something from nothing or always something

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something from nothing or always something

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:52 pm

From PN: https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 16&t=35077

Why is there something instead of nothing?
Posted by EarthSky Voices
Lloyd Strickland
Originally published November 11, 2016, in The Conversation

Many earlier thinkers had asked why our universe is the way it is, but Leibniz went a step further, wondering why there is a universe at all. The question is a challenging one because it seems perfectly possible that there might have been nothing whatsoever – no Earth, no stars, no galaxies, no universe. Leibniz even thought that nothing would have been “simpler and easier.” If nothing whatsoever had existed then no explanation would have been needed, not that there would have been anyone around to ask for an explanation, of course, but that’s a different matter.


Oh, indeed, a very different matter. Really, try to imagine nothing existing at all. Or try to imagine something always existing. Either way you are left only with "intellectual" or "philosophical" or "metaphysical" assessments.

Leibniz thought that the fact that there is something and not nothing requires an explanation. The explanation he gave was that God wanted to create a universe – the best one possible – which makes God the simple reason that there is something rather than nothing.


And the part where God came into existence out of nothing at all...or always existed?

Of course: a leap of faith!

In the years since Leibniz’s death, his great question has continued to exercise philosophers and scientists, though in an increasingly secular age it is not surprising that many have been wary of invoking God as the answer to it.


On the other hand, that hasn't stopped some secularists among us from imagining that they themselves are...God: omniscient and able to know if existence popped into existence out of nothing or was always around.

Logically for example.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:04 pm

The void is not necessarily a logical con cept for instance.
It remains to be seen how it was derived, from other than those sources yet to be derived. To void or to erase a memory of some idea of what such substance consists of, may exceed the resources both intellectual ,or another that invites the intention to do so.

That there is something outside the appearent void begs the contest between what can be outside of what is appearent.

That may be beyond efforts to comprehend it as even possible, not less probable to ascertain.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 pm

They misundestood Liebniz. It's not that existence requires a source. It's that the concept of God requires God being the source of existence. Because God can be thought of, and can be thought of as having created existence, the thought of God The Creator of Existence exists, and so, patently, God the creator of existence exists.

In the same way, the reason it is the best of all possible worlds is that God is perfect, and so the world he created is necessarily the best of all possible worlds.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:18 pm

The thought of all this is what Liebniz considered revelation by the Grace of God. That the thought exists is proof that it is revelation from the Grace of God, by definition.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:19 pm

Because it cannot be disproven, as it is its own proof, the question becomes: what does it entail?
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:29 pm

origami wrote:The thought of all this is what Liebniz considered revelation by the Grace of God. That the thought exists is proof that it is revelation from the Grace of God, by definition.

By (it’s) definition, doesn’t mean that 'it' exists.. under that circumstance then anything could exist, ergo insanity.

God is good, praise be to God.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

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aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:45 pm

Well, it does exist, because you just mentioned it. If there were were no it, there would be no mention of it.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:46 pm

MagsJ wrote:God is good, praise be to God.


I hope you won't take this to mean I am emitting an opinion on your faith. I am only making a philosophical point.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:56 pm

origami wrote:Well, it does exist, because you just mentioned it. If there were were no it, there would be no mention of it.

..again, I can mention anything that comes to mind.. doesn’t mean that all n sundry exists.. it is simply an idea/ideal that may or might come to fruition or not.

God means good.. praise be to god.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:56 pm

origami wrote:
MagsJ wrote:God is good, praise be to God.


I hope you won't take this to mean I am emitting an opinion on your faith. I am only making a philosophical point.

..and what Faith, is that?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:59 pm

Whatever faith it might be, I just assumed, as "God is good, praise be to God" sounded to me as the assertion of a religious person.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby MagsJ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:00 am

origami wrote:Whatever faith it might be, I just assumed, as "God is good, praise be to God" sounded to me as the assertion of a religious person.

What is religion?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:01 am

MagsJ wrote:..again, I can mention anything that comes to mind.. doesn’t mean that all n sundry exists.. it is simply an idea/ideal that may or might come to fruition or not.


Whatever it is, an idea, a fruit, one thing is certain: it exists. Whether or not it meets the criteria for substance would sooner face the question of whether the concept claims substance, whatever substance might be.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:01 am

MagsJ wrote:
origami wrote:Whatever faith it might be, I just assumed, as "God is good, praise be to God" sounded to me as the assertion of a religious person.

What is religion?


I hazard to say it is a God or pantheon that one worships in one way or another.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:06 am

"A" God is a tricky term, as God is a very specific term that isn't the same term as, say, Poseidon.

Religion does include, in one way or another, an immortal.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby MagsJ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:10 am

origami wrote:
MagsJ wrote:..again, I can mention anything that comes to mind.. doesn’t mean that all n sundry exists.. it is simply an idea/ideal that may or might come to fruition or not.

Whatever it is, an idea, a fruit, one thing is certain: it exists. Whether or not it meets the criteria for substance would sooner face the question of whether the concept claims substance, whatever substance might be.

What is substance, to you?

To me, something either does or does not exist.. all else are ideas, ideals, notions, assumptions, presumptions, presuppositions and so forth.. and even those don’t come from nothing.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:11 am

origami wrote:Because it cannot be disproven, as it is its own proof, the question becomes: what does it entail?



It entails both: it's existential necessity with it's phenomenologically reduced probablility to the uncertainty of a transcendental unity.
However, that unity, could never have hypothesized had it not been a pre existing image in the first place.

That image of the hypothetical could not have arisen from a primordial mutual exclusion , only through a transcendental object, that entails both in sync.

Other than that, the proof and it's negation both entail variable elements which can relate directly or inversely , changing transvaluable contents framed accordingly in contextually relative simulated reference.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:14 am

MagsJ wrote: all else are ideas, ideals, notions, assumptions, presumptions, presuppositions and so forth..


Surely, though, all those things exist.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:14 am

MagsJ wrote:What is substance, to you?


Little more than a superstition, I'm afraid, but it is terribly important to a lot of people.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:15 am

Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:Because it cannot be disproven, as it is its own proof, the question becomes: what does it entail?



It entails both: it's existential necessity with it's phenomenologically reduced probablility to the uncertainty of a transcendental unity.
However, that unity, could never have hypothesized had it not been a pre existing image in the first place.

That image of the hypothetical could not have arisen from a primordial mutual exclusion , only through a transcendental object, that entails both in sync.

Other than that, the proof and it's negation both entail variable elements which can relate directly or inversely , changing transvaluable contents framed accordingly in contextually relative simulated reference.


I meant what does God entail, not what your doubts regarding the substance of God entail.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:18 am

Sorry out of order. The assumptive roll back was not pursued?, because that depth of inqueru have been ruled out behind reason by categorical closures of modern inquiry witin the limits of it's own set boundaries. The epoche sets reverse boundaries as 'proof' of the progressive necessity for logical derivation.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:20 am

The boundaries are set by yourself. I am happy to pursue the subject any time.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:23 am

origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:Because it cannot be disproven, as it is its own proof, the question becomes: what does it entail?



It entails both: it's existential necessity with it's phenomenologically reduced probablility to the uncertainty of a transcendental unity.
However, that unity, could never have hypothesized had it not been a pre existing image in the first place.

That image of the hypothetical could not have arisen from a primordial mutual exclusion , only through a transcendental object, that entails both in sync.

Other than that, the proof and it's negation both entail variable elements which can relate directly or inversely , changing transvaluable contents framed accordingly in contextually relative simulated reference.


I meant what does God entail, not what your doubts regarding the substance of God entail.


Doubts of God and what God entails relate to the same limit that the 'roll back' categorically closes as a possible entailment, for beyond those set boundaries, only the mystics, the magi, the prophets , on one hand; and the relativist positivists of uncertainty are in a position to go beyond.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:23 am

origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:Because it cannot be disproven, as it is its own proof, the question becomes: what does it entail?



It entails both: it's existential necessity with it's phenomenologically reduced probablility to the uncertainty of a transcendental unity.
However, that unity, could never have hypothesized had it not been a pre existing image in the first place.

That image of the hypothetical could not have arisen from a primordial mutual exclusion , only through a transcendental object, that entails both in sync.

Other than that, the proof and it's negation both entail variable elements which can relate directly or inversely , changing transvaluable contents framed accordingly in contextually relative simulated reference.


I meant what does God entail, not what your doubts regarding the substance of God entail.


Doubts of God and what God entails relate to the same limit that the 'roll back' categorically closes as a possible entailment, for beyond those set boundaries, only the mystics, the magi, the prophets , on one hand; and the relativist positivists of uncertainty are in a position to go beyond.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:24 am

Doubts of God or what God entails are one thing, doubts about the substance of God are another. The latter have been the ones you have been posing.
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