something from nothing or always something

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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:20 pm

Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:He might as well have said that God is beyond everything, even beyond the beyond? Of anything anyone could think of, beyond anything seen or unseen way beyond any tonight or sense.


How so?

Unless you mean he never gives a basis for substance of God, which he doesn't, because substance isn't an actual thing beyond a thought. Perhaps you mean matter? I don't see any claim in Leibniz that God is matter.

God is beyond nothing. He is right there, when you think of him.





So, is it a claim of God that is not bearing out, or an imaginary criteria that you are imposing?

Why don't we start with you putting forward what substance is. You might as well be saying that substance is beyond everything, even beyond the beyond, of anything one could think of, beyond anything seen or unseen way beyond any (???) or sense.

Except God doesn't make the claims substance makes, so he's not, in fact, beyond any thought, but in many thoughts.


Sure God makes no claims maybe only by revelation


Makes claims. Just not to substance, not to something that exists out of the thought. Not as a requirement to be.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:21 pm

Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:The first thing an absolutely perfect being would entail is that he would have to exist, because if he didn't exist, he would be less than perfect. So an absolutely perfect being exists.


Again no disagreement there: a perfection can not entail any thing. , and not because It doesn't exist, but because It is invisible and indivisible.


That it entails that the being would have to exist is something, not nothing, so clearly we disagree.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Iambigious says:


"Now, either this absolutely perfect being popped into existence out of nothing at all or He/She/It has always existed.

Okay, how would those who believe one or the other go about demonstrating it beyond a "world of words" in which they just define and deduce and "think" this absolutely perfect being into existence? Or, if you're someone like MagsJ, you fall back on your "intrinsic self" to settle these things."

me no says:


" I see the point. To fall back is the issue, the context that this can be attempted as a minimal start ;

Roll back into the word of Word that began the inquiry, is beyond the scope of anyone alive since the beginning through now. So that is why we roll back to the context-vantage point of the sensible , albeit definitive struggle apparently proceeded from the opposition between the great believer Socrates/Plato and the Evil genius.

That earthshaking struggle still fixes the continuous conflict between those who think they see the light : the bible thumpers, and those who actually have gone through that confusing duplex.

The bible thumped are a misnomer really, since they really intend to take the word on face value, as THE WORD was meant to transmit in to the rolled back situation.

Before the second of particular interest, let's break OK?


Please, Mr. Sokal! Enough is enough!! #-o




As far as You're concerned. Something told me to start with what You consider to be of special interest. Could we begin with that? Are You still interested in my take on it?


Signed: me no sokol
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:53 pm

origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:The first thing an absolutely perfect being would entail is that he would have to exist, because if he didn't exist, he would be less than perfect. So an absolutely perfect being exists.


Again no disagreement there: a perfection can not entail any thing. , and not because It doesn't exist, but because It is invisible and indivisible.


That it entails that the being would have to exist is something, not nothing, so clearly we disagree.




Being does have to exist as something other than 'being in It's self' is true, but it's non existence may not be perceived/understood as for the other, may not necessarily be true fir the other.


So I understand You, even if You do not .


To no me is to love me no (t)?



"The way he put it, because the very idea of a perfect being is formulatable, the proposition must be considered. If there is an absolutely perfect being, what would that entail?"


how can a proposition be reducible to a formulation"


"To assert that conclusion if not absurd on it's face, it certainly leads to that conclusion"


And at this point saying who said this or what? Is totally UN necessary.


Jus'sayin'
Last edited by Meno_ on Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby MagsJ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:02 pm

origami wrote:Atheists can believe whatever they want, but in order to formulate an opinion on whether they believe in God or not, in order for the belief to exist or not, the thought of God has to precede it. Otherwise it would be an absurdity, they don't believe in, period. You cannot add "God," as in they don't believe in God, because that would have to mean that they considered God, which means they thought of God.

As much as I fully understand what you are stating here, I cannot agree.. the paradox ensues.. because your words continue to hold no weight, as the same can be said of dragons, or winged angels, or time travel..

Some believe in the notion of, say.. reincarnation, and others do not.. the word exists, and yet nothing is provable beyond the word ‘reincarnation'.

MagsJ wrote:There is no opinion to formulate on it for atheists, because there is [literally] nothing for atheists to think about in their mind.

This would be the case for someone that never knew religion, not for someone that rejected it.

Yes.. I had the former in mind, the latter would correspond with your thinking on the matter of this inquiry, and so make more sense of your statements of fact.

MagsJ wrote:Why are you surprised by that?

It seems a decidedly arbitrary thought to choose to dislike.

You say dislike, I’ll go with disbelieve.. there is proof of disbelief, but not of dislike.

MagsJ wrote:Leibniz defined god as “an absolutely perfect being”, and who thus knows what is best, always acts in the best way.

I wonder how he came to think (know?} that?

The way he put it, because the very idea of a perfect being is formulatable, the proposition must be considered. If there is an absolutely perfect being, what would that entail?

Re. the former.. it must?

Re. the latter.. benevolence ..as what good would the worlds’ ’figurehead' do without it.. hypothetically speaking.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:17 pm

MagsJ wrote:As much as I fully understand what you are stating here, I cannot agree.. the paradox ensues.. because your words continue to hold no weight, as the same can be said of dragons, or winged angels, or time travel..


There is no paradox. I am simply saying that atheists did think God, because they would have had to before they decided they don't believe in God.

MagsJ wrote: because your words continue to hold no weight, as the same can be said of dragons, or winged angels, or time travel..


Well, that's an interesting question, what can be said about dragons, winged angels or time travel?

MagsJ wrote:Yes.. I had the former in mind,


The former wouldn't be atheists. Atheism describes a position on God, namely, that the person so denominated rejects God. A-, against, Theo, God (possibly), -ism, of the school of.

MagsJ wrote:You say dislike, I’ll go with disbelieve..


I was referring specifically to dislike. I wasn't thinking disbelief and saying dislike. Many people dislike the thought God.

MagsJ wrote:Re. the former.. it must?


It must, in order to be perfect.

MagsJ wrote:Re. the latter.. benevolence ..as what good would the worlds’ ’figurehead' do without it.. hypothetically speaking.


Leibniz agrees.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:20 pm

Meno_ wrote:Being does have to exist as something other than 'being in It's self'


It doesn't even have to exist as that.

For anything to exist, it is enough that it exists. Patently. We know, because it exists.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:22 pm

So what if he does? He is perpetually rolled back toward this who never believed , and those who have been disaffected.

His disfigured head lacking comprehension has become obvious.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:23 pm

origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Being does have to exist as something other than 'being in It's self'


It doesn't even have to exist as that.

For anything to exist, it is enough that it exists. Patently. We know, because it exists.




True again but for those intent on believing it has to.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:25 pm

Meno_ wrote:So what if he does? He is perpetually rolled back toward this who never believed , and those who have been disaffected.

His disfigured head lacking comprehension has become obvious.


The opinions of whoever really have no effect on the existence of God.

Meno_ wrote:True again but for those intent on believing it has to.


Well, for them too. Unless they are confused, lying, or devoted to the path of absolute mockery known as nihilism. Importantly, the moment they take anything seriously, they are simply confused or lying again.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:27 pm

origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Being does have to exist as something other than 'being in It's self'


It doesn't even have to exist as that.

For anything to exist, it is enough that it exists. Patently. We know, because it exists.




Just thinking about the joker needing a joke to cover his smirk. Can anyone. cover for him?

Wonder where that came from


Don't waste your time thinking about that fir in real time it occured over 2 hours ago?


Can that go anywhere that far to prove anything about God's plans?


Now honestly.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:28 pm

origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:So what if he does? He is perpetually rolled back toward this who never believed , and those who have been disaffected.

His disfigured head lacking comprehension has become obvious.


The opinions of whoever really have no effect on the existence of God.

Meno_ wrote:True again but for those intent on believing it has to.


Well, for them too. Unless they are confused, lying, or devoted to the path of absolute mockery known as nihilism. Importantly, the moment they take anything seriously, they are simply confused or lying again.





Well that is exactly the evil genius intention. Well put.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:30 pm

This is why the last time I suggested a break, in an effort to get to the depth You required.

Certain limits may have arisen which previously were unattended to. Don't know.



'Really'
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:32 pm

The Joker kills anyone that witnesses a situation in which he requires cover. That is the entire premise of the character.

For, obviously, nihilism is impossible. If nothing else, you will have to take hunger seriously eventually, or yourself seriously enough to ignore the hunger and die from it.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:33 pm

Meno_ wrote:
origami wrote:
Meno_ wrote:So what if he does? He is perpetually rolled back toward this who never believed , and those who have been disaffected.

His disfigured head lacking comprehension has become obvious.


The opinions of whoever really have no effect on the existence of God.

Meno_ wrote:True again but for those intent on believing it has to.


Well, for them too. Unless they are confused, lying, or devoted to the path of absolute mockery known as nihilism. Importantly, the moment they take anything seriously, they are simply confused or lying again.





Well that is exactly the evil genius intention. Well put.


Genius requires seriousness.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:33 pm

Meno_ wrote:This is why the last time I suggested a break, in an effort to get to the depth You required.

Certain limits may have arisen which previously were unattended to. Don't know.



'Really'


If you need a breath, just take it. You don't need to be asking me for permission.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:41 pm

A good joke would be to convince everyone that you are a nihilist when you are not. But that wouldn't constitute nihilism, just good humour.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby origami » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:49 pm

origami wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Re. the latter.. benevolence ..as what good would the worlds’ ’figurehead' do without it.. hypothetically speaking.


Leibniz agrees.


What would constitute benevolence on the scale of a perfect being would be a different matter, and possibly a much more interesting one.
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Re: something from nothing or always something 3 'acts' 1st

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:49 pm

Being back and despite whatever, need to throw in something different. I went swimming and while underwater for a spell something occured to me as somewhat relatable.

Let's just say re-late-able.

Well it's really off the table of the wall.




So it is a sequentially associated series of words toward accession to THE WORD if an all conceivable.

(If not, call me nuts or ask me the cease of desist)


Universals (A)

Wittgenstein family of resemblances
Toward increasing meaninglessness
sign of ( not off)
Congruence with deconstruction
Limiting with both:
1 entangled uncertainty
2 reduction of both;
a phenomena
b(a) Phenomena or exceptional image's occurrence
3 1 to many ( unlike one too(2) many

Universals (B)

1 in the beginning was the sea( see)

2 now this is where it gets screwy ~

3 from the seesaw emerges a unique one cell organism

4 it's alone and might say lonely


5 it De develops sea-ing through one eye

6 it divides into 2 cells

7 that division causes the other to learn how it's done(symbiosis ~ >

8 then that goes on and on noonday knows really how long for(4)


9 then then then .then after a humanoid form's BH it's self through it's self and for it's self



10 then somehow the assumed higher selves as they break through pre-established certain limits, ads able to break through those limits and dig deep and surgically remove a different man from the other's body ( 7th rib)


11 but this one is receptive, not projective. It can contain the projected denials from some power which gets it's messaged from the beyond sat limit of certainty, and develops that power to the hilt, where projections of the original 1 eyed cell can be received into, and nurised by it.

12 then , the idea of the abthropomorphy of ideation transcends the bounds of it's images kinked ideal association of transcending the pleasures principle to coincided with the original miracle come through this circle of fire( the bush); and the idea of receptivity gets formed through this androgynous initial confusion, but after a short time such become coextensively anesthetized by aesthetic appeal.

13 so the idea is reformed ex-cathedra ( Michel -angelo) and only the father and the son can understand it.

14 the rest(Buddhist posture stranding erect, the project becomes a spirited substance of an admixture , a hermetic concoction - the whole of the bacchic spirit consumed at a Greek dyanastic gorge.

15* that in itself calls for an appropriate mask, so that the trial of Socrates could be adequitely expressed, and thus the gynecology of successive theater be not dumped back into the one that Prometheus had to suffer through.




*and that is only up to 15 criteria of the above and below depth that 4bids that fruit to be plucked from the garden

15= 1+5= 6
Where 4-5-6 are guarded pro ir/ and con by fudogs(masked serpents) that the joker came up with to guard the moat which guard sleeping beauty(
Last edited by Meno_ on Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: something from nothing or always something 2nd part

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:11 pm

t.the joker had to take up the slack, otherwise the play would have failed miserably, as it almost did did tragically before it even was burn. The evil of genius had to masquerade as the evil genius, in order to sustain the magical ingredients in the necessary take, keeping audiences alert to a possible sign , that may come through, and the Romance cane through, but not without a morally justified narrative that offered a way to bargain out of a faustian 'deal'.

I wknt go into the fall and the forbidden apple?, onle in deference to a much later take if sleepless beauty, and HDR redemption through the joker a made up foo dog, who was really the serpent guarding the moat which protecting the castle she was assumed to be sleeping in a transparent casket.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:40 pm

Meno_ wrote:
As far as You're concerned. Something told me to start with what You consider to be of special interest. Could we begin with that? Are You still interested in my take on it?


No thanks, Mr. Sokal. The damage has already been done. Besides, this thread has already been submerged by whoever among us has created this "origami" character.

Her, maybe?

Or...lorikeet?!!

:-k
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Re: something from nothing or always something 3rd part

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:44 pm

The final part to this 'bromance' is:


Can the see devolve to an absurd deep level where it's contend guarded-bracketed-contextual epoch- epoche go down below the organic simplex, by even that 1 eye(i) removed, it can remember where it has been and what it took to develop that vision?

And will that recollection guaranty innumerable returns to that status qui?

That is the reason for stopping at 6 and leaving the 7th at this juncture.

The rest may be full-filled on further evolved revelations. (Which a far future cyborg may be qualified to answer.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:45 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
As far as You're concerned. Something told me to start with what You consider to be of special interest. Could we begin with that? Are You still interested in my take on it?


No thanks, Mr. Sokal. The damage has already been done. Besides, this thread has already been submerged by whoever among us has created this "origami" character.

Her, maybe?

Or...lorikeet?!!

:-k




I see Your point. But can't exactly see eye to eye on identifying the probable source.
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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:51 pm

Meno_ wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
As far as You're concerned. Something told me to start with what You consider to be of special interest. Could we begin with that? Are You still interested in my take on it?


No thanks, Mr. Sokal. The damage has already been done. Besides, this thread has already been submerged by whoever among us has created this "origami" character.

Her, maybe?

Or...lorikeet?!!

:-k




I see Your point. But can't exactly see eye to eye on identifying the probable source.


After all, for all you know, Mr. Sokal, it might even be Meno. :shock:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

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Re: something from nothing or always something

Postby Meno_ » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:58 pm

That would require resources not yet available to me2know.
For that reason alone I was tempted to change my reel name2AI.


But, resisted that urge as quite redundant and totally absurd.

As of yet.
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