The state of physics is worse than I thought

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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:48 pm

No you asshat, I'm not saying stuff is information. Wha, did you even read the thread?

We are not talking about things that may or may not be important, power, value, information. We are talking about what physicists assume they are essencially looking at when they do mathematics to compute the behavior of the physical universe at a scale so small, the truth is no one can yet know what it is we are looking at. And then the discussion gets a little more subtle than I believe you can follow. Because you don't even understand what it means that physicists are using information as the basic element, you don't get what it applies to, you think it compares to power or value or whatever silly thing. You don't even know why they use information.

When I say power, I thought it was obvious, I was talking about what the physicists get, not what is represented by a 15 dimensional holographic system that (accurately) describes what quantum fields do near black holes.

You said Hawking something or another I forget, but this is the guy who discovered and first computed black holes. Let me show you a picture of empty conjecture or whatever stupid thing you said:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... k=THJrwcHP

You do not grasp even the most basic thing about theoretical physics. You are talking about all these hare brained shit like the value of sex and the intellectual value of "value," I am talking about whether black holes evaporate into a flurry of chaos or a deentropized system like one would think. It takes mathematics that are very advanced, but I don't think that is much use to explain to you. You don't even know what problem it is physicists are trying to solve with the assignment of information as the basic material of the universe, to even have an opinion about it. You have some wack-ass political agenda which may belie a simple inability to understand what these dudes are doing.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:53 pm

Aventador wrote:No you asshat, I'm not saying stuff is information. Wha, did you even read the thread?

We are not talking about things that may or may not be important, power, value, information. We are talking about what physicists assume they are essencially looking at when they do mathematics to compute the behavior of the physical universe at a scale so small, the truth is no one can yet know what it is we are looking at. And then the discussion gets a little more subtle than I believe you can follow. Because you don't even understand what it means that physicists are using information as the basic element, you don't get what it applies to, you think it compares to power or value or whatever silly thing.

Hahaha, you 'asshat', you said that value and information are the same kind of unfalsifiable concept.
This is hilarious.

Like correcting a toddler. Five minutes later he is lecturing you on the very thing you just informed him of.

You don't even know why they use information.

I do though.

When I say power, I thought it was obvious, I was talking about what the physicists get, not what is represented by a 15 dimensional holographic system that (accurately) describes what quantum fields do near black holes.

You havent understood the funny.

You said Hawking something or another I forget, but this is the guy who discovered and first computed black holes. Let me show you a picture of empty conjecture or whatever stupid thing you said:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... k=THJrwcHP

You do not grasp even the most basic thing about theoretical physics. You are talking about all these hare brained shit like the value of sex and the intellectual value of "value," I am talking about whether black holes evaporate into a flurry of chaos or a deentropized system like one would think. It takes mathematics that are very advanced, but I don't think that is much use to explain to you. You don't even know what problem it is physicists are trying to solve with the assignment of information as the basic material of the universe, to even have an opinion about it. You have some wack-ass political agenda which may belie a simple inability to understand what these dudes are doing.

lol
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:02 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Hahaha, you 'asshat', you said that value and information are the same kind of unfalsifiable concept.


Correct. They are unfalsifiable as conjectures for the physical constitution of material existence. They are products of the brain, they are thoughts, they are not and cannot be stuff. this whole thread is about that, which like, you either can't read or can't comprehend.

However, information is computable, specifically, regarding the dead ends and conflicts the different otherwise mathematically pristine theories explaining physical behavior present in regards to eachother. It solves that problem, and all those equations can now be solved. This is the part I suspect may be too subtle for you to understand. It's also what this whole thread is about, give the old noggin a try maybe I don't know. The question is not whether the assumption solves basically every mayor problem physics has had for the last 50 or so years, which themselves were problems generated by the problems generated by the original quantum mechanics, which if you read bohr or any of those guys they are all basically saying "wtf this shit is full of problems, talking to you future generations." Because it does solve them. In so doing, unleashing an unprecedented wave of advance and discovery. This is the part I am not sure you can understand. The question is whether it is philosophically sound, which it is self-evidently not, and once all those equations are solved and the relevant discoveries made, they will either drop the concept or begin to go down a deep and pointless hole. But you can't opine on whether it is sound or not, because you don't even begin to understand what it solves in the first place, why the problem arises and the solution suggested. You out here talking about gender studies or some shit.

Fixed Cross wrote:I do though.


Nah, you don't.

Fixed Cross wrote:You havent understood the funny.


Yeah, I get it, you think because I use power as a standard for what humans seek it means I should also think it's what quantum fields describe? some shit? OK no I don't get it. You got some problems.

Fixed Cross wrote:lol


I am overwhlemed by the intellectual depth. Clearly, you know your shit.

Talk some shit about Hawkins, we want more lols.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:18 pm

Aventador wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Hahaha, you 'asshat', you said that value and information are the same kind of unfalsifiable concept.


Correct. They are unfalsifiable as conjectures for the physical constitution of material existence. They are products of the brain, they are thoughts, they are not and cannot be stuff. this whole thread is about that, which like, you either can't read or can't comprehend.

This such ultimate beginner level I dont even know where to start. Honestly.
You can not think anything and not have it be your mind. I think youre the only one on this forum who didn't know that yet.

However, information is computable,

Only by treating it as value, asshat.

Do you not know that computation requires the input of values?

specifically, regarding the dead ends and conflicts the different otherwise mathematically pristine theories explaining physical behavior present in regards to eachother. It solves that problem, and all those equations can now be solved. This is the part I suspect may be too subtle for you to understand. It's also what this whole thread is about, give the old noggin a try maybe I don't know. The question is not whether the assumption solves basically every mayor problem physics has had for the last 50 or so years, which themselves were problems generated by the problems generated by the original quantum mechanics, which if you read bohr or any of those guys they are all basically saying "wtf this shit is full of problems, talking to you future generations."

Youre saying precisely nothing here besides repeating one thing I already said. And it is I who has resolved the problem detected by Bohr as very elegantly I united QM and Relativity.
Not that you would even have the impulse to try to understand; you just like name dropping.

Because it does solve them. In so doing, unleashing an unprecedented wave of advance and discovery. This is the part I am not sure you can understand. The question is whether it is philosophically sound, which it is self-evidently not, and once all those equations are solved and the relevant discoveries made, they will either drop the concept or begin to go down a deep and pointless hole. But you can't opine on whether it is sound or not, because you don't even begin to understand what it solves in the first place, why the problem arises and the solution suggested. You out here talking about gender studies or some shit.

I dont opine, little buddy

Fixed Cross wrote:lol


I am overwhlemed by the intellectual depth. Clearly, you know your shit.

Talk some shit about Hawkins, we want more lols.

Nono, you just keep on namedropping. Its very impressive.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:40 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:You can not think anything and not have it be your mind.


Wow. Brilliant.

Fixed Cross wrote:Only by treating it as value, asshat.


The information has values, but, I mean first, this thing you said would be a roundabout way of agreeing with the physicists that it in fact is information, they are just not accurate enough. Second, I mean fuck it, yeah, if you really wanted to you could substitute one for the other to have a different unfalsifiable concept that temporarily solves a superficial problem. But no, not really. Information is static, it only changes when computed with other information. The physicist asks: "what happens to this information when it goes into the black hole (which existence and discoverer our esteemed guest has yet to confirm or deny)." X information went in. so what happens to it? Value is more of a characteristic, of a thing, this thing has value X. But information can be an actual thing. "It weighs X, has X spin, X temperature," whatever. The Xs can be values, but the whole thing together is a discreet unit of information.

Anyway, this seems pointless to point out to you, becausee your ocntention is not that value solves the computing problem that information solves, but that it constitutes the basic material of existence, which is equally ridiculous as saying infromation is, with the disadvantage of also not being mathematically useful at this level of theoretical physics.

You, like, disagree about how many angels fit on the tip of the needle, I am unbothered.

Fixed Cross wrote:Youre saying precisely nothing here besides repeating one thing I already said. And it is I who has resolved the problem detected by Bohr as very elegantly I united QM and Relativity.
Not that you would even have the impulse to try to understand; you just like name dropping.


Astounding. This theory promises to revolutionize physics. I am impressed.

Fixed Cross wrote:I dont opine, little buddy


Well, not very competently anyhow.

Fixed Cross wrote:Nono, you just keep on namedropping. Its very impressive.


All you read in this whole thread is the name Hawking/s? Again...
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:44 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:You can not think anything and not have it be your mind.


OK I had read this as 'not have it be in your mind." The situation is even more tedious and meaningless than I thought. Your thought "is" your mind? Very budistic, very deep. Absolutely irrelevant and inconsequencial to whether a concept that applies to what the mind does, information, value, can apply to stuff that exists outside of it, stuff, what you touch.

The answer is: only if you are an idiot.

Or a physicist needing to cut corners.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:47 pm

Yeah, Ive reduced you to a pool of burping blubber.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:48 pm

I'll run it down for you, but you seem the type to just go on another pseudophsycoanalytic rampage of rage anyway, but I'll run it down for you:

-hey a molecule

-hey an atom

-hey an electron

-hey a quantum field

-ok, so far all stuff, can be falsified, can be split, exists outside of the imagination-

-hey a information

an information?

Can you split an information? Can you amplify the scope? No, it's just an information, conceived in the mind. It is not an actual thing you can measure, it is just a thought about a thing.

-hey a value

Can you split an value? Can you amplify the scope? No, it's just an value, conceived in the mind. It is not an actual thing you can measure, it is just a thought about a thing.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:56 pm

Also, because I am not sure you fully understand the concept, here is what falsifiability means and how it applies:

a quantum field. It is this and if you measure it does this.

OK if you measure it and it doesnt, it is false, it has been falsifizzizized.

an information.

Oh wait, you can't measure an information. an information is itself a measure. There is no way to falsify it, no matter what you are looking at, you can call it information and it says nothing about the actual thing, you can't split "information" it is not stuff. It is a thought.

Value, I mean, I hope you get it. It's the same thing. "Oh no it turned out to behave like this and do this." "Oh no well it's still value." "Well ok, I can't falsify that. it's pretty meaningless."

The reason the information paradigm works is that it is being applied to a bunch of theories that did deal with falsifiable claims on what stuff is. Strings, quantum fields, particles, etc. And the math for each was refined and made to work extremely well, but not in every circumstance. Only in some circumstances. But, conveniently, each in the circumstances that the other didn't cover. So they just blanketed it all as information so that the numbers, which do add up, don't run into "but ONLY if it is a string, but ONLY if space actually exists," etc. The same reason it works for this is the reason that once all those kinks are worked out, science will die becaue no new work is being done on finding what is there, which ostensibly could then give a bunch of conflicting theories tha then could all be uniformized as information.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:58 pm

I hope you study this closely and meditate on it.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:32 pm

Funny how a person can come in kissing ass and leave fuming.

Don't hate me, brotherman, hate the science.

The island rule has a simple interpretation within certain “doubly-holographic” models in [ 1, 2 , 66 , 68 ]. Of course, the physics can be described with the usual bulk and boundary perspectives of a holographic system. In this case, the boundary perspective consists of a d-dimensional CFT coupled to a codimension-one conformal defect, and the bulk perspective then becomes (d+1)-dimensional gravity on an asymptotically AdS spacetime containing a codimension-one brane, which is anchored at the conformal defect on the asymptotic boundary. This brane back reacts on the bulk spacetime and in an appropriate parameter regime, a third perspective emerges through the Randall-Sundrum mechanism [113–115]. In this brane perspective, the brane supports a theory of d-dimensional gravity coupled to (two copies of) the holographic CFT, and is connected to the CFT on the asymptotic boundary (which becomes the bath) at the position of the defect. We refer the interested reader to [1, 2 ] for further details on these three perspectives


Essencially, they describe in this paragraph how they couple together theories from string theory, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, and also micro and macro scopes of quantum fields and gravity, using math that relies on this information paradigm to fuse them al together irespective of what contentions they have about the fundamental nature of stuff. What they realized is that, despite what the contentions might be, the math works. It accurately predicts. i don't know what all of it means, a lot of them are actually just competing string theory and M theory interpretations. The paragraph I quoted previously is more benign, and more accesible if you understand basic concepts of quantum mechanics, thermodynamics and black holes. This stuff is impenetrable unless you actually track down all of the different papers that lay out all of those different theories, but it shows the sheer amount of work and calculation that is put into these new theories. And also, the simple mass of them which, by the way, without the information paradigm are irreconcilably conflicting, that are being finally and coherently bound together.

The proof of its power is essencially that a problem posed by Hawking several decades ago, which scientists had all that time to break, had remained unbroken. Each of the different theories quoted in this paragraph gave it their shot, but they failed in computing some value for gravity or predicting some aspect of entanglement or the behavior of the system on a massive scale where gravity is patent. So nothing work. Decades, decades went by when people could not make sense of Hawking radiation, the quantum scale stuff that escapes a black hole and eventually causes the complete evaporation of the black hole. They are now breaking it, understanding how it works, predicting how it will work in ways that contradict none of the theories that have been established and proven to work in the limited fields they approach. Newton, Susskind, Einstein, Hawking, and all the hundreds of anonimous researchers and mathematicians are respected, accounted for.

The claims of this paper, and these new theories in general, go beyond the dynamics of black holes. They apply to all matter, all systems. Black hole or not, you can now determine information about a quantum island which before you could not by calculating variables from scales that used to be methematically incompatible. Yes, that is real power. The more you can predict, the more you can know about what an actual factual tiny piece of physical existence, the more power you obviously have.

I think they actually do know that the fundamental assumptions they are making are not strictly 100% on the up and up. More than once they say some paraphrase of "for the sake of argument," or "to facilitate understanding." Because the level they are working on is so small, that mostly information and abstract concepts are what can apply to them. You can't see it, what it's there. If you can't see it you can't actually know. So why make it up? Better to use useful images that are mathematically computable and actually predict the outcome based on the very limited measures we can make of dynamics on that scale. "Imagine a bath." They are not saying there is an actual bath, an actual space.They are conjecturing abstractly a transformation process occuring at that scale, the specific concrete shape of which cannot be ascertained with modern instruments, that mathematically computably explains what the result ends up being. If you use that eequation, every time, you will be able to predict what measurement your instrument will pick up.

That's part of the reason for this thread. I mean the contention is pretty catastrophic, if they actually believe it. And they say they actually believe it. But, do they actually believe it...? You know how theoretical physicists are. Like Einstein with his "if you get on a ship and approach the speed of light," that's not possible, the ship cannot actually exist that he describes. But he says it with a straight face, as if it were as real as a car. So I don't know. I just don't know to what extent they actually buy it. I think their greed for results and their satisfaction at seeing them is just a much ehavier psychological component than worrying about stupid shit like "are they right?" It's magic.

But I don't really know.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:43 pm

By the way, I kid you not, the title of the paper is:

Quantum extremal islands made easy
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:30 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Yeah, Ive reduced you to a pool of burping blubber.

To quote Mr Trump -
    "Not even close - not even close"
    "They just don't get it - do they."
:lol:
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:21 pm

One can always count on you to produce cute emoticons. This is why I still think you are James; your idiosyncrasies are identical.

For the OP;
I tend to answer illiteracy and intellectual laziness with contempt, especially concerning those who are possibly capable of more.
What we see, in any case, is that what scientists call information must be rather interpreted as value;

in order for a hypothesized bit of information to be 'processed into being' (in order for it to actually demonstrably, provably, exist) it must be processed into particular terms. Meaning; it must work as a value, be capable of entering a system and thereby altering that system; this is the meaning of value.

Information qua being is always value. You may see this as actionable information. Any non-actionable information remains hypothetical. Mere information doesn't amount to existence.

This fact, that every smallest piece of existence is value, rather than mere information, shows itself in the effort that is required to 'process' this 'information'; the very forces driving our universe and of our own behavior; we do not act on information unless it is a value; we dont even recognize a thing as information unless it is of value.
Thus, my doctrine is both epistemology and ontology, transcending the difference;

What can be said to exist is valuing (all value is, as follows from the above, also a valuing; all processed being is also processor) ; if we would translate it into Jamesean we get, all being is both affecting and being affected (an asymmetrical reciprocity lacking in RM) but even such refined RM is entirely lacking in depth, dimensionality, actionability; only the concept value indicates the specific dynamic of the nature of all interaction, of force, of influence.

This won't be understood for some decades, most likely, as is the fate of all world shaping concepts. But that doesnt mean I will give people an excuse for not being subtle enough to understand it. This crudeness is at once the impotence of our culture; an immersion into the most subtle analysis our species has produced (save perhaps Japanese ethics) is required to comprehend the nuances of vo; Heidegger's study of Nietzsche's conception of truth is recommended reading for those who would approach my doctrine.

For those that do not, it's happy hunting in the sewers.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:47 am

I hesitate to approach such a volatile temperament,

but you still have not addressed the issues the information paradigm applies to, why value poses the same problem as information without offering the same usefulness, or that you really understand modern theoretical physics and which problems the information paradigm is designed to address, or that you understand what black holes are and who discovered them.

For these reasons, your whole messianic rhetoric is completely whack.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:02 am

Aventador wrote:I hesitate to approach such a volatile temperament,

but you still have not addressed the issues the information paradigm applies to, why value poses the same problem as information without offering the same usefulness, or that you really understand modern theoretical physics and which problems the information paradigm is designed to address, or that you understand what black holes are and who discovered them.

For these reasons, your whole messianic rhetoric is completely whack.


Actually it was Sidis who discovered black holes.

Yeah, Magnus projects a bit.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:07 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:-
The Information Ontology.

I think Aventador has been right on track throughout this thread.

What is wrong with “The Information Ontology,” not enough bricks and mortar? What are the bricks and mortar of a hologram, a conscious thought? Science’s perspective and approach is wrong. Would “humans” be able to handle the truth if we are only projecting within a projection? Nothing’s truly physical as we currently understand it.

Define "physical". I don't mean that in a pedantic way. I mean that if you are going to say "no thing is physical" we need to know what a "thing" is and why it isn't physical. What does it mean to be "physical"?

Physical=things perceived by the senses, rather than the mind. But as I venture forward down the path of everything is only actually of the mind, then I’m on a slippery slope, right?
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:58 am

Ecmandu wrote:Actually it was Sidis who discovered black holes.


Yeah, but I mean, come on.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:09 am

WendyDarling wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:Define "physical". I don't mean that in a pedantic way. I mean that if you are going to say "no thing is physical" we need to know what a "thing" is and why it isn't physical. What does it mean to be "physical"?

Physical=things perceived by the senses, rather than the mind.

So (not really a definition but - ) you are saying that physical things are perceived by the senses - which are themselves physical. That is similar to James' affectance concept of existence - "it only physically exists if it affects something else that physically exists". But then he adds that there are "realms of existence" and each realm only affects what is within that realm - they are separate (specifically he points out the physical and the divine or conceptual).

WendyDarling wrote: But as I venture forward down the path of everything is only actually of the mind, then I’m on a slippery slope, right?

No. You have already fallen off the edge. :D
You already stated that the senses are only physical (assuming I understood you correctly).
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:26 am

obsrvr524 wrote:But then he adds that there are "realms of existence" and each realm only affects what is within that realm - they are separate (specifically he points out the physical and the divine or conceptual).



This directly relates to that wonderful thread being had by Ierrellus on evolution.

When you say they are separate, are they also independent?
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:43 am

Aventador wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:But then he adds that there are "realms of existence" and each realm only affects what is within that realm - they are separate (specifically he points out the physical and the divine or conceptual).



This directly relates to that wonderful thread being had by Ierrellus on evolution.

When you say they are separate, are they also independent?

I think that is what he meant by "separate" - physical things cannot change (or have affect on) conceptual things (the concepts themselves - not the people thinking about them). A square is always a square regardless of what anyone thinks and regardless of anything that happens in the physical universe (also why God is said to be "outside time").

Likewise concepts cannot have affect on physical things - although people thinking about those concepts can and does affect physical things. That is the distinction between the mortal and the divine and why gods can't just go change the world without people being involved - because gods and angels are concepts and principles.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:18 am

My question is whether these conjectured realms are independent?

In other words, evidently a thought about stuff can be right or wrong, and the stuff the thought is about is not the thought nor is the thought had about the stuff the stuff that is thought about.

But.

Do thought and matter exist in independent realms according to your idea?

Which is the same as to ask:

Is there no way in which then one realm is conceived to affect the other?
Last edited by Aventador on Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:23 am

Aventador wrote:My question is whether these conjectured realms are independent?

In other words, evidently a thought about stuff can be right or wrong, and the stuff the thought is about is not the thought nor is the thought had about the stuff the stuff that is thought about.

But.

Do thought and matter exist in independent realms according to your idea?

You have me confused. You seem to explain independence correctly pertaining to thought about stuff - and I thought I explained what separate and/or independent meant - but you are still asking - so I guess I don't understand what you are asking.

Can you either define or give an example of "independent" that might clear up this issue?
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              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:25 am

I talked about a specific thought about a specific stuff. But my question is about stuff and thought generally. Do they exist in independent realms?
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:45 am

Aventador wrote:I talked about a specific thought about a specific stuff. But my question is about stuff and thought generally. Do they exist in independent realms?

Again I thought I answered that - but obviously you do not - so you are using the word "independent" in a way I don't understand. We seem to have a communication problem. :-?

The thinking process is independent of the subject of thought - such as a square - the process of thinking about a square is independent of the square itself. And obviously what a square is - is independent of how anyone thinks about it.

To me that is both separation and independence.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3126
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

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