A look forward in hope

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:40 am

Ecmandu wrote:You really think I’m peddling lies?

Is that what this is?

May your consent be violated forever... right?

Wow. What a piece of shit I am for saying that’s the only problem in existence.

What’s my lie exactly?

I tell people that existences biggest problem is everyone’s “I don’t want this to be happening”. And that we need to solve it.

I tell people that the purpose of life is to give everyone everything that they want at the expense of nobody.

Where my big lie here?

Absolutely, you are perhaps the worst offender on this forum.

Do you not claim to save people from Hell, and offer Heaven?

Yet what do you actually do??? Do you even ladle soup to homeless orphans on the weekend? Do you ever put in any Actual work and selflessness???


Even a few self-proclaimed Christians (3 per 1 million) do actual work, from time-to-time.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:54 am

Mad Man P wrote:Merely because you express sympathy for those who suffer, does not make you wise or cautious or well equipped to offer solutions...

Isn't this the theme for the 21st Century thus far as well...

And it doesn't make you Morally Good either!!!

This is a flaw of Morality among the far-left AND the far-right, liberals and conservatives, secularists and christians.


Sympathy doesn't mean you're Good, nor that Goodness necessarily follows from it.

Ethics built on Pity, is Slave-Morality and Slave-Dialectic.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:21 am

As to Bob, the moral dilemma is obvious.

Your village does not have enough food to feed all of its children. Some will starve to death. So which children will you feed?

It doesn't need to be an Absolute example.


You have 3 children, and more than enough food, yet still you cannot feed them all equally nor should you.

Should 100 lb. teenager be fed the same as a 200 lb. teenager? How do you know what's "right/good" per person?

Should males and females be treated equally and "the same"? Or ought they be raised with different standards?


The fact, Bob, that cowards like you dodge these simple questions, demonstrates to others that you are unqualified to speak with Authority on the greater questions (that of Hope).
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:28 am

If moral standards differ per individual then how can any moral authority or sense of righteousness make sense without some degree of Tribalism/Favoritism/Kin Selection?

And, by the way, Kin Selection is the Rule of Nature, in every animal/biological specie, and dominant throughout humanity as well.

It is almost always (or simply always) Paraistism, Viruses/Disease, and Predation (usually a combination of all 3) when animals actively select against their own Kin...
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:25 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Sympathy doesn't mean you're Good, nor that Goodness necessarily follows from it.

Ethics built on Pity, is Slave-Morality and Slave-Dialectic.

Says the mental parasite, who has nothing to contribute except diatribe and supremacy garbage.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:As to Bob, the moral dilemma is obvious.

A hypothetical dilemma is just that, and where actual dilemmas occur, you act as best you can, given the circumstances. Nobody is expecting a solution to all dilemmas, but a step towards finding solutions for as many as possible shouldn’t ignored, just because it could be difficult. That is real cowardice.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The fact, Bob, that cowards like you dodge these simple questions, demonstrates to others that you are unqualified to speak with Authority on the greater questions (that of Hope).

You tell a man that has engaged in combatting problems that he is a coward for not entertaining hypothetical dilemmas? Sorry, I have work to do! I have no time for jumped up, impotent supremacists, who stand in the margins and comment on what other people are trying to do.

The people I have worked with have given me the courage to carry on in times of limited resources, when we were exhausted, or when people were dying despite our efforts. We had real problems to solve, faeces to clean up, wounds to heal, mouths to feed. There was no pondering about who to help, but we did what was necessary, as do all people who are really engaged in helping people. These are the heroes who deserve all the help we can give them, without presuming that their work is causing more harm than good.

The people who are committed, for example to the Charter of Compassion, are showing people like you how to engage with the problems of the world, and how to empower others to do the same. However, you wouldn’t, would you. You have nothing to offer …

So, back on ignore!
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:50 am

Fine with me, ignore the answers that you so desperately seek.

Hope is a precious commodity, more valuable than food, water, money, life, and not all are worthy.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:30 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Fine with me, ignore the answers that you so desperately seek.

Hope is a precious commodity, more valuable than food, water, money, life, and not all are worthy.


It ain’t about worth. Another thing Kant got wrong. So many urban myths to dispell… like God helps those who help themselves. NO—he helps those others deem a lost cause. In deeming it of others, they deem it of themselves. Gonna hurt when he helps those others. He has so many poor representatives because no representation could ever do him justice.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5995
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:48 pm

Bob wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:If you and yours were suffering due to lack of medicine or food or some other such necessity and the other tribe had access but equal need for such things (no excess to spare). You are not likely to accept that the fate of you and yours is to die... nor would you have much success convincing the other tribe to share with you, what they can't spare... and objectively a war would kill more people than privation would. What's worse is that even when you're not in a state of privation and desperation, you can be well aware that should push come to shove, a tribal war will happen and so you might prepare for the worst, while hoping for the best, which is where the fight for dominance kicks in. Once your tribe is dominant, you can afford to be generous and we very much tend to be.

So, who are you addressing here? I am writing in a forum that is used by people in societies in which there is some semblance of social order and support. In the western countries where this is not immediately obvious, we are not (yet) in a state of civil war, and there are numerous organisations trying to provide help for people in need. However, if you foresee an internal conflict in societies for food or medicine, then all the more should we look to what we can do to alleviate the situation, because the conflict you are evoking has proven to be the least effective manner to deal with such dilemmas.


You don't seem to understand what a hypothetical is, or why someone might highlight a problem by using a hypothetical. You then continue to mirror what I've already acknowledged, that once we are dominant and feel secure in our future, we tend to be generous, by pointing out how we tend to be generous in the western world, where we are largely dominant and feel secure. Though if you were to visit the more poor and neglected areas of even the wealthiest countries, you'd see actual tribes and tribal wars in the form of gangs.

Furthermore, you seem to be under the impression that I'm somehow in support of tribal war as you felt the need to tell me how it's the "least effective" manner to deal with such a dilemma... despite the fact that I expressed a similar sentiment in what you just quoted by saying "objectively a war would kill more people than privation would". Why you felt the need to inform me of something I already accounted for can only be due to your lack of comprehension, whether willful or otherwise.

The rest of your post is similarly unresponsive to what I've said... effectively ignoring me while continuing to speak about "a cosmic consciousness, in which we are all brothers and sisters."

It may be that I'm a poor communicator, but given that I've reiterated over and over... It might be worth considering, if perhaps you're the problem.
Either way at this stage I've exhausted my interest in having this discussion... Good luck with your awareness raising or proselytizing, whichever you prefer.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2818
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:45 am

Mad Man P wrote:You don't seem to understand what a hypothetical is, or why someone might highlight a problem by using a hypothetical. You then continue to mirror what I've already acknowledged, that once we are dominant and feel secure in our future, we tend to be generous, by pointing out how we tend to be generous in the western world, where we are largely dominant and feel secure. Though if you were to visit the more poor and neglected areas of even the wealthiest countries, you'd see actual tribes and tribal wars in the form of gangs.

You have managed to take a subject so off track, and I was fool enough to follow your lead. I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that your terminology was tending towards extremes and was quite negative in its outlook. This statement seems to me to underline that. By mentioning tribes and tribal wars, we return to my opening statement:
As so often in human history, we stand at a point from which we do not know exactly where the road leads. The clouds of war and destruction are ominously close, hatred echoes in countries where we didn’t expect it, and insecurity spreads across the most populous countries where war has supposedly been banished. We thought we could move into a future free of armed conflict and export the prosperity we ourselves enjoy. However, we did not reckon with the corruption, nationalism, xenophobia, disorientation, and conspiracies that we ourselves partly caused. We have not integrated people who think differently, who imagine a different future, who have their own dreams, and we have not reckoned with the militant representatives of fundamentalist faiths who believe they have to defend their religion against a rampant atheism and decadence.

As I said then, one vision that might help us achieve a semblance of hope is the idea of unity. Cosmic Unity is surprisingly a vision of ancient traditions and that you can increasingly find to be a modern theory of reality. If you notice, I am talking about “a semblance of hope” growing out of a realisation that we are one. The hope is to overcome the tribal wars, which all wars have been and still are.

On the way, you accused me of only seeing tribes as negative, but here you present your own view and speak of tribal wars. I think the problem in the breakdown of our conversation is that you have reacted to individual words and sentences and not considered the entire statement I made, or the build up of where I was going, which you also confirmed early on (“sometimes I do forget to connect the dots”). It has led to this:
Mad Man P wrote:Furthermore, you seem to be under the impression that I'm somehow in support of tribal war as you felt the need to tell me how it's the "least effective" manner to deal with such a dilemma... despite the fact that I expressed a similar sentiment in what you just quoted by saying "objectively a war would kill more people than privation would". Why you felt the need to inform me of something I already accounted for can only be due to your lack of comprehension, whether willful or otherwise.

It is because you have disregarded my opening statement, and in reply to my search for hope, told me that my statement (that if we resisted unity, it only means further conflict and suffering) was a threat. You proposed that to achieve a semblance of hope in unity, we would have to “surrender our individuality, our loved ones, our hopes and dreams, we sacrifice them to a higher power for fear of conflict and war.” Your language suggested that hoping for unity could only mean that we lose, but also (at the same time) suggest that I was talking about “winning a war”. In fact, I was doing the opposite in an attempt to find hope that could overcome wars.
The very thought of being at war is a hurdle that needs to be overcome. Instead, we could understand ourselves as all on a journey to a common goal, travelling from different beginnings, along different roads, but finally joining our experience to the collective whole.

You say that I have been “unresponsive to what I've said... effectively ignoring me”, although I addressed your statements quite pointedly. I have addressed individual lines of what people have posted, including yours. I gave you examples for what I considered contradicted your statements, some of them really going off at a tangent, and each time returned to what I was getting at. The most invective of that was your statements about tribalism, and what you thought would be the consequences of overcoming tribalism, saying in the end that my thoughts were “trading one hell for another”. To this I asked why you go to extremes, and pointed out that you were taking the discussion into areas that were irrelevant to seeking hope and a way to overcome wars and exclusion.
Mad Man P wrote:It may be that I'm a poor communicator, but given that I've reiterated over and over... It might be worth considering, if perhaps you're the problem.
Either way at this stage I've exhausted my interest in having this discussion... Good luck with your awareness raising or proselytizing, whichever you prefer.

You have said this before, but your reiteration has continually ignored my trying to show you that we are talking about first steps. I said “each journey begins with a single step, every sea is made up of single drops, your lungs take in single breaths.”

Each time you returned to statements like it “would objectively be an even worse hell,” and then said “you are being incredibly uncharitable in your interpretation of me,” although I was giving you your words back to you. You accused me of “self-aggrandizing” by resorting to showing you that I knew by personal experience that things were possible and do not “plunge other people into misery.” Your whole language was so brutal, I asked you whether “you see your life as an array of dilemmas, not as an array of possibilities?”

You accused me of “taking my argument to the extreme of not helping anyone at all and arguing how you might start” but again, I was giving your words back to you and not taking the worst scenarios you were presenting as a reason to not take first steps towards a change of mindset.

In the end, of course, this has led to nothing at all, and a hopeful look forward might be as I understood Meno as saying, “that the freedoms that have been fought for in western society are likely to be so ingrained as to prevent a further “revolution” of thought, especially if it is a paradigm change for those in the west. This seems to me to be the problem of the strategies for world crises, which tend to be a bit “heave ho!” and not differentiated to achieve the best result. It may indeed be a case of naïve optimism that I am expressing but considering the fact that people have died to propel humanity forwards, I think that the risk today is relatively small. The larger probability is that it will just come to nothing.”

Perhaps, as I said to Meno, the people on the fringe that are making the discoveries that lead to a non-dualistic perspective are irrelevant to larger society and haven’t got the clout to enforce a change of this kind. You may well be right, although in the past, there have been paradigm changes that grew from modest beginnings. As I said, in my case it is a hope.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:04 am

"We are interdependent with the body of the Earth. The minerals of the soil make up our wheat and our bones, the storm clouds become our drinks and our blood, the oxygen from the trees and forests is the air we breathe. The more consciously we realize this shared destiny, the more compassion arises for the earth itself.
Your family is all of humanity, all the animals, all beings on earth. Include them all in your heart. Live with gratitude. What the times ask is a change of consciousness—a shift from the fearful, separate consciousness, the consciousness of us versus them, to the consciousness of connection and interdependence."
Jack Kornfield
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:50 am

Bob, you have hereby proved yourself Unworthy of Christ's Hope.

Enjoy the Lake of Fire, may you discover the error of your ways as your flame-licked skin writhes in Agony for Eternity.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:59 am

It's funny on this forum, after how many years now, that these same morons who expect Enlightenment from others, absolutely refuse to listen or to respect their Interlocuters, when they are explicitly educated on the errors of their own reasoning, along with paths to solutions to exactly what they prescribe.

Retardation is Ironic, especially when Retards pretend to be Rational.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:03 am

Victims don't actually want solutions to their problems or "hope", as Bob claims here in this thread and the OP.

Instead, they want their ego's stroked about how 'unattainable' their struggles are. They want Sympathy, from a Higher Power.

Gentle head pats, as you would a house pet, a cat or dog.


Here's the Reason, the Cause, the Why....

Because if there were a valid, obvious, reasoned Solution, then the Whiners & Victims would be forced to Act upon it.

Their Whining is not about Acting. Their victim-minds, Slave-minds, are not about Changing their situations.


It's all a big Gripe, or a big Grift, depending on the topic and individual.

Because Real Answers demand Real Change in your life.

This is why somebody like Bob, who demands 'Hope' from others, would never accept it if even offered to him.


Some are determined to wallow in Despair; misery enjoys company.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:07 am

Ichthus77 wrote:It ain’t about worth. Another thing Kant got wrong. So many urban myths to dispell… like God helps those who help themselves. NO—he helps those others deem a lost cause. In deeming it of others, they deem it of themselves. Gonna hurt when he helps those others. He has so many poor representatives because no representation could ever do him justice.

You need to stick to the point, sweetheart, FOCUS

Bob needs Hope, because he has none within himself. His life is hopeless. Do you honestly believe God can help him??

He seems like a lost cause to me.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:10 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:It ain’t about worth. Another thing Kant got wrong. So many urban myths to dispell… like God helps those who help themselves. NO—he helps those others deem a lost cause. In deeming it of others, they deem it of themselves. Gonna hurt when he helps those others. He has so many poor representatives because no representation could ever do him justice.

You need to stick to the point, sweetheart, FOCUS

Bob needs Hope, because he has none within himself. His life is hopeless. Do you honestly believe God can help him??

He seems like a lost cause to me.


That’s between him & God.

Stop speculating & let God do the sorting.

All the carrots of the entropic world will melt into the sea eventually.

Except the real one.

I’m not sure he’s cool with me calling him carrot top right now… but he gets that I’m a dork.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5995
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:23 pm

Bob wrote:But like I said, this thread is asking whether there is hope in finding a common denominator, like compassion, or like non-duality, or anything else that could overcome the divides we have that are so destructive. There were, for example, scenes one Christmas on the Somme, when German and British troops celebrated Christmas together, even playing football, revealing that there were common bonds that exist despite the political resolution to fight a war. Could a realisation that we are part of a cosmic unity, that self is just a mask we use to interact, but which will fall when the play is over, help to unify humanity at some stage? What could be the first steps towards that?


MMP wrote:My answer to that first question is a resounding no... and therefore I don't much care what the answer to the second question might be.
I have to assume, given your complaint about what I wish to discuss being off track, you're not interested in discussing the first question... You'd rather take the yes for granted and discuss the second question.


Bob wrote:you have disregarded my opening statement, and in reply to my search for hope, told me that my statement (that if we resisted unity, it only means further conflict and suffering) was a threat. You proposed that to achieve a semblance of hope in unity, we would have to “surrender our individuality, our loved ones, our hopes and dreams, we sacrifice them to a higher power for fear of conflict and war.” Your language suggested that hoping for unity could only mean that we lose, but also (at the same time) suggest that I was talking about “winning a war”. In fact, I was doing the opposite in an attempt to find hope that could overcome wars.


My objection was never about your nefarious motives... that is shockingly wrong!
My objection is about the means by which you think peace can be achieved, namely a "common denominator".
From a practical standpoint, I don't think that can work, shy of tyrannical fanaticism (not because I think you're a proponent of tyrannical fanaticism, or at least I hope not).
My bringing up the root of tribalism, which you call social bonding and say is a good thing, was precisely to illustrate why I don't believe it will work.

I even offered what I think might be a more promising alternative means by which to approach that same end.

MMP wrote:The ideal solution in my mind, is to generate a circumstance where our loyalties are very rarely tested... but it seem impossible to me to generate a circumstance where they are NEVER tested.
Though perhaps infinite resources might make that possible... we're not exactly entertaining fantasies here.


We don't need a common denominator, we just need to feel safe and secure... humans rarely, if ever, seek out an enemy just for the sake of having one.
In fact people believing we need a common denominator to have peace (to feel safe and secure) usually end up leading inquisitions and crusades, religious or otherwise... because they think it's necessary.

The lion eats the gazelle so it can live and probably enjoys it too, it feels no guilt or sympathy for it whatsoever... and yet we can stop that happening by changing the necessity, by changing the circumstance! Give the lion lab grown meat designed for the lions pallet, attached to a fun device for it to chase down, that is an even more satisfying hunt than the gazelle. The lion will never again choose to hunt the gazelle! We've brokered peace without asking the lion or gazelle to change what they are. You could of course train a lion not to hunt the gazelle... and you'd have some success, very likely... but I don't imagine that lion is happy in it's new life and would return to it's ways were you ever to put down the whip.

If we had similar insight into our own nature, instead of pretending we are blank slates to be programmed, we might design a circumstance for ourselves that would likewise remove most motives to fight each other without the tyranny of a whip. So while you're asking if there's some abstract romantic design like cosmic oneness we might ask all humans to fit themselves into, I'm suggesting perhaps the project ought to be designing a circumstance fit for humans.

That's where I'd find hope... economic models, governmental structures, trade agreements etc... the things that change our circumstance.
I'd be terrified if every voice on the planet sang the same songs and that gave us peace... as I'd expect the next thing to follow from that is to keep the peace at all costs... so now we HAVE to sing the same songs.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2818
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:57 am

Ichthus77 wrote:That’s between him & God.

Maybe, but Maybe Not.

Because Globalism is complete, everybody can no longer ignore or simply 'move away' from our Neighbors, everywhere on Earth. I am forced to share a planet with you (which I enjoy) and with Bob (which I do not enjoy). Thus politics is necessary, as is choosing the Lesser Evils in life. If slave-minds like Bob need Hope from master-minds, then so be it. This forum ought to look further into this, these Mechanics of Hope, because ignoring these festering corruptions do lead to disease and deaths of entire societies and civilizations.

Bob, like the typical Western self-proclaimed "Christian", seeks-out Hope that he cannot even understand nor comprehend.

Then he lashes-out at the Messenger, as this thread demonstrates.


If Bob can't understand Mad Man P, his arguments, then what Hope does Bob really have to "solve" his problems, as-if that were even his true motives, which it's obviously not...?
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:31 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:That’s between him & God.

Maybe, but Maybe Not.

Because Globalism is complete, everybody can no longer ignore or simply 'move away' from our Neighbors, everywhere on Earth. I am forced to share a planet with you (which I enjoy) and with Bob (which I do not enjoy). Thus politics is necessary, as is choosing the Lesser Evils in life. If slave-minds like Bob need Hope from master-minds, then so be it. This forum ought to look further into this, these Mechanics of Hope, because ignoring these festering corruptions do lead to disease and deaths of entire societies and civilizations.

Bob, like the typical Western self-proclaimed "Christian", seeks-out Hope that he cannot even understand nor comprehend.

Then he lashes-out at the Messenger, as this thread demonstrates.


If Bob can't understand Mad Man P, his arguments, then what Hope does Bob really have to "solve" his problems, as-if that were even his true motives, which it's obviously not...?


It seems like you look at everything through a derivative political lens. Unless you are observing local politics, your sources are all mediated. So youre subverted from immediate perception. It doesnt matter if the media is slanted Left or Right its all through someone elses lens. Get back to direct perception> it'll be like refreshing water to your soul.

My brother and I didn't talk for years because we were opposed politically. Then tragedy struck him. Now we can talk again about life as we experience it directly without politics. It's like a blessing from God to be able to do that. I hope you come to a place like that. It would be a relief and a release to you.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10953
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:39 am

My grievance with Bob is not Political it's Religious.

I don't like Hypocrites who pretend to be "Christian".

My opinion of Christianity, is that if you claim to "Love Christ", then you are Obligated/Responsibility to change your life to align with His.


Your Lord, Christ,

So, yes, I see Bob as one of the biggest hypocrites, especially when he balks and cowers when it comes to a simple disagreement or debate about "Hope".

I believe that Good Philosophy is never Easy, so it's on Bob to be serious about the "solutions" he implies, yet recoils from not more than 3 responses later.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:41 am

Felix, don't be coy....

In this thread, Bob claimed that 'tribalism' is the problem, meanwhile you have just admitted and demonstrated that even Brothers can be at odds with one-another.

So Tribalism be damned.


If Kin can fight among each-other, for scraps, then what makes Bob think he has a 'solution' to anything???
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:20 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Felix, don't be coy....

In this thread, Bob claimed that 'tribalism' is the problem, meanwhile you have just admitted and demonstrated that even Brothers can be at odds with one-another.

So Tribalism be damned.


If Kin can fight among each-other, for scraps, then what makes Bob think he has a 'solution' to anything???


I think Bob's intention on this thread was to be a peacemaker. That flies in the face of much of what passes for dialogue here. Maybe he set his hopes too high. Or maybe he must just persevere.

In my experience a person with a literal tribal background was offended when another cited tribalism as a problem. The offender hadn't thought of that angle, and was humbled and learned from it.

The fact that my brother and I have reconciled showed me that peace is possible even when I can't see how. There was a kind of grace at work. But it came at a very high price.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10953
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:29 am

Mad Man P wrote:My objection was never about your nefarious motives... that is shockingly wrong!
My objection is about the means by which you think peace can be achieved, namely a "common denominator".
From a practical standpoint, I don't think that can work, shy of tyrannical fanaticism (not because I think you're a proponent of tyrannical fanaticism, or at least I hope not).
My bringing up the root of tribalism, which you call social bonding and say is a good thing, was precisely to illustrate why I don't believe it will work.

So, to the “good Samaritan” you would say, “Leave me here in my wounds, go back to where you came from, people from my tribe will soon be here, I don’t trust your nefarious motives!”? You wouldn’t accept the water, food, clothing, or a visit from a compassionate person when in need? You would think them to be flagrantly wicked, impious or evil? You would reward a friendly smile with a suspecting grimace? Is that the way you live?

What do you imagine a common denominator to be? I imagine it to be an outstretched hand of friendship, a common ground, mutual problems to be solved, a similar idea of a flourishing future for our children.

Mad Man P wrote:I even offered what I think might be a more promising alternative means by which to approach that same end …

The ideal solution in my mind, is to generate a circumstance where our loyalties are very rarely tested... but it seem impossible to me to generate a circumstance where they are NEVER tested.
Though perhaps infinite resources might make that possible... we're not exactly entertaining fantasies here.

We don't need a common denominator, we just need to feel safe and secure... humans rarely, if ever, seek out an enemy just for the sake of having one.
In fact people believing we need a common denominator to have peace (to feel safe and secure) usually end up leading inquisitions and crusades, religious or otherwise... because they think it's necessary.

So, you would generate a circumstance where our loyalties are rarely tested. What is that exactly, if it isn’t finding common ground?

You want to feel safe and secure, but not find anything we could have in common with others? Not make a mutual agreement towards that aim?

Mad Man P wrote:The lion eats the gazelle so it can live and probably enjoys it too, it feels no guilt or sympathy for it whatsoever... and yet we can stop that happening by changing the necessity, by changing the circumstance! Give the lion lab grown meat designed for the lions pallet, attached to a fun device for it to chase down, that is an even more satisfying hunt than the gazelle. The lion will never again choose to hunt the gazelle! We've brokered peace without asking the lion or gazelle to change what they are. You could of course train a lion not to hunt the gazelle... and you'd have some success, very likely... but I don't imagine that lion is happy in it's new life and would return to it's ways were you ever to put down the whip.

So, are you saying that human beings are not happy without the hunt? That he is actually like a lion? That is why you oppose a cosmic unity? You are afraid that if people realise that we are actually one, that we would be forced (by who?) to give up our individuality, that you define as being predatory?

What do think economic models, governmental structures, trade agreements etc. are? They are mutual agreements, made on the basis that we have common interests, and trade is a common denominator. They are self-imposed rules, guidelines, and laws.

The only thing I am suggesting is that we find a way in which we can reach out a hand of friendship to those who despite the commercial exchange that goes on, still have an idea that their race is superior, or who have suffered grievances in the past, and think that armed conflict is a solution.

I’m afraid that your imagination flared up and took you away to places I hadn’t even imagined. Despite the examples I gave you, which you perhaps overflew, you were not dissuaded that your fantasy had the better of you. Perhaps a less reactionary stance would help in a civil discussion.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:39 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:My opinion of Christianity, is that if you claim to "Love Christ", then you are Obligated/Responsibility to change your life to align with His.

Wow, this is really a revelation, especially considering the vitriol you have been spouting.

It seems that the way people you oppose people is to accuse them of what you are yourself doing.

You are on ignore because I have seldom read such hateful and bigoted opinions as yours. Then to attack me (although I am far from perfect) in a thread that is looking for hope to overcome hatred - that is the peak of hypocrisy.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Mad Man P » Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:22 pm

Bob wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:The lion eats the gazelle so it can live and probably enjoys it too, it feels no guilt or sympathy for it whatsoever... and yet we can stop that happening by changing the necessity, by changing the circumstance! Give the lion lab grown meat designed for the lions pallet, attached to a fun device for it to chase down, that is an even more satisfying hunt than the gazelle. The lion will never again choose to hunt the gazelle! We've brokered peace without asking the lion or gazelle to change what they are. You could of course train a lion not to hunt the gazelle... and you'd have some success, very likely... but I don't imagine that lion is happy in it's new life and would return to it's ways were you ever to put down the whip.

So, are you saying that human beings are not happy without the hunt? That he is actually like a lion? That is why you oppose a cosmic unity? You are afraid that if people realise that we are actually one, that we would be forced (by who?) to give up our individuality, that you define as being predatory?


Wow... just wow... this is actually quite helpful in discovering just how wrong your reading of me is.

No, I'm saying we're tribal by nature and that we'd be miserable without a tribe where our name is known, for which and from which we feel love and loyalty. I'm saying we could steer into our tribalism and make it work for us instead of against us, rather than try to overcome it with your "unity" idea, which I suspect would require a rather large whip or a sword.

I agree with your end goal of peace... Tough perhaps the best thing we can manage is a circumstance in which tribes still exist, with very different ideas, very different projects and values, and very different ways to live and raise kids... but also have very few reasons to hate or hurt each other. We don't need everyone to be friends or join together in some global project and become ONE. If we can just get them to leave each other alone, that'd be mission accomplished and a huge improvement. Tolerance would be good enough, meaning inclusion and unity are unnecessary. I'd be delighted if a sense of friendship and unity emerged naturally between tribes due to common interests and joint projects or simple sympathy and compassion... but I'd be suspicious of anyone who would not settle for tolerance, as they would seem set on conquest to me.

However, limited resources requires we reach across to each other for trade and there will be conflicts of interest that emerge as a consequence... Not born out of malice or hate or feelings of superiority... but born out of need and privation. That's a problem I don't know how to solve... I'm fairly certain neither compassion nor friendship can produce more oil, where a lack of oil can very easily errode both friendship and compassion. Neither you nor I seem to have a good solution to that problem... and until we do, I suspect war and conflict will continue to plague humanity.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2818
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: A look forward in hope

Postby Bob » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:01 am

Mad Man P wrote:Wow... just wow... this is actually quite helpful in discovering just how wrong your reading of me is.

Glad to oblige. If you noticed the question marks, I was trying to understand why you would suddenly bring the example of the unhappy lion, fed on lab-grown meat.

Mad Man P wrote:No, I'm saying we're tribal by nature and that we'd be miserable without a tribe where our name is known, for which and from which we feel love and loyalty. I'm saying we could steer into our tribalism and make it work for us instead of against us, rather than try to overcome it with your "unity" idea, which I suspect would require a rather large whip or a sword.

This is also curious and perhaps a sign of “just how wrong your reading of me is.” Your obsession with whips and swords, whereas I have been speaking about finding ways towards an open hand of friendship, of compassion and seeing our neighbour as fundamentally the same as ourselves, is very suggestive. I’m not sure of how you mean to “steer into our tribalism”, what exactly? And what is “it” that should “work for us instead of against us”?

Mad Man P wrote:I agree with your end goal of peace... Tough perhaps the best thing we can manage is a circumstance in which tribes still exist, with very different ideas, very different projects and values, and very different ways to live and raise kids... but also have very few reasons to hate or hurt each other. We don't need everyone to be friends or join together in some global project and become ONE. If we can just get them to leave each other alone, that'd be mission accomplished and a huge improvement. Tolerance would be good enough, meaning inclusion and unity are unnecessary. I'd be delighted if a sense of friendship and unity emerged naturally between tribes due to common interests and joint projects or simple sympathy and compassion... but I'd be suspicious of anyone who would not settle for tolerance, as they would seem set on conquest to me.

Aha, a breakthrough! You agree with my end goal of peace. But then you pretend that there are not already different ideas integrated in our societies, enabling people to live as they want to. If you could extend that ability to encompass diversity, whilst all the time steering towards the common goal of overcoming conflicts, you already have a humanity approaching an understanding of unity. It isn’t just about tolerance, but accepting the diversity, promoting it even, like we already do in our constitutions, guaranteeing the freedom to worship as you want to. In such agreements, it is the common good, the unity of a society that mustn’t be infringed upon.

But clearly, there is racism, misogyny, xenophobia, poverty, and many other problems to overcome, even within our rich societies, which cause extreme suffering and death, and we already know that the mindset of our society is making people ill. In some western countries, the wealth divide is so wide, that the countries are slumping, and people are becoming increasingly unhappy. There is widespread corruption, and this is mainly because of individualism, and a lack of solidarity with other people in society who, through no fault of their own, are on destitute street. The lack of compassion and lack of motivation to work for the whole of society makes it violent, with frustration and mental illness on the rise.

Mad Man P wrote:However, limited resources requires we reach across to each other for trade and there will be conflicts of interest that emerge as a consequence... Not born out of malice or hate or feelings of superiority... but born out of need and privation. That's a problem I don't know how to solve... I'm fairly certain neither compassion nor friendship can produce more oil, where a lack of oil can very easily errode both friendship and compassion. Neither you nor I seem to have a good solution to that problem... and until we do, I suspect war and conflict will continue to plague humanity.

Unfortunately, the resources have always been manipulated for the markets. The markets also rush in to exploit weaknesses, trends, and insecurity. You only have to watch the news for that. Sadly, those who make policies reckon with greed as a motivator for commerce, rather than the further development of society and overcoming of problems. This is all within the individualist mentality, rather than seeing our world population, or even our nations for that matter, as collectives. It is also spreading, which was the intention of globalism. A huge majority of the world still thought collectively a little while ago, even if it sometimes was reduced to tribal wars, which were steps towards individualism in the group.

Greed isn’t satisfying needs, but when wealth becomes a status symbol of superiority that you have to show everybody, when you have to blend out the needy or any thought of generosity, when your surplus doesn’t encourage you to help someone you could. You see the people in their expensive cars, draped in expensive clothes, flashing expensive jewellery and watches, but avoiding any mention of current affairs and people in need. Unfortunately, there is an audience that laps this up and tries to pretend that it can be like their role models, at least to some extent. This way individualism spreads mental poverty, and contributes to escapism, rather than attending to what needs attending to.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

PreviousNext

Return to Religion and Spirituality



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users