start our own competing company or co-op.”

As long as such employees aren’t violating laws or non-competes, they are free to do the above.

Employers may retort: “Fine, leave, we’ll find others,” and employers have the right to seek willing replacements, so long as no labor or trade laws are broken.

This is all to say that a free market doesn’t work in one direction, where the employer by default has added leverage. Leverage, in a free market, is earned through legal competition and aided by supply and demand.

Why belabor this point? Because it’s often presumed by employers that they are owed something extra.

It needs to be restated: Employees owe nothing to employers outside of meeting contractual agreements.

Employers must compete for employees, just as employees must compete for employment.

In a free market, both parties come to the negotiation table representing their own interests.

If either party loses this negotiation, there’s no sense in blaming the government.

The market being free simply means competition plays out within the limit of the law.

“Within the limit of the law” may beg the question of whether the laws are tipped in favor of one side or the other and whether that’s fair.

In any case, it wouldn’t change the reality that employees, just like employers, are seeking rational self interest in an established system, playing laws to their advantage, exploiting demand and seeking to maximize their own profit—no different from what many successful capitalists do.

Whether you’d like to see leverage in the hands of employers or employees could be a matter of personal taste; or perhaps comes from seeing data you believe shows evidence that one side having an edge of leverage against the other routinely leads to better outcomes for everyone.

More likely, whether we are employers or employees ourselves adds bias to our attitude. So let’s take attitude out of the equation.

The bottom line: Given our laws, employees can seize more leverage. If and when they do, it’s not suddenly a shift to socialism or communism. It’s more accurately free market capitalism at its finest. After all, free markets are driven by profit motives and self interest. Why would we expect employees to abandon a “shameful and misguided” self-interest while employers get to maintain that same self-interest unapologetically, and even be praised for it? That would be an irrational double standard and inconsistent with free-market ideology.

In the face of employee pushback, an employer is free to voice their opinions, e.g. 1) employers work hard to build and run companies and should thus morally retain absolute power over their creation, and 2) labor/wage laws are antithetical to incentives to innovate and improve society.

Whether there’s any merit to these opinions, they are not free-market based opinions. They are appeals to morality and utility. Not automatically wrong, per se, but irrelevant. Because in a true free market employees have the right to compete against employers for more power/wages.

While labor laws are not entirely consistent with laissez faire, they are — as of now — generally consistent with democracy. Our labor laws haven’t been dictated by authoritarian leadership. Instead, labor laws reflect the will of the people through free and fair elections.

If that argument doesn’t hold sway, consider this one: labor laws reflect the spirit of the constitution regarding general welfare, life, and liberty.

For example, most Americans don’t believe that young children working for peanuts out of desperation is consistent with the constitution. There are many examples where pure laissez faire is unAmerican. Slavery being the most obvious. Corporate lobbies using vast wealth to influence public policies and subvert democracy is laissez faire and yet most consider that unAmerican, too.

Human society is ever-evolving, thus laws around labor must evolve, too, to preserve the spirit of the Constitution. Definitions of general welfare and liberty are not fixed; they must evolve along with our technology and systems.

That’s why I’m pro-union, pro-cooperative, pro democracy, pro UBI pilot programs, and ultimately, pro-Marxism.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Sculptor » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:01 pm

Has anyone noticed that in "A Christmas Carol" Scrooge is able to buy all he needs on Xmas day? I used to think this a plot error what I was a child since no shops were open, except "public houses".

Unions are why we have holidays.
Unions are why we have the weekend.
Unions are why we have sick leave.
Unions are why we have maternity leave.
Unions are why we have employment contracts.
Unions are why we have safe working practices.
Unions are why we have compensation for work injuries.
Unions are why we have work tribunals for unfair dismissals.
Unions are why we have protection for race and creed.

Sadly unions have been destroyed by punitive legislation for decades of right wing so-called neoliberal bullshit Freidman economics.

Enjoy your zero hours, zero holidays, and part time temporary work.

Oh and maybe you think it's great to go shopping on Xmas day.
Oh um.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:18 pm

-
I think unions are a poor remedy for a never ending social predicament.

Gamer wrote:in a free market, it’s legal and perhaps rational for employees to say, “do it my/our way or we’ll leave and find another employer, or start our own competing company or co-op.”

:lol: - ever tried that?

Ever notice how prounioneers think their own opinion is exactly the same as the union leader's opinion?

Unions function by demanding unity through coercion, subterfuge, and fascism of their own members - "Do what we say to protect yourself from evil monsters -- or suffer our wrath!"

It is like saying - "The CCP is merely playing the free market." :-?
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:20 pm

Unions should be illegal, period.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:23 pm

-
I think unions would be fine if - and only if - they had to operate under a power dividing constitution (similar to the US Constitution). Otherwise they are just another socialist/communist mini-regime.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:42 pm

They're mafias, first of all. The most textbook possible case of a racket.

There is a reason the actual mafia found it the perfect vehicle. Still today, wherever there is a union, there is an arm of the local organized crime. This isn't even disputed.

Second of all, these are the things they accomplish:

- Force the competitive workers to pull the weight of the useless bums,

- Raise the cost of labour so that there is a pay ceiling, first, and a much reduced labour pool, second, severe inflation accross the economy, third. The third point is important, because the money extorted from the employers then doesn't even go as far as lesser pay would without unions.

- Retard progress by adding miles of red tape around any enterprise.

- Reduce the overall quality of the work, with teachers being the best possible example.

Third of all, in a "free market," if there were no laws one way or the other, employers have much more muscle and can just eliminate unions in a gang type war. Becase, left without legalized regulation, that is what unions do, and have always done. Gang war tactics. They would lose that war in every case without the state protecting them. So, for humanitarian reasons, best to skip the whole thing all together and make them illegal.

Of course, employers aren't the only ones extorted and coerced. Normal ass people who just want to work and negociate with employers on their own terms, and work whenever the fuck they want under whatever terms they prefer, are coerced by these mafias.

Ask anybody that has ever worked in a unionized industry whether they ever had a say in any of the shit imposed on them. Or, for example, paying union fees.

Your point about why don't disgruntled workers just start their own thing, their own company or coop or whatever stupid shit, is one which passing straight over the heads of dirty communists is proof that they are not only unable to use reason, but uninterested. Whenever they do, it either goes broke or cannot scale, or is just a normal succesful company like any other.

The reason operations by disgruntled workers tend to fail is that the disgruntled workers tend to be the useless pieces of shit. Competitive people tend to just do very well and get promoted and be company men all the way. They thrive under the sophisticated infrastructure that is provided to them. Except where unions exist and no real way exists for them to reap the benefits of being excellent.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:55 pm

Like yes, lol, an enterprise takes much more than people doing menial labour. Complictaed infrastructures are required.

If "capitalists" aren't required and "workers" could fulfill that role just as well if not better, go ahead and do it lol. If you really can do it better, more efficiently and more competently, then you will become very rich. Welcome to the free markets.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:01 pm

What does this Gamer guy know about any of this? He read a book once.

His whole argument is a hypothetical mess that skips over huge swaths of reasoning. A perfect case of A then ? then B.

This is because it was not constructed from reason, from the reality of a situation and the actual elements of it, but from moralism.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:07 pm

Fuck unions.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Sculptor » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:40 pm

origami wrote:Fuck unions.


Have you ever done an honest day's work in your life?
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:37 pm

Lol.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:50 am

I see the pro-dictatorship crowd hates unions..
The only reason they hate unions is Faux news told them
to hate unions.. if Faux news changed policy and suddenly
love unions.. these guys would LOVE unions to death..

And yes, I belong to a union and have for 15 years...
I am quite happy belonging to the union..

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Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:03 am

What lol the weed trafficker's union?

Out of 10 active dictatorships in the world, 9 are unionist communist. Of course, you need to know what is happening in the actual world to know this, not read some college book.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:08 am

Of course, unions are excellent vehicles for communist dictatorships. They already have all the infrastructure to send down orders and enforce policy. Unions are very good at quashing dissent.

Lol I hadn't spent much time thinking on it, but imagine if drug dealers at the bottom of the chain did unionize?

Hahahahahahahahaha.

If any further proof is needed that unions can only prosper with a government that protects them.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:10 am

i think there may actually be a dispensary worker union in colorado. and all the starbucks stores have been unionizing. love it because they're shitting on starbucks who has been shitting on coffee bean farmers and baristas for years and just funneling all the value to stockholders while making it harder for small businesses to succeed. i was briefly in an ironworker union and had a great time and got paid really well. had to wear a flame retardant suit and all this other safety equipment and stand knee deep in all this grease at the bottom of a pipe mill with all these red hot steel pipes rolling on these cooling racks over our heads. our job was to reinforce a collapsing wall that was holding up those racks with the hot pipes on it. real crazy shit. pay was good.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby origami » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:14 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:i think there may actually be a dispensary worker union in colorado.


That's my point dumbass. Unions can only work once the industry comes under the protective arms of government.

Mr Reasonable wrote: love it because they're shitting on starbucks who has been shitting on coffee bean farmers and baristas for years and just funneling all the value to stockholders while making it harder for small businesses to succeed.


I could measure what you know about this with the length of a fart.

Mr Reasonable wrote: i was briefly in an ironworker union and had a great time and got paid really well. had to wear a flame retardant suit and all this other safety equipment and stand knee deep in all this grease at the bottom of a pipe mill with all these red hot steel pipes rolling on these cooling racks over our heads. our job was to reinforce a collapsing wall that was holding up those racks with the hot pipes on it. real crazy shit. pay was good.


there's no real iron work left in the US. some, but it's mainly done in China and shit. Unions killed the industry.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:16 am

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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:19 am

there is definitely a pipe mill in birmingham that makes seamless steel pipe and ships it all over the world and it's like a pit of hell in there. i worked at that fucker. also power plants man, they require ironworkers for maintenace. so the ironworkers are pretty much constantly employed off just that even if there isn't some economic boom of new construction. they're definitely working
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:32 am

i was doing that shit in between semesters in college and man these guys would be welding while standing knee deep in this thick grease and my whole job was to just stand there with a fire extinguisher and put out little fires like when a piece of slag would fly off in the welding process and land in the grease that shit was fucking wild.

then i had to take a slam one day and so i went to this bathroom in the basement that had been there since what must have been the 1800s and there was a copy of a playboy from 1979 in there and on the inside cover of the back page was a pic of a shaved vag and written over the image was this story like "i am not afraid to show myself i will be seen like in the future vaginas will be shaved" and i just remember laughing and being like bro whoever wrote this in 1979 totally called it
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Gamer » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:18 am

origami wrote:What does this Gamer guy know about any of this? He read a book once.


You are a complete fucking moron with a big mouth. Everyone here knows it and so do you.

I’m happy to have a debate but you’re so idiotic you’re not even wrong. If you want to come to this board learn how to think and communicate. If not, get a fucking life.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Gamer » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:18 am

Gamer wrote:
origami wrote:What does this Gamer guy know about any of this? He read a book once.


You are a complete fucking moron with a big mouth. Everyone here knows it and so do you.

I’m happy to have a debate but you’re so idiotic you’re not even wrong. If you want to come to this board, learn how to think and communicate. If not, get a fucking life.

You’re welcome.
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Re: Unions and co-ops are free market at its finest

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:27 am

Be good brothers.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

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