Heaven and Hell

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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:41 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Ierrellus,

It is important to believers in Jesus to know what he did not say, if they base their lives on what they are told he said
.

That makes no sense to me. How does one go about accomplishing such a feat? And why would they? Believers take what Christ said in faith.

Do you see this as kind of the same thing as finding out who and what God is NOT before one can discover who he is - kind of like the process of elimination?

Please give me an example if you will - something he said as opposed to what he did not say regarding the same thing/issue.

Jesus did not say there is eternal conscious torment for sinners. The Apocalypse of Peter lists 21 types of sin and their punishments. Among these is one that states that male adulterers are hanged by their testicles for all eternity. This apocalypse was eventually considered non-canonical.
Have you read the new book?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:46 pm

Jesus talks about hell many times in the NT.

According to the NT, Jesus sees existence in three realms, heaven, earth and hell.

This is ALL canonical.

Jesus then states that heaven and earth shall pass.

He never states that hell will pass.

This is basic logic: all believers in Jesus spirit go to hell forever.

Remember? “those who believe in me shall not perish, but have ever lasting life”

This is all canonical and it’s all basic logic.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:49 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Jesus talks about hell many times in the NT.

According to the NT, Jesus sees existence in three realms, heaven, earth and hell.

This is ALL canonical.

Jesus then states that heaven and earth shall pass.

He never states that hell will pass.

This is basic logic: all believers in Jesus spirit go to hell forever.

Remember? “those who believe in me shall not perish, but have ever lasting life”

This is all canonical and it’s all basic logic.

Please refrain from posting in mt thread!1! Second request. You said you would not post here. Did you lie? I'd rather have no thread then one with your input. Dan, help please.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:51 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Jesus talks about hell many times in the NT.

According to the NT, Jesus sees existence in three realms, heaven, earth and hell.

This is ALL canonical.

Jesus then states that heaven and earth shall pass.

He never states that hell will pass.

This is basic logic: all believers in Jesus spirit go to hell forever.

Remember? “those who believe in me shall not perish, but have ever lasting life”

This is all canonical and it’s all basic logic.

Please refrain from posting in mt thread!1! Second request. You said you would not post here. Did you lie?


Fuck. I thought I made this thread. Memory can be fickle.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:56 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Jesus talks about hell many times in the NT.

According to the NT, Jesus sees existence in three realms, heaven, earth and hell.

This is ALL canonical.

Jesus then states that heaven and earth shall pass.

He never states that hell will pass.

This is basic logic: all believers in Jesus spirit go to hell forever.

Remember? “those who believe in me shall not perish, but have ever lasting life”

This is all canonical and it’s all basic logic.

Please refrain from posting in mt thread!1! Second request. You said you would not post here. Did you lie?


Fuck. I thought I made this thread. Memory can be fickle.


I will add that your consent is violated by me posting here. What’s the biggest problem in existence again?

Consent violation.

I’m not doing this intentionally to you.

You fail to acknowledge that Jesus was insane.

If Jesus has walked in water and resurrected and stated, “the biggest problem in life is consent violation.”

The world would be better and god would have been exposed.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Flannel Jesus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:11 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
I will add that your consent is violated by me posting here. What’s the biggest problem in existence again?

Consent violation.

I’m not doing this intentionally to you.


You're posting in here unintentionally? How does that work?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:40 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
I will add that your consent is violated by me posting here. What’s the biggest problem in existence again?

Consent violation.

I’m not doing this intentionally to you.


You're posting in here unintentionally? How does that work?


I forgot I didn’t start this thread. My last post was intentional. This one too.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:53 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Flannel Jesus wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
I will add that your consent is violated by me posting here. What’s the biggest problem in existence again?

Consent violation.

I’m not doing this intentionally to you.


You're posting in here unintentionally? How does that work?


I forgot I didn’t start this thread. My last post was intentional. This one too.


Flannel. Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. I know you’re moderating.

The discussion of consent is in its infancy as a meta topic.

That’s not my fault.

I’m not trying to hurt people.

I see the last age that we’ll ever have as what I call, “the age of discussing consent”

The former age was “the Information Age.”
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Flannel Jesus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:58 pm

I didn't say that as a moderator, there's no forum rule that states that if the person who started the thread doesn't want you to post, that you're not allowed to post. I just don't understand how you're saying that not violating consent is the most important thing, and then admit that you're doing it, and then continue to do it. That's all.

But there's no forum rule to stop you.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:09 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:I didn't say that as a moderator, there's no forum rule that states that if the person who started the thread doesn't want you to post, that you're not allowed to post. I just don't understand how you're saying that not violating consent is the most important thing, and then admit that you're doing it, and then continue to do it. That's all.

But there's no forum rule to stop you.


Let’s be honest. All I have to do is copy every post here and make a new thread of it.

That would still bother the OP.

The OP doesn’t want to be replied to.

Which is different than not posting in their thread.

The OP wants ILP to be a Christian fundamentalist board.

Let’s be honest Flannel.

What do you think Ierrellus would have done if I started a shadow thread?
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:15 pm

Anyone here interested in the pseudepigraphic works that influenced early Christianity? Works such as The Book of Enoch: the watchers, The Apocalypse of Peter, the Apocalypse of Paul, the Gospel of Thomas, etc? If so, "Tours of Heaven and Hell" will be worth your reading time. The subtitle of the book is "Tours of the afterlife in the Early Cristian Tradition." Beginning his book with the stories of afterlife in Homer and Virgil, Ehrman continues the tours with stories from books that might have been considered orthodox in the first to fourth centuries. CE.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:03 pm

Ec, I’m willing to discuss your recent replies & your vid on NT in a new post.

I’m not mature enough to discuss the Apocalypse of Peter’s balls (not Peter’s… ok anyway, I told you).
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:20 pm

All are welcome to reply to me here in Ec’s thread, but don’t be a d*** to Ec.
https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... 2#p2878012
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Flannel Jesus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:32 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Flannel Jesus wrote:Just saw this thread. I actually got this book for Christmas! Haven't read it yet though. What do you think of it?
Did you get his original Heaven and Hell or his current Journeys to Heaven and Hell? I haven't read the latter, but from what I've been able to find out about it, it covers most of the same material.
Heaven and Hell goes back to the earliest known writings (Gilgamesh) and travels though Homer, Virgil, Plato. etc. for stories about reward and punishment in the afterlife. The book also traces the origins of these concepts through early Christianity.
Ehrman writes well. I think you'll enjoy it.

I just saw this for some reason.

Mine is called Heaven and Hell, a history of the afterlife
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:21 pm

Ichthus,
Please court Ecmandu elsewhere.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:25 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Ichthus,
Please court Ecmandu elsewhere.


Be careful what you wish for.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:32 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Flannel Jesus wrote:I didn't say that as a moderator, there's no forum rule that states that if the person who started the thread doesn't want you to post, that you're not allowed to post. I just don't understand how you're saying that not violating consent is the most important thing, and then admit that you're doing it, and then continue to do it. That's all.

But there's no forum rule to stop you.


Let’s be honest. All I have to do is copy every post here and make a new thread of it.

That would still bother the OP.

The OP doesn’t want to be replied to.

Which is different than not posting in their thread.

The OP wants ILP to be a Christian fundamentalist board.

Let’s be honest Flannel.

What do you think Ierrellus would have done if I started a shadow thread?

This thread is not a Christian fundamentalist only thread. It is about Ehrman's second book on the afterlife. Let's be honest Ecmandu. You were instrumental in having my last two threads locked. Is it any wonder that I do not want to hear from you? You never address the subject matter of the threads.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:36 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Flannel Jesus wrote:Just saw this thread. I actually got this book for Christmas! Haven't read it yet though. What do you think of it?
Did you get his original Heaven and Hell or his current Journeys to Heaven and Hell? I haven't read the latter, but from what I've been able to find out about it, it covers most of the same material.
Heaven and Hell goes back to the earliest known writings (Gilgamesh) and travels though Homer, Virgil, Plato. etc. for stories about reward and punishment in the afterlife. The book also traces the origins of these concepts through early Christianity.
Ehrman writes well. I think you'll enjoy it.

I just saw this for some reason.

Mine is called Heaven and Hell, a history of the afterlife

The second book, "Tours of Heaven and Hell", was just published in the Spring of 2022.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:56 pm

I would not recommend "Tours of Heaven and Hell" to the average reader. It is far too technical. It covers stories of the afterlife from ancient Greek and Roman sources, from Jewish sources and from early Christian (proto-orthodox) works.
Of some interest, to me at least, was Ehrman's findings that the Apocalypse of Peter was altered in its several forms and was stricken from the canon because the work suggested universal salvation.
Ehrman reviews the Gospel of Nicodemus and other sources about the harrowing of hell, raising the question- whom did Christ save in his descent into hell? A chosen few? Or the entire population of the place?
He notes that Origen wrote of universalism and Augustine wrote against it. In fact, Augustine ridiculed universalism in "The City of God". This leads to a debate worthy of considering--did Paul note that all would be saved eventually?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Flannel Jesus » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:59 pm

All very fascinating questions. Bart Ehrman introduced me to the concept that a lot of things we take for granted about Christianity were quite likely invented many years after Jesus death, possibly including the idea that Jesus was divine. All fascinating stuff.

If you want to see records of a religion changing in real time, Mormonism is where you want to look. So many interesting things in Mormon history, it's my religious obsession.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:51 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:All very fascinating questions. Bart Ehrman introduced me to the concept that a lot of things we take for granted about Christianity were quite likely invented many years after Jesus death, possibly including the idea that Jesus was divine. All fascinating stuff.

If you want to see records of a religion changing in real time, Mormonism is where you want to look. So many interesting things in Mormon history, it's my religious obsession.

Do Mormons believe in universal salvation or in salvation for a chosen few?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Flannel Jesus » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:26 pm

Like a lot of Christians, but not all, they believe in salvation as long as you believe the right things.

Unlike a lot of Christians, they actually believe in different levels of heaven, with the possibility of basically becoming a god yourself - we are literally the offspring of God and have the full potential to inherit everything about godhood.

Their idea of hell is a bit murky - apparently, the vast majority of people, even non believers, will live in a kingdom that's undeniably "heaven" compared to this life, but not the highest level. To go into a genuine hell apparently takes some specific kinds of sins, and hell is called "outer darkness", whose exact properties are not completely clear. Is it eternal boredom, or soul destruction and non existence? I'm not sure. Some people also think outer darkness isn't even permanent.

They also have a very unique belief that you can be converted after death - hence the controversial practice of baptisms for the dead. This is how they get over the philosophical problem of "How can you punish someone for not believing the right thing if they were never exposed to the right thing?"
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:48 pm

The ideas you express here as belonging to Mormons were prevalent in the early Christian era-- say 2nd to 4th centuries, CE. Prominent among these were views of the "substance" of Jesus and of God and of the afterlife. Some believed that the Jesus who appeared before the disciples was a spirit, not flesh and blood (Docetism). There is a strange story that tells of Jesus being crucified while the spirit Jesus looked on.
As for the afterlife of pious pagans or of Adam's descendants, the problem of how they could be punished for ignorance of Jesus or for existing prior to Jesus' preaching is addressed in many tales of the harrowing of Hell in which Jesus, after being crucified, preaches to the people in hell (Hades) and saves
either all of them or a chosen few.
My favorite early Christian writer is Origen who believed in eventual salvation for all mankind. It may be that, in our time, this idea is being renewed among Progressive Christians.
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