Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:16 pm

"But what is clearly not obvious to you is the extent to which how, in accepting this, you are agreeing that had your life been different you might well be here making Flannel Jesus's points instead. And that should you encounter new experiences you might well be in here arguing my points instead."


Flannel Jesus wrote:I might be missing some context here, but like Maia, I don't really get why you keep bringing this up. This is generally true across the board: anybody, whoever they are, whatever they believe, is likely to accept this general premise.


Okay, imagine a context in which you are a fascist or a Communist or an anarchist...or any of the many "ists" that one can be all up and down the moral/political/ideological/deontological spectrum.

Now think about it.

You are a particular "ist" because you genuinely believe that being one reflects the most rational and virtuous manner in which to answer the question that is of most importance to me philosophically: "how ought one to live ethically in a world bursting at the seams with both conflicting goods and contingency, chance and change."

On the other hand, you think yourself into believing that the main reason you are this "ist" and not another "ist" is because, given the particular historical and cultural and experiential context into which you are adventitiously "thrown" at birth, coupled with your own unque trajectory of personal experiences, your lived life merely predisposed you to being this "ist" instead of that "ist".

Again, given the manner in which I intertwine theory and practice here re the OP on these threads:
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

Maia is a Pagan but might not have been. Maia is a Pagan now but might not be. How hard is it to grasp the profound implications of that for any of our current identities?

Instead, in a philosophy forum, using the tools at our disposal, what makes the most sense to me is in owning up to that. And then asking yourself, "okay, what then is the most rational and virtuous 'ist' to be". Can, using the the tools of philosophy, ethics, political science etc., this even be determined?

Here I'm "fractured and fragmented" for all the reasons I have noted. So, how, given what Maia does accept about my own frame of mind above, is she not?

That in my view is what she studiously avoids. And her views on magic and electro-magnetism are just part and parcel of a "spiritual self" that makes no sense to me. How can "certain places on the earth" be "magical, emanating a numinous, tangible feeling of power" allowing her to become a "moral person" when she shares with me in turn the belief that nature itself is amoral and lacking in any essential meaning and purpose?

How do her rituals bring this morality about when she also acknowledges that other Pagans on their own personal paths can come to completely conflicting moral and political agendas? All of which are permitted and yet within the community itself all value judgments engendering all manner of conflicting behaviors clearly cannot be tolerated.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:58 pm

pood wrote:Maia, maybe you could clarify. When you speak of magic, do you mean something that is somehow supernatural, or occult, or something of that nature? Because electromagnetism is fully naturalistic and very well explained,

If you mean magic in the sense of the supernatural, I don’t share that view, but I don’t think it can be totally dismissed either. I just think that there are wide areas of reality that are entirely, or mostly, foreclosed to us, because of the limits of our particular nature as evolved beings. Sometimes, though, we may get a glimpse of those other realms, and we chalk it up to magic, the occult or supernaturalism. I would chalk it up to naturalism that we may not have full access to.


I would say that magic is not supernatural, and can be explained in physical terms. This includes all areas that are considered to be occult.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:11 am

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote: As I've said many, many times, the fact that if my life had been different I may well have ended up with different opinions is true but obvious. My life is the life I've led. It might not have been, but it is.


But what is clearly not obvious to you is the extent to which how, in accepting this, you are agreeing that had your life been different you might well be here making Flannel Jesus's points instead. And that should you encounter new experiences you might well be in here arguing my points instead.

Again, the existential nature of human identity rooted subjectively in dasein rather than in one's capacity to become a "moral person" intertwined in an amoral nature lacking in both essential meaning and purpose.

Maia wrote: Anyway, I've already given you the opportunity to go over these things with me, and I would now appreciate it if you stick to the subject at hand, if you choose to comment on my threads. Thanks.


Well, the irony here was that I had decided not to respond to your posts on this thread. Instead, I responded to a post from Sculptor:

iambiguous wrote:
Sculptor wrote:It's all fake.


It's not fake if you believe it's real.

That's why, let's fact it, what else is there in this world but in either being able to or not able to demonstrate to others that what you believe [about anything] is in fact true.

I merely suggest that for some what they believe is true they believe is true more because the belief itself allows them to sustain a measure of comfort and consolation in regard to doing the right thing on this side of the grave in order [for the religious among us] to carry on doing things on the other side of the grave.

And yet the staggering mystery embedded in the existence of existence itself runs so deep that there's not much that can't at least be imagined to be true. Especially if it makes you feel snuggly grounded to nature. Or to the universe itself?


The arrogance of his own "my way or the highway" approach to these things. Your name didn't come up at all.

It was only when you responded to my post responding to his post -- "I only tend to believe what I can experience myself" -- that you and I started up again.


Just like how your seventh post on the thread where you had agreed to post only six wasn't really directed at me, right?

You're about 70, is that correct? Give or take a few years, that is. I surmise this from the fact that you were in Vietnam. This makes you about the same age as many of our members at the senior citizens club. And one thing I can tell you from long experience is that elderly people start thinking in increasingly rigid terms. One of our main aims at the club is to loosen them up a bit, with physical exercise, and I can assure you that it really does work.

I think I told you this almost in our second or third interaction in that long conversation we had a few months ago.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:14 am

Meno_ wrote:There is some true to life evidence to Maia's point. The one which comes to mind is a CIA military-intelligence operation , which resulted in the odd, and total disappearance of a battleship.

It consisted in placing a highly gifted esp-endowed sailor. As records show, the premise of the experiment remains a testament that the experiment actually was preformed.

Around the seated and buckled sailor, an enormous set of magnets were circulated, creating a huge electro-magnetic field. The test goes down as a mytery, never solved.

This was conducted a few years after the conclusion of WW2.


Is that the Philadelphia experiment?
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Meno_ » Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:09 am

Maia wrote:
Meno_ wrote:There is some true to life evidence to Maia's point. The one which comes to mind is a CIA military-intelligence operation , which resulted in the odd, and total disappearance of a battleship.

It consisted in placing a highly gifted esp-endowed sailor. As records show, the premise of the experiment remains a testament that the experiment actually was preformed.

Around the seated and buckled sailor, an enormous set of magnets were circulated, creating a huge electro-magnetic field. The test goes down as a mytery, never solved.

This was conducted a few years after the conclusion of WW2.


Is that the Philadelphia experiment?



Yes.You heard about it? There are some 'fake news' about it like the moon landing was fabricated on a Hollywood set. I tend to dismiss the idea of news being totally fake.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:29 am

Maia wrote:Just like how your seventh post on the thread where you had agreed to post only six wasn't really directed at me, right?


Of course it was directed at you. But we'll have to agree to disagree regarding whether it constituted the forbidden 7th post.

As I noted in my 6th post...

And all I can do is to hope against hope that I catch at least a glimpse of someone willing [given my own subjective point of view] to jettison the surficial comforts and consolations of psychologisms for what "I" construe to be a much deeper examination into these things.


Instead, in my own opinion, just more one or two line psychologisms. I felt it was fair to point that out.

You're about 70, is that correct? Give or take a few years, that is. I surmise this from the fact that you were in Vietnam. This makes you about the same age as many of our members at the senior citizens club. And one thing I can tell you from long experience is that elderly people start thinking in increasingly rigid terms. One of our main aims at the club is to loosen them up a bit, with physical exercise, and I can assure you that it really does work.


Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the points I raised with you. And how, in regard to moral, political and spiritual value judgments, someone who acknowledges that he is fractured and fragmented, drawn and quartered, and deeply ambivalent can be construed as "rigid" in his thinking is beyond my grasp.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:02 am

Mr Biguous

"And then asking yourself, "okay, what then is the most rational and virtuous 'ist' to be"."

I don't think there's anything inherently contradictory in simultaneously thinking "I'm correct in what I believe now" and ALSO thinking, "given different circumstances in life, I would have believed something else (and been incorrect in that life)".

What's wrong with that?

Also, does Maia think paganism is the most rational and virtuous ist?
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:14 am

Meno_ wrote:
Maia wrote:
Meno_ wrote:There is some true to life evidence to Maia's point. The one which comes to mind is a CIA military-intelligence operation , which resulted in the odd, and total disappearance of a battleship.

It consisted in placing a highly gifted esp-endowed sailor. As records show, the premise of the experiment remains a testament that the experiment actually was preformed.

Around the seated and buckled sailor, an enormous set of magnets were circulated, creating a huge electro-magnetic field. The test goes down as a mytery, never solved.

This was conducted a few years after the conclusion of WW2.


Is that the Philadelphia experiment?



Yes.You heard about it? There are some 'fake news' about it like the moon landing was fabricated on a Hollywood set. I tend to dismiss the idea of news being totally fake.


I've heard conflicting accounts of it. One thing is certainly the case, though, and that is that a great many strange phenomena, from the Philadelphia experiment to UFOs, and ghosts, are often associated with electro-magnetic effects, such as a tingling sensation, and electrical equipment failing.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:20 am

Flannel Jesus wrote:Mr Biguous

"And then asking yourself, "okay, what then is the most rational and virtuous 'ist' to be"."

I don't think there's anything inherently contradictory in simultaneously thinking "I'm correct in what I believe now" and ALSO thinking, "given different circumstances in life, I would have believed something else (and been incorrect in that life)".

What's wrong with that?

Also, does Maia think paganism is the most rational and virus ist?


The answer to that is, no I don't. I think everyone has their own path to follow. Mine happens to be Paganism, because I have a spiritual connection to nature, but that certainly won't appeal to everyone.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:35 pm

Meant to say virtuous, not virus.

Mr. Biguous, I think her reply there might actually shed a bit of light on your take on her beliefs. I think you've had a deep misconception about her beliefs that's leading to these types of arguments.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:50 pm

It's not just her and her beliefs.

He has the same fixed ideas about anyone with spiritual or religious beliefs.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:08 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mr Biguous

"And then asking yourself, "okay, what then is the most rational and virtuous 'ist' to be"."

I don't think there's anything inherently contradictory in simultaneously thinking "I'm correct in what I believe now" and ALSO thinking, "given different circumstances in life, I would have believed something else (and been incorrect in that life)".

What's wrong with that?


Okay, let's really bring it down to Earth.

You are opposed to abortion. Why? Because you were indoctrinated as a child and had experiences in life that predisposed you to think like this. It reaches the point where you are able to justify to yourself that taking the life of a doctor that performs abortion is moral.

Or. You were indoctrinated as a child and had experiences in life that predisposed you to think like this but then you met Alice the feminist. Alice introduced you to a whole new world and, over time, not only did you not murder the abortion doctor, you joined the pro-choice community and came to staunchly defend a woman's right to choose an abortion.

Basically my own trajectory in the OP here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

Just different people and sets of circumstances.

Now, it dawns on you that the main reason you once fiercely opposed abortion was because of your childhood indoctrination and your own personal experiences. But then you had new experiences and changed your mind. Well, what if you have more new experiences and change your mind yet again?

Instead, as a philosopher, you ask yourself: is there a way to actually know for sure what the most rational and virtuous frame of mind is here? An argument such that whatever your childhood indoctrination in all the different historical, cultural and experiential contexts you might be "thrown" into at birth, and whatever personal [subjective] experiences you might have, you can configure into a Neo-Kant and grasp the actual obligation of all rational and virtuous human beings in regard to the morality of abortion?

Flannel Jesus wrote: Also, does Maia think paganism is the most rational and virtuous ist?


You'll have to ask her how she connects the dots "in her head" between the behaviors she chooses, her interactions with an amoral and essentially meaningless and purposeless nature, the Goddess and the fact that she considers herself to be a "moral person".

I would merely suggest this:

Given a particular set of circumstances in which other Pagan "ists" can come to completely conflicting value judgments interacting with this same nature.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:14 pm

phyllo wrote:It's not just her and her beliefs.

He has the same fixed ideas about anyone with spiritual or religious beliefs.


This is basically Phyllo in Stooge mood. His "Larry" persona. As with pood, he's taken to following me a around and "exposing" me to others. In fact, he created a whole new thread for this: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=197313

Oh, yeah, almost forgot: 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:43 pm

But she already said she doesn't think paganism is necessarily the most rational or virtuous.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:52 pm

Me:

iambiguous wrote:Okay, let's really bring it down to Earth.

You are opposed to abortion. Why? Because you were indoctrinated as a child and had experiences in life that predisposed you to think like this. It reaches the point where you are able to justify to yourself that taking the life of a doctor that performs abortion is moral.

Or. You were indoctrinated as a child and had experiences in life that predisposed you to think like this but then you met Alice the feminist. Alice introduced you to a whole new world and, over time, not only did you not murder the abortion doctor, you joined the pro-choice community and came to staunchly defend a woman's right to choose an abortion.

Basically my own trajectory in the OP here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

Just different people and sets of circumstances.

Now, it dawns on you that the main reason you once fiercely opposed abortion was because of your childhood indoctrination and your own personal experiences. But then you had new experiences and changed your mind. Well, what if you have more new experiences and change your mind yet again?

Instead, as a philosopher, you ask yourself: is there a way to actually know for sure what the most rational and virtuous frame of mind is here? An argument such that whatever your childhood indoctrination in all the different historical, cultural and experiential contexts you might be "thrown" into at birth, and whatever personal [subjective] experiences you might have, you can configure into a Neo-Kant and grasp the actual obligation of all rational and virtuous human beings in regard to the morality of abortion?

Flannel Jesus wrote: Also, does Maia think paganism is the most rational and virtuous ist?


You'll have to ask her how she connects the dots "in her head" between the behaviors she chooses, her interactions with an amoral and essentially meaningless and purposeless nature, the Goddess and the fact that she considers herself to be a "moral person".

I would merely suggest this:

Given a particular set of circumstances in which other Pagan "ists" can come to completely conflicting value judgments interacting with this same nature.


You?

Flannel Jesus wrote:But she already said she doesn't think paganism is Beverly l necessarily the most rational or virtuous.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:15 pm

Flannel Jesus,

I hope you'll come back and continue our exchange. Given a mutual respect for each other's intelligence.

Flannel Jesus wrote:But she already said she doesn't think paganism is necessarily the most rational or virtuous.


But my point is that if what she thinks Paganism is derived far more from the existential life that she actually lived rather than from a capacity on the part of philosophers to pin down which "ism" is the most rational and virtuous, then that very understanding of identity -- "I" in the is/ought world -- has profound implications for human interactions.

For me this part:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

With you, with Maia, with others, I can only explore why, given your own or their own moral and political value judgments, you and they are not "fractured and fragmented" as "I" am.

Now, here I make the assumption that we live in a No God world. And even the philosophical deontologists over the years -- from Plato and Descartes to Kant -- have acknowledged the need for a transcending font among mere mortals. Whereas Maia notes that nature itself is amoral and lacking in any teleology. And all these different Pagans on all their different personal paths coming up with all these different value judgments is a kind of fractured and fragmented morality to me. At least within an actual community of Pagans.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:22 pm

[quote="Flannel Jesus"]Meant to say virtuous, not virus.

K: I for one, am not sure there is a difference between virtuous and virus
one could and probably should make the argument that there is no
different between the concept of virtue and virus......both are implants
from outside of us that changes our behavior and actions.....
virtue is just another childhood indoctrination..... what is virtue?
just a virus that we have yet to overcome....

Kropotkin
Now if only I could get the other "members of the collection of truth"
to put me on ignore, life would be good..

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:03 am

Maia:

"quote="Maia"]
Meno_ wrote:
Maia wrote:
Meno_ wrote:There is some true to life evidence to Maia's point. The one which comes to mind is a CIA military-intelligence operation , which resulted in the odd, and total disappearance of a battleship.

It consisted in placing a highly gifted esp-endowed sailor. As records show, the premise of the experiment remains a testament that the experiment actually was preformed.

Around the seated and buckled sailor, an enormous set of magnets were circulated, creating a huge electro-magnetic field. The test goes down as a mytery, never solved.

This was conducted a few years after the conclusion of WW2.


Is that the Philadelphia experiment?



Yes.You heard about it? There are some 'fake news' about it like the moon landing was fabricated on a Hollywood set. I tend to dismiss the idea of news being totally fake.


I've heard conflicting accounts of it. One thing is certainly the case, though, and that is that a great many strange phenomena, from the Philadelphia experiment to UFOs, and ghosts, are often associated with electro-magnetic effects, such as a tingling sensation, and electrical equipment failing.[/quote]

>>>>>> >>>>>>>

meno:


I'm getting back into this, found it unfinished and unresolved on many levels.

Viruses and virtue have connection, but strung out like the connection between magic and electro magnetism


Mesmer fooled around with it, and for a while it appeared credible. The concern over the same until michelson and morely disproved it.

But with very small quantum particles, quantum magnetism gained credible supposition. With quantum gravitation, the electric generation of fields does have almost magical properties, understood in a classical physics mode. Magic is something which classical physics would describe as near magical.

But in the modern sense, has things changed in it's relative aspects?

I think we could further explore this
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:26 am

Magical, or numinous, experiences seem to always include very physical sensations, in particular a tingling of the skin very similar to static electricity. This is primarily why I think the two are linked, though reading reports of all sorts of phenomena, from ghosts to UFO encounters, there always seems to be an electrical aspect to them.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:42 pm

Maia wrote:Certain places on the earth are magical, emanating a numinous, tangible feeling of power. Our ancestors knew this, and marked the most important of these sites with stone circles, temples, or similar monuments, which became places of healing and raising energy through ritual. A whole network of these ancient sites exists, criss-crossing the landscape with alignments, apparently for the purpose of sending the energies from one place to another. Today, dowsers can pick up these energy lines, which are often associated with underground streams. Dowsing is a skill that anyone can pick up with just a small amount of practice.

The feeling in these places of power, the tingling of the skin, is very much like an electrical feeling, and if our ancestors felt this too, then this is another reason for such places to be imbued with an aura of power. Today we are awash with electro-magnetic radiation produced artificially, but nevertheless such ancient sites still retain their power, especially at certain times, following the ancient cycles of day, month and year, as they always have done.

So, are magic and electro-magnetism somehow related?

As the force of our being is electromagnetic, all the organs having their magnetic field, the brain being little else but electrochemical discharging and recharging, any phenomenon on Earth to do with consciousness must have to do with EM, no?
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:49 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Maia wrote:Certain places on the earth are magical, emanating a numinous, tangible feeling of power. Our ancestors knew this, and marked the most important of these sites with stone circles, temples, or similar monuments, which became places of healing and raising energy through ritual. A whole network of these ancient sites exists, criss-crossing the landscape with alignments, apparently for the purpose of sending the energies from one place to another. Today, dowsers can pick up these energy lines, which are often associated with underground streams. Dowsing is a skill that anyone can pick up with just a small amount of practice.

The feeling in these places of power, the tingling of the skin, is very much like an electrical feeling, and if our ancestors felt this too, then this is another reason for such places to be imbued with an aura of power. Today we are awash with electro-magnetic radiation produced artificially, but nevertheless such ancient sites still retain their power, especially at certain times, following the ancient cycles of day, month and year, as they always have done.

So, are magic and electro-magnetism somehow related?

As the force of our being is electromagnetic, all the organs having their magnetic field, the brain being little else but electrochemical discharging and recharging, any phenomenon on Earth to do with consciousness must have to do with EM, no?


Yes, absolutely.
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Maia
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