Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:01 pm

As some of you might know, yesterday, the FBI raided
IQ45 home.. with a search warrant from a judge...
Now, I am not that interested in the basics of this aspect of
the case.. However, in the aftermath, the "Trump cult" all
jump out and denounced this raid as "political".. as they are
wonton to do... and here comes my interest.. a congressman
from AR, no surprise there, came out and demanded that we
"destroy the FBI" that congressman was Paul Gosar...

That is my focus today... the understanding of this statement...

"Destroy the FBI" We must first understand the exact nature of
the FBI..... it is a government institution that protects and defends
America and its citizens... Has the FBI been used politically before?
Hell yah, it has.. Recall the FBI and Martin Luther King as an example....
but to demand it be destroyed? Even as a "reformed" anarchist, I
can't see the value of destroying the FBI...I can certainly see it
being "reformed" if needed, but destroyed? no.

And therein one of the fundamental differences between
Liberals and conservatives... if one see's something that is
wrong institutionally, liberals work toward reforming it,
making it better... incremental changes that improve a
situation or an institution.. it isn't about destroying an
institution, radical changes, but modest improvement of
an situation or institution...

One of the bottom lines here becomes this question of
is this use of the FBI, actually an overreach of the government?
NO, an empathic no... based on two reasons, one, no one is above
the law, not even a former president or, or even a current president...

and the second reason flows from the above statement..
the actual value of institutions... why have institutions like
the FBI, or The IRS or the Labor department?
the point of institutions is to engage in the act of
justice/equality.... To be just, is to be equal...the Justice
department is basically the institutional act of being equal..
to ensure that justice/equality is practiced by the institutions,
companies, and its citizens... the act of being equal requires that
all people, companies and institutions are treating people equally...
that a company for example, treats all its employee's, costumers,
and related partners equally, just...
that is the role of the government's institutions like the FBI..
to ensure that everyone is treated justly/equally...

Let us think about taking an institution away..
Let us take the Labor department away, for example...
what rules or laws are then in place to ensure that
people are being treated equally/justly?

Recall your basic Hobbes state of Nature..

"The state of nature was one in which there were no enforceable
criteria of right or wrong. People took for themselves all that they
could, and human life was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short"

take away the institutions of government and what happens?
that we become reduced to living in Hobbes state nature,
where the strong and powerful take from the weak and poor...
In other words, without institutions like the Labor dep or the FBI,
we now live in a state of nature, where there are no rules or laws,
just people just took what they could, no matter the cost to anyone
else... government and its institutions are a means of escaping
Hobbes state of nature...

Every time a conservative call for less government is a call for
a return to Hobbes state of nature... where there are no rules
or laws.. just people engaging in taking what they can..

The gain of wealth comes from the fact that we have
a government that creates laws and rules, that we must follow...
and this creates the stability that allow us to seek what we
desire.. the very benefits of a society/state comes from
their being an entity or entities that practice justice/equality..

Without government or its institutions, we fall into a state of nature,
where life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" and only the
strong and powerful who simply takes whatever they want, can succeed...

to remove, destroy the FBI is to take one step closer to returning
to a primal state of nature.. and no one wins there...

thus the only way to hold, maintain and increase civilization
and its benefits is to have government and its institutions..
government is the only practical means of keeping us out of
existing in Hobbes "state of nature" ..

Conservatives hold and proclaim loudly, that man is corrupt,
existing in sin.... ok, let us take that belief seriously....
how does removing the government and its institutions,
stop people from taking advantage of other people...
taking away the government/institutions acts like the fear of god,

violate the law.. and you will be punished..

either legally, government and its institutions or via
god, heaven and hell...government and religions operate the
same way...to force compliance to certain rules and laws by
means the threat of punishment... legal punishment or
religious punishment...the threat is the same and the punishment
is the same...and the difference between the two lies in the
difference between the secular and the religious... I don't believe
in god, so I hold to the secular, to the state and those who are
religious, hold to the punishment of man via the religious method...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11201
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:07 pm

-
Even further evidence of the extreme corruption of the US FBI and O'Biden crime family.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:52 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:-
Even further evidence of the extreme corruption of the US FBI and O'Biden crime family.


K: and we have a village idiot viewpoint...

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

PK
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11201
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:03 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:-
Even further evidence of the extreme corruption of the US FBI and O'Biden crime family.


K: and we have a village idiot viewpoint...

Kropotkin

And we also have my reply to it. :D
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Sculptor » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:37 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:-
Even further evidence of the extreme corruption of the US FBI and O'Biden crime family.


No one believes that, not even you.

Trump is a crook and a narcisist.
One thing he says is true that the American political system is flawed and corrupt. But Trump is the absolute worst example.
He tried to subvert the democratic process.
Ichthus77 loves himself
Sculptor
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2594
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:52 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Sculptor » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:45 pm

No one is saying exactly what the FBI are looking for but the word seems to be " is thought to be related to his already-proven removal of records from the White House at the end of his administration, but could reasonably be linked to a number of active lawsuits and investigations currently being faced by the 45th president." Guardian.

The BBC has it the IQ45 was stupid enough to remove papers which were sensitive to the security of the USA from the Whitehouse, to his Mar-a-Lago residence.
Trump is, of course milking it as a violent raid; political interference with a potential opponent, but "several boxes were taken away, the source said, adding that no doors were kicked down and the search had concluded by late afternoon.

Some reports suggest the FBI activity - which Mr Trump described as an "unannounced raid" - was connected to an investigation into whether the former president removed classified records and sensitive material from the White House and took them to Mar-a-Lago." BBC
Ichthus77 loves himself
Sculptor
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2594
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:52 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:30 am

obsrvr524 wrote:-
Even further evidence of the extreme corruption of the US FBI and O'Biden crime family.


the fbi director was appointed by trump
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:31 am

fbi seized scott perry's cell phone today as well.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:47 am

with mtg et al calling for defunding the police if this keeps going the way it is the next thing you know the maga gonna be kneeling at football games
Last edited by Mr Reasonable on Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:59 am

I just want you to remember that it was you who normalized political persecution as a legitimate political tool.

Maybe a new McCarthyism is coming. What reason will we have to stop short of that?

Things to consider.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:14 am

this is the bit they're trying to indoctrinate the maga with now. you can break the law, plainly and brazenly and as long as the other party is in power, enforcing the law is "political".

trump appointed the fbi director after he fired comey. a magistrate issued the warrant after deeming there was probable cause. it's public knowledge that he took classified material to his home. it is illegal for him to do that. to not enforce the law because he held office in the past would be political. you don't just get to break the law because you used to be president. this shit isn't about some political philosophy or some disagreement on policy. it's about a plain violation of the law and a potential national security threat. these documents are classified for a reason.

you think he should just be allowed to break the law? is there a way to enforce the law that isn't political? can a republican only be judged by another republican? i really want to know.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:22 am

fox has all their pundits in sync now speculating that the fbi was there to plant evidence lol they are scrambling the shit is falling apart.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 am

I don't know lol I honestly think you guys are shooting yourself in the face.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:12 am

The senate elections were looking shaky, but now I think it's going to be a landslide.

Unless you start throwing senatorial candidates in jail, which you might.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:13 am

we'll see how it goes. you see what happened to the abortion amendment in kansas last week? are you watching the PA race between fetterman and oz?
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:14 am

That's what I'm saying, things were looking iffy for Oz. Now he's virtually guaranteed to take it.

Lol fucking doctor Oz.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:15 am

The odds aren't bad though that they will just literally put Oz in jail.

TV personality like that, I bet the FBI wouldn't have to look too far to find some excuse.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:17 am

This is what all senatorial candidates should be focused on right now.

"Will the government put me in jail?"
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:18 am

"Put me in jail for reigning in out-of-control regulatory bodies?

Put me in jail for ending insane government spending on weird wars?

Put me in jail for letting Americans make money, and get out of this recession?"

yadda yadda so on.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:21 am

origami wrote:That's what I'm saying, things were looking iffy for Oz. Now he's virtually guaranteed to take it.

Lol fucking doctor Oz.



i don't think he has a chance at all. who knows and i could be wrong but i think he'll lose by a wide margin. the dude isn't even from PA and fetterman has been roasting the shit out of him. that fetterman campaign is ruthless and is stalking oz every time he gets any press they're all over it.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:21 am

It does put the congressional hearings they had recently into perspective though. Now if a Republican congress conducts hearings on these matters, nobody will take them seriously. Everybody thinks of congressional hearings as a joke now.

Pretty smart.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:24 am

origami wrote:"Put me in jail for reigning in out-of-control regulatory bodies?

Put me in jail for ending insane government spending on weird wars?

Put me in jail for letting Americans make money, and get out of this recession?"

yadda yadda so on.



i think that only really plays to the small fraction of americans who are still on the "stolen election/deep state" kind of stuff. trump has kind of worn that all out and so much has come out about him that the average voter just isn't going for it anymore. the crazies put him over the top last time, but it was the true swing voters that carried him most of the way. trumpism isn't dead yet, but it's dying and this is what it looks like. regular people just aren't doing all the conspiracy stuff. people like urwrong are relegated to obscure forums and shit to find like minded people.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:25 am

origami wrote:It does put the congressional hearings they had recently into perspective though. Now if a Republican congress conducts hearings on these matters, nobody will take them seriously. Everybody thinks of congressional hearings as a joke now.

Pretty smart.



i mean the 1/6 hearings are mostly republicans. they wouldn't let jim jordan the clown be on the comittee because he's famous for heckling and just acting like a clown so mccarthy started calling it a democratic comittee, but it's really bipartisan. i guess republicans don't feel like they can be represented by other republicans unless they can send their biggest clowns.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:29 am

origami wrote:That's what I'm saying, things were looking iffy for Oz. Now he's virtually guaranteed to take it.

Lol fucking doctor Oz.


i mean i'm not a prosecutor nor an attorney but he votes in foreign elections and has already been caught lying on his financial disclosures about some property he owns, particularly a house that is occupied by turkish nationals that he left off his forms. legal or illegal i dunno, but that stuff doesn't seem fitting for someone who is seeking a seat in the united states senate. i believe he still holds dual citizenship, which is fine, but again, a bit odd for someone who would seek a seat in the united states senate.
pending
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 32427
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Mar-a- Largo raid and its political implications..

Postby origami » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:29 am

Consider, for example, that most Latino voters have gone through this shit in their own home countries. They might have leftist leanings, but they remember all too well what happens when political opponents start getting arrested and shit.

What got Trump over the edge was people tired of getting spit in the face by crooked politicians. Lol how do you think these events fit into that narrative?

You are wrong that this is an electoral ploy. Electoraly this only favours Republicans. This is just an out-and-out attempt to get rid of the opposition by other means. Oldest story in the book.
There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
origami
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Next

Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users