The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

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The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 8:49 am

From almost the very first years that a Christian emperor had ruled in Rome in AD 312, liberties had begun to be eroded. And then, in AD 529, a final blow had fallen. It was decreed that all those who laboured ‘under the insanity of paganism’ – in other words Damascius and his fellow philosophers – would no longer be allowed to teach. There was worse. It was also announced that anyone who had not yet been baptized was to come forward and make themselves known at the ‘holy churches’ immediately, or face exile. And if anyone allowed themselves to be baptized, then slipped back into their old pagan ways, they would be executed.

Nixey, Catherine. The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World . Pan Macmillan. Kindle-Version.


I was reading about the influence of Greek culture on the Christian Church and came across the fact that during the fourth and fifth centuries AD, the Christians went about eradicating traditional Greek influence (the classics). We tend to think that, because the classics were so much of higher education, there was quite a lot of it around. The fact is, that scholars calculate that only about 1% has survived (and that is being driven out of our universities). We know this by references made by that which is left and the Christian writings which rebutted them. I was surprised to read that the ancient Greek medical texts haven’t been translated into English because the dual competencies of medicine and classical Greek studies haven’t combined to do that. This means that we know far less about the knowledge of the time in which modern society was forming than we thought, and the church had seen to it, that it retained the upper hand until the enlightenment. What the Church deemed unfit, we never got to see. It is surprising how much has been weaned from the little we have, but the great philosophers like Plato wrote far more than we have today. Perhaps the Vatican Secret Archive contains some unknown cultural artefacts, but I’m sure people have looked into that. The thing that interested me is what was in circulation amongst the educated before Christ, who they say, brought a new era.

When you consider Epicurus (c. 341-270 BCE) even though he is believed to have written 300 works, almost none of his writings are known to have survived. He is one of the youngest philosophers, and obviously a thorn in the eye of Christianity. Going further back to Aristotle (c. 384-322 BCE) who was a student of Plato and the teacher of Alexander the Great, Aristotle is considered one of the world’s greatest ancient philosophers. Aristotle studied a wide variety of subjects, including science, ethics, government, physics and politics, and wrote extensively on them. Although a few books of his were translated back then, the “Restoration of Aristotle” was conducted centuries later.

Probably the most important philosopher Plato (c. 428-348 BCE), famously said, “We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” In the first century AD, Thrasyllus of Mendes had compiled and published the works of Plato in the original Greek, both genuine and spurious. While it has not survived to the present day, all the existing medieval Greek manuscripts are based on his edition. Without Plato, we wouldn’t have known about Socrates (c. 469-399 BCE), who’s legendary trial and death at the altar of the ancient Greek democratic system has influenced the academic view of philosophy as a study of life itself.

Democritus (c. 460-370 BCE) said, “Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion” and was called the “laughing philosopher”. He was one of the first advocates of democracy, equality and liberty. He was also the first person, along with his mentor Leucippus, to advance the hypothesis that all matter is composed of small invisible particles called atoms. Many consider Democritus to be the "father of modern science”.

Today Democritus’s most famous theory is his atomism. What did the other theories state? We have no idea: every single one of his works was lost in the ensuing centuries. As the eminent physicist Carlo Rovelli recently wrote, after citing an even longer list of the philosopher’s titles: ‘the loss of the works of Democritus in their entirety is the greatest intellectual tragedy to ensue from the collapse of the old classical civilisation’.

Nixey, Catherine. The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World (S.37). Pan Macmillan. Kindle-Version.


These few examples of ancient Philosophy show just how far these people were, and even if it was only amongst relatively few educated people, they had a say in the developments of society. But they were outlawed in the fourth and fifth century and open discussion was no longer allowed. People were only to talk about Christian ideas and neighbours were to denounce those people who didn’t comply. Laws were passed that gave people the freedom to desecrate Temples, which they obviously did. This has a particularly modern touch about it, considering the last 500 or so years. Luther didn’t do much to sustain the cohesion of the church. Since his intervention, the church has continually split into ever more separate churches, despite having the same creed. Greek philosophers in the first centuries mused that Christians, despite having one God, seemed to be very aggressive towards each other. That hasn’t changed, despite the social appearance of local parishes with their jumbo sales and tea-parties.

I knew that the story of Christianity wasn’t smooth, which I could gather from a book on Christian history that I have, but the effect of Greek and Roman society was devastating. It also threw us back and marked the beginning of the dark ages. There still were people trying to further knowledge of course, but they had to have the permission of the church to spread their findings. This is why it was such a liberation when the Enlightenment came along. The oppressive nature of church ruling shouldn’t hide the fact that it was in itself a motor of learning, but it restricted the development of science. Once free of that, the Enlightenment has improved lives progressively up until today. The disadvantage of the development is that people have lost the source of meaning in its widest sense and fall back on themselves to find meaning, which in certain circumstances is difficult. In poverty, people have at least had their faith in many cases, and the church was influential in caring for the sick. Of course, it isn’t so simple to take apart, but it seems that the church was its own worst enemy.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 9:40 am

Lol. If you think this is big, wait until your autistic son shows you the Jews did 9/11 to claim insurance
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 10:19 am

Within a 300-year history, Christianity has experienced a breathtaking development: from a small Jewish sect it has become the state religion. Persecution and slander are now followed by a rapid development into freedom, but also new dependencies and constraints. For a minority religion has become not only a popular but also a state church. This change brings drastic changes for the church's self-understanding and for ancient society.

Attack on paganism: For some Christians, state tolerance of their religion was not enough. In 347, the Roman senator Firmicus Maternus, a highly respected rhetor, calls on the emperors to eradicate paganism. "So that the ghastly error of pagan presumption may no longer stain the Roman world," Firmicus urges the emperors Constantius II and Constans to cut pagan practices "to the root, eradicate and put an end to them ... by your legal decree held in the very harshest tone." As proof of "divine virtue", the pagan temples were to be destroyed, statues of the gods melted down and the "monstrous crimes of idolatry" harshly prosecuted.

The demands are in line with the imperial religious policy: Constantius II has temples closed and removes cult altars from his palace in 357. The Christian mob is also mobilized: In Asia Minor and Syria, Christians desecrate and destroy temples and statues of the gods.

Chronicle of Christianity © Chronik Verlag im Bertelsmann Lexikon Verlag GmbH, Gütersloh/ Munich 1997 Page 57

This curiously doesn't address the other areas where Christianity went to town, namely in the burning of books. Also on Wikipedia, the entry is quite tame:
Theodosius I: He issued decrees that effectively made Nicene Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire, including the Edict of Thessalonica. He dissolved the order of the Vestal Virgins in Rome's Temple of Vesta. In 393, he banned the pagan rituals of the Olympic Games. His decrees made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire and punished Roman paganism, Hellenistic religion, and Arianism. He neither prevented nor punished the destruction of prominent Hellenistic temples of classical antiquity, including the Temple of Apollo in Delphi and the Serapeum in Alexandria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 11:01 am

Dullard, stop PMing me and explain to me how did Christians destroy the Ancient Greek civilization if they only appeared at the end of the Roman civilization? And why stop at only Romans and Greeks???why not go add Jainism, Manichaeism, European Heathenism in its tenfold manifestations and types, Zoroastrianism, Mesopotamian culture, Judaism, Islam and so on to the list??? are you some kind of spokesperson for the human rights of Ancient Greeks and Romans??? and tell me...how did Ancient Greeks treat females???
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 11:12 am

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Dullard, stop PMing me and explain to me how did Christians destroy the Ancient Greek civilization if they only appeared at the end of the Roman civilization? And why stop at only Romans and Greeks???why not go add Jainism, Manichaeism, European Heathenism in its tenfold manifestations and types, Zoroastrianism, Mesopotamian culture, Judaism, Islam and so on to the list??? are you some kind of spokesperson for the human rights of Ancient Greeks and Romans??? and tell me...how did Ancient Greeks treat females???

The subject is a result of my reading: Nixey, Catherine. The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World . Pan Macmillan. Kindle-Version.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 11:19 am

Nice piece of ass, I'd definitely take her from the back and slip the condom off at some point.
Lets take a look at Wikipedia:
e Darkening Age was chosen as one of The New York Times' "Notable Books" for 2018 and was listed on "book of the year" lists by The Telegraph, The Spectator, The Observer, and BBC History.[4]

Among scholars
Peter Thonemann, a professor of ancient history at the University of Oxford, argues that Nixey's work is problematic, and that "the argument depends on quite a bit of nifty footwork", because Nixey makes a large number of broad generalizations based on limited evidence. He also states that the deliberate destruction of ancient temples by Christians "seems to have been exceptionally rare in real life" and that the Christian book-burning was always directed towards heretical or "magical" writing, and not towards classical literature.[5]

Professor Tim Whitmarsh of Cambridge University described it as "a finely crafted, invigorating polemic against the resilient popular myth that presents the Christianisation of Rome as the triumph of a kinder, gentler politics. On those terms, it succeeds brilliantly". He also cautions that the work risks being one-sided. He said it represented a reversion to Edward Gibbon's view of the Christians as instigators of the fall of Rome. "In seeking to expose the error and corruption of the early Christian world, Nixey comes close to veiling the pre-Christian Romans’ own barbarous qualities," he said.[2]

Johannes (Hans) van Oort, a Dutch Professor of Patristics and Gnostic Studies at Radboud University, states that Nixey "is replaying her hand with her fierce tone and gross exaggeration" and that her book "lacks any historical structure". Van Oort also writes that Nixey doesn't understand some historical contexts and that she "makes some serious historical slips".[6]

Levi Roach, a medievalist of University of Exeter, states that Nixey's book "does not seek to present a balanced picture" and that it is "a book of generalisations". He also states, "Nixey ends up endorsing the long-debunked view of the Middle Ages as a period of blind faith and intellectual stagnation".[7]

Richard Tada, PhD in ancient Greek and Byzantine history from the University of Washington, states that Nixey ventured "into areas where she is clearly out of her depth" and as result her book is "a shoddy work that fails to make the grade even as a polemic", and that one of Nixey's attempts to blame Christians for the supposedly destruction of classical world is "simply dishonest", where she misrepresents both primary and secondary sources.[8]

Averil Cameron, professor emerita of Late Antique and Byzantine History at the University of Oxford, points out that Nixey is promoting some outdated teachings and finds Nixey's book without nuance and counter-arguments, and states that Nixey's readers would never know that there are academic works that contradict her narrative if they only get their information from her.[9] On Twitter Cameron called Nixey's book "a travesty".[10]

My advice???Don't read anything written by journalists and humanists who are not historians; they, unlike historians, stand to gain from lying and politicizing. You can read genuine sociological or economic work that attempts to explain the dynamics behind things but the kind of quasi-sociological commentary that is written as if it is simply telling the actual history(like Zizek, Bouldillard, Focault and the rest of the degenerates) is just plain dishonest manipulation and deserves a slap in the face. You want to tell a story then find out what happened(and if there are multiple scenarios then show them all and weigh the likelihood of each), you want to provide a theory of why it happened???well...provide a theory???
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 1:06 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Nice piece of ass, I'd definitely take her from the back and slip the condom off at some point.
Lets take a look at Wikipedia:
e Darkening Age was chosen as one of The New York Times' "Notable Books" for 2018 and was listed on "book of the year" lists by The Telegraph, The Spectator, The Observer, and BBC History.[4]

Among scholars
Peter Thonemann, a professor of ancient history at the University of Oxford, argues that Nixey's work is problematic, and that "the argument depends on quite a bit of nifty footwork", because Nixey makes a large number of broad generalizations based on limited evidence. He also states that the deliberate destruction of ancient temples by Christians "seems to have been exceptionally rare in real life" and that the Christian book-burning was always directed towards heretical or "magical" writing, and not towards classical literature.[5]

Professor Tim Whitmarsh of Cambridge University described it as "a finely crafted, invigorating polemic against the resilient popular myth that presents the Christianisation of Rome as the triumph of a kinder, gentler politics. On those terms, it succeeds brilliantly". He also cautions that the work risks being one-sided. He said it represented a reversion to Edward Gibbon's view of the Christians as instigators of the fall of Rome. "In seeking to expose the error and corruption of the early Christian world, Nixey comes close to veiling the pre-Christian Romans’ own barbarous qualities," he said.[2]

Johannes (Hans) van Oort, a Dutch Professor of Patristics and Gnostic Studies at Radboud University, states that Nixey "is replaying her hand with her fierce tone and gross exaggeration" and that her book "lacks any historical structure". Van Oort also writes that Nixey doesn't understand some historical contexts and that she "makes some serious historical slips".[6]

Levi Roach, a medievalist of University of Exeter, states that Nixey's book "does not seek to present a balanced picture" and that it is "a book of generalisations". He also states, "Nixey ends up endorsing the long-debunked view of the Middle Ages as a period of blind faith and intellectual stagnation".[7]

Richard Tada, PhD in ancient Greek and Byzantine history from the University of Washington, states that Nixey ventured "into areas where she is clearly out of her depth" and as result her book is "a shoddy work that fails to make the grade even as a polemic", and that one of Nixey's attempts to blame Christians for the supposedly destruction of classical world is "simply dishonest", where she misrepresents both primary and secondary sources.[8]

Averil Cameron, professor emerita of Late Antique and Byzantine History at the University of Oxford, points out that Nixey is promoting some outdated teachings and finds Nixey's book without nuance and counter-arguments, and states that Nixey's readers would never know that there are academic works that contradict her narrative if they only get their information from her.[9] On Twitter Cameron called Nixey's book "a travesty".[10]

My advice???Don't read anything written by journalists and humanists who are not historians; they, unlike historians, stand to gain from lying and politicizing. You can read genuine sociological or economic work that attempts to explain the dynamics behind things but the kind of quasi-sociological commentary that is written as if it is simply telling the actual history(like Zizek, Bouldillard, Focault and the rest of the degenerates) is just plain dishonest manipulation and deserves a slap in the face. You want to tell a story then find out what happened(and if there are multiple scenarios then show them all and weigh the likelihood of each), you want to provide a theory of why it happened???well...provide a theory???

I think that Professor Tim Whitmarsh of Cambridge University description of the book is fitting: "a finely crafted, invigorating polemic against the resilient popular myth that presents the Christianisation of Rome as the triumph of a kinder, gentler politics."
Christianity had its ISIS and Taliban phase in the fourth and fifth century, which is also upheld by other books on the subject. There is a tendency in the book to tell the story in personalised narratives, revealing her intentions to show up the fact that the Greeks and Romans were not just ruthless vandals, but were working at developing a society in which debate is open and ideas were being exchanged. The idolatry that Christians took offence to was tradition in their minds, that had withstood the test of centuries and the general feeling was that many gods meant that everyone could find their own devotion.
Of course, if one comes and demands that there is only one jealous God, who demands that people believe the doctrine of the church to be saved, then the idols were a problem. What seems to be apparent is that there was also a great deal of hysteria. The zealousness of the martyrs is well documented and would be considered very strange by today’s standards.
“… most of us would find Christians truly cast in the New Testament mold fairly obnoxious: civically reprobate, ideologically unsound, economically destructive, politically irresponsible, socially discreditable, and really just a bit indecent.”
“… one thing in remarkably short supply in the New Testament is common sense. The Gospels, the epistles, Acts, Revelation—all of them are relentless torrents of exorbitance and extremism: commands to become as perfect as God in his heaven and to live as insouciantly as lilies in their field; condemnations of a roving eye as equivalent to adultery and of evil thoughts toward another as equivalent to murder; injunctions to sell all one’s possessions and to give the proceeds to the poor, and demands that one hate one’s parents for the Kingdom’s sake and leave the dead to bury the dead. This extremism is not merely an occasional hyperbolic presence in the texts; it is their entire cultural and spiritual atmosphere.”
The First Christians Were Not Like Us, By David Bentley Hart Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

David Bentley Hart is an American Orthodox theologian and philosopher. His areas of specialisation are philosophical theology, religious studies, Christian metaphysics, Asian religions, patristics and aesthetics. He writes further in the essay: “The New Testament emerges from a cosmos ruled by malign celestial principalities (conquered by Christ but powerful to the end) and torn between spirit and flesh (the one, according to Paul, longing for God, the other opposing him utterly). There are no comfortable medians in these latitudes, no areas of shade. Everything is cast in the harsh light of final judgment, and that judgment is absolute. In regard to all these texts, the qualified, moderate, common-sense interpretation is always false.”

I think it is quite in harmony with these words that Nixey portrays the Christians of the day. It also explains why the scenes she so aptly describes go against what we would like to believe. I would agree that the book does tend to only mention the cruelty of the Romans as an aside, but she takes it as already well proven.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Maia » Thu May 06, 2021 1:09 pm

The end of Classical civilisation and the beginning of the Christian middle ages is perhaps best symbolised by Hypatia. For many years she was a leading figure in philosophical and scientific circles in Alexandria, and was widely admired for her learning and tolerance, until she was ambushed and hacked to death by a Christian mob in 415 AD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 1:18 pm

Maia wrote:The end of Classical civilisation and the beginning of the Christian middle ages is perhaps best symbolised by Hypatia. For many years she was a leading figure in philosophical and scientific circles in Alexandria, and was widely admired for her learning and tolerance, until she was ambushed and hacked to death by a Christian mob in 415 AD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

And? What does Hypatia have to do with Middle Ages you spook? Who hacked down Pythagoras? Who killed Socrates and why??? You kooks are an example of why not everybody should receive an education beyond the basics. How were females viewed and treated in Ancient Greece??? What about slavery???Was there slavery in Middle Ages or was it the first historical period without it? What about the caste system? Were the Christian monasteries not the first institutions which offered education to people of low origin and to females??? If you lived in Ancient Greece, you would be a property of a man who would be completely illiterate by the law and would be treated like a property...or not???
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 1:30 pm

Maia wrote:The end of Classical civilisation and the beginning of the Christian middle ages is perhaps best symbolised by Hypatia. For many years she was a leading figure in philosophical and scientific circles in Alexandria, and was widely admired for her learning and tolerance, until she was ambushed and hacked to death by a Christian mob in 415 AD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ2S4o5-lBE
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 1:36 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Were the Christian monasteries not the first institutions which offered education to people of low origin and to females???

"... monasteries and convents became centers for learning, and it was mostly the privileged—young men from nobility and the upper middle class—who were able to receive a thorough education. During this time, women’s education was not a priority, as women were believed to be intellectually inferior.

Affluent women were required to have some literacy during the Middle Ages, but their learning was intended only to prepare them for being respectable wives and mothers. Higher learning for nuns, on the other hand, was encouraged because they were required to comprehend biblical teachings. So it was no coincidence that many of the earliest female intellectuals were nuns.

Some convent offerings included reading and writing in Latin, arithmetic, grammar, music, morals, rhetoric, geometry and astronomy, according to a 1980 article by Shirley Kersey in (Vol. 58, No. 4). Spinning, weaving and embroidery were also a large part of a nun’s education and labor, writes Kersey, particularly among nuns who came from affluent families. Nuns who came from lesser means were expected to do more arduous labor as part of their religious life."
https://www.history.com/news/women-educ ... uns-church
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 1:36 pm

I think it is quite in harmony with these words that Nixey portrays the Christians of the day. It also explains why the scenes she so aptly describes go against what we would like to believe. I would agree that the book does tend to only mention the cruelty of the Romans as an aside, but she takes it as already well proven.

She does not mention the cruelty of the Romans and their ruthless culture with its caste system, slavery, extremely violent military conquest and cultural subjugation, and frequent usage of mass rapes, mass genocides and mass torture not because it is taken as well proven but because she is writing a hit-piece against Christianity and these facts would ruin her argument and make her bias obvious you lying dullard. Tell me she is not portraying the Classical period as much more civilized and humane??? Answer me, is she saying that the Ancient Greeks and Romans were more tolerant and civilized than Medival European Christians? Yes or no???
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 1:39 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:"you lying dullard"

This disqualifies you from the discussion ... sorry!
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 1:42 pm

What disqualifies you from any discussion is your brain.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 06, 2021 2:14 pm

It seems that unless we take up the issue directly by exhaustive first person research, we are at the mercy of dueling historians whose propositions we evaluate through the lens of the presuppositions we come to the subject with due to our childhood indoctrination.

As early as I can remember I was taught about the evils of state religion and the virtues of the separation of church and state over the state religion that led to the dark ages. So what's new here?

The consensus among most academic historians seems to be that the so-called dark ages is a actually unsupported myth.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 3:25 pm

felix dakat wrote:It seems that unless we take up the issue directly by exhaustive first person research, we are at the mercy of dueling historians whose propositions we evaluate through the lens of the presuppositions we come to the subject with due to our childhood indoctrination.

As early as I can remember I was taught about the evils of state religion and the virtues of the separation of church and state over the state religion that led to the dark ages. So what's new here?

The consensus among most academic historians seems to be that the so-called dark ages is a actually unsupported myth.

I found this article helpful:
http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/pdf/La ... -lions.pdf

It may not be new (the article is from 2001) but it is an interesting look at the age in the form of a book review.

"MORE CHRISTIANS WERE persecuted by the Roman Empire after Constantine's conversion to Christianity- in 312 than before. Within a century of that momentous event, bishops had become the impresarios of urban violence, directing
the Christian mob's destruction of synagogues and great pagan temples from Minorca to the edges of Persia, while the imperial government shut down traditional public cults in North Africa and in Rome itself."
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 3:34 pm

History is a violent process??? :o :o :o
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 06, 2021 5:33 pm

Just this morning I serendipitously was listening to three medieval scholars debunking the dark ages as a myth on the NPR show 1A. So I ask what in this moment of the culture wars would motivate a journalist to resurrect the theory that Christianity caused a dark age in the medieval period? And with that question I raise the suspicion that motivated reasoning may be involved.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 6:17 pm

The state moloch wants to monopolize morality and religion for itself; it wants to replace Christian churches and Christian morality and culture with its own, self-serving morality and culture. Its priests are the psychologists like Peterson, its revelatory moment was the Holocaust, its preachers are the teachers, humanists and police, its greatest sin is racism and antisemitism, its heaven is a multicultural society guarded by human-rights, its inquisition are the journalistic dogs and their newspapers and the justice warriors, its confession is in bowing your head for the things you have not committed in front of people who never experienced them(American whites and American negros)...and so forth. What makes the injustice towards the American negro any different that the injustice towards the Poles, Hungarians, the Dutch and so forth committed by the Germans and so forth???The only difference is the racism and racism is this religions greatest sin and you must seek retribution for your sins, so that even the most intelligent of Yanks are mindlessly following this insanity and confessing their guilt and bowing their heads.
Last edited by polishyouthgotipbanned on Thu May 06, 2021 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 06, 2021 6:20 pm

this idea of a "Dark Ages" being the middle ages also allows a narrative....

if Greece and Rome were days/ages of "enlightenment" where the age might
be called an "age of light" then it follows that we can also think of modern times,
our modern era as being one that an "age of light"... we can hold to the belief
that we moderns live in an age that is "progressive" "enlightened"
not held down by "ancient" prejudices and superstitions that the Medieval man
was forced to suffer through....

in other words, we were somehow superior to the medieval man because
we don't exists in the "dark ages".....it helps our ego to think that we have somehow
have progressed beyond those "dark ages"....that we have overcome those "dark ages"...

and in a few hundred years, assuming we don't destroy ourselves, people will
likely be laughing at us for living in the "dark ages"....
and just as likely cursing us for our blindness on climate change
and the damage that such ism's and ideologies did to the planet Earth....
ism's like capitalism... which one day will be cursed as we curse those who
tried to wipe out "Pagan" Greece and Rome.....with the destruction of
the ancient writings like Plato and Aristotle and the Greek plays that
once numbered in the thousands, now only a handful exists.. having survived
the long years of attempted destruction.... as we try to edit and destroy texts and writings
that are "subversive" to the current order of things.........
we are just as ignorant about existence as the "dark ages" were, we just
don't have the courage to admit it.....

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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 6:21 pm

felix dakat wrote:Just this morning I serendipitously was listening to three medieval scholars debunking the dark ages as a myth on the NPR show 1A. So I ask what in this moment of the culture wars would motivate a journalist to resurrect the theory that Christianity caused a dark age in the medieval period? And with that question I raise the suspicion that motivated reasoning may be involved.

Looking back from the Enlightenment, as the name suggests, the centuries before were oppressive and dictated by the interpretation of the Bible. The Church was the most powerful force in Europe and determined where the pursuance of knowledge was allowed to go. There was no doubt a blossoming of church building and arts, but it was confined in many ways to the devotional. There was progress made in various areas of knowledge and the church began to copy many of the lost Greek classics, preserving them by that. I think that in many ways it was a time of restriction and many wars:

Karl, a son of Pepin the Short, inherited the Frankish kingdom with his brother Carloman when Pepin died in 768. Carloman died several years later, and 29-year-old Karl assumed complete control, beginning his historic reign as Charlemagne (or Charles the Great). Over some 50 military campaigns, his forces fought Muslims in Spain, Bavarians and Saxons in northern Germany and Lombards in Italy, expanding the Frankish empire exponentially. As representative of the first Germanic tribe to practice Catholicism, Charlemagne took seriously his duty to spread the faith. In 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne “emperor of the Romans,” which eventually evolved into the title of Holy Roman Emperor.

The Battle of Tours was one of the most important battles of middle ages war. The watershed of the battle was marked by Charles Martel’s decision to inhibit the Muslims from invading the Frankish Empire. The battle began October 10 732 AD and it is possible that it lasted more than one week. The Spanish army led by Abd-er Rahman sought to make headway to the city of Tours to besiege the Frankish Empire. In the end, the Muslim retreated from the city of Tours and Martel was able to capture Abd-er Rahman.

The Battle of Hastings was one of the most significant middle ages war due to the subsequent changes that it brought across the English throne. The battle had an impact on English language, culture and law and marked the early beginnings of the English feudalism. The battle of Hastings began 14 October 1066 AD when King Edward of England died without children to succeed him. After his death, his close friend Harold Godwinson took over the throne but this was met with opposition from Edward’s cousin, William the Duke of Normandy.

The Battle of Bannockburn was Scotland’s war of independence against the Kings of England Edward I and Edward II. The war took place in Central Scotland on June 23rd and 24th 1314 between the Scottish army and the English, Welsh and a segment of the Scottish army. The battle began when Edward II, brother to the Scottish King took over Stirling Castle despite the fact that it had a formidable defense. The castles’ governor Sir Philip de Mowbray offered to surrender the castle to Edward II if no relief was forthcoming. Edward congregated an army totaling over 40,000 soldiers; these included knights, bowmen and both strong and lightweight infantry. The Scot army under King Robert of Scotland, was made up of 13,000 soldiers, thereby convincing Edward II that he would conquer Scotland. The battle began June 23. Notably the English knight suffered more casualties than the Scottish soldiers.

Christians had always undertaken pilgrimage to the Holy Land despite the prevailing Muslim rule. However, in 11 century the Seljuk Turks gained authority over Jerusalem and prevented Christians from undertaking the pilgrimages. This marked the beginning of the seven crusades that saw Christians wage a series of wars against the Muslims in an effort to get back Jerusalem. Crusaders numbering in their thousands sailed to the Holy Land in a historical journey that would cost many lives.

The Battle of Crecy was a decisive defeat of the French in the Hundred Years War, triggered by King Edward III, King of England who was claiming the French throne. The Hundred Years War lasted until the beginning of the 15 century. Edward III King of England engaged his 12000 professional soldiers in a battle with 40,000 French soldiers under the command of Philip VI. King Edward III positioned his troops on a hill where they could fire their arrows easily; they threw an approximated 12 arrows per minute, causing massive destruction to the French army.

Kings, queens and other rulers during the early medieval period drew much of their authority and power from their relationship with the Church. The rise of a strong papacy, beginning with Gregory the Great (pope from 590 to 604), meant that European monarchs could not monopolize power, unlike in the days of the Roman Empire.

I think that these conflicts show that the Church didn’t have the peaceful influence upon Europe, quite the contrary, and although there was progress made in various fields, the peasants of the land will have suffered the wars most of all, culminating of course in the thirty years war, that decimated the population. One area where progress was made, in Spain prior to the inquisition, was when Muslims, Jews and Christians co-existed. But as we know, the inquisition ended that. First of all the Muslims were driven out, then Jews were forced to convert (although nobody believed them). Not a nice time, even though it was when Christopher Columbus set out, beginning the colonization of the Americas. We all know what happened then ...
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 6:27 pm

Muslims, Jews and Christians co-existed peacefully??? In Spain??? :-? :-? :-? You are either insane, lying or an utter dullard. If anything, by the historical standards, the Church and its inquisition was surprisingly tolerant and patient(at least to me). If I had Islam sitting on the border with France, waiting to steam-roll and subjugate Central Europe, I'd cut hands off anybody who stood up to Papal and Charles attempts to unify the Europe and push back the djihad. The nazis lamented the massacre of heathens by Charles Martel but the nazis and neo-nazis were a bunch of unfortunate and dangerous goons with shit for brain so who cares.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 10:35 pm

What would Islamists do to the squabbling and tribalistic Slavic and Germanic heathens if not the unifying and universalist Christianity???Well...were there a documented case of any Heathenistic tribe merging into a single and cohesive unit to fend off the danger??? What was the main reason for the downfall of Ancient Greece??? Why is India such a shithole???Why did tribalism go extinct??? Why is Asia so susceptible to stagnation culturally??? Why did Islam dominate the middle, which had such a rich and diverse eco-system of faiths, cults, sects and religions??? Why did the proto-Iranians flee to India in mass numbers???Why the revolution in China happened based off of an ideology based on the thinking of Europeans???Would Carol Marx and his books be tolerated in 19th century Imperial China if they directly undermined the moral and literal authority of the Emperor???
Anybody is welcome to suggest an answer.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri May 07, 2021 3:17 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Muslims, Jews and Christians co-existed peacefully??? In Spain??? :-? :-? :-? You are either insane, lying or an utter dullard. If anything, by the historical standards, the Church and its inquisition was surprisingly tolerant and patient(at least to me). If I had Islam sitting on the border with France, waiting to steam-roll and subjugate Central Europe, I'd cut hands off anybody who stood up to Papal and Charles attempts to unify the Europe and push back the djihad. The nazis lamented the massacre of heathens by Charles Martel but the nazis and neo-nazis were a bunch of unfortunate and dangerous goons with shit for brain so who cares.

Bob has done excellent research. If you think 911 is big compared to what the Christians did you are thinking very small - I think even if there are alien lifeforms, in the entire span of the cosmos there can be no greater and more saddening, more vulgarly nihilistic destruction of culture than what happened from the appearance of Paul to the full dominion of Christianity over Europe. What does it tell you about a culture when it cuts off all the phalluses of the Greek statues? I mean this is what we can see they destroyed - all the books they burned we will never know. A christian ought to not least show some repentance for all this.

Muslims and Jews lived peacefully and prosperously, producing deeply beautiful culture, in Spain until the crusaders arrived there. Christians acted as the most savage barbarians there ever were dude. Its very remarkable how this religion can keep prostrating as some kind of form of peace. It's easily the most violent and destructive ideology that ever was. It's just historical fact.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Fri May 07, 2021 3:48 pm

These are just empty smears and beneath them a deeply hypocritical double-standard. Christians are to be judged by one standard whilst everybody else by a more lenient one. The fact that the Ancient Civilisations treated females like literal property with innate inferior characteristics is somehow never mentioned when you kooks criticize Christianity and its restrictive approach to sexuality...this is a serious discussion???or a dishonest manipulation??? I am starting to see how the SHITthyself kooks got around this forum. I never denied the golden age of Islam nor the fact that we got the numerical system through them...of course...you kooks are overestimating the tolerance during that Golden Age and are repeating smears made-up by Jewish historians meant to attack Christian Europeans and paint their own treatment of Jewry in a bad light.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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