Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:46 pm

Nobody asked me, but I don’t like dowsing or homeopathy.

Think about that before you call me a crackpot who knows it works.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:28 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Maia wrote:Certain places on the earth are magical, emanating a numinous, tangible feeling of power. Our ancestors knew this, and marked the most important of these sites with stone circles, temples, or similar monuments, which became places of healing and raising energy through ritual. A whole network of these ancient sites exists, criss-crossing the landscape with alignments, apparently for the purpose of sending the energies from one place to another. Today, dowsers can pick up these energy lines, which are often associated with underground streams. Dowsing is a skill that anyone can pick up with just a small amount of practice.

The feeling in these places of power, the tingling of the skin, is very much like an electrical feeling, and if our ancestors felt this too, then this is another reason for such places to be imbued with an aura of power. Today we are awash with electro-magnetic radiation produced artificially, but nevertheless such ancient sites still retain their power, especially at certain times, following the ancient cycles of day, month and year, as they always have done.

So, are magic and electro-magnetism somehow related?



Absolutely. Maia, it is the last remaining frontier.


It's one of the main reasons why I wanted to study archaeology.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:27 pm

Maia wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:I only tend to believe what I can experience myself.


Yes, and you and I have explored our conflicting takes on this on other threads. The parts I derive from dasein, the parts you derive from nature and the Goddess.

The only reason you believe what you do now about the relationship between magic and electro-magnetism is because the experiences in your life brought you to those beliefs. You admit that had those experiences been different you might well have never even considered such a relationship at all. And that given new experiences you may well come to believe something entirely different about it.

Thus my point to Sculptor: that it's not what you believe about it but what you can demonstrate is in fact true about it. Then the part where objective truth in the either/or world [for some] becomes entangled in a spiritual Self in which [subjectively] truth itself tends to revolve as much around how a belief can make you feel psychologically [comforted/disturbed] as in how rigorously it can in fact be demonstrated.

So, in regard to "certain places on on earth" being "magical" and "emanating a numinous, tangible feeling of power", my main interest still revolves around the question, "how ought one to live"?

Okay, you have this feeling of power. What then is to be done with it such that given a particular set of circumstances both magic and electro-magnetism play an actual substantive role in your life.

How is that described to others?


Go out and demonstrate it for yourself, by trying some dowsing.

This is the energy that I raise in my rituals, which I can use for healing others, for example. This is a very common practice among Pagans.


No point here in sustaining yet another exchange in which we are basically having two very different discussions. You experience this. It works for you. Your Self is grounded in what I construe to be one of hundreds and hundreds of One True Paths out there and I am reasonably sure now that, barring some truly dramatic experience in your life down the road, you will take this psychological placebo with you to the grave.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:59 pm

+++No point here in sustaining yet another exchange in which we are basically having two very different discussions. You experience this. It works for you. Your Self is grounded in what I construe to be one of hundreds and hundreds of One True Paths out there and I am reasonably sure now that, barring some truly dramatic experience in your life down the road, you will take this psychological placebo with you to the grave.+++

Why are you scared of actually trying it?
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:20 pm

Maia wrote:+++No point here in sustaining yet another exchange in which we are basically having two very different discussions. You experience this. It works for you. Your Self is grounded in what I construe to be one of hundreds and hundreds of One True Paths out there and I am reasonably sure now that, barring some truly dramatic experience in your life down the road, you will take this psychological placebo with you to the grave.+++

Why are you scared of actually trying it?


Wiki:

"Dowsing is a type of pseudoscientific divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, gravesites, malign 'earth vibrations' and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus."


Around where I live, finding water is the last thing we need to do. Hurricane Ida, an "act of nature" that took many lives in the Northeast, dumped buckets of the stuff on us. As for all the other stuff, if I ever have a need for them, I might give it a go.

But I really don't see how it would factor into my own interest here -- how someone using whatever techniques are available to them could use them to interact with an amoral, essentially meaningless and purposeless nature in order to derive what it takes for them to become a "moral person" instead. And how magic and electro-magnetism factors into that such that it can be described and demonstrated to the scientific community.
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And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:29 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:+++No point here in sustaining yet another exchange in which we are basically having two very different discussions. You experience this. It works for you. Your Self is grounded in what I construe to be one of hundreds and hundreds of One True Paths out there and I am reasonably sure now that, barring some truly dramatic experience in your life down the road, you will take this psychological placebo with you to the grave.+++

Why are you scared of actually trying it?


Wiki:

"Dowsing is a type of pseudoscientific divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, gravesites, malign 'earth vibrations' and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus."


Around where I live, finding water is the last thing we need to do. Hurricane Ida, an "act of nature" that took many lives in the Northeast, dumped buckets of the stuff on us. As for all the other stuff, if I ever have a need for them, I might give it a go.

But I really don't see how it would factor into my own interest here -- how someone using whatever techniques are available to them could use them to interact with an amoral, essentially meaningless and purposeless nature in order to derive what it takes for them to become a "moral person" instead. And how magic and electro-magnetism factors into that such that it can be described and demonstrated to the scientific community.


I can only conclude, yet again, that you haven't bothered reading what I said, in this case, about dowsing. You accuse me of believing in a placebo, or whatever, but you are scared to go and find out the truth for yourself.

I'm a moral person because nature, evolution, has given me a moral compass. All humans have it, except psychopaths, I suppose, and also those who aspire to be psychopaths.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby pood » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:15 am

As I have pointed out, just because the rest of the universe is amoral, or unmoral, or whatever word fits best, it doesn’t follow that humans are. Evolution has indeed equipped us with a moral compass, though that is also mediated by our uprbringing, culture and so on.

I’m no expert in this, but doing some browsing I find that there are papers suggesting that humans may have a magnetic sense, though not as powerful as in other animals.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:25 am

pood wrote:As I have pointed out, just because the rest of the universe is amoral, or unmoral, or whatever word fits best, it doesn’t follow that humans are. Evolution has indeed equipped us with a moral compass, though that is also mediated by our uprbringing, culture and so on.

I’m no expert in this, but doing some browsing I find that there are papers suggesting that humans may have a magnetic sense, though not as powerful as in other animals.


Today, artificial electro-magnetic radiation is everywhere, and I strongly suspect that in ancient times, the magnetic sense in humans was far stronger. This may be why magical and numinous experiences are less common today than they were in the past.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:36 am

When it comes to things like Dowsing, I think the "try it for yourself" approach is not really sufficient. Humans are riddled with bias, which is why we need scientific processes in the first place. We need systems to help us overcome our biases.

Dowsing for water has been shown not to work. Dowsing for magnetism might "work" in the loosest sense of the word, if human bodies can in fact detect magnetism - but in that case, it wouldn't be the dowsing itself that's doing the work in that scenario, it would be whatever mechanisms in your body that can detect magnetism.

I'm not really sure what the scenario was where you tested dowsing for yourself, Maia - were you Dowsing for water or magnetism? And how did you verify that it worked? On such an individual level, at such a small scale, it's hard to believe you had rigorous procedures in place to make sure you weren't just confirming your own biases.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 am

Flannel Jesus wrote:When it comes to things like Dowsing, I think the "try it for yourself" approach is not really sufficient. Humans are riddled with bias, which is why we need scientific processes in the first place. We need systems to help us overcome our biases.

Dowsing for water has been shown not to work. Dowsing for magnetism might "work" in the loosest sense of the word, if human bodies can in fact detect magnetism - but in that case, it wouldn't be the dowsing itself that's doing the work in that scenario, it would be whatever mechanisms in your body that can detect magnetism.

I'm not really sure what the scenario was where you tested dowsing for yourself, Maia - were you Dowsing for water or magnetism? And how did you verify that it worked? On such an individual level, at such a small scale, it's hard to believe you had rigorous procedures in place to make sure you weren't just confirming your own biases.


I was dowsing for an underground magnetic current. On the path leading to the Rollright Stones there's a particular spot where the current supposedly passes under it, and everyone, so it is said, gets a very strong reaction when dowsing. The people that look after the place often give out metal dowsing rods to visitors to try it, without telling them where the spot is. So I tried it, walked along the path, and got a very strong reaction, with the rods twisting in my hands, at the correct spot. I was there with a large group of Pagans for a ritual, and they all confirmed that it worked for them, too.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:55 am

Well that particular story definitely seems to support the idea of humans ability to detect magnetic fields, rather than dowsing in particular. Based on what I've read, I find that mostly believable and very much not magic.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:23 am

Flannel Jesus wrote:Well that particular story definitely seems to support the idea of humans ability to detect magnetic fields, rather than dowsing in particular. Based on what I've read, I find that mostly believable and very much not magic.


I would describe it as a physical explanation of magic.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:25 pm

Would you describe all technology and science like that? Light from a lightbulb, for example - I'm sure if you showed a lightbulb to someone in the 1700s, they might think it was magic at first. Is the scientific understanding of the functioning of a lightbulb a physical explanation of something magic?
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby pood » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:35 pm

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:58 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:Would you describe all technology and science like that? Light from a lightbulb, for example - I'm sure if you showed a lightbulb to someone in the 1700s, they might think it was magic at first. Is the scientific understanding of the functioning of a lightbulb a physical explanation of something magic?


I'm using the term magic specifically for the energy raised in rituals, which is much more powerful at sacred sites such as stone circles. I don't mean it simply as a synonym for modern scientific discoveries.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:20 pm

Oh, I thought the suggestion was that the magnetism was there at the site already, and that's why they placed the stones there. You're suggesting that the magnetism was somehow influenced by human activity, by magic rituals?

Interesting hypothesis. Not outside the realm of testing, do the communities who believe in this have any intention of testing whether their magic rituals can create new magnetic fields?
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:28 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:Oh, I thought the suggestion was that the magnetism was there at the site already, and that's why they placed the stones there. You're suggesting that the magnetism was somehow influenced by human activity, by magic rituals?

Interesting hypothesis. Not outside the realm of testing, do the communities who believe in this have any intention of testing whether their magic rituals can create new magnetic fields?


The magnetism is there already, which is why the stones were placed there, but is channelled and directed by the rituals.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:00 pm

Maia wrote: I can only conclude, yet again, that you haven't bothered reading what I said, in this case, about dowsing. You accuse me of believing in a placebo, or whatever, but you are scared to go and find out the truth for yourself.


Yes, you have your rendition of this about me, I have my rendition of this about you. What you think frightens me about dowsing, what I think frightens you about a fractured and fragmented "I".

Maia wrote: I'm a moral person because nature, evolution, has given me a moral compass. All humans have it, except psychopaths, I suppose, and also those who aspire to be psychopaths.


Again, you believe that, through one or another combination of magic and electro-magnetism, nature and evolution has given you a moral compass. But you agree with me that had your life been different, you might well have believed none of this at all. And, further, you agree with me that given new experiences in your life you might come to reject what you believe here and, perhaps, even come to think more as I do about these things.

I just question either the depth or the sincerity of your belief. Why? Because someone who truly did believe this would never commit seven years of their life to a "spiritual" purification that includes such things as entirely avoiding any sexual activity at all. And, again, very few things are more natural for the human species than that.

To me, that's the sort of total commitment that those who take a leap of faith to God come to embody.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:35 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote: I can only conclude, yet again, that you haven't bothered reading what I said, in this case, about dowsing. You accuse me of believing in a placebo, or whatever, but you are scared to go and find out the truth for yourself.


Yes, you have your rendition of this about me, I have my rendition of this about you. What you think frightens me about dowsing, what I think frightens you about a fractured and fragmented "I".

Maia wrote: I'm a moral person because nature, evolution, has given me a moral compass. All humans have it, except psychopaths, I suppose, and also those who aspire to be psychopaths.


Again, you believe that, through one or another combination of magic and electro-magnetism, nature and evolution has given you a moral compass. But you agree with me that had your life been different, you might well have believed none of this at all. And, further, you agree with me that given new experiences in your life you might come to reject what you believe here and, perhaps, even come to think more as I do about these things.

I just question either the depth or the sincerity of your belief. Why? Because someone who truly did believe this would never commit seven years of their life to a "spiritual" purification that includes such things as entirely avoiding any sexual activity at all. And, again, very few things are more natural for the human species than that.

To me, that's the sort of total commitment that those who take a leap of faith to God come to embody.


You claim that you want to be dragged out of your hole. But you couldn't be bothered to do the very simple ritual I gave you for more than a few days. I therefore question your sincerity in wanting to be helped. Still, no one can say I didn't try.

I believe what I experience, and act accordingly. You are welcome to your own path.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:12 pm

Maia wrote: You claim that you want to be dragged out of your hole. But you couldn't be bothered to do the very simple ritual I gave you for more than a few days. I therefore question your sincerity in wanting to be helped. Still, no one can say I didn't try.


Not dragged out, persuaded [in a philosophical venue] that there is a reasonable path up out of it. And since I respected both your intelligence and your own rejection of objectivism, I figured it was worth my while exploring it with you.

On the other hand, I suspect [now] that however many days I committed to that ritual the only way in which I could demonstrate to you that I wanted to be helped is if I was helped.

Maia wrote: I believe what I experience, and act accordingly.


Yes, you note this. But only by completely avoiding this part:

Again, you believe that, through one or another combination of magic and electro-magnetism, nature and evolution has given you a moral compass. But you agree with me that had your life been different, you might well have believed none of this at all. And, further, you agree with me that given new experiences in your life you might come to reject what you believe here and, perhaps, even come to think more as I do about these things.

I just question either the depth or the sincerity of your belief. Why? Because someone who truly did believe this would never commit seven years of their life to a "spiritual" purification that includes such things as entirely avoiding any sexual activity at all. And, again, very few things are more natural for the human species than that.

To me, that's the sort of total commitment that those who take a leap of faith to God come to embody.


You believe what you experienced but you only experienced what you did because your life unfolded as it did. In my view, you don't think through the existential implications of that because there is so much at stake for you in being a "moral person" if, instead, human identity here is more in the manner in which "I" think human experiences through.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Maia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:53 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote: You claim that you want to be dragged out of your hole. But you couldn't be bothered to do the very simple ritual I gave you for more than a few days. I therefore question your sincerity in wanting to be helped. Still, no one can say I didn't try.


Not dragged out, persuaded [in a philosophical venue] that there is a reasonable path up out of it. And since I respected both your intelligence and your own rejection of objectivism, I figured it was worth my while exploring it with you.

On the other hand, I suspect [now] that however many days I committed to that ritual the only way in which I could demonstrate to you that I wanted to be helped is if I was helped.

Maia wrote: I believe what I experience, and act accordingly.


Yes, you note this. But only by completely avoiding this part:

Again, you believe that, through one or another combination of magic and electro-magnetism, nature and evolution has given you a moral compass. But you agree with me that had your life been different, you might well have believed none of this at all. And, further, you agree with me that given new experiences in your life you might come to reject what you believe here and, perhaps, even come to think more as I do about these things.

I just question either the depth or the sincerity of your belief. Why? Because someone who truly did believe this would never commit seven years of their life to a "spiritual" purification that includes such things as entirely avoiding any sexual activity at all. And, again, very few things are more natural for the human species than that.

To me, that's the sort of total commitment that those who take a leap of faith to God come to embody.


You believe what you experienced but you only experienced what you did because your life unfolded as it did. In my view, you don't think through the existential implications of that because there is so much at stake for you in being a "moral person" if, instead, human identity here is more in the manner in which "I" think human experiences through.


I can assure you that the one sure way of not being dragged out of that hole is to carry on with what you've been doing, endlessly going round in circles in arid, sterile arguments.

As I've said many, many times, the fact that if my life had been different I may well have ended up with different opinions is true but obvious. My life is the life I've led. It might not have been, but it is.

Anyway, I've already given you the opportunity to go over these things with me, and I would now appreciate it if you stick to the subject at hand, if you choose to comment on my threads. Thanks.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby pood » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:23 pm

Maia, maybe you could clarify. When you speak of magic, do you mean something that is somehow supernatural, or occult, or something of that nature? Because electromagnetism is fully naturalistic and very well explained,

If you mean magic in the sense of the supernatural, I don’t share that view, but I don’t think it can be totally dismissed either. I just think that there are wide areas of reality that are entirely, or mostly, foreclosed to us, because of the limits of our particular nature as evolved beings. Sometimes, though, we may get a glimpse of those other realms, and we chalk it up to magic, the occult or supernaturalism. I would chalk it up to naturalism that we may not have full access to.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:19 pm

Maia wrote: As I've said many, many times, the fact that if my life had been different I may well have ended up with different opinions is true but obvious. My life is the life I've led. It might not have been, but it is.


But what is clearly not obvious to you is the extent to which how, in accepting this, you are agreeing that had your life been different you might well be here making Flannel Jesus's points instead. And that should you encounter new experiences you might well be in here arguing my points instead.

Again, the existential nature of human identity rooted subjectively in dasein rather than in one's capacity to become a "moral person" intertwined in an amoral nature lacking in both essential meaning and purpose.

Maia wrote: Anyway, I've already given you the opportunity to go over these things with me, and I would now appreciate it if you stick to the subject at hand, if you choose to comment on my threads. Thanks.


Well, the irony here was that I had decided not to respond to your posts on this thread. Instead, I responded to a post from Sculptor:

iambiguous wrote:
Sculptor wrote:It's all fake.


It's not fake if you believe it's real.

That's why, let's fact it, what else is there in this world but in either being able to or not able to demonstrate to others that what you believe [about anything] is in fact true.

I merely suggest that for some what they believe is true they believe is true more because the belief itself allows them to sustain a measure of comfort and consolation in regard to doing the right thing on this side of the grave in order [for the religious among us] to carry on doing things on the other side of the grave.

And yet the staggering mystery embedded in the existence of existence itself runs so deep that there's not much that can't at least be imagined to be true. Especially if it makes you feel snuggly grounded to nature. Or to the universe itself?


The arrogance of his own "my way or the highway" approach to these things. Your name didn't come up at all.

It was only when you responded to my post responding to his post -- "I only tend to believe what I can experience myself" -- that you and I started up again.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:40 pm

"But what is clearly not obvious to you is the extent to which how, in accepting this, you are agreeing that had your life been different you might well be here making Flannel Jesus's points instead. And that should you encounter new experiences you might well be in here arguing my points instead."

I might be missing some context here, but like Maia, I don't really get why you keep bringing this up. This is generally true across the board: anybody, whoever they are, whatever they believe, is likely to accept this general premise.
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Re: Is magic related to electro-magnetism?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:07 pm

There is some true to life evidence to Maia's point. The one which comes to mind is a CIA military-intelligence operation , which resulted in the odd, and total disappearance of a battleship.

It consisted in placing a highly gifted esp-endowed sailor. As records show, the premise of the experiment remains a testament that the experiment actually was preformed.

Around the seated and buckled sailor, an enormous set of magnets were circulated, creating a huge electro-magnetic field. The test goes down as a mytery, never solved.

This was conducted a few years after the conclusion of WW2.
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