A look forward in hope

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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:36 am

Bob wrote:Once again, you use terminology like “all conflict and suffering” and “magical place” and oversee that each journey begins with a single step, every sea is made up of single drops, your lungs take in single breaths. That is the way of life. There is no way to eliminate all conflict and suffering, but there is a way to start. It begins with living mindfully, and interacting with people to find common goals, developing an understanding of how we see our world.


So you are saying this is causing “an even worse hell”? What world do you live in? What is your relationship with your fellow human beings, or to life generally? It just sounds to me that what you are saying is, “I am my own neighbour and me and mine are all I care for!” Of course, with that attitude humanity will disappear up its own a**hole, and good riddance. I just believe that people understand that they are not an island, and that they live as much from each other as from their own efforts, and that most people are grateful for that. This is something to build on.


What you are arguing is, “don’t start changing things, I’m doing okay with how it is!” If you don’t want to get up and make a difference, to help make it better, then of course everything that other people are trying becomes a threat to you. I think you know it too, but can’t as yet admit it.


Bob, I believe you are being incredibly uncharitable in your interpretation of me and I don't understand why...
I'm very weary of rescuing those who suffer, by plunging other people into misery. I don't mind "making things better" but I don't think ANYTHING is better than nothing, we can very easily make things worse if we are not careful in how we diagnose the problem and how we choose to treat it... and sometimes it may be the case that there is no cure, that isn't worse than the disease.

Merely because you express sympathy for those who suffer, does not make you wise or cautious or well equipped to offer solutions... the unintended consequences of an ill considered intervention may well bring about a worse outcome. My advising caution and a dispassionate examination of the dangers of either side of the balance, you would paint as both cynical and selfish for reasons I can't comprehend.

We do not have infinite resources, time or attention... we must priorities, it's a practical necessity, no matter how distasteful it may be to you.
If you did not love your child more than the local orphans, then you'd adopt every orphan you ever met.
If they all were to ask you for help, but you only had the time to help one, which one would you choose?
If there was only enough food for one child, and all children would die without you... who would you feed?

The real world offers us such dilemmas every day, both large and small... from who we spend our free time with to who's life we'd save or what cause we'd advance with our finite resources.
Those choices, more than any vacuous declarations of love, show who and what you love and how much.
And if you think you can offer 8 billion people the same personal attention and care... you are mistaken.

Right now there are children who are dying of starvation... you and your children would be left on that very same brink if you were to treat all children as your own and distribute your wealth to feed as many as possible.
You might argue, that if we made a collective effort, we might share the load and make it possible... but what if someone didn't want to contribute and instead wished to invest his excess to some other project, like the advance of technology or science, or the quality of education? What if he wasn't alone in that desire? do we force compliance? Is it an obligation to have your list of priorities? or do we allow people the freedom to choose?

I feel like I'm a broken record at this point, I'm not certain I've expressed myself any more clearly now than before... I suppose I'll just have to wait and see how you respond.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:40 am

Mad Man P wrote:Bob, I believe you are being incredibly uncharitable in your interpretation of me and I don't understand why...

Well, I did offer you an explanation of why I think that your objection is in itself uncharitable, but you don’t engage with what I say, but push it aside.
Mad Man P wrote:I'm very weary of rescuing those who suffer, by plunging other people into misery. I don't mind "making things better" but I don't think ANYTHING is better than nothing, we can very easily make things worse if we are not careful in how we diagnose the problem and how we choose to treat it... and sometimes it may be the case that there is no cure, that isn't worse than the disease.

With this attitude I couldn’t have gone into nursing. Since when does helping someone “plunge other people into misery”? It sounds like you are in a parallel universe, but you are only up the road in Denmark. I know that people are not “plunged” into misery by caritative action, but instead helpers are often enthused by noticing that they can make a difference. There maybe setbacks along the way, but when you have been working with terminally ill people, every smile and every effort that a sick person makes to overcome their illness is a bonus. We all die, so it is always a delaying of the unavoidable, and making that delay as pleasant as possible. We can all make our time miserable by just not doing anything, that is easy. I find it better to find ways of making our time a little better than before.

Mad Man P wrote:Merely because you express sympathy for those who suffer, does not make you wise or cautious or well equipped to offer solutions... the unintended consequences of an ill considered intervention may well bring about a worse outcome. My advising caution and a dispassionate examination of the dangers of either side of the balance, you would paint as both cynical and selfish for reasons I can't comprehend.

It is quite easy – procrastination. Procrastination refers to a behaviour characterized by the fact that tasks are either not completed or are completed only after a very long time and often too late, despite existing opportunities and abilities. Instead, alternative activities are often performed that are relatively more pleasant and/or provide immediate reinforcement (e.g., binging soap series). It leads to subjective suffering, as the affected persons do not complete their tasks at all or only with great effort.

We suffer in our societies under procrastination, and it is a sign of apathy, or perhaps boredom, and not engaging with the world. Instead, an illusory world is imagined, in which there is nothing to do, or it would be wise to hold back. The world is just a lot of fun for some people, and they blend out anything they could do to help things get better.

Mad Man P wrote:We do not have infinite resources, time or attention... we must priorities, it's a practical necessity, no matter how distasteful it may be to you.
If you did not love your child more than the local orphans, then you'd adopt every orphan you ever met.
If they all were to ask you for help, but you only had the time to help one, which one would you choose?
If there was only enough food for one child, and all children would die without you... who would you feed?

This is just ridiculous. These are excuses, not arguments. You start with your immediate surroundings and move outwards as you can. Just by expanding your area of influence a little, you have made a difference, and if others do the same, we broaden our field of influence even more. If you set out to save the world you will overreach and probably not achieve much, but if you move outwards in the way I said, encouraging others to do the same, you achieve more. The attitude, “If I can’t save them all, I won’t start” is really a lie, and people who say that don’t want to start in the first place.

Mad Man P wrote:The real world offers us such dilemmas every day, both large and small... from who we spend our free time with to who's life we'd save or what cause we'd advance with our finite resources.
Those choices, more than any vacuous declarations of love, show who and what you love and how much.
And if you think you can offer 8 billion people the same personal attention and care... you are mistaken.

So you see your life as an array of dilemmas, not as an array of possibilities? It starts with showing respect to everyone you meet, being alert and giving assistance to show that respect. It starts with listening to the people around you, hearing their concerns and thinking about what or who could help. It starts with treating people with the respect that you would like for yourself. This behaviour is contagious, and people who are greeted on the street start greeting others. People who are listened to begin listening to others. Of course, it isn’t perfect, or immediately a success, but perseverance and integrity make that difference.

I was told I made a difference wherever I went when I was in higher management, just by being friendly, greeting the people by name, showing my respect. People have all the needs of the Maslow’s motivation model, and if they lack basic physiological needs, that’s where to start. If they lack safety and security, we can look at that problem. But we can help them feel as though they belong and show them charity, just by being friendly, or giving them esteem. You just need a little imagination.

Mad Man P wrote:Right now there are children who are dying of starvation... you and your children would be left on that very same brink if you were to treat all children as your own and distribute your wealth to feed as many as possible.
You might argue, that if we made a collective effort, we might share the load and make it possible... but what if someone didn't want to contribute and instead wished to invest his excess to some other project, like the advance of technology or science, or the quality of education? What if he wasn't alone in that desire? do we force compliance? Is it an obligation to have your list of priorities? or do we allow people the freedom to choose?

I feel like I'm a broken record at this point, I'm not certain I've expressed myself any more clearly now than before... I suppose I'll just have to wait and see how you respond.

As far as the distribution of wealth is concerned, most traditions consider a tenth to be enough to invest in projects for the community, as well as the wider community. That means it depends on how much you have as to how much you invest. It is also advice, not a law. However, simplifying our lives has proven to be mentally beneficial, so it may be that a full tenth is better. It is also possible to do it in a manner that is less obvious. We invite the widows in our apartment house to a barbeque in our garden, which makes giving all the more pleasurable and benefits the atmosphere in the house as well. There are many ways to give, we have an imagination after all.

There is a rule when you are nursing: “Don’t lay down and die with the patient” It is meant figuratively, of course, but helpers who melt in empathy can’t help. It means that you have to retain a certain inner distance to be able to help. It doesn’t mean keeping your distance physically, but mentally. You don’t give up your intelligence when helping, but you help diligently. You make the use of the resources as best you can, including yourself. If you expire after a day, who’s going to help tomorrow?

As far as compliance is concerned, that wasn’t even the subject at hand. I have always believed in empowering people, giving them the ability or the skills to do what is necessary, which is also the spiritual way. Encouraging spiritual practises has to do with empowerment, helping people discover what they can do, rather than making them do it. It is about finding a new focus, realizing that we are part of a cosmic unity with all life, with abilities that we weren’t aware of. If people don’t comply, well that is their loss. As you said, there is enough to do without worrying about those who don’t want to do anything.

I am looking for ways to change the sad situation we seem to doggedly return over and over again, not conquer and dominate the world. I’m not sure how you got that idea.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby felix dakat » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:07 pm

I think most of the people who are doing what you suggest are flying under the radar as far as mass media is concerned, Bob.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:27 pm

Bob wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:We do not have infinite resources, time or attention... we must priorities, it's a practical necessity, no matter how distasteful it may be to you.
If you did not love your child more than the local orphans, then you'd adopt every orphan you ever met.
If they all were to ask you for help, but you only had the time to help one, which one would you choose?
If there was only enough food for one child, and all children would die without you... who would you feed?

This is just ridiculous. These are excuses, not arguments. You start with your immediate surroundings and move outwards as you can. Just by expanding your area of influence a little, you have made a difference, and if others do the same, we broaden our field of influence even more. If you set out to save the world you will overreach and probably not achieve much, but if you move outwards in the way I said, encouraging others to do the same, you achieve more. The attitude, “If I can’t save them all, I won’t start” is really a lie, and people who say that don’t want to start in the first place.


Bob, you've just made my point and don't even realize it. Yes, that is exactly how it goes... If you can't save them all, you'll save you and yours (those around you)... and you certainly can't save them all.
That's exactly what tribalism is... you trying to save you and yours, while others do the same. Everyone's the center of their own sphere of care and concern which you recommend pushing as far out as possible (and I agree) and while there is a great deal of overlap locally, there won't be as you get further out. Conflicts of interest arise as a consequence of there not being infinite resources and different people having different priorities of who to save from what.

So you see your life as an array of dilemmas, not as an array of possibilities? It starts with showing respect to everyone you meet, being alert and giving assistance to show that respect. It starts with listening to the people around you, hearing their concerns and thinking about what or who could help. It starts with treating people with the respect that you would like for yourself. This behaviour is contagious, and people who are greeted on the street start greeting others. People who are listened to begin listening to others. Of course, it isn’t perfect, or immediately a success, but perseverance and integrity make that difference.


I understand the basics of cooperation, Bob... I don't know if you realize this, but you are taking my argument to the extreme of not helping anyone at all and arguing how you might start... but then complain when I balance that with it's natural limit, by arguing the impossibility of trying to help everyone and you ask why I go to the extreme... You end up moralizing to me as though to a child and consequently I have to ignore most of what you say, because it's trivial and irrelevant, at best... Or read more uncharitably, self aggrandizing moral masterbation.

I was told I made a difference wherever I went when I was in higher management.


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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:06 pm

I cannot repeat this enough. Sorry if you think I’m spamming or trolling this in the thread...

The only hope is to change the entire structure of existence itself.

What I’m looking at currently is placing my patch into the eternal form realm that an infinite number of beings use to perceive reality so I can reach them all at once. Otherwise, it’s impossible to reach an infinite number of beings.

I’ll repeat this again.

The purpose of life is to give every being everything that they want at the expense of not one single being forever.

The biggest problem in existence is the, “I don’t want this to be happening to me” problem. That’s the only problem that needs to be solved for all being and beings.

It’s that simple.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:33 pm

Mad Man P wrote:Bob, you've just made my point and don't even realize it. Yes, that is exactly how it goes... If you can't save them all, you'll save you and yours (those around you)... and you certainly can't save them all.
That's exactly what tribalism is... you trying to save you and yours, while others do the same. Everyone's the center of their own sphere of care and concern which you recommend pushing as far out as possible (and I agree) and while there is a great deal of overlap locally, there won't be as you get further out. Conflicts of interest arise as a consequence of there not being infinite resources and different people having different priorities of who to save from what.

When you look at what I was initially talking about, a change of mindset, by which we could overcome tribalism, you can see that with your emphasis on helping people, you took the thread off centre. My push back was to show that your terminology, suggesting that helping is somehow damaging, was not true. Somehow we got caught up in caritative action, which I have shown is not impossible, unless of course, as you suggested, we would try to save the whole world in one swoop.

Mad Man P wrote:I understand the basics of cooperation, Bob... I don't know if you realize this, but you are taking my argument to the extreme of not helping anyone at all and arguing how you might start... but then complain when I balance that with it's natural limit, by arguing the impossibility of trying to help everyone and you ask why I go to the extreme... You end up moralizing to me as though to a child and consequently I have to ignore most of what you say, because it's trivial and irrelevant, at best... Or read more uncharitably, self aggrandizing moral masterbation.

Okay, so you dispute the language you used, but it’s there to read. It is because I have worked in a caritative institution that I know that small efforts go a long way, like the examples I spoke about. Perhaps you feel that my mentioning my experience in the field is self-aggrandizing, but what else can I use to show what is possible. If someone tells me that something is impossible, but I have been part of an organization that did it, I can only give you my experience as an example.

I’m afraid that I have reacted to your individual statements, which you seldom do, instead you write in general sweeping statements, like “plunging other people into misery” through “ill-considered intervention.” It doesn’t help when you imply that helpers could love their children less than local orphans or be brought into a dilemma because they can’t help everybody. You suggest that I think I “can offer 8 billion people the same personal attention and care”, which is clearly overstating when I was asking how we can move towards each other and make things possible. I think that you should reconsider how you reacted to me and take at least some of the responsibility for our failed conversation.

However, I would like to return to my initial subject of how we can develop so that we can build a future for as many people as possible. What is the spiritual basis we need to achieve this? Is there a common denominator, like I suggested, in a non-dual spirituality which can encompass the various traditions of the world, and avoid conflicts over cultural perspectives?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:38 pm

Ecmandu wrote:I cannot repeat this enough. Sorry if you think I’m spamming or trolling this in the thread...

The only hope is to change the entire structure of existence itself.

What I’m looking at currently is placing my patch into the eternal form realm that an infinite number of beings use to perceive reality so I can reach them all at once. Otherwise, it’s impossible to reach an infinite number of beings.

I’ll repeat this again.

The purpose of life is to give every being everything that they want at the expense of not one single being forever.

The biggest problem in existence is the, “I don’t want this to be happening to me” problem. That’s the only problem that needs to be solved for all being and beings.

It’s that simple.

I’m sorry if I gave you that impression, but nothing is “that simple”, especially not a change to the entire structure of existence itself.

I may be ignorant, but I don’t know what you mean by, “placing my patch into the eternal form realm”. That is just a string of words to me. You would have to expand on that.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:43 pm

felix dakat wrote:I think most of the people who are doing what you suggest are flying under the radar as far as mass media is concerned, Bob.

That is clearly true, they're busy helping people :lol:

But my initial thoughts went out to find a common basis for coming together and overcoming the strife that religions and ideologies have been caught up in. We have discovered the fact that non-duality is far more widely distributed than we thought and seems to me to be a good place to start.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby felix dakat » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:04 pm

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:I think most of the people who are doing what you suggest are flying under the radar as far as mass media is concerned, Bob.

That is clearly true, they're busy helping people :lol:

But my initial thoughts went out to find a common basis for coming together and overcoming the strife that religions and ideologies have been caught up in. We have discovered the fact that non-duality is far more widely distributed than we thought and seems to me to be a good place to start.


Does the history of those who became aware of non duality support optimism? Many were persecuted in their time and only posthumously were their teaching accepted and appreciated. Why would w expect that to go differently today?
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:08 pm

Bob wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:Bob, you've just made my point and don't even realize it. Yes, that is exactly how it goes... If you can't save them all, you'll save you and yours (those around you)... and you certainly can't save them all.
That's exactly what tribalism is... you trying to save you and yours, while others do the same. Everyone's the center of their own sphere of care and concern which you recommend pushing as far out as possible (and I agree) and while there is a great deal of overlap locally, there won't be as you get further out. Conflicts of interest arise as a consequence of there not being infinite resources and different people having different priorities of who to save from what.

When you look at what I was initially talking about, a change of mindset, by which we could overcome tribalism, you can see that with your emphasis on helping people, you took the thread off centre. My push back was to show that your terminology, suggesting that helping is somehow damaging, was not true. Somehow we got caught up in caritative action, which I have shown is not impossible, unless of course, as you suggested, we would try to save the whole world in one swoop.


This is confused... you identify tribalism as a problem that hurts people.
You are not currently disputing that the motive to help LOCAL people is the basis of tribalism... which is the point I made.
Your argument makes no sense, you can't have it both ways... Either what I'm arguing above is false, or you can't help a local group of people without generating conflicts of interest and kicking off tribalism which hurts people.
How do you square that circle?

That's what I've been trying to get an answer to... from the beginning.
Don't get me wrong... I am hoping you'll say something amazing that will convince me, sure would be nice to have a solution to that problem.

I think that you should reconsider how you reacted to me and take at least some of the responsibility for our failed conversation.


I believe of the two of us, I'm thus far the only one to have admitted to fault... and attempted to restate things more clearly when misunderstood.
I'm fully aware that I am a flawed human being capable of misunderstanding and poor communication... but I'm seeing no such humility or charity from you.

What you are arguing is, “don’t start changing things, I’m doing okay with how it is!” If you don’t want to get up and make a difference, to help make it better, then of course everything that other people are trying becomes a threat to you. I think you know it too, but can’t as yet admit it.


You know me so well...
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Meno_ » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:16 pm

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:I think most of the people who are doing what you suggest are flying under the radar as far as mass media is concerned, Bob.

That is clearly true, they're busy helping people :lol:

But my initial thoughts went out to find a common basis for coming together and overcoming the strife that religions and ideologies have been caught up in. We have discovered the fact that non-duality is far more widely distributed than we thought and seems to me to be a good place to start.



That distribution , is hampered by the technologically misunderstood gaging of what the weather forecast really involves. That part may be available to those who may in the position to really start the progression to uncover the basis of a preconceived non duality; and it's extended significance.

But then, such progress has a sliver lining in it's own Achilles heel: that is, ironically destructive within it's own sensibility.
The undistributed part that may be grossly underestimated , of those who hold to such non duality, may , turn skeptical when finding it intransitive and prepossesive on merely a pretextual ambiguity.

The media, as politically insensitivity perceived, does factor in variable personal biases on basis of here 2nd Amendment rights: and it is still within personal choices that can or cannot determine that choice.

That choice undercuts the power of the message that implies a large array under the radar who can really piecemeal start the fire to unify opinion; whereas the idea of a total structural change among those who make policy is much more likely to make that difference into a likely forecast.

That pattern has been built into the system with a rigor that may defy uncovering something elementary complex as that, at this point.

Hate to argue for or against it's own sake, but hard won patterns are even harder to break.


Tribalism fits into the same pattern as feeding apportioned or disproportionate variances among those who must swallow that to barely survive identification within a tribe, or those marginalized to a center of where their applicability of survival is no longer identifiable. Do those kinds of people make a difference, or are they by necessity allowed to fall by the cracks because they are the ones whose circle of recognized resources do not allow but the act of letting them fall through the cracks?

The fact that these margins occupy more and more of the circle should factor in a design which allows it to square away with an increased future content to be reckoned with.

After all this is post future shock of 1984.
Last edited by Meno_ on Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:26 pm

Mad Man P wrote:This is confused... you identify tribalism as a problem that hurts people.
You are not currently disputing that the motive to help LOCAL people is the basis of tribalism... which is the point I made.

What you mean is social bonding, which helps to keep individuals committed to the group. That is clearly not a bad thing, as long as it based on a mutual agreement. That way both can benefit from the commitment. But tribalism is about keeping individuals from wandering off or joining other groups and also leads to bullying when a tribal member is unwilling to conform to the politics of the collective, especially when dictated by a despotic leader. Tribes are often authoritarian, which is important in some situations, but not all the time. This causes inner rivalries and disputes.

The idea of integral theory is to integrate tribalism as an aspect of human development and as a necessary part of growing up, but with the intention of maturing to a holistic mind-set, and a cosmos-centred, both individual and trans-personal self, on the way to a realization of oneness, where wisdom, joy and love are exhibited.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:28 pm

felix dakat wrote:Does the history of those who became aware of non duality support optimism? Many were persecuted in their time and only posthumously were their teaching accepted and appreciated. Why would w expect that to go differently today?

For the answer to that, see my answer on your wholeness thread.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Meno_ » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:51 pm

Bob said:


"The idea of integral theory is to integrate tribalism as an aspect of human development and as a necessary part of growing up, but with the intention of maturing to a holistic mind-set, and a cosmos-centred, both individual and trans-personal self, on the way to a realization of oneness, where wisdom, joy and love are exhibited."


Meno says:


" Hello Bob:


How can an integration be even conceived, as a necessary tool within which the ability to recognize such mode of socially aware transaction not be a form belabor as befits certain past enslaved people with indefinable survival reasons?

Sure, recent past may be deleted for furtherance of such optimism, but the long stretch before that shows primordial analysis to justify it.

What makes 'specialness' special is the new found discovery of these analytics' significance of what appears to those marginalized and oppressed( colonies, very thin crusted tribes, etc) to whom mainstream is beginning to wake up to-with various modes of readjustment.

Facts such as these are really mitigated to the extent which could touch basic types of resistance under the categorical tribalism of future past colonialism.

A fact that can not be buried with a hatchet. That kind of 'integration is a deconstruction in progress.

We practice that kind of 'tribalism here as well, a forum dedicated to rise above the narrow forms that it could take, where information could be even less informed .
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Meno_ » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:02 pm

I am not implying to knock off optimism, just find a solid ground where the interjections introduced may not be as necessary as the claims for it being made .( the advance from pessimistic roots)
Last edited by Meno_ on Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:04 pm

Bob wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I cannot repeat this enough. Sorry if you think I’m spamming or trolling this in the thread...

The only hope is to change the entire structure of existence itself.

What I’m looking at currently is placing my patch into the eternal form realm that an infinite number of beings use to perceive reality so I can reach them all at once. Otherwise, it’s impossible to reach an infinite number of beings.

I’ll repeat this again.

The purpose of life is to give every being everything that they want at the expense of not one single being forever.

The biggest problem in existence is the, “I don’t want this to be happening to me” problem. That’s the only problem that needs to be solved for all being and beings.

It’s that simple.

I’m sorry if I gave you that impression, but nothing is “that simple”, especially not a change to the entire structure of existence itself.

I may be ignorant, but I don’t know what you mean by, “placing my patch into the eternal form realm”. That is just a string of words to me. You would have to expand on that.


The eternal form realm is the only non sentient being in existence.

Even a sidewalk incarnated as 10 people co creating its incarnation as concrete workers is a sentient being.

The eternal form realm is abstractions of perfection and category.

Most importantly, category.

Every tree you see is different infinitely than another tree. Even from the same species. If we used infinite precision we’d have to give each tree a different species and a different name. That’d require such a massive amount of brain power; it’d be infinite.

What eternal forms do is allow us to abstract category from infinite difference. We can say, “look at all these trees; they’re beautiful”. As opposed to cars!!! Why are trees different than cars?!?!

Anyone interested in helping an infinite number of beings simultaneously cannot be done by sending a shockwave through all existence... that shockwave will NEVER hit all beings... infinity = motion. This means that because infinity never ends; trying to be itself, it causes motion to occur.

In order to reach an infinite number of beings; you have to access the eternal form realm and update it; every being uses the eternal form realm.

Hopefully that was easy enough.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:17 pm

Everyone is looking for a ground or a constant, but it is the MIND, which is like a ship that can turn against conditions and chance. It does not get more wild than that. (inspired by Simone Weil)
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:30 am

Meno, I have taken the liberty of "transliterating" what you wrote, I hope you don't mind.
This distribution is hindered by the technologically misunderstood assessment of what weather forecasting really entails. This part may be available to those able to uncover the basis of a preconceived non-duality and its extended meaning. But such progress has a splinter in its own Achilles heel: that is, it is ironically destructive of its own sensibility. The underappreciated portion of those who hold to such non-duality may become sceptical if they find it intransitive and ostensibly ambiguous.

I understand you as saying that non-duality, in the form that it is being discovered in traditionally dualistic societies, may be felt to be emptied of its meaning by those in a traditionally non-dual society. This is also something that Buddhists from traditionally Buddhist societies have said about western Buddhism, with which they can’t fully identify. The other way around, western Buddhists are often surprised at the extended practises and beliefs of Buddhists in the east.

I agree with you to some degree, but I also see a number of developments in science, which are pointing in the same direction. I freely admit that these voices have been speaking for some time now, so that some of the original voices have long died, which means that to the larger western society these thoughts and ideas are still unknown. There are also a number of public speakers who are actively preventing a paradigm change, but the number of voices is increasing that speak for a change.

The media, perceived to be politically insensitive, considers variable personal biases on the basis of 2nd Amendment rights. This choice undermines the power of the message, which implies a large group under the radar that can really light the fire piece by piece to unify opinion; whereas the idea of total structural change among those making policy is much more likely to make that difference a likely prediction. This pattern has been built into the system with a rigor that should make it impossible at this point to uncover something so elementally complex. I hate to argue for the sake of it, but hard-won patterns are even harder to break.

I understand you as saying that the freedoms that have been fought for in western society are likely to be so ingrained as to prevent a further “revolution” of thought, especially if it is a paradigm change for those in the west. This seems to me to be the problem of the strategies for world crises, which tend to be a bit “heave ho!” and not differentiated to achieve the best result. It may indeed be a case of naïve optimism that I am expressing but considering the fact that people have died to propel humanity forwards, I think that the risk today is relatively small. The larger probability is that it will just come to nothing.

Tribalism fits the same pattern as feeding assigned or disproportionate deviance among those who must swallow it to survive just enough to be identified within a tribe, or those who have been marginalized to the point where their chances of survival are no longer discernible. Do these types of people make a difference, or are they inevitably dropped through the cracks because they are the ones whose circle of recognized resources does not allow for it, but only the act of dropping them through the cracks?

Again, I understand you as saying that tribalism will persevere because the people on the fringe that are making the discoveries that lead to a non-dualistic perspective are irrelevant to larger society and haven’t got the clout to enforce a change of this kind. You may well be right, although in the past, there have been paradigm changes that grew from modest beginnings. As I said, in my case it is a hope.

The fact that these margins are taking up more and more of the circle should be incorporated into a design that allows us to expect increased future content. After all, this is the post-future shock of 1984.

I would understand you as saying that we need a design that could increase future content and agree, which begs the question whether anybody has an idea?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:53 am

felix dakat wrote:Does the history of those who became aware of non duality support optimism? Many were persecuted in their time and only posthumously were their teaching accepted and appreciated. Why would w expect that to go differently today?

Due to the fact that my answer on the wholeness thread wasn’t adequate to answer this question, I will reiterate, perhaps with words that make more sense.

As you showed, the Christian form of non-duality implies taking up the cross as the way of self-abnegation. As I said, this is the “difficult teaching” that even when Jesus was with his disciples, made people turn away. It is an issue that Meno (if I understood him correctly) was pointing to from a different perspective. Will people understand non-duality, and even if they do, will they accept it?

Our advantage today is that we are not crucified or forced to drink hemlock if we advance new ideas, although some still have their careers destroyed or experience defamation. Our big problem today is more the fact that there are so many new ideas, some of them merely conspiracy theories, which tend to block our view or distract us in a myriad of ways. The fact that non-duality is an age-old paradigm, which does in fact embrace most traditions around, may be a reason for optimism. But it is a hope I am expressing, which can only expand like ripples in a pond if the pebble has enough weight.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:40 pm

Bob wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:This is confused... you identify tribalism as a problem that hurts people.
You are not currently disputing that the motive to help LOCAL people is the basis of tribalism... which is the point I made.

What you mean is social bonding, which helps to keep individuals committed to the group. That is clearly not a bad thing, as long as it based on a mutual agreement. That way both can benefit from the commitment.


What is it that they are commiting to if not prioritising each other over others, do you think?

But tribalism is about keeping individuals from wandering off or joining other groups and also leads to bullying when a tribal member is unwilling to conform to the politics of the collective, especially when dictated by a despotic leader. Tribes are often authoritarian, which is important in some situations, but not all the time. This causes inner rivalries and disputes.


Obviously, you and I have a very different working definition of "tribalism". You seem to think it's only ever tribalism if it's internally dysfunctional in some way, prefering to call it "social bonding" when it's not.
Where I see the problem of tribalism not as causing internal dysfunction (at least not necessarily), as if it did, we would not likely have evolved to be tribal... but that it inevitably causes conflict between tribes as we compete for limited resources.

The idea of integral theory is to integrate tribalism as an aspect of human development and as a necessary part of growing up, but with the intention of maturing to a holistic mind-set, and a cosmos-centred, both individual and trans-personal self, on the way to a realization of oneness, where wisdom, joy and love are exhibited.


That's all gibberish to me, Bob
Could you please translate that into something actionable?
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm

Mad Man P wrote:What is it that they are commiting to if not prioritising each other over others, do you think?

I think that the discussion about whether to exclude or include people in beneficial action has gone on for too long in a thread that is looking for ways to come together and overcome the differences that have for too long been the cause of conflicts. You seem to be for an either-or approach rather than looking for ways to help those near as well as those far off. In terms of foreign policy, it has been sensible to assist countries in need to help themselves, although, unfortunately, many despotic leaders in such countries have understood “helping themselves” in a different way.

Mad Man P wrote:Obviously, you and I have a very different working definition of "tribalism". You seem to think it's only ever tribalism if it's internally dysfunctional in some way, prefering to call it "social bonding" when it's not.
Where I see the problem of tribalism not as causing internal dysfunction (at least not necessarily), as if it did, we would not likely have evolved to be tribal... but that it inevitably causes conflict between tribes as we compete for limited resources.

I explained to you where my understanding of tribalism comes from, but you said it was gibberish, but there you go. Another definition would be: “The state of existing as a tribe, or a very strong feeling of loyalty to your tribe. a very strong feeling of loyalty to a political or social group, so that you support them whatever they do.” (Definition of tribalism from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

Here the agreement with my definition lies in the words “whatever they do,” which is the problem we have seen over centuries, and whilst it is supportive to be fans of a football club, regardless of whether they win or lose, if your patrol mercilessly kills dozens of civilians, just because they got in the way, it wouldn’t be right to cover that up. Two extremes, I know, but it illustrates the problem that tribalism has. Therefore, you can see that context plays a big role, and whether your “tribe” oversteps a moral boundary.

But like I said, this thread is asking whether there is hope in finding a common denominator, like compassion, or like non-duality, or anything else that could overcome the divides we have that are so destructive. There were, for example, scenes one Christmas on the Somme, when German and British troops celebrated Christmas together, even playing football, revealing that there were common bonds that exist despite the political resolution to fight a war. Could a realisation that we are part of a cosmic unity, that self is just a mask we use to interact, but which will fall when the play is over, help to unify humanity at some stage? What could be the first steps towards that?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:23 pm

“Had I lived in Palestine, in the days of Jesus of Nazareth, I would have washed his feet, not with my tears, but with my heart's blood!”
~ Swami Vivekananda

"Some of the first human beings in whom the new consciousness emerged fully became the great teachers of humanity, such as Jesus, although their teachings were greatly misunderstood, especially when they turned into organized religion. They were the first manifestations of the flowering of human consciousness.
Was Jesus divine? Yes. But so are you. You just haven't realized it yet."
~ Eckhart Tolle

"Jesus Christ knew he was God. So wake up and find out eventually who you really are. In our culture, of course, they’ll say you’re crazy and you’re blasphemous, and they’ll either put you in jail or in a nut house (which is pretty much the same thing). However, if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, ‘My goodness, I’ve just discovered that I’m God,’ they’ll laugh and say, ‘Oh, congratulations, at last you found out.’"
~ Alan Watts

“I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word.
If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity, as Jesus Christ taught it, of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity.”
~ Albert Einstein

“Jesus Christ has brought light to the world. We hope that children like him will be born to us every moment of our daily lives.
Jesus Christ is still manifesting himself in many thousands of ways. He is manifesting himself all around you. We need to be alert in order to recognize his manifestations. If you are not mindful or attentive, you will miss him.”
~ Thich Nhat Hanh

“Yes, Jesus was a fully enlightened being just like Buddha.
Jesus lived a very human life, utterly human – with great godliness, but he lived a human life. He is a rare master in that way. He moved with gamblers, drunkards; there is every possibility that once in a while he may have played poker. And I don’t see that there is anything wrong in it. He used to drink wine, he enjoyed it. And I don’t think that there is anything wrong in it once in a while; it is sheer playfulness. Don’t become addicted to it. He was not addicted to it, but he participated in the ordinary life. There is every possibility that Mary Magdalene fell in a very human kind of love with him, and it cannot be just one-sided – he may have responded. But Christians will feel offended – a prostitute falling in love with Jesus! And Jesus may have responded in a human way. In fact, he was such a courageous man, such a rebel, that he must have responded in a human way.
The whole effort of a Jesus or a Buddha is nothing but how to undo that which society has done to you.”
~ Osho

"When Jesus said, 'Except through me', he was speaking of the Self, not the body, but people have misunderstood this. On another occasion Jesus said, ‘The kingdom of heaven is within you.’ He did not mean that it is within the body. This 'you’ Jesus spoke of is infinite consciousness."
~ Annamalai Swami

"There is only the infinite self of pure Awareness, refracted into an apparent multiplicity and diversity of finite forms, but never ceasing to be itself. This is what Jesus meant when he said, “The kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it.” All the great sages from all times and all places have said or expressed this in one way or another. This is the one true revolution. At the root of all desire for change is this ultimate desire: to know only the reality of all experience; to know only love. Unless and until the problems facing humanity are traced back to their ultimate source – the ignoring of this reality – they may be temporarily alleviated but will never be truly solved."
~ Rupert Spira

“Let us meditate until we perceive the Infinite Christ reigning in our own hearts. Let us learn to love those who love us not; and to forgive those who do ill against us. Let us break all our mental boundaries of color, creed, and nationality, and receive all – even our inanimate and animal brothers – in the endless, all embracing arms of our Christ Consciousness. This will be a true and fitting celebration of the coming of Jesus Christ to this earth.”
~ Paramahansa Yogananda

“Peace is not the absence of trouble, but the presence of Christ.”
~ Sheila Walsh
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:51 pm

Bob wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:What is it that they are commiting to if not prioritising each other over others, do you think?

I think that the discussion about whether to exclude or include people in beneficial action has gone on for too long in a thread that is looking for ways to come together and overcome the differences that have for too long been the cause of conflicts. You seem to be for an either-or approach rather than looking for ways to help those near as well as those far off.


If you and yours were suffering due to lack of medicine or food or some other such necessity and the other tribe had access but equal need for such things (no excess to spare). You are not likely to accept that the fate of you and yours is to die... nor would you have much success convincing the other tribe to share with you, what they can't spare... and objectively a war would kill more people than privation would. What's worse is that even when you're not in a state of privation and desperation, you can be well aware that should push come to shove, a tribal war will happen and so you might prepare for the worst, while hoping for the best, which is where the fight for dominance kicks in. Once your tribe is dominant, you can afford to be generous and we very much tend to be.

The only alternative I can think of to try to combat that, is to transfer your primary loyalty away from the people closest to you, away from your tribe and into some abstract "common ground" whether it be service to a god, a moral code, religious or political ideology... such that you might sacrifice the well being or possibly even the life of those closest to you, for the sake of this supposed "greater good", instead of sacrificing the greater good for your tribe, as we are prone to do. The problem in that, is that this monolith, as it amasses subscribers for whom it is the pinnacle of priority, tends to becomes tyrannical and adversarial to free thinkers... As it is an abstract you are loyal to, your concerns become untethered from anyone's well being and adherence to the abstract becomes primary... you become what we might call a fanatic.

Wherever your loyalties lie, it's only when they are tested, that you'll notice the liabilities of it... You can throw some everyday mundane circumstance at me about how you might help your neighbor carry groceries or donate some money to help the homeless or some such, but those are not circumstances that are testing loyalties... those only test your generosity. Catching your friend and neighbor stealing and turning him in, that would be a test of loyalty.

The ideal solution in my mind, is to generate a circumstance where our loyalties are very rarely tested... but it seem impossible to me to generate a circumstance where they are NEVER tested.
Though perhaps infinite resources might make that possible... we're not exactly entertaining fantasies here.

In short: I'm unable to see a clear path to ending human conflict and division without swinging the pendulum toward tyranny... and I've laid out the problem as I see it.

Could a realisation that we are part of a cosmic unity, that self is just a mask we use to interact, but which will fall when the play is over, help to unify humanity at some stage? What could be the first steps towards that?


My answer to that first question is a resounding no... and therefore I don't much care what the answer to the second question might be.
I have to assume, given your complaint about what I wish to discuss being off track, you're not interested in discussing the first question... You'd rather take the yes for granted and discuss the second question.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Meno_ » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:58 pm

Bob wrote:Meno, I have taken the liberty of "transliterating" what you wrote, I hope you don't mind.
This distribution is hindered by the technologically misunderstood assessment of what weather forecasting really entails. This part may be available to those able to uncover the basis of a preconceived non-duality and its extended meaning. But such progress has a splinter in its own Achilles heel: that is, it is ironically destructive of its own sensibility. The underappreciated portion of those who hold to such non-duality may become sceptical if they find it intransitive and ostensibly ambiguous.

I understand you as saying that non-duality, in the form that it is being discovered in traditionally dualistic societies, may be felt to be emptied of its meaning by those in a traditionally non-dual society. This is also something that Buddhists from traditionally Buddhist societies have said about western Buddhism, with which they can’t fully identify. The other way around, western Buddhists are often surprised at the extended practises and beliefs of Buddhists in the east.

I agree with you to some degree, but I also see a number of developments in science, which are pointing in the same direction. I freely admit that these voices have been speaking for some time now, so that some of the original voices have long died, which means that to the larger western society these thoughts and ideas are still unknown. There are also a number of public speakers who are actively preventing a paradigm change, but the number of voices is increasing that speak for a change.

The media, perceived to be politically insensitive, considers variable personal biases on the basis of 2nd Amendment rights. This choice undermines the power of the message, which implies a large group under the radar that can really light the fire piece by piece to unify opinion; whereas the idea of total structural change among those making policy is much more likely to make that difference a likely prediction. This pattern has been built into the system with a rigor that should make it impossible at this point to uncover something so elementally complex. I hate to argue for the sake of it, but hard-won patterns are even harder to break.

I understand you as saying that the freedoms that have been fought for in western society are likely to be so ingrained as to prevent a further “revolution” of thought, especially if it is a paradigm change for those in the west. This seems to me to be the problem of the strategies for world crises, which tend to be a bit “heave ho!” and not differentiated to achieve the best result. It may indeed be a case of naïve optimism that I am expressing but considering the fact that people have died to propel humanity forwards, I think that the risk today is relatively small. The larger probability is that it will just come to nothing.

Tribalism fits the same pattern as feeding assigned or disproportionate deviance among those who must swallow it to survive just enough to be identified within a tribe, or those who have been marginalized to the point where their chances of survival are no longer discernible. Do these types of people make a difference, or are they inevitably dropped through the cracks because they are the ones whose circle of recognized resources does not allow for it, but only the act of dropping them through the cracks?

Again, I understand you as saying that tribalism will persevere because the people on the fringe that are making the discoveries that lead to a non-dualistic perspective are irrelevant to larger society and haven’t got the clout to enforce a change of this kind. You may well be right, although in the past, there have been paradigm changes that grew from modest beginnings. As I said, in my case it is a hope.

The fact that these margins are taking up more and more of the circle should be incorporated into a design that allows us to expect increased future content. After all, this is the post-future shock of 1984.

I would understand you as saying that we need a design that could increase future content and agree, which begs the question whether anybody has an idea?





and thank You for the effort..Bob.
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Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:37 am

Mad Man P wrote:If you and yours were suffering due to lack of medicine or food or some other such necessity and the other tribe had access but equal need for such things (no excess to spare). You are not likely to accept that the fate of you and yours is to die... nor would you have much success convincing the other tribe to share with you, what they can't spare... and objectively a war would kill more people than privation would. What's worse is that even when you're not in a state of privation and desperation, you can be well aware that should push come to shove, a tribal war will happen and so you might prepare for the worst, while hoping for the best, which is where the fight for dominance kicks in. Once your tribe is dominant, you can afford to be generous and we very much tend to be.

So, who are you addressing here? I am writing in a forum that is used by people in societies in which there is some semblance of social order and support. In the western countries where this is not immediately obvious, we are not (yet) in a state of civil war, and there are numerous organisations trying to provide help for people in need. However, if you foresee an internal conflict in societies for food or medicine, then all the more should we look to what we can do to alleviate the situation, because the conflict you are evoking has proven to be the least effective manner to deal with such dilemmas.

I am also looking for a way to make the first step, by acknowledging each other as human beings and part of a cosmic consciousness, in which we are all brothers and sisters. I am not yet on the pathway to sharing, but on the pathway to acknowledging, recognising, realising, that we are in this together and we need a strategy to cease armed conflicts, which cause so much suffering and, as I said, provide the least effective way to solve problems, as well as the trauma suffered even by the survivors.

Have you heard of the “Charter for Compassion”? It is a document that urges the peoples and religions of the world to embrace the core value of compassion. The charter currently is available in more than 30 languages and has been endorsed by more than two million individuals around the globe. Charter for Compassion International, the Charter's supporting organization, has enrolled 311 communities in 45 countries in its Compassionate Communities campaign and has partnered with more than 1,300 organizations to spread the Charter's message of compassion in 10 sectors: the arts, business, education, environment, healthcare, peace, religion/spirituality/interfaith, science & research, social sciences and restorative justice … On February 28, 2008, scholar and author Karen Armstrong won the TED Prize. In her acceptance speech she called for help in creating, launching and propagating a Charter for Compassion, based on the fundamental principle of the Golden Rule. (Charter for Compassion - Wikipedia)

I haven’t been so bold as to present this charter in the past, I was reaching out to feel for a readiness amongst people who take it upon themselves to talk about religion, but perhaps it is the right time to mention it.
The principle of compassion lies at the heart of all religious, ethical and spiritual traditions, calling us always to treat all others as we wish to be treated ourselves. Compassion impels us
to work tirelessly to alleviate the suffering of our fellow creatures,
to dethrone ourselves from the centre of our world and put another there, and
to honour the inviolable sanctity of every single human being, treating everybody, without
exception, with absolute justice, equity and respect.

It is also necessary in both public and private life to refrain consistently and empathically from inflicting pain. To act or speak violently out of spite, chauvinism, or self-interest, to impoverish, exploit or deny basic rights to anybody, and to incite hatred by denigrating others—even our enemies—is a denial of our common humanity.
We acknowledge that we have failed to live compassionately and that some have even increased the sum of human misery in the name of religion.
We therefore call upon all men and women to restore compassion to the centre of morality and religion to return to the ancient principle that any interpretation of scripture that breeds violence, hatred or disdain is illegitimate to ensure that youth are given accurate and respectful information about other traditions, religions, and cultures to encourage a positive appreciation of cultural and
religious diversity to cultivate an informed empathy with the suffering of all human beings—even those regarded as enemies.

We urgently need to make compassion a clear, luminous, and dynamic force in our polarized world. Rooted in a principled determination to transcend selfishness, compassion can break down political, dogmatic, ideological, and religious boundaries. Born of our deep interdependence, compassion is essential to human relationships and to a fulfilled humanity. It is the path to enlightenment, and indispensable to the creation of a just economy and a peaceful global community.


There is a website where you can find out more, and a page on that where people affirm their allegiance to the project. https://charterforcompassion.org/index. ... ter/affirm

People like Diane Kalen-Sukra have said, “Toxic culture is eroding our sense of belonging, community and well-being. Our capacity to collaborate and innovate together is also being undermined by the rising incivility and divisiveness. We need each other to address the complex challenges facing our cities and communities -- from the infrastructure deficit to climate change, homelessness, mental health and addiction issues. In order to thrive, our local democracies depend on our ability to revive the art of living and working well together.”

She, amongst others, has made courses available, with the title, “Fostering Compassionate City Culture: A Guide to Human Flourishing.” She is an accomplished speaker, advisor, educator and author of the book "Save Your City: How toxic culture kills community & what to do about it". Her core belief is that as social beings, we flourish in healthy sustainable communities where good governance, servant leadership and compassionate culture support the well-being of all.

It is an alternative to your vision of tyranny, tribal exclusion, or “transfer of primary loyalty”, and promotes instead the creating of awareness I was talking about in the original post. There are also other courses, such as “Healing the Divide,” which helps people share their truth, overcome gender dysfunction, and create community. There are courses on how to help traumatised people for compassionate initiatives, NGOS and aid organisations. These people are speaking to those who are prepared to give a little to help people come together. It is human, so it won’t be “perfect”, but it is a start. I don’t see any fanaticism, because these are professional people who have joined their resources to prevent the problems that could arise in a tribalist setting.

I get the feeling that what you are describing is a post-apocalyptic chaos that, to be honest, would be worse than you are describing. But it is the prevention of such a scenario, and a concerted effort to bring people suffering under abuses together, so that as a community they have a voice. Because this is going on, I know that there is a way, and I am trying to raise awareness for this wherever I can.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Bob
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