Heaven and Hell

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Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:16 pm

Thoughts about Bart D. Ehrman"s book "Heaven and Hell". 2020, p155
"One of my theses is that a close reading of Jesus's words shows that in fact
he had no idea of torment for sinners after death. Death, for them, is
irreversible, the end of the story. Their punishment is that they will be
annihilated, never to exist again, unlike the saved, who will live forever
in God's glorious kingdom."--Ehrman.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby phyllo » Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:35 pm

Most problems seem to arise from poor translations and poor understanding of what Jesus is talking about.

For example, Gehenna is translated as 'hell'. Supposedly it is the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem when rubbish is continuously burned. But if look at the research, the reality seems to be very different.

Here is some research:
https://www.bibleplaces.com/blog/2011/0 ... -scholars/

What would people 2000 years ago, or the translators working hundreds of years ago, know about the place? Not much.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:06 pm

phyllo wrote:Most problems seem to arise from poor translations and poor understanding of what Jesus is talking about.

For example, Gehenna is translated as 'hell'. Supposedly it is the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem when rubbish is continuously burned. But if look at the research, the reality seems to be very different.

Here is some research:
https://www.bibleplaces.com/blog/2011/0 ... -scholars/

What would people 2000 years ago, or the translators working hundreds of years ago, know about the place? Not much.

Good points.
Gehenna got its claim to infamy as the valley where people sacrificed their children to the Gods Moloch and Baal. The parents burned their children.
The Valley is not still burning, hence no everlasting fires therein.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:08 pm

How does Ehrman make his case?
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:18 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:How does Ehrman make his case?

Ehrman examines the history of these ideas (reward and punishment) in the context of what people near the time of Jesus wrote.
Jesus spoke mostly in parables, which cannot be taken literally.
I have about 30 pages left in reading Ehrman's book. So, I'll be able to comment more when I read his conclusions. Bear with me.
Phyllo's post was a good start.
I'm having difficulty typing. Must rest.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:06 pm

If you want to discuss Gehenna, go here, click all the verses, in them click on all their commentaries.
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1067.htm

Stretches back to Valley of Hinnom. That’s OT stuff.

Hell — on earth — is when you’ve absolutely lost all perspective to the point you are eating/sacrificing children.

Or, say, using/selling them for parts/sex.

Too late? Too soon?

God knows.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby felix dakat » Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:11 pm

Starting in the sixth century BCE, Hebrew prophets began to proclaim that the nation that had been destroyed would be restored to life by God. In a sense, it would be “raised from the dead.” This was a national resurrection—not of the people who lived in the nation but a restoration of the nation Israel itself—to become, once more, a sovereign state.

Toward the very end of the Old Testament period, some Jewish thinkers came to believe this future “resurrection” would apply not to the fortunes of the nation but to individuals. If God was just, surely he could not allow the suffering of the righteous to go unrequited. There would be a future day of judgment, when God would literally bring his people, each of them, back to life. This would be a resurrection of the dead: those who had sided with God would be returned to their bodies to live forevermore.

Jesus of Nazareth inherited this view and forcefully proclaimed it. Those who did God’s will would be rewarded at the end, raised from the dead to live forever in a glorious kingdom here on earth. Those opposed to God would be punished by being annihilated out of existence. For Jesus this was to happen very soon. Evil had taken control of this world and was wreaking havoc in it, especially among the people of God. But God would soon intervene to overthrow these forces of evil and establish his kingdom here on earth.

Ehrman, Bart D.. Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife (pp. XXI-XXII). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition.



If this be the case, why does the image of hell have such a psychological grip on so many people who are terrorized by images of it and/or terrorize others with it?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:53 am

Ichthus77 wrote:How does Ehrman make his case?

Please read the book and see.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:11 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Starting in the sixth century BCE, Hebrew prophets began to proclaim that the nation that had been destroyed would be restored to life by God. In a sense, it would be “raised from the dead.” This was a national resurrection—not of the people who lived in the nation but a restoration of the nation Israel itself—to become, once more, a sovereign state.

Toward the very end of the Old Testament period, some Jewish thinkers came to believe this future “resurrection” would apply not to the fortunes of the nation but to individuals. If God was just, surely he could not allow the suffering of the righteous to go unrequited. There would be a future day of judgment, when God would literally bring his people, each of them, back to life. This would be a resurrection of the dead: those who had sided with God would be returned to their bodies to live forevermore.

Jesus of Nazareth inherited this view and forcefully proclaimed it. Those who did God’s will would be rewarded at the end, raised from the dead to live forever in a glorious kingdom here on earth. Those opposed to God would be punished by being annihilated out of existence. For Jesus this was to happen very soon. Evil had taken control of this world and was wreaking havoc in it, especially among the people of God. But God would soon intervene to overthrow these forces of evil and establish his kingdom here on earth.

Ehrman, Bart D.. Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife (pp. XXI-XXII). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition.



If this be the case, why does the image of hell have such a psychological grip on so many people who are terrorized by images of it and/or terrorize others with it?


Good points.
People, believing there is no justice in this life in the world, proclaimed the existence of another world after death in which justice could be served. And when their reward the promised kingdom of God did not appear in their lifetimes, they believed rewards and punishments would occur immediately after death. For some, the thought of afterlife torture was seen as a deterrent from sinning, the more frightening the better chance of its effectiveness. Ehrman notes 'it was not to scare the hell out of people; it was to scare the people out of hell." It is remarkable that this idea persists in 21st century USA.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:19 pm

It is remarkable that this idea persists in 21st century USA.
Well, there's lots of injustice in 21st century USA.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:31 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:How does Ehrman make his case?

Please read the book and see.


Just think the fact this is a philosophy forum would be a great opportunity to lay out his argument.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:34 pm

phyllo wrote:
It is remarkable that this idea persists in 21st century USA.
Well, there's lots of injustice in 21st century USA.

Yes, but in order to stop it would you tell your toddler child that he, having done some minor infraction of your rules, deserves to be beaten for the rest of his life? Ehrman brings up the problem of degrees of sin and punishment in ideas that suggest the origins of Purgatory.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:35 pm

duplicate
Last edited by Ierrellus on Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:38 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:How does Ehrman make his case?

Please read the book and see.


Just think the fact this is a philosophy forum would be a great opportunity to lay out his argument.

It's a history. I'll be glad to comment on your take on it.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby felix dakat » Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:21 pm

After Jesus’s death, his disciples carried on his message, even as they transformed it in light of the new circumstances they came to face. Among other things, the expected end never did come, which led to a reevaluation of Jesus’s original message.

Some of his followers came to think that God’s vindication of his followers would not be delayed until the end of human history. It would happen to each person at the point of death. Believers in Christ would be taken into the presence of Christ in heaven as they awaited the return to their bodies at the future resurrection. Those opposed to God, however, would be punished.

Eventually Christians came to think this punishment would not entail annihilation (Jesus’s view) but torment, and not just for a short day or two but forever. God is eternal; his creation is eternal; humans are eternal; and eternity will show forth God’s glorious judgments: paradise for the saints and pain for the sinners. Heaven and hell were born.

In short, the ideas of the afterlife that so many billions of people in our world have inherited emerged over a long period of time as people struggled with how this world can be fair and how God or the gods can be just. Death itself cannot be the end of the story. Surely all people will receive what they deserve. But this is not what people always thought. It was a view that Jews and Christians came up with over a long period of time as they tried to explain the injustice of this world and the ultimate triumph of good over evil.

A study of the evolution of these beliefs can lead to important and salutary ends. On the academic and intellectual level, it will tell us a lot about the historical development of Christianity, the most important religious movement in the history of our civilization.

On a more personal level—in fact, in the most personal terms possible—a fuller understanding of where the ideas of heaven and hell came from can provide assurance and comfort because, contrary to what I once thought, even if we do have something to hope for after we have passed from the realm of temporary consciousness, we have absolutely nothing to fear.

I believe this assurance, on a practical level, can free us to appreciate and enjoy our existence in the here and now,living lives full of meaning and purpose in the brief moment given us in this world of mortals.

Ehrman, Bart D.. Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife (pp. XXII-XXIII). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition.

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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:19 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
phyllo wrote:
It is remarkable that this idea persists in 21st century USA.
Well, there's lots of injustice in 21st century USA.

Yes, but in order to stop it would you tell your toddler child that he, having done some minor infraction of your rules, deserves to be beaten for the rest of his life? Ehrman brings up the problem of degrees of sin and punishment in ideas that suggest the origins of Purgatory.
It's not strange that people believe in some sort of punishment after death.

I wonder how many of them believe in "eternal punishment". They could be blindly repeating the party line. Maybe if they thought about it, they would concede that enough is enough.

That's how we got purgatory and limbo ... people thought that some cases really didn't deserve eternal damnation, so they tweaked it. (That and the profit motive of the church. :evilfun: )
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:26 pm

“a minor infraction” … that misses the point. He didn’t come to heal the healthy. When you realize you’re spiritually sick and seemingly beyond the point of no return… remember. When nothing satisfies, but you’re still hungry… remember.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Excuse #2 why I’m not dating: I want to be able to say I haven’t shaved in a decade.

Excuse #1 “I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member.” - Groucho Marx

Excuse #3: I wouldn’t want to get too attached right before Mutually Assured Destruction.

Follow me for more excuses.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:47 pm

What is your point?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby felix dakat » Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:37 pm

I wonder how many of them believe in "eternal punishment". They could be blindly repeating the party line. Maybe if they thought about it, they would concede that enough is enough.

That's how we got purgatory and limbo ... people thought that some cases really didn't deserve eternal damnation, so they tweaked it. (That and the profit motive of the church. :evilfun: )


Fear is a great motivator. It regularly motivates the gospel preachers to literally stand in the street In front of the gas station in the city where I live with signs preaching that believing in Jesus is the only means of saving people from the eternal fires of hell. If they thought that following Jesus’ teaching would merely make people better or live more meaningful lives, would they stand out there with signs about it?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby felix dakat » Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:43 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:“a minor infraction” … that misses the point. He didn’t come to heal the healthy. When you realize you’re spiritually sick and seemingly beyond the point of no return… remember. When nothing satisfies, but you’re still hungry… remember.


According to Augustinian theology we are all carriers of original sin. Without grace it is impossible not to sin.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:46 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:How does Ehrman make his case?

Please read the book and see.


Just think the fact this is a philosophy forum would be a great opportunity to lay out his argument.

See Jason's comments about the use of philosophy in a religious forum.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:00 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:“a minor infraction” … that misses the point. He didn’t come to heal the healthy. When you realize you’re spiritually sick and seemingly beyond the point of no return… remember. When nothing satisfies, but you’re still hungry… remember.


According to Augustinian theology we are all carriers of original sin. Without grace it is impossible not to sin.

True. And Augustine's "The City of God" gave us the first Christian ideas of everlasting rewards and punishments for sinners. The Catholic (Universal orthodox) Church followed Augustine's ideas instead of those of Origen.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:20 pm

"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Ierrellus
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby phyllo » Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:41 pm

According to Augustinian theology we are all carriers of original sin.
What the hell?? How is that possible??

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Ezekiel 18:19-20 NIV
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby felix dakat » Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:00 pm

phyllo wrote:
According to Augustinian theology we are all carriers of original sin.
What the hell?? How is that possible??

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Ezekiel 18:19-20 NIV


Here is a brief presentation of the history of the concept
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

According to Paul Ricoeur, the most primal and spontaneous symbols of evil are defilement, sin and guilt. The idea of original sin is logically downstream from those phenomena.
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