What is quantum mechanics?

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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:59 pm

I am only asking you to define what you are saying with some scientific discipline. Don't be so touchy.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:00 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:You are like Socrates. "Can you demonstrate that you are standing here, aside from by standing here?"


The point is that you don't need to. You don't need force to account for anything that is in the system, because it is in the system anyway.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:01 pm

If you read force into it arbitrarily, you are substituting what might actually be there and likely distorting the whole analysis.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:04 pm

The origin to a system is never arbitrary to it, though Zizek may argue differently.

Youre not just asking dude, youre being very rude and doing some very bad reading and making me very contemptuous, which makes me very sad.

Read the fucking Bohr. Go to the roots. I know you deny that the essence lies there, but its all I can point you to. The roots of QM. Spectral analysis. Imprints of force.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:07 pm

I am asking. The rudeness is being read into it by you. The question may be difficult considering the answer is absurd, but that is what it is, a question.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:08 pm

You are saying force is elemental to the system. I am asking you where it is, and to put it in clear scientific terms.

I am also explaining why it is not, in fact, there, unless it is there.

Clear your mind and use some discipline.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:16 pm

The answer is the story of the original experiment that led to the notion of 'quantum'. Its not some abstraction.

Read through history of these experiments. You used to be all about the history of things. That was your main thing, was it not? Precisely because they consist of the particulars.

You are saying force is elemental to the system. I am asking you where it is, and to put it in clear scientific terms.

I am giving you the reference to the history of the system. That history is one of force. Its just, like, there for you to learn about.

I am also explaining why it is not, in fact, there, unless it is there.

Youre only stating that it is, without any reference. And you seem to call random groundless statements and dismissals of empirical histories as a proper standard of discipline.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:22 pm

Let me reformulate then. You tell me if it is rude or baseless or vague.

You say force is elemental to every system.

I say quantic analysis only requires that a quantum, a countable, can manifest as something to an observer.

I point out that in no part of that quantic operation force is required.

I point out further that reading force into an analysis of a system where a quantum cannot strictly be found to manifest as force in specific terms can distort the analysis.

I ask you to point out how force is in fact present in the system beyond specific manifestation.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:16 pm

Do you deny then that observation itself requires force to play a part?

It seems to me you superimpose some abstract element (a thing 'beyond' the actual event where the two concepts "observing"/"being observed" meet in an event, a thing that can be 'scienced') on the basic facts of existence. Philosophy as I teach it eliminates the need for such nerdiness.

If something is absolutely unverifiable, it does not exist. That is a premise that may be construed as a mere hypothesis, but it is the basic law of thought.
So what is the perfect minimum quantum is the perfect minimum of capacity to be verified. That particular capacity, happens to be relayed through the 'jumpy' nature you see in the spectrum analysis that gave rise to the concept of quanta, which came to replace the Newtonean strata of infinitesimals.

It is about the capacity to read and influence on an ontological level, objective power. So it starts in the scientific method, empirical verification. Francis Bacon is to be credited with instating that method, replacing the aristotelean premise of a-priori identity; the 'god-given' world. Even Einstein clung to a last shred of this instinct; QM breaks with it definitively. It brings science down entirely to the Earth; which is why it gets so subtle and why mathematics goes berserk over it; the possibilities are too great.

Scientific discoveries are what leads to new mathematics, not vice versa, as Newton developed Calculus to work with his discoveries, so all of quantum mathematics arise from the discovery of the original ''quantum weirdness" in the spectra of radiation (force) given out in atomic decay.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:20 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Do you deny then that observation itself requires force to play a part?


Yes, I deny it. I can describe observation without it being incoherent if force is not included. Force would be required if there was some mediacy between observing and the system. There is not, the observer, and thus observing, is fully part of the system. Otherwise, well, it is not part of the system.

Fixed Cross wrote:It seems to me you superimpose some abstract element (a thing 'beyond' the actual event where the two concepts "observing"/"being observed" meet in an event, a thing that can be 'scienced') on the basic facts of existence.


I really don't. I am saying there is no mediacy. You are postulating the mediacy of force.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:22 pm

God damn it, I edited a prior into a priori after you replied.

Here's the original post.

Do you deny then that observation itself requires force to play a part?

It seems to me you superimpose some abstract element (a thing 'beyond' the actual event where the two concepts "observing"/"being observed" meet in an event, a thing that can be 'scienced') on the basic facts of existence. Philosophy as I teach it eliminates the need for such nerdiness.

If something is absolutely unverifiable, it does not exist. That is a premise that may be construed as a mere hypothesis, but it is the basic law of thought.
So what is the perfect minimum quantum is the perfect minimum of capacity to be verified. That particular capacity, happens to be relayed through the 'jumpy' nature you see in the spectrum analysis that gave rise to the concept of quanta, which came to replace the Newtonean strata of infinitesimals.

It is about the capacity to read and influence on an ontological level, objective power. So it starts in the scientific method, empirical verification. Francis Bacon is to be credited with instating that method, replacing the aristotelean premise of a-prior identity; the 'god-given' world. Even Einstein clung to a last shred of this instinct; QM breaks with it definitively. It brings science down entirely to the Earth; which is why it gets so subtle and why mathematics goes berserk over it; the possibilities are too great.

Scientific discoveries are what leads to new mathematics, not vice versa, as Newton developed Calculus to work with his discoveries, so all of quantum mathematics arise from the discovery of the original ''quantum weirdness" in the spectra of radiation (force) given out in atomic decay.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:22 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:If something is absolutely unverifiable, it does not exist. That is a premise that may be construed as a mere hypothesis, but it is the basic law of thought.
So what is the perfect minimum quantum is the perfect minimum of capacity to be verified. That particular capacity,


Is the capacity to be differentiatable from any other particular quantum in the system.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:22 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:God damn it, I edited a prior into a priori after you replied.


Just, for fuck's sake, read twice before you post.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:23 pm

origami wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Do you deny then that observation itself requires force to play a part?


Yes, I deny it. I can describe observation without it being incoherent if force is not included. Force would be required if there was some mediacy between observing and the system. There is not, the observer, and thus observing, is fully part of the system. Otherwise, well, it is not part of the system.

Take it more literally. Describing is exertion of force.

Fixed Cross wrote:It seems to me you superimpose some abstract element (a thing 'beyond' the actual event where the two concepts "observing"/"being observed" meet in an event, a thing that can be 'scienced') on the basic facts of existence.


I really don't. I am saying there is no mediacy. You are postulating the mediacy of force.

Im positing its necessity for the act of observation.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:25 pm

origami wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:God damn it, I edited a prior into a priori after you replied.


Just, for fuck's sake, read twice before you post.


My reply stands, and I add this:

Fixed Cross wrote:Scientific discoveries are what leads to new mathematics, not vice versa, as Newton developed Calculus to work with his discoveries, so all of quantum mathematics arise from the discovery of the original ''quantum weirdness" in the spectra of radiation (force) given out in atomic decay.


This is simply not true, and one of the reasons I am urging you to study these things more closely for as long as it takes. All mathematical systems used in new physical discoveries predate the discoveries. This includes Newton, he developped fluxions first (calculus is the essencially same thing that Leibniz developped at basically the same time), and developped it based on math that already pointed to it, as shown by the fact that Leibniz found it too.

Every single mathematical operation Einstein ever used already existed, sometimes for decades before, sometimes centuries.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:27 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Take it more literally. Describing is exertion of force.


Then describing could include a quantum of force in a system studying a specific instance of human activity.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:28 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Im positing its necessity for the act of observation.


That exactly means mediacy. Between observer and observation, there is a mediacy by force. (as you postulate)
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:30 pm

origami wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Take it more literally. Describing is exertion of force.


Then describing could include a quantum of force in a system studying a specific instance of human activity.


Excuse me, a quantum that manifests as force when a certain measurement is applied to it.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:35 pm

Rather, observer and observation are the produced (brought into existence) by force.

Positions are the outlines of an event. Science use the concept force to delineate events.

Observer/Observed gives an empty slot in between -- so I can see your issue, though disagree with you on how to approach that issue; Valuing/Being Valued - gives an alchemy.

Newton, as Bacon, was an alchemist.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:41 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Rather, observer and observation are the produced (brought into existence) by force.


That's still a mediacy, an extrenuous element, such that it constitutes

Fixed Cross wrote:superimpos[ing] some abstract element (a thing 'beyond' the actual event where the two concepts "observing"/"being observed" meet in an event, a thing that can be 'scienced') on the basic facts of existence.




Fixed Cross wrote:Positions are the outlines of an event. Science use the concept force to delineate events.


Not in quantum analysis. In quantum analysis, if it is posited, it is already in the event, in the system. Nothing delineates it.

Fixed Cross wrote:Observer/Observed gives an empty slot in between


Right, mediacy, or

Fixed Cross wrote:superimpos[ing] some abstract element (a thing 'beyond' the actual event where the two concepts "observing"/"being observed" meet in an event, a thing that can be 'scienced') on the basic facts of existence.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:43 pm

Quantum analysis doesn't need an empty slot, or a slot containing force. It sees observer, it sees what is observed, and observation is constituted.

Unless the system calls for the defining of a specific quantum that manifests as force in that specific system to account for a mediacy that can be measured and traced coherently as it changes along with the other parameters in the system.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:53 pm

In short, you are answering a question that was never asked.

There is a system with quanti. It is defined, measured and tracked. Then you say "there is force between every quanti." And we say "no." And you say "you are right, there is this prophetic element I have discovered instead." And we say "instead of what?"
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:19 pm

Here is the problem gangsta. You are trying to make an ontologic structure out of an analytic system. But the analytic system will always be more powerful than your ontologic structure, because it is unburdened by assumptions.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:01 pm

That was the same thing that made infinitesimal analysis superior to Aristotelian analysis, and the same thing that made relativistic physics superior to classical physics.

Each time, a burden of assumption was removed from the method. It's not that Galileo and Copernicus discovered what perfect forms and substance actually are that Aristotle mistook, it's that they removed the burden altogether. The question isn't what are perfect forms actually, but what perfect forms?

The question wasn't what the smallest possible particle was, but what smallest possible particle?

The question wasn't what substance was actually, but what substance?

All quantic analysis has is quanti that manifest in ways that can be described to conform to a certain idea of what something might look like. The reliance isn't on what any thing is, but on how any given measure, given value, can be described in the context of a system while maintaining coherence.

Maintaining coherence is the barest minimum for thought. If you keep only that requirement, then literally anything you can think of can be analysed. You are not restricted by whether it's a perfect form, or a particle, or substance, or spacial, or temporal, or force, or anything. The only thing that matters, the only thing that matters, is that it maintain coherence as observations of it return different measurements.
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Re: What is quantum mechanics?

Postby origami » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:06 pm

Even values aren't required. Values are only required insofar as math is to be applied to the system, so that specific numbers can be assigned and tracked.

But if you don't use math, you don't even need values. You only need identifiability, which coherence requires.

There is no force, anything only ever manifests as force. There is no identity either, anything only ever manifests as identity, but this is included in the concept of identity. All within the field. It's a utility, not a claim on substance.
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