A New Type of Theology in a New World

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 3:51 am

felix dakat wrote:Change only occurs in experience.

I don't know what that means but it seems to contradict -
felix dakat wrote:All experience is in time and space.

felix dakat wrote:Experience is never subconscious.

That seems notably false.
felix dakat wrote: It is conscious insofar as it is experienced. Experience and consciousness are synonyms.

Oh I get it - you have a different language. The Earth doesn't experience Sun flares or weather changes unless the Earth is conscious.

felix dakat wrote:Outside of experience there is nothing, that is, no thing.

Isn't there a name for that? - those who think the entire universe exists only in their minds? - and then invent their own language to make it seem to work?
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 09, 2022 4:06 am

Aristotle defined time like this:

τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν ὁ χρόνος, ἀριθμὸς κινήσεως κατὰ τὸ πρότερον καὶ ὕστερον. “For this is time: that which is counted in the movement which we encounter within the horizon of the earlier and later.”


That's a more basic experience than clock time.

And "earlier" and "later" or past and future are myths: stories in the mind.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10953
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 4:09 am

Motor Daddy wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:How fast the clock hands are moving relative to whatever other change is what yields your measure of time - of relative change.


Again, you are describing the measuring device, not what is being measured. Time is the thing being measured by a clock.

I granted you the shift in language so as to say that "time" refers to the thing - not the measurement (it didn't change the concern at hand).
Motor Daddy wrote:If the clock speeds up or slows down (changes rate) then the clock did not keep accurate time.

Now you are being primitive. I said ALL time measuring devices - there is no means AT ALL for you to know that your clocks are inaccurate (this is basic Einstein Relativity stuff).


Motor Daddy wrote:Ever heard of a watch running slow or fast? It does not keep accurate time, it changed its rate so it does not measure time accurately.

You can only know that by comparing it to something else that you don't think changed - but what if those other things changed instead? You could never know which was accurate.

More importantly than merely what you can know is the concern that how fast things change relative to other things is the actual cause of aging and all of the effects of time. So regardless of whether you could know anything about time - how fast things change relative to each other is what time is.

Motor Daddy wrote:Time itself has no units it is simply duration.

Changing words doesn't define anything.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Mon May 09, 2022 4:30 am

obsrvr524 wrote:So regardless of whether you could know anything about time - how fast things change relative to each other is what time is.


No it is not. You are describing relative motion. Relative motion is not time. Relative motion is measured in ft/sec. Time is measured in seconds. Two entirely different things. One is motion and the other is duration.

Time is not motion, time is duration.

One more time so you don't confuse the two things again:

Motion is objects traveling in space over a duration of time.
Time is duration.

Motion has units of Feet and Seconds.
Time has units of Seconds.

A motion is 10 feet per second.
A time is 1 second.

Two entirely different concepts.
Last edited by Motor Daddy on Mon May 09, 2022 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Motor Daddy
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1693
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:32 pm

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 09, 2022 4:39 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Change only occurs in experience.

I don't know what that means but it seems to contradict -
felix dakat wrote:All experience is in time and space.

felix dakat wrote:Experience is never subconscious.

That seems notably false.
felix dakat wrote: It is conscious insofar as it is experienced. Experience and consciousness are synonyms.

Oh I get it - you have a different language. The Earth doesn't experience Sun flares or weather changes unless the Earth is conscious.

felix dakat wrote:Outside of experience there is nothing, that is, no thing.

Isn't there a name for that? - those who think the entire universe exists only in their minds? - and then invent their own language to make it seem to work?


My point is that time, space and causality are subjective "givens" of all experience. That was Kant's point too. Everything we think we know about the universe occurs within the given parameters of the mind. Hume proved that causality is never observed empirically. Like time and space, causality is a subjective "container" in which the objects are perceived. According to science, whatever the earth, the sun and the weather are doing or not in reality, your perception of such phenomena is occuring in the gray matter under your skull.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10953
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 7:54 am

Motor Daddy wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:
Motor Daddy wrote:So regardless of whether you could know anything about time - how fast things change relative to each other is what time is.


No it is not. You are describing relative motion. Relative motion is not time. Relative motion is measured in ft/sec. Time is measured in seconds. Two entirely different things. One is motion and the other is duration.

Time is not motion, time is duration.

One more time so you don't confuse the two things again:

Motion is objects traveling in space over a duration of time.
Time is duration.

Motion has units of Feet and Seconds.
Time has units of Seconds.

A motion is 10 feet per second.
A time is 1 second.

Two entirely different concepts.

I don't think this is the thread to be debating relativity and science word usages. You can read through James' work on this board in Science or get the book Affectance Ontology(German or English). He goes through all of that stuff with greater detail and reason (graphs, videos, and such).

felix dakat wrote:Everything we think we know about the universe occurs within the given parameters of the mind. Hume proved that causality is never observed empirically.

I strongly doubt that - not because I know anything about Kant - but because I think such a proof would be impossible - even if the hypothesis was true - and I am relatively certain it is not.
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 09, 2022 2:21 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Everything we think we know about the universe occurs within the given parameters of the mind. Hume proved that causality is never observed empirically.

I strongly doubt that - not because I know anything about Kant - but because I think such a proof would be impossible - even if the hypothesis was true - and I am relatively certain it is not.


Kant's basis for the conclusion that the intuition of cause is subjective, as I said above, started with Hume. As Kant says;

Hume started from a single but important concept in Metaphysics, viz., that of Cause and Effect (including its derivatives force and action, etc.). He challenges reason, which pretends to have given birth to this idea from herself, to answer him by what right she thinks anything to be so constituted, that if that thing be posited, something else also must necessarily be posited; for this is the meaning of the concept of cause. He demonstrated irrefutably that it was perfectly impossible for reason to think a priori and by means of concepts a combination involving necessity. We cannot at all see why, in consequence of the existence of one thing, another must necessarily exist, or how the concept of such a combination can arise a priori. Hence he inferred, that reason was altogether deluded with reference to this concept, which she erroneously considered as one of her children, whereas in reality it was nothing but a bastard of imagination, impregnated by experience, which subsumed certain representations under the Law of Association, and mistook the subjective necessity of habit for an objective necessity arising from insight. Hence he inferred that reason had no power to think such combinations, even generally, because her concepts would then be purely fictitious, and all her pretended a priori cognitions nothing but common experiences marked with a false stamp. In plain language there is not, and cannot be, any such thing as metaphysics at all.

Kant, Immanuel. Kant's Prolegomena: To Any Future Metaphysics (pp. 7-8). anboco. Kindle Edition.


Mackerni wants to unite people around the concept of God as change. But then he thinks he sees God "out there" as the Multiverse. This appears to contradict his idea that God is merely a concept. All of this I look for him to explain. I was just questioning him about the problems inherent in metaphysics given the subjectivity of all we know.

Science works from time space matter and causality as givens. Kant found they are subjective intuitions of the mind. They are the very structures of intelligibilty in which we preceive the world. Any metaphysical system that fails to address these epistemological facts adequately is a non-starter by modern standards.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on these matters. Do you think the senses provide us with direct awareness of objects as they really are?
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10953
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon May 09, 2022 5:50 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Hume started from a single but important concept in Metaphysics, viz., that of Cause and Effect (including its derivatives force and action, etc.). He challenges reason, which pretends to have given birth to this idea from herself, to answer him by what right she thinks anything to be so constituted, that if that thing be posited, something else also must necessarily be posited; for this is the meaning of the concept of cause. He demonstrated irrefutably that it was perfectly impossible for reason to think a priori and by means of concepts a combination involving necessity. We cannot at all see why, in consequence of the existence of one thing, another must necessarily exist, or how the concept of such a combination can arise a priori. Hence he inferred, that reason was altogether deluded with reference to this concept, which she erroneously considered as one of her children, whereas in reality it was nothing but a bastard of imagination, impregnated by experience, which subsumed certain representations under the Law of Association, and mistook the subjective necessity of habit for an objective necessity arising from insight. Hence he inferred that reason had no power to think such combinations, even generally, because her concepts would then be purely fictitious, and all her pretended a priori cognitions nothing but common experiences marked with a false stamp. In plain language there is not, and cannot be, any such thing as metaphysics at all.

Kant, Immanuel. Kant's Prolegomena: To Any Future Metaphysics (pp. 7-8). anboco. Kindle Edition.

Sounds like a barrister preparing a jurist who he believes cannot think for himself - a contortion of presumptions inferring a certainty.

Do you think you could defend Kant's actual reasoning?

felix dakat wrote:Mackerni wants to unite people around the concept of God as change. But then he thinks he sees God "out there" as the Multiverse. This appears to contradict his idea that God is merely a concept. All of this I look for him to explain. I was just questioning him about the problems inherent in metaphysics given the subjectivity of all we know.

I think there is confusion concerning the concept called "metaphysics" - what it actually means. I think there is also confusion as to what "multiverse" actually means (to those who know anything about it).

felix dakat wrote:Science works from time space matter and causality as givens.

I can agree with that. Science is not philosophy - it just records and statistically analyses experiences. I'm not sure scientists are ever taught the word "ontology" (I know I wasn't) - so many ontological assumptions are injected in ignorance.

felix dakat wrote:Kant found they are subjective intuitions of the mind. They are the very structures of intelligibilty in which we preceive the world. Any metaphysical system that fails to address these epistemological facts adequately is a non-starter by modern standards.

He "found" or he subjectively presumed? How he "found" - would be worth hearing about.

felix dakat wrote:Do you think the senses provide us with direct awareness of objects as they really are?

Zookers - after going through James' materials - questions like that are hard to put into words.

What I currently have surmised is that the purpose of the conscious mind is to deduce how the "outside world" works so that we can better serve our inherent purpose in living - other than that - the outside influences are irrelevant - much like a nation's foreign affairs department versus internal affairs department.

I don't believe that proper deduction is merely subjective. I think that is where most of the disagreements and turmoil arise. Logic is actually concrete and when used properly provides indisputable realities of how that outside world functions - but is often improperly used - leading to all kinds of nonsense. Whoever wrote that piece obvious intuitively believes that same thing as he wrote - "He demonstrated irrefutably .." - how can anything be "irrefutable" if everything is merely subjective or less than concrete?

Anyway I would need to discuss it with someone very well versed in Kant's actual reasoning (else I would be discussing merely strawman arguments).
              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --

The prospect of death weighs naught upon the purpose of life - James S Saint - 2009
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 09, 2022 6:30 pm

iambiguous wrote:1] a demonstrable proof of your own conception or definition of God or religious/spiritual path


Mackerni wrote:Change in a way is demonstrable enough in the fact that we know it happens. For example, everything is moving. The Earth is moving around the Sun. The Sun is moving around the Sagittarius A* black hole. And in fact there is no absolute zero in our Universe. No absolute zero means everything is vibrating as demonstrated by string theory. And if everything is vibrating, it is changing, no matter how slow or inconsequential it may be.

On the other hand, there may be Universes where there is no change. If change is God than no change means there is no God. And a Universe that can't change can't possibly have a cause or an effect.


Yes, when the demonstration basically revolves around words providing meaning for yet more words still -- "conceptually" or "by definition" -- all manner of sheer speculation is possible. But in regard to alleged Gods spoken of here, the sort of demonstration I am interested in is more along the lines of Christians providing evidence that the Pope occupies the Vatican. But, hey, that's just me.

iambiguous wrote:2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of conceptions and definitions of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?


Mackerni wrote: Concepts are abstract enough to be universally applied much of the time. Some concepts are abstract enough to not really mean anything. Beings however are are usually subjugated to a finite point. Zeus was worshipped; now he isn't. He is not accredited towards the change of many things anymore. The same will happen with Yahweh. If Yahweh wasn't accredited towards the change he applied on Earth - which I would argue he didn't even do - then nobody would worship him.

On the other hand, the concept of change and what causes it is so universal that nobody can deny it. Find me a language which change isn't in their dictionaries. It's impossible. Change is elusive sometimes, yes, and we don't fully understand it currently, but we know it so well already that it is impossible to deny.


Yes, and this addresses my point...how? Change in regard to what particular concept of God? Change in regard to what particular contexts in which conflicting understandings of these conceptual Gods results in conflicting behaviors that precipitate actual consequences for flesh and blood human beings. Again, given all of these different communities with all their different concepts of God and religion around the globe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... opulations

iambiguous wrote:3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's conception or definition of God and religious/spiritual faiths


Mackerni wrote: Dasein, presence, or what I would argue the seeking of patterns will always be an issue. A cloud could look like Mickey Mouse. Is the cloud Mickey Mouse? No. Does Mickey Mouse exist? No. Yet some people may look at that cloud and identify it as such. Will the cloud change and become new images to the people who see them? Of course. Mickey Mouse changes, but ironically enough change does not change.


On the other hand, individual reactions to clouds and Mickey Mouse are no where near as consequential as individual reactions to God and religion. And my points regarding dasein and religion revolve more around the points I raise on these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

I then ask others to note how and why their own reactions to God and religion are not like my own at all.

iambiguous wrote:4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular conception and definition of God or religious/spiritual path


Well, if change is God, and not all changes are positive, it makes a strong argument that change itself causes evil too. Evil could be analyzed differently to various people too, and what a positive or negative change would look like could be entirely subjective.


Here's the thing though. Earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes, floods, droughts, tornadoes, viruses, extinction events etc., while sometimes attributed to or exacerbated by mere mortals, are far, far, far more attributable to God. If there be a God. And this God is said to be both omniscient and omnipotent.

These terrible events are hardly just conceptual experiences. The consequences endured by millions and millions around the globe are hardly just so "by definition".

Instead, the concept most fall back on here is God's "mysterious ways".

As for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthseed

And this:

Mackerni wrote: As far as conceptions and definitions of God, Earthseed doesn't offer the kind of bullshit that we see other religions. It's simple. Earthseed states that change is God; syntheism is the theology of Earthseed, and while Earthseed is a fictional religion it doesn't mean it's a fictional idea, and there's been to my knowledge four real religions that have existed under the umbrella of Earthseed. Terasem, Exaltism, Turing Church and Astronism. If you were to call me any of the first three I would agree with your assessment in fact. All four are Earthseed but touch and develop their basis on different patterns in the transhumanist and futurist tree. Terasem is straight transhumanist; Exaltism is focused on extropianism; Turing Church is cosmist; And Astronism is astrological. And out of the four I would argue that Terasem has the most ability to change the future, even if the question of the religion's future is already at stake.


I'll let you take that up with all the other folks here who prefer their own Gods and their own religions to revolve almost entirely around purely speculative "spiritual contraptions" that, in my own opinion, pretty much avoid [as you do] bringing it all "down to Earth".

Well, at least as I understand this.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 46421
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Mon May 09, 2022 9:36 pm

I'm not going to follow this thread anymore.

I just want to let people know that I think change is both entropic and extropic. Entropy is chaos; randomness; and in general slows change. Extropy seeks to accelerate change and is also orderly. Because extropy accelerates change rather than slow it, it will eventually "conquer" entropy. The problem of evil can be solved like this: entropy. Easy. I made a Venn Diagram to explain entropy and extropy and my perceived qualities of each.

I want to let everybody know that I do NOT believe entropy and extropy are complete opposites. In fact, both need each other in order to work. Like the Tao. The duality of nature.
Attachments
Divinity Diagram.jpg
Divinity Diagram.jpg (39.68 KiB) Viewed 271 times
Mackerni
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:11 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI, United States

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Tue May 10, 2022 7:37 pm

God is the being and the action. I am an infusion of designated natural and syntheistic theologies.

The prime mover is The Omniverse. Its action; change; is entropy and extropy.

I have designed a kabbalah for Exaltist philosophy.
Attachments
Exaltism Kabbalah.jpg
Exaltism Kabbalah.jpg (232.23 KiB) Viewed 244 times
Mackerni
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:11 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI, United States

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Tue May 10, 2022 8:59 pm

The being is eternal; the action is eternal.
The being cannot exist without action; the action cannot exist without the being.
Change consists of both the action and the being.
Mackerni
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:11 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI, United States

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Tue May 10, 2022 9:41 pm

Venn diagram to explain this.
Attachments
Trinitarianism in Exaltism.jpg
Trinitarianism in Exaltism.jpg (38.05 KiB) Viewed 230 times
Mackerni
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:11 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI, United States

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 11, 2022 4:57 pm

Mackerni wrote:I'm not going to follow this thread anymore.


Well, I hope it wasn't anything that I said.

From my own "rooted existentially in dasein" frame of mind, you are just one more "phenomenal_graffiti" here. You have managed to concoct this "conceptual God" in a truly elaborate intellectual/spiritual contraption. Believing it then becomes the whole point. It is the belief itself that sustains your comfort and consolation. That feeling of being anchored to the One True Path.

I know. I was once able to do it myself with a more traditional understanding of the Christian God.

As I once noted with Maia, would that someone could invent a machine that, hooked up to it, allowed us to think the thoughts and feel the emotions of those who view reality in ways that are truly bizarre to us.

Those with a "condition" and those without one.

Anyway, if your "conceptual" God and religion does in fact soothe you soul, more power to you. What I wouldn't give myself to have all that back again.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 46421
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed May 11, 2022 6:15 pm

Mackerni, if you’re still around, feedback requested here: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=197724
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6113
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed May 11, 2022 6:16 pm

Biggy:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”

C. S. Lewis
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6113
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby phyllo » Wed May 11, 2022 6:32 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:Biggy:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”

C. S. Lewis
This has been pointed out to him many times, but Biggus has fixed ideas about religion and you ain't gonna shift him.
User avatar
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 13131
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed May 11, 2022 7:02 pm

There is only one Unmoved Mover. But we get our being from that Being.

I just do my part in the Grand Tectonic.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6113
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 11, 2022 8:15 pm

phyllo wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:Biggy:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”

C. S. Lewis
This has been pointed out to him many times, but Biggus has fixed ideas about religion and you ain't gonna shift him.


Right.

I'm sure there are perhaps a handfull of Christians here who approach their faith as Father Ralph de Bricassart did:

Frank: Why did you become a priest?
Ralph: Because I Iove God. And I want to help others feel his love. Why do you ask Frank?
Frank: Because you don't act much like a priest to me.
Ralph: Being out here gives me an escape from my duties at the Parish. I need that I'm afraid.
Frank: I can understand that well enough. Stuck out here in this hellish place.
Ralph: The Church has such power Frank. Or, rather, God has working through the Church. The power to shape the lives of millions and millions of people...to change the whole course of history. And I want to be a part of that. I try to hold the thought that even out here I do share in that power...but sometimes I find it very difficult.
Frank: Then why don't you escape? Why do you put it with it, a man like you? You could be anything you wanted to be.
Ralph: And yet I'd give up every ambition...every desire in me to be the perfect priest.
Frank [shaking his head with scorn and derision]: "The perfect priest".
Ralph: How can I explain? I'm a vessel Frank...and sometimes I am filled with God. If I were a better priest there would be no periods of emptiness, no need to escape. I would always be filled with God. That to me would be perfection.
Frank [again with scorn]: Nobody could be that perfect...not even you.
Ralph: Perhaps me least of all."


Not all Christians are, uh, pinheads.

And though I am not arguing that she is a pinhead, I'm not arguing that she is not either.

My only question is what on earth is she doing here in a philosophy venue?

As for phyllo, he pops in from time to time to make all of this about me. In other words, nothing at all like the old phyllo. Of course ILP itself is nothing at all like it used to be either.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 46421
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ichthus77 » Wed May 11, 2022 9:30 pm

Is “she” me? If so, you are such a weirdo! We’ve established that. We’re a couple o’ weirdos.

Does being a pinhead mean thinking you’re perfect? Have I given the impression I think I’m perfect?

Where else would I be when I love the truth and seek it? Do ya love philosophy or doncha?

We absolutely need both philosophy and science. You miss stuff when you only do one. For example — when you put stuff together from philosophy of mind, cognition, and counseling techniques… BAM… fire! To adapt words oft attributed to Einstein, science without philosophy is lame, philosophy without science is blind. The same is true with faith & works, like with music & dancing. You feel the music in your body (red), you intellectually grasp it in your mind (yellow), and you respond in dancing (blue). You need all three for a full experience.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6113
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ierrellus » Thu May 12, 2022 12:25 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:Is “she” me? If so, you are such a weirdo! We’ve established that. We’re a couple o’ weirdos.

Does being a pinhead mean thinking you’re perfect? Have I given the impression I think I’m perfect?

Where else would I be when I love the truth and seek it? Do ya love philosophy or doncha?

We absolutely need both philosophy and science. You miss stuff when you only do one. For example — when you put stuff together from philosophy of mind, cognition, and counseling techniques… BAM… fire! To adapt words oft attributed to Einstein, science without philosophy is lame, philosophy without science is blind. The same is true with faith & works, like with music & dancing. You feel the music in your body (red), you intellectually grasp it in your mind (yellow), and you respond in dancing (blue). You need all three for a full experience.

Einstein's quote was about science and religion. Philosophy is close to science, so the adapted quote loses much of its meaning.
What amazes me about this entire thread is its reliance on concepts or ideas. God is an experience; if you never had one, you must reduce God to an idea. At 10 years of age I had a born-again experience. It has lasted 70 years. If you have to ask what it was like, you haven't had one. The experience is available to All.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Ierrellus
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 13779
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: state of evolving

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby MagsJ » Thu May 12, 2022 1:39 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:Is “she” me? If so, you are such a weirdo! We’ve established that. We’re a couple o’ weirdos.

Does being a pinhead mean thinking you’re perfect? Have I given the impression I think I’m perfect?

Where else would I be when I love the truth and seek it? Do ya love philosophy or doncha?

We absolutely need both philosophy and science. You miss stuff when you only do one. For example — when you put stuff together from philosophy of mind, cognition, and counseling techniques… BAM… fire! To adapt words oft attributed to Einstein, science without philosophy is lame, philosophy without science is blind. The same is true with faith & works, like with music & dancing. You feel the music in your body (red), you intellectually grasp it in your mind (yellow), and you respond in dancing (blue). You need all three for a full experience.

Einstein's quote was about science and religion. Philosophy is close to science, so the adapted quote loses much of its meaning.
What amazes me about this entire thread is its reliance on concepts or ideas. God is an experience; if you never had one, you must reduce God to an idea. At 10 years of age I had a born-again experience. It has lasted 70 years. If you have to ask what it was like, you haven't had one. The experience is available to All.

One would think that this place is run amock with sock-puppets galore, as most of the new threads are very questionable indeed.. or it could just be the thread authors that are [questionable]. :|

:lol:
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 25062
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: Suryaloka / LDN Town

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 3:22 pm

iambiguous wrote:Well, I hope it wasn't anything that I said.


It wasn't. I still read what you post on here. You are an exceptionally brilliant person. My post wasn't created to argue against the semantics, including what I constituent what action, change and being is, although doing so has helped clarified my opinions on such matters.

Some people need to verbalize their arguments. To create a thread that essentially becomes a landfill of their thoughts. You already alluded to this. And again, I didn't want this to become another pointless philosophical argument thread, although it already seems like it has.

I shared what I needed to share. Take it or leave it.
Mackerni
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:11 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI, United States

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu May 12, 2022 3:37 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:Is “she” me? If so, you are such a weirdo! We’ve established that. We’re a couple o’ weirdos.

Does being a pinhead mean thinking you’re perfect? Have I given the impression I think I’m perfect?

Where else would I be when I love the truth and seek it? Do ya love philosophy or doncha?

We absolutely need both philosophy and science. You miss stuff when you only do one. For example — when you put stuff together from philosophy of mind, cognition, and counseling techniques… BAM… fire! To adapt words oft attributed to Einstein, science without philosophy is lame, philosophy without science is blind. The same is true with faith & works, like with music & dancing. You feel the music in your body (red), you intellectually grasp it in your mind (yellow), and you respond in dancing (blue). You need all three for a full experience.

Einstein's quote was about science and religion. Philosophy is close to science, so the adapted quote loses much of its meaning.
What amazes me about this entire thread is its reliance on concepts or ideas. God is an experience; if you never had one, you must reduce God to an idea. At 10 years of age I had a born-again experience. It has lasted 70 years. If you have to ask what it was like, you haven't had one. The experience is available to All.


God didn’t bring me back through reason. Looks like you had a better “trip“ that I did (no drugs for me in 2005). Hence my current position as a reason pusher. ;)

Reminder: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... 7#p2870467
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
User avatar
Ichthus77
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6113
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Another small dump.

I revised my bi-Venn diagram.
Attachments
Action Without Being - Exaltist Understanding.jpg
Action Without Being - Exaltist Understanding.jpg (49.12 KiB) Viewed 103 times
Mackerni
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:11 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI, United States

PreviousNext

Return to Religion and Spirituality



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron