church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:09 pm

MagsJ: I think it’s to do with a need of being a part of the Community and of Community spirit, which is once again easier to achieve.. now that the illegal immigrants and fake refugees have left our towns and cities and country, due to the lack of being in-receipt of benefits."

K: I am sure this is exactly what Jesus was all about, denying "illegal immigrants
and fake refugees" due to the lack of "being in receipt of benefits"

never mind that at one point, Jesus was a refugee, he must have been a
"fake refugee" you know because that happens all the time and we must surely
follow the "Christian" path and deny and refuse anyone in need of charity...well,
because when Jesus said to "love they neighbors" he clearly didn't mean
"illegal immigrants" or "fake refugees".. why love that scum?.. they are people
of color and who gives a shit about them.. clearly not MagJ....and before you comment
how you are a person of color, you should remember that when talking about
"illegal immigrants" and "fake refugees"......and recall that your family is not originally
from the UK.....as my family immigrated from Ireland and the UK...as everyone comes
from somewhere else.....without being a "fake refugee"....

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
phyllo wrote:I think that one "problem" with Christianity is that God and Jesus are portrayed as perfect. Then Christians are asked to use them as a standard to strive for. It's effectively an impossible standard.

But maybe that's just me.


Christianity acknowledges that the standard is too high to be fulfilled by mere flesh and blood humans and asserts that it requires the power of God who both set the standard and fulfills it in and through people.
Yeah, I find that problematic as well.


That's not surprising. The proposition is problematic from every standpoint except that of faith in God. Nevertheless, it defines salvation by grace according to Christianity.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:21 pm

Surely you can't have faith in God unless you get it by the grace of God.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby Sculptor » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:34 pm

felix dakat wrote:That's not surprising. The proposition is problematic from every standpoint except that of faith in God. Nevertheless, it defines salvation by grace according to Christianity.


I read that twice and it still does not make sense.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby Sculptor » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:35 pm

phyllo wrote:Surely you can't have faith in God unless you get it by the grace of God.


God has made me such that my skepticism means I am an atheist.
He obviously did not intend for me a place in heaven, but made in me a candidate for hell.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:10 pm

phyllo wrote:Surely you can't have faith in God unless you get it by the grace of God.


Yeah, it's a circle--a paradox.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:39 pm

More than circular or paradoxical ... heaven, hell, reward, punishment, virtue, sin ... don't make any sense if God is doing everything.

Even Jesus coming to retrieve the "lost lambs" is nonsensical.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:53 pm

phyllo wrote:More than circular or paradoxical ... heaven, hell, reward, punishment, virtue, sin ... don't make any sense if God is doing everything.

Even Jesus coming to retrieve the "lost lambs" is nonsensical.


You're standing outside a worldview in which those things do make sense. Although I don't know your worldview, I suspect it might not "make sense" looked at from inside that worldview.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:43 pm

It's not like just anything goes. There has to be some minimum amount of logical consistency.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:49 pm

phyllo wrote:It's not like just anything goes. There has to be some minimum amount of logical consistency.


Why?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby MagsJ » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:38 am

felix dakat wrote:
phyllo wrote:It's not like just anything goes. There has to be some minimum amount of logical consistency.


Why?

Why not?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:26 am

MagsJ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
phyllo wrote:It's not like just anything goes. There has to be some minimum amount of logical consistency.


Why?

Why not?


Some of the greatest logicians in the history of Western civilization including Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas, Alfred North Whitehead, William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, Alvin Plantinga and numerous others have supported the Christian vision with thorough-going systematic logical arguments. Who here has read all of them let alone refuted their arguments?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:55 pm

Some of the greatest logicians in the history of Western civilization including Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas, Alfred North Whitehead, William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, Alvin Plantinga and numerous others have supported the Christian vision with thorough-going systematic logical arguments. Who here has read all of them let alone refuted their arguments?
So are you now saying that it(specifically grace) is logically consistent because of the arguments of these logicians?

Your previous "Why?" answer seemed to suggest that it does not need to be logically consistent.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:46 pm

phyllo wrote:
Some of the greatest logicians in the history of Western civilization including Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas, Alfred North Whitehead, William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, Alvin Plantinga and numerous others have supported the Christian vision with thorough-going systematic logical arguments. Who here has read all of them let alone refuted their arguments?
So are you now saying that it(specifically grace) is logically consistent because of the arguments of these logicians?

Your previous "Why?" answer seemed to suggest that it does not need to be logically consistent.


I'm saying there is plenty of logical support for a Christian vision if a minimum amount of logical consistency is what you require.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:37 pm

I'm saying there is plenty of logical support for a Christian vision if a minimum amount of logical consistency is what you require.
Okay. Maybe I disagree with them about what "minimum" means.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:57 pm

phyllo wrote:
I'm saying there is plenty of logical support for a Christian vision if a minimum amount of logical consistency is what you require.
Okay. Maybe I disagree with them about what "minimum" means.


Faith doesn't come through logic. Or at least not through logic in a narrow technical sense of the word.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:38 pm

Faith can't be incompatible with logic. That would mean that God is illogical. (And unreasonable and irrational.)

Why would God create humans with the ability to reason and then expect them not to reason when it comes to questions about God?
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:39 pm

phyllo wrote:Faith can't be incompatible with logic. That would mean that God is illogical. (And unreasonable and irrational.)

Why would God create humans with the ability to reason and then expect them not to reason when it comes to questions about God?


It isn't that logic is incompatible with faith. I pointed to a few of the logicians who stood in faith. It's that where we stand in or out of faith is not something that we reason ourselves to using logic in the narrow technical sense of the word. Where we stand in our consciousness is in the first place phenomenologic not formal logic. And that consciousness is affected factically by our historicity.

You for example have some interpretation of what Christianity means according to what you've read or been taught or exposed to somehow. Do you suppose that you have exhaustive knowledge of Christianity and all the multifarious interpretations and ways and viewpoints from which it can be understood? You have an understanding. Do you believe it's adequate to the subject at hand which is Ultimate Reality?

Now Job is an archetype of the man of faith. When he was struck with tragedy and suffering he couldn't understand why. He didn't have an adequate theological understanding or answer to the problem of evil that had beset him existentially. But he stood in faith and waited for God.

So a person standing outside of a faith may be satisfied with their understanding of it. But if a person standing on the inside recognizes that their understanding is inadequate, they will seek a better understanding. If anyone thinks they have the ultimate understanding they are self-deceived.

As the mystics of every religion have understood the transcendent is beyond thought. So whatever understanding we have of it is at best a pragmatic/metaphoric/symbolic approximation.

The best things can't be said and the second best are misunderstood. That's because the second best are using the objects of time and space to refer to Transcendence. And so they are always misunderstood by being interpreted in terms of time and space. The third best is conversation.

So here we're conversing, trying to use the second best in order to talk about the first. Hopefully we do this in recognition that, as the Tao Te Ching says, the Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:18 pm

You for example have some interpretation of what Christianity means according to what you've read or been taught or exposed to somehow. Do you suppose that you have exhaustive knowledge of Christianity and all the multifarious interpretations and ways and viewpoints from which it can be understood? You have an understanding. Do you believe it's adequate to the subject at hand which is Ultimate Reality?
You have bring me into it.

Why am I ignorant or arrogant or whatever you think I am, when I state some opinions?
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Re: church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:20 pm

phyllo wrote:
You for example have some interpretation of what Christianity means according to what you've read or been taught or exposed to somehow. Do you suppose that you have exhaustive knowledge of Christianity and all the multifarious interpretations and ways and viewpoints from which it can be understood? You have an understanding. Do you believe it's adequate to the subject at hand which is Ultimate Reality?
You have bring me into it.

Why am I ignorant or arrogant or whatever you think I am, when I state some opinions?


No, I don't think you're ignorant or arrogant. I'm just asking questions too--wondering where you stand and how you hold your position.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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