Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:24 am

Hey--how do they know what a wave does when not being observed if they're not observing it?
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby bonehound » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:47 am

Ichthus If you want a good set of lessons on quantum mechanics in my opinion you can do no better than

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 9CB1D13841

and

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 1B8B27EB67
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:32 am

There's math symbols on the white board. Does he answer any of my questions... will I be able to understand it when he says it? I googled entanglement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement and that was interesting... the parts I read, anyway. My problem is, despite the math, the discussion doesn't seem to be "settled" (or to answer my questions in any obvious way)... so... why learn the math if it is potentially incorrect? (and doesn't even answer my questions?)--THAT would be a TOTAL waste of time.

bonehound... if he doesn't answer my questions, please tell me. If you are aware of some answers, please inform me. Here's the new questions again:

Is there a copy of all the matter/energy in the universe in every moment -- is that how it is possible to travel back/forward to the matter/energy that is in the past/future?

Otherwise, if once "now" passes, its matter/energy moves into the next moment, then the past no longer exists, and the future does not exist (physically) until it is filled with matter/energy.

That, or the matter/energy in now is destroyed and replaced with a new copy (its parts slightly arranged differently) the next moment and the past/future are still empty ... but who does the destroying/creating?

There is also a scenario that would end up with a build-up of matter, but I forgot what I was thinking about that. I think it was the idea that a new set of matter/energy is created for each new now, and the old matter from the old nows doesn't move into the past, but sort of... accumulates (we don't observe this, right?). I mean -- if you add up all matter/energy in each moment, is it more than the sum of the matter/energy in now? If not -- doesn't that mean the past/future is empty?

Also -- what is the 'size' of a moment in time? I know there are moments smaller than a second (a milisecond) and there must be moments smaller than that -- what is the smallest moment (what is a unit of "now"?)?
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby capslockf9 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:43 am

"I" is not you per se ; but the

consciousness that works through

sentient beings. Consciousness (not

the individuall) acts on the quantum

waves of possibilities to give rise to the

physical universe. Without

consciousness matter would not

manifest. Matter appears and then

dissolves back into the empty. When

the bus appears so those its

entourage.


"University of London physicist David

Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's

findings imply that objective reality

does not exist, that despite its apparent

solidity the universe is at heart a

phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly

detailed hologram." - The Universe as

a Hologram
by Michael Talbot
Does Objective Reality Exist, or is the

Universe a Phantasm?
"All things are preceded by the mind, led by the mind, created by the mind." - Dhammapada
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:24 am

caps--that "consciousness" you speak of seems to be God, and if by "objective" you mean "existing apart from God's sustaining of it" -- then I agree with you (although--it is "real"... though... the mere shadow of what is to come). I wouldn't distinguish between the waves and the physical universe. The consciousness (God) sustains the waves/physical universe, and the passengers of the bus--and He and their consciousnesses give rise to what they do with/in their part (He is not limited to a 'part') of the waves/physical universe. You still have not answered my questions.

In a nutshell--A) Does God sustain only the matter/energy in "now" and leave the past/future empty of matter/energy (though every moment is known to Him) [and does that mean a) the matter/energy is carried over into each new now rather than being destroyed so that it is not necessary to create a whole new set for each new now, or does it mean he b) destroys the old matter/energy of the past to prevent build-up, and creates a whole new set for each new moment [if you were comparing all moments as if they were all "nows" (filled with matter/energy) you wouldn't be able to tell 'a' and 'b' apart], or does it mean c) the old matter/energy is not destroyed and carries over into every now, but he does create a whole new set for each new moment, and so the sum of matter/energy is always increasing twofold with every passing moment, which seems frivolous? 'a' seems more... conservative] -- or B) is there a copy of all that matter/energy (though arranged differently) in every single moment, not just in "now" (would that mean the sum of all the matter/energy in every single moment is more than the sum of all the matter/energy in "now"? 'A' seems more conservative...)?

And what is a unit of now--what is the smallest slice of time?

Oh yeah... I forgot it all started when you said, "In order to manifest that bus you had to create all fifteen billion years it took it to get there." If "you" was a general "you" and you (caps) actually meant God--then you could be saying that it was complete before it started (which is what I agree with), or you are implying some sort of backward-causality when you say you have to create what has already passed (which, from God's perspective, is sort of the situation, since He knows the whole story from cover-to-cover... but it isn't 'really' "backward" causality, since He doesn't really have to go back... He's already there... I am reading C.S. Lewis' "Miracles" and he speaks of this as every moment being complete before it all began, as well as God's creativity being active in every moment)... I just wonder... is every moment filled with matter/energy/creativity--or just "now" (though all other moments are known to Him)? It seems they are filled, no? Otherwise... "He doesn't have to go back... He is already there" makes absolutely no sense, 'cause if they aren't filled, there's no "there" (if it's only His idea and not yet filled) (maybe "there" would mean the same as when we say "go there in your mind" -- you don't actually go anywhere... you just imagine... and so the past/future would be God's imagination, and "now" would be His imagination realized with matter/energy). I just want to know if there're scientific observations that can tell us whether the past/future are filled with matter/energy--or only "now"--and what it says about the sum-total of all moments of matter/energy (is it equal to the sum of the matter/energy in any given "now"?).
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby capslockf9 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:58 pm

It is our own cognitive ability and process that contribute to our percieved world and how we experience it. We erroneously speculate about what is real.

There is no such thing as time.
"All things are preceded by the mind, led by the mind, created by the mind." - Dhammapada
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby bonehound » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:32 am

Icthus, I don't think I can answer your questions at least not in a scientific way, I don't know if any metaphysical questions can be settled by physics at all. Maybe answers can be suggested and some ruled out as nonsense but physics works by taking time and space as sort of givens. Like you take the ticks on clocks and match them to positions of particles and try to write down equations of motion. Then you try to parley those equations into something more general and coherent.

But that is neither here nor there. The main reason I provided those links was just in case you wanted to get as much quantum mechanics under your belt as you can before trying to formulate an answer. Maybe you can come up with something truly novel in that domain, but to get it into a publishable and defensible form you will have to have a way better than average understanding of current scientific thinking. I don't mean that as a slight at all, it is just if you are going to go way beyond simply setting up experiments and solving equations, and actually say something new and profound, you have to understand the fundamentals and all their subtleties very well.

I hope you do not find the lectures I provided links to to be a waste of time. They are of a very good quality and have clarified some things I didn't know before. Learning theoretical and mathematical physics can be a challenging intellectual endeavor, but it can also be extremely rewarding. Just think about it, few people know much about the atom, now if you can set up wave equations and calculate probabilities you got them beat already. If you can think deeply about all that and even find some nonsense in it then you have got it made.
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:34 am

Capslock, do you own a clock?

bonehound--Publish? I just want to know what the eggheads have to say about this.

So what you're telling me is... there's nothing, absolutely nothing (that you're aware of), that I can read about this? Man. That totally bites. If I really want to know more about this, I have to do the hard work required. I'm a product of the fast-food culture... this is not likely something I'll be motivated to dive into any time soon, and that's the sad truth. I'll just wait a while and eventually some eggheads will publish something and I can benefit from all the hard work they did instead of me. It'll probably take me longer to do all that hard work, anyway, since I don't have copious amounts of time (though capslock would deny that even has any meaning) (and math doesn't just "come" to me). Eh, I look forward to my mind being blown in the hereafter.

Thanks, anyways.
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby capslockf9 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:26 pm

Ichthus wrote:"... I'll just wait a while and eventually some eggheads will publish something and I can benefit from all the hard work they did instead of me..."


Please see: http://freedocumentaries.net/media/123/ ... Principle/

Yes I own a clock. That thing measures " perceived " movement not actual time.
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby Ichthus77 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:39 pm

Yes, movement... through time. Did you say "perceived" because you don't think anything "actually" moves (changes) from an eternal perspective (it is complete from beginning to end)?

Maybe I'll check out the links you guys posted ... maybe I'll understand at least some of it ... but it will have to wait for a day when I have more time (it must be really nice to be God, with limitless time...). I appreciate it.

If I have anything more to say on this, it will be said here:
http://jesuschristsonofgodsavior.blogspot.com/2008/01/astrophysics-question-for-fun-time.html

Thanks again.
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby capslockf9 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:08 am

Ichthus wrote:Yes, movement... through time. .



Zeno's dilema with the arrow arose from the same misconception.
He asked " How can an arrow be at two or more places at once". He posited that time could be divide into it's most smallest. "The arrow which is moving forward is at every present moment in a space equal to itself, accordingly it is in a space equal to itself in all time; but that which is in a space equal to itself in the present moment is not in motion. Accordingly it is in a state of rest, since it is not moved in the present moment, and that which is not moving is at rest, since everything is either in motion or at rest. So the arrow which is moving forward is at rest while it is moving forward, in every moment of its motion."

Zeno could not have know that the phenomena occurs with matter. Matter flits in and out from our percieved universe in a fashion of still pictures from a movie.
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Re: Question for Astrono-geeks (time; matter/energy)

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:46 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:caps--that "consciousness" you speak of seems to be God, and if by "objective" you mean "existing apart from God's sustaining of it" -- then I agree with you (although--it is "real"... though... the mere shadow of what is to come). I wouldn't distinguish between the waves and the physical universe. The consciousness (God) sustains the waves/physical universe, and the passengers of the bus--and He and their consciousnesses give rise to what they do with/in their part (He is not limited to a 'part') of the waves/physical universe. You still have not answered my questions.

In a nutshell--A) Does God sustain only the matter/energy in "now" and leave the past/future empty of matter/energy (though every moment is known to Him) [and does that mean a) the matter/energy is carried over into each new now rather than being destroyed so that it is not necessary to create a whole new set for each new now, or does it mean he b) destroys the old matter/energy of the past to prevent build-up, and creates a whole new set for each new moment [if you were comparing all moments as if they were all "nows" (filled with matter/energy) you wouldn't be able to tell 'a' and 'b' apart], or does it mean c) the old matter/energy is not destroyed and carries over into every now, but he does create a whole new set for each new moment, and so the sum of matter/energy is always increasing twofold with every passing moment, which seems frivolous? 'a' seems more... conservative] -- or B) is there a copy of all that matter/energy (though arranged differently) in every single moment, not just in "now" (would that mean the sum of all the matter/energy in every single moment is more than the sum of all the matter/energy in "now"? 'A' seems more conservative...)?

And what is a unit of now--what is the smallest slice of time?

Oh yeah... I forgot it all started when you said, "In order to manifest that bus you had to create all fifteen billion years it took it to get there." If "you" was a general "you" and you (caps) actually meant God--then you could be saying that it was complete before it started (which is what I agree with), or you are implying some sort of backward-causality when you say you have to create what has already passed (which, from God's perspective, is sort of the situation, since He knows the whole story from cover-to-cover... but it isn't 'really' "backward" causality, since He doesn't really have to go back... He's already there... I am reading C.S. Lewis' "Miracles" and he speaks of this as every moment being complete before it all began, as well as God's creativity being active in every moment)... I just wonder... is every moment filled with matter/energy/creativity--or just "now" (though all other moments are known to Him)? It seems they are filled, no? Otherwise... "He doesn't have to go back... He is already there" makes absolutely no sense, 'cause if they aren't filled, there's no "there" (if it's only His idea and not yet filled) (maybe "there" would mean the same as when we say "go there in your mind" -- you don't actually go anywhere... you just imagine... and so the past/future would be God's imagination, and "now" would be His imagination realized with matter/energy). I just want to know if there're scientific observations that can tell us whether the past/future are filled with matter/energy--or only "now"--and what it says about the sum-total of all moments of matter/energy (is it equal to the sum of the matter/energy in any given "now"?).


Interesting to think about in light of reading Kant & Hegel.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

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