Heaven and Hell

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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Wed May 25, 2022 5:06 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:This is not a modal realistic reality.

There’s an entire dimension just for simulation/imagination that is never manifested into form.




But they are related by similar modes of perception, on various levels, the ones which are nik, are below and above realization.


Meno.

We have a choice to manifest it into form or not.

Until we do. It’s not form.

Ecmandu,You promised not to post in this thread.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed May 25, 2022 8:53 pm

Sorry. I thought that thread I said that about had died awhile ago.

Continue discussing things you know nothing about and I know everything about.

With others who know nothing about it either.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 26, 2022 1:23 am

Ec, you’re slipping.

You did a memory wipe.

In that other thread, you promised not to post in this one.

Remember… everyone is trolling their own threads.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Thu May 26, 2022 2:43 am

Ichthus77 wrote:Ec, you’re slipping.

You did a memory wipe.

In that other thread, you promised not to post in this one.

Remember… everyone is trolling their own threads.


I’ve also stated elsewhere that I did a partial memory wipe to stay entertained.

Back before my brain damage... it was insane how good my memory was... I was a piece of shit, but damn was my memory good.

Now I take joy in forgetting.

It makes for good conversation. It also makes me more relatable.

But even given my brain damage, I did memory wipes like everyone else here ... just not as severe as the rest of you.

Strangely enough, I start to remember more about all existence since my brain damage.

I was in a coma for a while.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 26, 2022 4:36 am

I never did a memory wipe on purpose, myself, tbh. Anywhays.

You’re a funny guy. I’ve had a bit too much excitement lately & am ready for a wholotta nuthin for a very short period of time.

And my youngns to visit. Of course.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu May 26, 2022 12:50 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:I never did a memory wipe on purpose, myself, tbh. Anywhays.

You’re a funny guy. I’ve had a bit too much excitement lately & am ready for a wholotta nuthin for a very short period of time.

And my youngns to visit. Of course.

Please don't feed the animals.
I hope you have a good vacation awhile from ILP. Come back when you can. Have a pleasant visit with the younguns.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Thu May 26, 2022 12:52 pm

If all reality is subjective, then the heaven and hell in NDEs are real places.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Sculptor » Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Thoughts about Bart D. Ehrman"s book "Heaven and Hell". 2020, p155
"One of my theses is that a close reading of Jesus's words shows that in fact
he had no idea of torment for sinners after death. Death, for them, is
irreversible, the end of the story. Their punishment is that they will be
annihilated, never to exist again, unlike the saved, who will live forever
in God's glorious kingdom."--Ehrman.


So what?

A poorly quoted orally transmitted account written decades (at best) later, is not about what this particular person J. ben Josef might have said or meant, but all about the people writing it down much later.
We know that because there are such discrepant accounts, and downright contradictions.
In truth was cannot ever tell if JC is one person but many.

And you have to ask what is the opinion of a poorly tutored Rabbi worth from the early 1st C CE? Or, indeed the fanatics who are supposed to have carried his words to the next generation?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Sculptor » Thu May 26, 2022 1:30 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:“a minor infraction” … that misses the point. He didn’t come to heal the healthy. When you realize you’re spiritually sick and seemingly beyond the point of no return… remember. When nothing satisfies, but you’re still hungry… remember.


According to Augustinian theology we are all carriers of original sin. Without grace it is impossible not to sin.


Who's Grace? Is she the friend of Dawn? I saw her coming up yesterday. She did not bring Grace with her. Maybe it's a different Gracie you are talking about? Gracie Watt?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 26, 2022 2:20 pm

Grace passed away thirty years ago.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 26, 2022 2:20 pm

Ierrellus wrote:If all reality is subjective, then the heaven and hell in NDEs are real places.


Kant
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 26, 2022 2:22 pm

equivocation on subjective

so as not to disturb the … untrodden snowfall
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 26, 2022 3:21 pm

Melting in the rain
, as we speak McArthur Park
NEVER EATEN CAKE



"Let them eat cake" , spring has sprung > looking into window bakery
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Fri May 27, 2022 12:08 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Thoughts about Bart D. Ehrman"s book "Heaven and Hell". 2020, p155
"One of my theses is that a close reading of Jesus's words shows that in fact
he had no idea of torment for sinners after death. Death, for them, is
irreversible, the end of the story. Their punishment is that they will be
annihilated, never to exist again, unlike the saved, who will live forever
in God's glorious kingdom."--Ehrman.


So what?

A poorly quoted orally transmitted account written decades (at best) later, is not about what this particular person J. ben Josef might have said or meant, but all about the people writing it down much later.
We know that because there are such discrepant accounts, and downright contradictions.
In truth was cannot ever tell if JC is one person but many.

And you have to ask what is the opinion of a poorly tutored Rabbi worth from the early 1st C CE? Or, indeed the fanatics who are supposed to have carried his words to the next generation?

It is important to believers in Jesus to know what he did not say, if they base their lives on what they are told he said.
I"m not trying to defend Jesus here. I've read several books about faulty translations and additions and deletions of early Christian manuscripts. To dwell on that is to miss the actual message of Jesus, which is "You can be as I am".
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri May 27, 2022 2:58 pm

and nihil apart from him
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri May 27, 2022 3:00 pm

Sculptor … the discrepancies are insignificant. Name one that actually changes or challenges a doctrine.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Sun May 29, 2022 12:39 pm

Is it significant that a majority of Am. Christian conservatives believe fervently in ECT?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun May 29, 2022 8:17 pm

Riddle me this: If hell is eternal, then everyone who gets sent to the fire reserved for Satan and his angels is already there. So who got released? Is that even a correct interpretation of what Jesus did in Ephesians 4:7-10 & 1 Peter 3:18-20?

Put “old testament saints hell jesus” into this search engine:

https://cse.google.com/cse?q=%20&cx=010 ... pporexry1y

We will all be salted with fire.

All will be tested in a trial by fire… all our urban/rural/remote legends … every last one.

To the Last One Standing!
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Flannel Jesus » Sun May 29, 2022 9:09 pm

Just saw this thread. I actually got this book for Christmas! Haven't read it yet though. What do you think of it?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Mon May 30, 2022 12:24 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote:Just saw this thread. I actually got this book for Christmas! Haven't read it yet though. What do you think of it?
Did you get his original Heaven and Hell or his current Journeys to Heaven and Hell? I haven't read the latter, but from what I've been able to find out about it, it covers most of the same material.
Heaven and Hell goes back to the earliest known writings (Gilgamesh) and travels though Homer, Virgil, Plato. etc. for stories about reward and punishment in the afterlife. The book also traces the origins of these concepts through early Christianity.
Ehrman writes well. I think you'll enjoy it.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:41 pm

Katabasis revisited! I just received a copy of Ehrman's "Journeys to Heaven and Hell". About a fourth of the way through it, I'm finding it a bit more technical than his other work on the subject. The new book contains many notes, which makes the reading of it difficult.
As in the former work the book begins with Greek and Roman stories of the underworld (or otherworld) and proceeds though Jewish and early Christian takes on the afterlife. Most horrific of the latter is the Apocalypse of Peter. Read its excerpts without cringing!
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:38 pm

Ierrellus,

It is important to believers in Jesus to know what he did not say, if they base their lives on what they are told he said
.

That makes no sense to me. How does one go about accomplishing such a feat? And why would they? Believers take what Christ said in faith.

Do you see this as kind of the same thing as finding out who and what God is NOT before one can discover who he is - kind of like the process of elimination?

Please give me an example if you will - something he said as opposed to what he did not say regarding the same thing/issue.
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:06 pm

Jesus. Not being a philosopher, did not say that consent violation is the only problem in existence.

Maybe he walked on water.

That makes the sin even worse.

Then he said that the GREATEST sin is attributing his works to the opposite of god. The ‘devil’.

It sounds demonic to me that he was too scared to say that when people have things happen to them that they don’t want to have happen to them is the only sin in existence ...

Why? Because it destroys the narrative of the unquestioned king.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:32 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Jesus. Not being a philosopher, did not say that consent violation is the only problem in existence.

Maybe he walked on water.

That makes the sin even worse.

Then he said that the GREATEST sin is attributing his works to the opposite of god. The ‘devil’.

It sounds demonic to me that he was too scared to say that when people have things happen to them that they don’t want to have happen to them is the only sin in existence ...

Why? Because it destroys the narrative of the unquestioned king.


Please avoid posting in mt thread.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Heaven and Hell

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:39 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Jesus. Not being a philosopher, did not say that consent violation is the only problem in existence.

Maybe he walked on water.

That makes the sin even worse.

Then he said that the GREATEST sin is attributing his works to the opposite of god. The ‘devil’.

It sounds demonic to me that he was too scared to say that when people have things happen to them that they don’t want to have happen to them is the only sin in existence ...

Why? Because it destroys the narrative of the unquestioned king.


Please avoid posting in mt thread.


This is not a Christian site. This is a philosophy site.

This is not a GOD site, this is a philosophy site.

If you want a site that bans every atheist after one post, you have thousands to choose from for your echo chamber.

The greatest philosophers on earth have been atheists.

Sorry if that bothers you.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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