ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:53 pm

iambiguous wrote:Can you believe these two clowns?!!! :lol:


I think it’s my curse to spend my life with a world of retards, including you.

Care to describe why I’m a clown?

Oh. That’s right. You can’t debate people because you don’t fundamentally exist.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:15 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
I think it’s my curse to spend my life with a world of retards, including you.

Care to describe why I’m a clown?

Oh. That’s right. You can’t debate people because you don’t fundamentally exist.


Come on, ILP, once a respectable philosophy forum has, on thread after thread after thread, been reduced down to exchanges between you and your ilk.

Intriguing, thought-provoking philosophical exchanges are now aborted over and again when the thread is configured into just another rendition of The Corner.

If I do say so myself.

It's your forum now. I tried to help you grasp that, in many important respects, you are not exactly in touch with, among other things, reality.

The rest is up to you.

Well, and Carleas...if ILP still means anything at all to him.




Note to others:

As always, this reflects but my own "rooted existentially in dasein, subjective opinion." For all I know, Ecmandu may really be in touch with God and the Devil and Death and Buddha. And it may be perfectly reasonable to turn a thread devoted to overturning Roe into whatever these clowns -- my word -- are babbling on and on about.

Right?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:08 pm

What are “your” ilk, “iambiguous”?

I case you forgot, “your” ilk don’t exist.

I find it funny that someone recently trolled that they admire “you” because “you’re” the only person who knows who “you” are.

“You’re” coming at me with this bullshit “iambiguous”?

I have a job to do. If I need to push others aside to complete it, that’s my prerogative, not yours.

Complain about this:

My job is to give everyone they want forever at the expense of nobody... forever.

The problem I’m solving is “hey, I don’t want this to be happening to me...”. For everyone. Forever.

Do you think I enjoy this shit?

Living in a universe of retards like you?

Do you have any clue how much power a being like me actually has in your zero sum world?

Backed by an infinite number of beings brought out of their infinite heavens... to listen to a retard like you?

You really do not understand what’s happening right now.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:33 pm

Ecmandu wrote:What are “your” ilk, iambiguous?

I case you forgot, “your” ilk don’t exist.

I find it funny that someone recently trolled that they admire “you” because “you’re” the only person who knows who “you” are.

“You’re” coming at me with this bullshit “iambiguous”?

I have a job to do. If I need to push others aside to complete it, that’s my prerogative, not yours.

Complain about this:

My job is to give everyone they want forever at the expense of nobody... forever.

The problem I’m solving is “hey, I don’t want this to be happening to me...”. For everyone. Forever.

Do you think I enjoy this shit?

Living in a universe of retards like you?

Do you have any clue how much power a being like me actually has in your zero sum world?

Backed by an infinite number of beings brought out of their infinite heavens... to listen to a retard like you?

You really do not understand what’s happening right now.


Like I said, it's their forum now.

I can only pray to God for a miracle that somehow ILP is...saved.

And, sure, who is to say that it's not her God?

Or even Alan Sokal's God.



Okay, here goes...

"God, if You do exist, please save ILP from the Kids, the pinheads, the fulminating fanatic objectivists, the social media mentality and all the rest who have virtually destroyed what used to be one of the best philosophy forums on the internet."





Note to Carleas:

Hint, hint.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:38 pm

“You” think “you” are the “definition” of the “golden days” of “philosophy”?

You mock yourself with every post.

Of course, if “you” aren’t there, “you” can’t be a “fulminating fanatic”, but neither can I.

You defeat yourself with every post you make.

Iambiguous. This is out of your hands.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:12 pm

From PN:


henry quirk wrote:
Woman may want to become mothers someday. Just not here and now.


Hey, they can just as easily after a tubal ligation as they can after abortion, with roughly the same kinds of risks.


Let me try to understand what you are suggesting here.

A woman wants to become a mother, but given the circumstances in her life, not now. So, knowing that birth control is not always 100% effective, or the possibility that she might be raped, she should get an operation to prevent a pregnancy. Then, when she wants to become pregnant, get the operation reversed?

Okay, what if during the pregnancy that she does want, circumstances dramatically change in her life and she no longer wants it. Too bad? If she has an abortion then it is perfectly reasonable to charge her with first degree premeditated murder? Or if she has the baby and then decides to hold off on her next child, get the operation again? Repeat as necessary until menopause,

So, if they practice birth control until the time is right but become pregnant anyway, of course, force them to give birth.


henry quirk wrote: I never said that.


Okay, what would the henry quirk legislation either prescribe or proscribe here for these women?

You wouldn't have to hold charging him with first degree murder over his head. No way. He'd give birth because it's simply the right thing to do.


henry quirk wrote: If I got preggers: you better believe I'd deliver. A man (actual, not a tyranny) who conceives and gives birth? I'd be friggin' famous!


And, indeed, if men could be become pregnant there is not a single one of them who would ever have an abortion. They may not have intended to become pregnant. Or becoming pregnant might scramble their education or their employment. Or they might have been raped. Or giving birth might do grievous harm to their mental and physical health. But as for Gloria Steinem's suggestion that, "if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament", that's just a bunch of twaddle?

After all, given that God Himself provided you with the innate capacity to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature", you know that abortion is strictly taboo.

On the other hand, oddly enough, you don't know what having the innate capacity to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature" has to do with tubal ligation and vasectomy. Did your Deist God provide you with a list of things that is and is not applicable to?

As for killing the baby, trust him. It's not ever just a "clump of cells" as some insist. No, from the point of conception on, the unborn are full-fledged human beings.


henry quirk wrote: Probably more like from the end of the first trimester on.


Probably? Who would have ever suspected that following the dictates of Reason and Nature might only take you to things that are probably true. So, during the first trimester there is a probability that the unborn are just a "clump of cells"? And all those anti-abortionists who insist human life begins at conception are probably wrong?

On the other hand, who among us on this side of the womb ever was born without first having gone through that first trimester?

Indeed, for some that is the tragedy of abortion. They agree that human life begins at conception. And that all abortions are the taking of innocent human life. But they recognize the "rival goods" here. That, if women are forced to give birth, there is no way they can ever truly be the equal of men who can never become pregnant. Men, whose lives can never be adversely changed or even destroyed if forced to give birth.

And, hopefully, their beliefs would be considerably more sophisticated than yours.

[and henry quirk]

After all, above all else, I am hoping that someday someone will convince me [at least] take another leap of faith to God. To immortality and salvation.

And I'm not like those here who preach the gospel of atheism by insisting there is no God. Given the profound mystery that is existence itself, of course the explanation might be God. I want there to be one. I want there to be a loving, just and merciful explanation for things like this:

"...the endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages."

I want to believe something other than that my life is essentially -- teleologically -- meaningless and purposeless. And that, soon enough, "I" will tumble over into the abyss that is oblivion.


henry quirk wrote: ...then I won't waste my time (your supposed existential crisis ain't my problem).


My existential crises?

Trust me: hundreds and hundreds of millions around the globe are trying to connect the dots existentially between morality here and now and immortality and salvation there and then. IC is preoccupied with both sides while you are content to preach your own objectivist dogmas on this side of the grave.

Though, sure, don't waste your time with arguments like mine. Indeed, what if some day my points really do begin to sink in...and your arrogant, authoritarian dictums begin to crumble as my own once did?

This part, henry: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:41 pm

From PN:

henry quirk wrote:Obviously, for you, abortion is about sumthin' other than reproductive control/rights/freedom.


No, what abortion is always about is this: a woman [and only a woman] gets pregnant and does not want to be pregnant. For any number of personal reasons rooted in the life that she [and only she] lives. Then the part where squabbles erupt over when human life actually begins. And then the part where there are conflicting reactions to how the pregnancy occurred...defective birth control device, rape, incest. Then the part where things change in the woman's life prompting her to change her mind about the pregnancy. Then the part where to abort or not to abort becomes deeply embedded in the woman's mental health. Or in her physical health.

Then the part where in some states [or in some entire nations] none of that complex "existential stuff" matters. If a woman gets pregnant [whatever the circumstances] she must give birth. Or be charged with first degree premeditated murder.

Reproductive control is obviously an important component of the debate. If the state can seize control of it and force woman to give birth, what does that tell you about the gap between men and women in regard to social, political and economic equality?

In my view, only a fool, a misogynist, or an advocate of patriarchy would not acknowledge the "for all practical purposes" consequences of forcing women to give birth.

As for tubal ligation and vasectomy, I made my arguments above. Others can decide for themselves whether henry addressed my points intelligently...or just wiggled out of responding altogether. Content instead [as always] with sticking to his "your option is to think like I do about these things or you are necessarily wrong" mentality of the hardcore moral and political objectivists.

Again, he can't/won't even recognize the extent to which the "psychology of objectivism" propels his authoritarian dogmas here.

Not only that but he requires the existence of a God, the God in order [ultimately] to anchor his convictions. God created him in order that he "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature".

Though, again, I suspect that henry will actually dare this God not to follow his own mere mortal dictates!!

His thinking here is so utterly weak, in my view, he requires a "transcending font" in order to anchor his precious Self to something that comforts and consoles him. I knew there was a God in there somewhere! It's just that he's torn between the Deist God and himself as this transcending font.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:43 pm

_
ROE.. an EU perspective

____
EU Bishops oppose adding abortion to EU charter of fundamental rights

The Bishops of the European Union urge the European Parliament not to enter into the abortion debate in the United States, which they say lies outside its competence, and invite the EU to work towards more unity among Europeans.

By Vatican News staffs reporter

The Bishops of the European Union have expressed regret over the adoption of a new resolution on abortion by the European Parliament on Thursday.

In a statement released on Friday, COMECE said the resolution entitled “US Supreme Court decision to overturn abortion rights in the United States and the need to safeguard abortion rights and Women’s health in the EU” paves the way for “a deviation from universally recognized human rights and misrepresents the tragedy of abortion for mothers in difficulties.”

"We must work for more unity among Europeans, not to create higher ideological barriers and polarization," urged the statement signed by Fr. Manuel Barrios Prieto, General Secretary of the Commission of Bishops Conferences of the EU (COMECE).

Radical agendas endanger fundamental rights
Regarding the resolution, the bishops urge the European Parliament not to enter into an area such as abortion, which is out of its competence, nor interfere in the internal affairs of democratic EU or non-EU countries.

COMECE further warns the European Parliament that promoting radical political agendas “endangers fundamental rights, including freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, and damages social cohesion.”

More so, the bishops caution that the prioritization of the inclusion of abortion in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU, “may seriously endanger the chances of such reform process, while intensifying confrontations among our fellow citizens and between the Member States."

In June 2022, COMECE released another declaration in view of the European Parliament discussion on the leaked draft opinion of the US Supreme Court concerning abortion
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:54 pm

iambiguous wrote:a woman [and only a woman] gets pregnant and does not want to be pregnant.

I always thought it was a family that got pregnant.

But I guess to you commies, families don't exist.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:38 pm

Maureen Dowd in the NYT

The liberal argument:

GALWAY, Ireland — I came to Ireland four years ago to cover the searing story of the Scarlet Letter in the Emerald Isle.

Back then, Ireland had a harsh abortion law, shaped by the views of the Catholic Church. The Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution, added in 1983, gave fetuses rights equal to the mother’s, ensuring abortion would be illegal, even in cases of rape or incest. Anyone getting the procedure or buying abortion pills online faced up to 14 years in prison. Women were forced to sneak out of the country and go to London if they wanted abortions. Some women went to loan sharks to get the money to travel.

In 2018, a referendum on repealing the Eighth Amendment roiled Ireland with turbulent arguments on a subject that had been subterranean for eons. Edna O’Brien captured the tortured drama in her novel “Down by the River,” based on the sensational 1992 case of a 14-year-old who was raped by a friend’s father and became suicidal when she was barred from leaving the country to get an abortion. She later miscarried.

There was also the heart-wrenching 2012 story of Savita Halappanavar, who rushed to a Galway hospital in distress the day after her baby shower. She was told that her 17-week-old fetus was going to die. As she went into septic shock, she begged the medical team to remove the fetus and save her life. One midwife coldly reminded her that she was in “a Catholic country.” She died after her stillborn infant. The horror of that case galvanized the Emerald Isle.

I felt grateful as I covered the referendum, which passed resoundingly, that I lived in a more enlightened America, which had long had the protection of Roe.

Now I am back and stunned that Ireland and the United States have traded places. Ireland leaped into modernity, rejecting religious reactionaries’ insistence on controlling women’s bodies. America lurched backward, ruled by religious reactionaries’ insistence on controlling women’s bodies.

Once, Ireland seemed obsessed with punishing women. Now it’s America.




And this is more or less in line with my own "rooted existentially in dasein" political prejudices.

On the other hand, there are those who do not base their opposition to abortion on Catholic/religious dogmas/convictions. They simply believe that a human life begins at conception, and that aborting it constitutes the taking of this human life. That's why it ought to be a crime to do so.

Some of course argue this is not the case. Human life begins somewhere else along the biological sojourn from conception to birth. Some even argue that a newborn baby itself is not really a human being as you and I are.

Me? Again, I think that those on both ends of moral and political spectrum make reasonable arguments. That's the source of my own "fractured and fragmented" frame of mind. Their right from their side, we're right from ours.

The brutal reality of living in a No God world where there is no omniscient/omnipotent font to finally resolve conflagrations like this once and for all.

That's why so many here think themselves into believing that there is one. Ever and always their own of course.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:39 am

-
The decision had nothing to do with whether abortion is good or bad - nor did it mandate either position.

The decision merely stated the fact that SCOTUS does not have the authority to mandate abortion issues - in any direction for any reason.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:56 am

obsrvr524 wrote:The decision had nothing to do with whether abortion is good or bad - nor did it mandate either position.

The decision merely stated the fact that SCOTUS does not have the authority to mandate abortion issues - in any direction for any reason.

See how they twist and weaponise everything, to suit their 'divisive' cause.

I have no time for such discussions, with They.. they can bore off.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:01 am

obsrvr524 wrote:-
The decision had nothing to do with whether abortion is good or bad - nor did it mandate either position.

The decision merely stated the fact that SCOTUS does not have the authority to mandate abortion issues - in any direction for any reason.


Sounds like you are in denial.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:23 pm

Sculptor wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:The decision had nothing to do with whether abortion is good or bad - nor did it mandate either position.

The decision merely stated the fact that SCOTUS does not have the authority to mandate abortion issues - in any direction for any reason.

Sounds like you are in denial.

The Vatican confirmed that, as fact.. but they -do not want themselves to/urged the EU not to- get involved in a legislation that has no bearing on them.. for they have their own, which is fit for [their] purpose.

Kropotkin and Reasonable stated that there was no profit to be made, in abortion clinics.. but they omitted to mention the (mad) profit to be made, off the carcasses of those aborted foetuses, in the form of stem cells and other such pertinent parts.

I’m not anti-abortion, but not as a form of contraception =; there’s easier/less-traumatic options, for that.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby MagsJ » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:47 am

_
ROE versus Wade: animal kingdom edition.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: ROE overturned.. a bad day in America

Postby iambiguous » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:38 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/us/a ... erson.html

Kate Zernike
Published Aug. 21, 2022 in the NYT

'Even as roughly half the states have moved to enact near-total bans on abortion since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in June, anti-abortion activists are pushing for a long-held and more absolute goal: laws that grant fetuses the same legal rights and protections as any person.

So-called fetal personhood laws would make abortion murder, ruling out all or most of the exceptions for abortion allowed in states that already ban it. So long as Roe established a constitutional right to abortion, such laws remained symbolic in the few states that managed to pass them. Now they are starting to have practical effect. Already in Georgia, a fetus now qualifies for tax credits and child support, and is to be included in population counts and redistricting.'


Now we get down to the nitty-gritty of a post-Roe world.

If the fetus is a person and aborting it is murder, then thousands upon thousand of women may well be arrested, charged with premeditated first degree murder and, if found guilty, sent to death row in some states.

Same for those who perform the abortions.

And if it is a woman that you know and love...so be it?

Practiced safe sex but the contraception failed? No exception.

Gang raped and made pregnant? No exception. Raped and impregnated by a brother or a father? No exception. Mental health imperiled if forced to give birth? No exception. Physical health imperiled if forced to give birth? No exception.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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iambiguous
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