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Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:06 am
by Tab
Hey people: Here's the debate between me and Stoic. It's reasonably short and sweet:

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=178882

Vote for either Stoic or myself as you see fit. Give a few reasons for your vote, even if it's like "My cat liked Stoic's linebreaks".

We'd prefer it if you have at least 100 posts to your name, but to be honest, that requirement will go right out of the window as time goes on and we become increasingly desperate for validation from any source whatsoever.

Vote, tell your friends to vote, stop random people in the street and ask "Tab or Stoic, which one..?" then report their decisions.

Please God vote.

[-o<

[as per usual me and Stoic will bump the living shit out of this thread, until at least 9 votes are in or a week's up, whichever comes first]

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:21 am
by Stoic Guardian
:text-imwithstupid:

:text-bump:

:text-feedback:

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:30 pm
by Tab
:lol:

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:17 pm
by uglypeoplefucking
i thought you were both pretty persuasive - the debate probably should have gone on longer. i'm almost loathe to vote for that reason. but i guess in the end, i may have to go with Tab, primarily because i agree with him that it's much harder to overthrow dictators nowadays, and doing so usually involves the death of lots of people. if nothing else, democracy allows for far more frequent and peaceful transitions of power.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:38 pm
by Stoic Guardian
Did you notice how I said twice something along the lines of "can we make the debate longer"?

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:52 pm
by Tab
Thanks for the vote UPF.

Stoic Guardian wrote:Did you notice how I said twice something along the lines of "can we make the deate longer"?


I did notice that actually. But my attention span isn't what it used to be. Say it well, say it short, is my motto.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:22 pm
by Trajicomic
Nice graphics but no argument Tab, fuck you the other guy wins.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:13 pm
by Tab
Toldja.

Tab: 1
Stoic: 1

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:43 pm
by Tab
So anyway, there were these two guys in a bar

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:23 am
by Tab
one said to the other

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:26 am
by Stoic Guardian
"Pour me a Bourban you thin necked son of a bitch!"

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:36 pm
by Tab
"But I'm not the barman", the man replied.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:31 pm
by Tab
Erm. Bump.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:37 pm
by Tab
Image

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:45 am
by barcelonic
I'm not swayed by graphics but im gonna go with Tab cus i thought there were a few points in Stoic's last post Tab would have leapt on
but kudos both - great debating :)

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:12 am
by Stoic Guardian
:|

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:41 am
by Tab
Tab: 2
Stoic: 1

Lol, the quality of judging is setting new records for ILP. I expect Sam Harris will turn up next and say "tab ur gr8t" then disappear again.

Thanks for the vote B.

Re: Democracy v. Dictatorships

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:58 pm
by Only_Humean
Nice debate.

1) I liked Tab's approach from the process/game theory angle; I think it's the perfect subject to illustrate the concept of efficient & brittle systems vs. inefficient & robust ones. And as economies become larger and more complex, having a one-man bottleneck pushes things more into the disastrously-brittle system end of things.

2) I don't agree that violence is a past-tense response to dictatorship; dictators rely on popular support/consent today. The differences between Egypt and Syria are not in the technological sophistication of the weapons available to the government, but in the willingness of the leadership to continue to kill its own people, the strength of conservative support, the politics of neighbouring countries and covert or overt international pressures and incentives, that sort of thing. All of which are good old-fashioned political considerations going right back to the dawn of States.

3) What is different now is the knowledge and effectiveness of psychological conditioning techniques. Although democracies are as free to use them as dictatorships, as long as they're clever about them.

4) I'm not sure how dictatorships have as much freedom and liberty as democracies, unless the implicit message is that there is no real choice in democracies. Most dictatorships are considerably tetchier about border controls, and you at least lose the freedom to vote.

5) Overall, I found Stoic's arguments to be less focussed. There was often an air of "well, dictatorships aren't always worse than democracies", which isn't so much a merit as a lack of demerit. And many of Tab's points went unaddressed - possibly due to time constraints. Tab writes a lot :P As an example - dictatorships may fall and are replaced faster, but the point had already been made that democracies ensure a pool of people who are familiar with institutional government, which would be lacking in a replacement for a dictatorship.

6) Both sides had spiffy pictures.

Image

On balance, my vote: Tab.

Re: Democracy v. Dictatorships

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:10 pm
by Only_Humean
Late vote, just come in:

250px-Sam_Harris_2.jpg
250px-Sam_Harris_2.jpg (24.62 KiB) Viewed 5050 times

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:57 pm
by Tab
Cheers OH.

Tab: 3
Stoic: 1

Plus a vote from special guest star :bow-yellow: Sam Harris :bow-yellow: . Who'd a thunk it..? Thanks Sam, but since you fall outside of the 100 post minimum requirement, I cannot in all conscience accept your judgement.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:15 am
by PavlovianModel146
I shall vote tomorrow.

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:10 pm
by tentative
Tab has to win the vote, but more because stoic failed to press his case. There are many examples of benevolent dictatorship that weren't mentioned. Both democracy and dictatorship have their strengths and weaknesses.

Tab, your argument boils down to: Quick death = dictatorship
Slow death = democracy

All governmental systems eventually fail because humans refuse to pay attention. The only choice seems to be hung or decapitated -vs- being nibbled to death by rats...

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:22 pm
by Tab
Cheers JT.

Tab 4
Stoic 1

Image

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:25 pm
by Trajicomic
barcelonic doesn't have the 100 post minimum, so his vote doesn't count.

It looks like Tab's friends have come into the thread, voting for him subjectively, not based on any actual content of argument. The votes are based on loyalty and subjective bias, nothing more.

You don't even need to read the arguments of the debate, to know the outcome of this mockery of a "vote". Where is the eye roll smiley?

Re: Vote on Democracy Vs. Dictators

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:27 pm
by Trajicomic
Stoic, let this become a lesson to you, that no matter how well you make a point, or argue, that popularity wins in the end. Get some "friends" to come vote for you, if you want to participate in any "philosophy" here.

Were the arguments even necessary? Should have just skipped the thread, and went straight to voting. The same results would have transpired.