A New Type of Theology in a New World

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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Sun May 08, 2022 8:25 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:Yes they are! The word evolve literally means to change. Evolution as a "theory" is that things CHANGED into what they are today, as opposed to God saying "let there be light" and suddenly there was light.

To evolve is to change and to change is to evolve. Evolution is simply change. Creatures evolve by adapting to their environment. They change because their environment changes and they evolve by "equalizing" with that environment.

Evolution is no different than putting an ice cube into a glass of water, the ice cube is cold and the water is warm. Eventually the ice cube evolves by warming up and melting, and the water gets colder. They are coming to an equilibrium with each other. When the ice cube is gone the water comes to an equilibrium with the room temperature.

Ever wonder why chameleons change colors, or creatures blend in with their environment? You think that's an accident? They EVOLVED, they changed to adapt to their surroundings. The changed. They evolved.


I disagree and I have already expressed why. You can take it or leave it. The fact that you didn't even quote my entire argument is evidence of self-denial.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Sun May 08, 2022 8:30 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Motor Daddy wrote:
I disagree and I have already expressed why. You can take it or leave it. The fact that you didn't even quote my entire argument is evidence of self-denial.


You can disagree all you want to, but the fact remains that to evolve means to change. For you to define God as change is...laughable!
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Sun May 08, 2022 8:45 pm

Mackerni wrote:
felix dakat wrote:How could it possibly more abstract than your idea that God is a mere concept? Being is not abstract. Without it you would be nothing. If it’s like something to be you than you are. If not you’re a bot or a zombie, that is, you are not.


I was going to argue on the basis of the amounts of definitions of what being and change has.

Being has nine. Change has thirty-four.

You have a good point sir. I will consider it.

Edit: But wouldn't you say that all beings change? I consume food and beverages that I gain nutrition and recycle the waste. A being that doesn't change typically isn't alive. Even in one day I could get a hair cut and look like a completely different person. Life exists because of the duplication of DNA; change.


Change is a product of time, space and causality all of which are a priori superimpositions of the mind on perceptions to produce the phenomena we experience. That’s all a representation of the Matrix that is your mind.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Sun May 08, 2022 9:05 pm

felix dakat wrote:Change is a product of time, space and causality all of which are a priori superimpositions of the mind on perceptions to produce the phenomena we experience. That’s all a representation of the Matrix that is your mind.


Yet change exists without the mind as well. In fact, most of the change that happened after the Universe was created happened before any life even existed. Your idealism is commendable but reality, and change, still exists without it.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby MagsJ » Sun May 08, 2022 9:32 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:
MagsJ wrote:That’s called ‘intention', everything else after that is mechanical.

We are intentional / mechanical Beings..

Call it what you want to. So you're saying my "intention" (which is a thought) caused the chair to move?

So you’re saying I believe in telekinesis, is what you’re inferring here?

Intention leads to action, through 'will' caused by 'need' probably.. simply thinking about moving the chair, doesn’t move the chair, as in the case of the paralysed.. well, without the help of technology, that is.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Sun May 08, 2022 10:01 pm

Mackerni wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Change is a product of time, space and causality all of which are a priori superimpositions of the mind on perceptions to produce the phenomena we experience. That’s all a representation of the Matrix that is your mind.


Yet change exists without the mind as well. In fact, most of the change that happened after the Universe was created happened before any life even existed. Your idealism is commendable but reality, and change, still exists without it.



The mind is the only way we have of knowing anything. So to say what exists or existed without the mind is impossible. All we know as objects are phenomena. Without a mind there are no phenomena.Phenomena are the way things appear to a mind not the way things are in themselves? Without a point of view we can’t say anything about anything. With a point of view we can say what it looks like not how it is. There is no view from nowhere. And “where” is a product of mind which represents things in space.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Sun May 08, 2022 10:13 pm

felix dakat wrote:The mind is the only way we have of knowing anything. So to say what exists or existed without the mind is impossible. All we know as objects are phenomena. Without a mind there are no phenomena.Phenomena are the way things appear to a mind not the way things are in themselves? Without a point of view we can’t say anything about anything. With a point of view we can say what it looks like not how it is. There is no view from nowhere. And “where” is a product of mind which represents things in space.


Ah, the classic "if a tree fell in a forest and nobody was around would it make a sound?" I would contend that it did make the sound, because I believe the nearby plants, and the tree, can hear itself. This has already been demonstrated in shows like Myth Busters. Does the plant have a mind? Does the plant have a spirit? On the argument between human idealism and panpsychism I side closer, if not entirely, on the panpsychism part of this debate. Without change there is no cause and effect. Without cause or effect there can be no causer. Without a causer the being cannot exist. Therefore change is God; not the being.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun May 08, 2022 10:31 pm

-
Change is not a cause.
Change is an effect.

An imbalanced situation causes change in the situation - that is the effect - the potential that causes the action - that is creation.

Without an imbalanced situation - there can be no change - there can be no creator - there would be no God.

The universe is an infinite imbalanced situation altering itself endlessly - always renewing - always being changed - evolving up and down - round and round - because the cause of change - the imbalanced situation - is ever present - and never escaped.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Sun May 08, 2022 10:52 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:-
Change is not a cause.
Change is an effect.

An imbalanced situation causes change in the situation - that is the effect - the potential that causes the action - that is creation.

Without an imbalanced situation - there can be no change - there can be no creator - there would be no God.

The universe is an infinite imbalanced situation altering itself endlessly - always renewing - always being changed - evolving up and down - round and round - because the cause of change - the imbalanced situation - is ever present - and never escaped.


Wow. This is really good. I however would argue that something has to change in order to cause the cause it is doing.

For example. The chicken and the egg situation. The imbalanced situation is: the chicken existed but the evolution of the chicken means it didn't always exist. So what existed first, the chicken that created the egg or the egg that became the chicken?

Evolution does happen due to an imbalanced situation. But what caused that imbalanced situation? Nature did. Something fundamentally changed on Earth to change whatever chickens were before to what they became. So therefore, there is always a causer. Some people call that God. We keep going down this hole, this God of the gaps scenario. The only thing we do know is there is some imbalance of some kind for the cause to create this effect.

What I do believe however is that on some fundamental level, whether it is the neurons in your brain firing at different signals or a star being born, there is always a reason behind this change. The reason, or imbalance, is change itself. I simply call this causal set of connections behind this God. And I no longer live as if it's one central super intelligent being doing this.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ecmandu » Sun May 08, 2022 11:48 pm

Existence is not symmetrical.

If it were, every positive would have an equal negative cancelling it out. Which would be nothing at all.

Existence is asymmetrical. It exists.

It always will be.

There is no being who can make or change that.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Sun May 08, 2022 11:53 pm

What is boils down to, really, is that change is a factor for change itself. This is why Republicans and Democrats exist. This is why Barack Obama became the President and then Donald Trump. It's better however than a dictator who needs to stay in the middle to please everybody but then becomes an autocrat. Or rebels for anarchy. Some progress does get made however. Look at what we are doing in Ukraine to try to stop this war, from both the left and the right. But see, that's the problem, if we only did what 99% of people agreed with not much would be done. We mix the poison and the cure together to bring our society together to find the common ground between people. And that's why democracy ultimately exists.

Sorry, this isn't politics, it's religion and spirituality. But this applies to everything if you really think about it.

Edit: This is why I agree with asymmetrical take. Believe it or not I wrote this before I saw your post.

Double edit: Believe it or not I've been calling myself a radical centrist for awhile. I guess if I have to choose one boat I fall somewhere between the transhumanists and libertarians.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Mon May 09, 2022 12:17 am

obsrvr524 wrote:-
Change is not a cause.
Change is an effect.


Change is the difference between cause and effect.

Cause can be considered the start line. Effect can be considered the finish line. Change is what happens between the start and finish line. Change is the car in motion, changing a distance over a changing time.

Change is what happens between the time you are born and the time you die. Life is about change (evolution).

Change is the motion of the ocean, constantly evolving, constantly changing.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Mon May 09, 2022 12:55 am

Motor Daddy wrote:Change is the difference between cause and effect.

Cause can be considered the start line. Effect can be considered the finish line. Change is what happens between the start and finish line. Change is the car in motion, changing a distance over a changing time.

Change is what happens between the time you are born and the time you die. Life is about change (evolution).

Change is the motion of the ocean, constantly evolving, constantly changing.


I guess that's the debate. If change (God) is absolute then it does not change. If change (God) changes then it is not absolute. I think we can all agree that somethings should remain the same for awhile at least.

I think I understand it now. Somethings should stay the same while other things should change. What that change is up to us. And no, I'm not saying we are God. We just have a slight way of affecting it. We are the characters of our lives. So instead of just philosophizing about it you should live it!

**Total breakthrough Shinji Ikari moment**
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Mon May 09, 2022 1:25 am

Consciousness is the way we perceive God through the ever-growing, entropy-ridden Universe. The more entropy exists the less changes happen. Extropy isn't the opposite of entropy, it seeks to expand the positive and downplay the negative. And that's it.

I feel pretty good now. I couldn't have done this without everybody's help. Thanks!
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Mon May 09, 2022 1:32 am

Mackerni wrote: So instead of just philosophizing about it you should live it!

**Total breakthrough Shinji Ikari moment**


Nothing wrong with giving a little thought to life, but don't "waste" your life thinking about it.


The Interview With God



I dreamed I had an interview with God.


"Come in," God said. "So, you would like to interview Me?"

"If you have the time," I said.

God smiled and said:
"My time is eternity and is enough to do everything; What questions do you have in mind to ask me?"

"What surprises you most about mankind?"

God answered:

"That they get bored of being children, are in a rush to grow up, and then long to be children again...

That they lose their health to make money and then lose their money to restore their health...

That by thinking anxiously about the future, they forget the present, such that they live neither for the present nor the future...

That they live as if they will never die, and they die as if they had never lived."



God's hands took mine and we were silent for awhile and then I asked... "As a parent, what are some of life's lessons you want your children to learn?"

God replied with a smile:

"To learn that they cannot make anyone love them. What they can do is to let themselves be loved...

To learn that what is most valuable is not what they have in their lives, but who they have in their lives...

To learn that it is not good to compare themselves to others. All will be judged individually on their own merits, not as a group on a comparison basis...

To learn that a rich person is not the one who has the most, but is one who needs the least...

To learn that it only takes a few seconds to open profound wounds in persons we love, and that it takes many years to heal them...

To learn to forgive by practicing forgiveness...

To learn that there are persons that love them dearly, but simply do not know how to express or show their feelings...

To learn that money can buy everything but happiness...

To learn that two people can look at the same thing and see it totally different...

To learn that a true friend is someone who knows everything about them, and likes them anyway...

To learn that it is not always enough that they be forgiven by others, but that they have to forgive themselves."


I sat there for awhile enjoying the moment. I thanked Him for his time and for all that He has done for me and my family, and He replied, "Anytime. I'm here 24 hours a day. All you have to do is ask for me, and I'll answer."



Author Unknown


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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 2:13 am

Mackerni wrote:I however would argue that something has to change in order to cause the cause it is doing.

If it is impossible for any situation to not be imbalanced - an imbalanced situation is eternal - never began - can never end - the universe itself is such a situation in action (else you couldn't be part of it to talk about it).
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 09, 2022 2:43 am

Mackerni wrote:
felix dakat wrote:The mind is the only way we have of knowing anything. So to say what exists or existed without the mind is impossible. All we know as objects are phenomena. Without a mind there are no phenomena.Phenomena are the way things appear to a mind not the way things are in themselves? Without a point of view we can’t say anything about anything. With a point of view we can say what it looks like not how it is. There is no view from nowhere. And “where” is a product of mind which represents things in space.


Ah, the classic "if a tree fell in a forest and nobody was around would it make a sound?" I would contend that it did make the sound, because I believe the nearby plants, and the tree, can hear itself. This has already been demonstrated in shows like Myth Busters. Does the plant have a mind? Does the plant have a spirit? On the argument between human idealism and panpsychism I side closer, if not entirely, on the panpsychism part of this debate. Without change there is no cause and effect. Without cause or effect there can be no causer. Without a causer the being cannot exist. Therefore change is God; not the being.


How did the myth busters or you perceive the sound outside of your minds? To hear a sound is an experience. Without the mind there is no experience of sound.

Without time there is no change and time is a product of the mind. Time makes change possible.

So if you want to introduce God talk, time is the God of change. But, is , that is being, is the God of time as well as everything else as even your conclusion shows.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 2:49 am

felix dakat wrote:Without time there is no change and time is a product of the mind. Time makes change possible.

I think you have that one backwards.

Time is our measure of change rate. Time is a measurement - existing only in the mind - as the mind experiences change. Without change - time cannot exist - but change can easily exist without our measure of its experience called "time".
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Mon May 09, 2022 3:00 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Without time there is no change and time is a product of the mind. Time makes change possible.

I think you have that one backwards.

Time is our measure of change rate. Time is a measurement - existing only in the mind - as the mind experiences change. Without change - time cannot exist - but change can easily exist without our measure of its experience called "time".


We measure time with a clock. Time exists, and we measure it, like you exist and we measure your height.

There is the thing being measured and the thing doing the measuring. Time is the thing being measured and the clock is doing the measuring.

Time does not need a physical object to exist or be in motion, time is simply duration.

Distance and time are inevitable, they never start and they never end.

Distance in every direction is this: <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Time is like this: <--------------------------------------now----------------------------------------------->

If the universe started 13.7 billion years ago that does not mean that time started at that point in time. There was a 15 billion years ago. There was a 100 billion years ago. There was a million billion years ago. There was a trillion trillion years ago...and on and on.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 09, 2022 3:07 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Without time there is no change and time is a product of the mind. Time makes change possible.

I think you have that one backwards.

Time is our measure of change rate. Time is a measurement - existing only in the mind - as the mind experiences change. Without change - time cannot exist - but change can easily exist without our measure of its experience called "time".


The a priori intuition of time in which all experience occurs is more basic than the measurement of time.

"...the conception of change, and with it the conception of motion, as change of place, is possible only through and in the representation of time; that if this representation were not an intuition (internal) a priori, no conception, of whatever kind, could render comprehensible the possibility of change, in other words, of a conjunction of contradictorily opposed predicates in one and the same object, for example, the presence of a thing in a place and the non-presence of the same thing in the same place. It is only in time that it is possible to meet with two contradictorily opposed determinations in one thing, that is, after each other. Thus our conception of time explains the possibility of so much synthetical knowledge a priori, as is exhibited in the general doctrine of motion, which is not a little fruitful.

Kant, Immanuel. The Immanuel Kant Collection: 8 Classic Works . Waxkeep Publishing. Kindle Edition.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 3:17 am

-
The thing being measured is relative change (how much one situation changed relative to another).

If you want to say that the relation between the two changes "exists" - then okay - you can say that time exists. I think many could argue that relationships are mental constructs more so than physical - but have it your way mate.

The fact remains that change must occur before there can be time - even if time is the existence of relative changing (the changing must be there before a relative change can be there - if only one change is occurring - there is still no time).

So either way - change must exist (multiple changes) before time can be claimed to exist - and a situation causing that change must occur before any change can take place. The situation starts it all because the situation is that every situation must be imbalanced leading to a change of that situation.

I think the concept-God (rather than the physical-God) has to be the overall Situation ("The Holy Spirit") and the resultant changing is the physical creation - the universe of energy.

felix dakat wrote:The a priori intuition of time in which all experience occurs is more basic than the measurement of time.

I don't believe that. The "experience" IS a subconscious measure. They are the same thing. My point was that the change must occur before it can be experienced (intuitively or not).
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Mon May 09, 2022 3:24 am

obsrvr524 wrote:-
The thing being measured is relative change (how much one situation changed relative to another).

If you want to say that the relation between the two changes "exists" - then okay - you can say that time exists. I think many could argue that relationships are mental constructs more so than physical - but have it your way mate.

The fact remains that change must occur before there can be time - even if time is the existence of relative changing (the changing must be there before a relative change can be there - if only one change is occurring - there is still no time).

So either way - change must exist (multiple changes) before time can be claimed to exist - and a situation causing that change must occur before any change can take place. The situation starts it all because the situation is that every situation must be imbalanced leading to a change of that situation.


No. What you are describing is the measure of motion. Motion is measured by change of an object's distance over time. You measure the change in distance, and you measure the change in time.

If I change position 10 feet, and it takes 1 second for the change to occur, then the motion was measured to be 10 feet per second. 10 ft/sec

Sure, a measure of an object's motion requires an object, but time has no such requirement, and neither does distance.

Distance and time do not require matter to exist, they are simply inevitable, they can not be created and they can not be destroyed.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 3:35 am

Motor Daddy wrote:What you are describing is the measure of motion. Motion is measured by change of an object's distance over time. You measure the change in distance, and you measure the change in time.

Change and motion are the same thing. We usually use the word "motion" when discussing merely a change in position rather than say - change in color - but any change is still a change.

How fast the clock hands are moving relative to whatever other change is what yields your measure of time - of relative change. Slow down all measuring devices and our measure of time will change - even if no other motion was altered. We would declare the universe became slower or faster. In reality our measure devices can only measure relative change to themselves (the cause of Relativity).

Motor Daddy wrote:Distance and time do not require matter to exist, they are simply inevitable, they can not be created and they can not be destroyed.

I don't think that is true but - different subject.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 09, 2022 3:42 am

obsrvr524 wrote:-
The thing being measured is relative change (how much one situation changed relative to another).

If you want to say that the relation between the two changes "exists" - then okay - you can say that time exists. I think many could argue that relationships are mental constructs more so than physical - but have it your way mate.

The fact remains that change must occur before there can be time - even if time is the existence of relative changing (the changing must be there before a relative change can be there - if only one change is occurring - there is still no time).

So either way - change must exist (multiple changes) before time can be claimed to exist - and a situation causing that change must occur before any change can take place. The situation starts it all because the situation is that every situation must be imbalanced leading to a change of that situation.

I think the concept-God (rather than the physical-God) has to be the overall Situation ("The Holy Spirit") and the resultant changing is the physical creation - the universe of energy.

felix dakat wrote:The a priori intuition of time in which all experience occurs is more basic than the measurement of time.

I don't believe that. The "experience" IS a subconscious measure. They are the same thing. My point was that the change must occur before it can be experienced (intuitively or not).


Change only occurs in experience. All experience is in time and space. Experience is never subconscious. It is conscious insofar as it is experienced. Experience and consciousness are synonyms. Outside of experience there is nothing, that is, no thing.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Mon May 09, 2022 3:43 am

obsrvr524 wrote:How fast the clock hands are moving relative to whatever other change is what yields your measure of time - of relative change.


Again, you are describing the measuring device, not what is being measured. Time is the thing being measured by a clock. If the clock speeds up or slows down (changes rate) then the clock did not keep accurate time.
Ever heard of a watch running slow or fast? It does not keep accurate time, it changed its rate so it does not measure time accurately.

Time itself has no units it is simply duration. A clock measures time by elapsing units consistently. If it is not consistent then it is inaccurate. It does not measure duration accurately according to the STANDARD unit the second.

Time does not need a clock in order for duration to occur.
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