A New Type of Theology in a New World

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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 4:43 pm

So God = Evolution. Got it!

So anyone that believes that God created humans is saying that evolution created humans. Got it!

So anyone that believes God created humans is arguing against God when they argue against evolution. Got it!

To argue against evolution is to argue against God. Got it!

0 = 0
1 = 1
0 = 1
1 = 0

None for none and all for all!
None for all and all for none!
All for none and none for all!
All for all and none for none!
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 4:54 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:So God = Evolution. Got it!


That is not what I'm saying.

First of all, not all change is evolution, and not all evolution is extropy. Secondly, entropy is not evolution by any regard. And third, The Omniverse is the first being that only allowed change to exist.

This is just one of the reasons why I haven't overlooked this entire thread after my initial departure. Motor Daddy as this warped idea of what evolution is, he constituents it as all action, change and being when it isn't.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby iambiguous » Thu May 12, 2022 5:18 pm

Mackerni wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Well, I hope it wasn't anything that I said.


It wasn't. I still read what you post on here. You are an exceptionally brilliant person. My post wasn't created to argue against the semantics, including what I constituent what action, change and being is, although doing so has helped clarified my opinions on such matters.

Some people need to verbalize their arguments. To create a thread that essentially becomes a landfill of their thoughts. You already alluded to this. And again, I didn't want this to become another pointless philosophical argument thread, although it already seems like it has.

I shared what I needed to share. Take it or leave it.


A pointless philosophical thread? Or a spiritual thread in which the point seems to revolve around everything but, in my view, the reason that Gods and religious paths were/are/will be "thought up" in the first place: to connect the dots existentially between morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side of it.

Over and again: that is what is at stake for mere mortals. How ought I to behave here and now in order to attain the best of all possible worlds [for my soul] there and then.

With or without a Judgment Day, that's religion in a cultural and historical nutshell. Or so it still seems to me.

In fact, I created my own thread here for those willing to explore God and religion along those lines: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=186929

And I shared my reaction to the points you noted above. And you have decided to leave that exchange where it is now.

Fair enough. Your soul no doubt is still intact. And the comfort and the consolation this new theology provides you is sustained. And that is always the bottom line here. Not what you can demonstrate to others that what you believe about God [conceptually or otherwise'] is true but that it remains true for you. Call it then a "leap of faith". Call it a "wager".

As I noted above: "What I wouldn't give myself to have all that back again."
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 5:30 pm

iambiguous wrote: Not what you can demonstrate to others that what you believe about God [conceptually or otherwise'] is true but that it remains true for you.


Yes; the point of this thread was to help me mend the dasein I was experiencing and provide some clarity I was seeking. And I found that. However, that doesn't mean I won't one day completely deconstruct God in a way that will help many others see divinity the way I see fit. Now that I know who I am and have changed since this mess started I know what to do someday when my mind, soul and being are up for it. Coming one day: On Action and Being book near you. This was merely the start of that.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby iambiguous » Thu May 12, 2022 5:37 pm

Mackerni wrote:
iambiguous wrote: Not what you can demonstrate to others that what you believe about God [conceptually or otherwise'] is true but that it remains true for you.


Yes; the point of this thread was to help me mend the dasein I was experiencing and provide some clarity I was seeking. And I found that. However, that doesn't mean I won't one day completely deconstruct God in a way that will help many others see divinity the way I see fit. Now that I know who I am and have changed since this mess started I know what to do someday when my mind, soul and being are up for it. Coming one day: On Action and Being book near you. This was merely the start of that.


Yo!

felix and bob and dan and phyllo and obsrvr and Ierrellus and magsJ and her: You're up! 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 5:54 pm

Mackerni wrote:Motor Daddy as this warped idea of what evolution is, he constituents it as all action, change and being when it isn't.


Seems pretty simple to me. "Evolution" is a word meaning:


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution

evo·​lu·​tion | \ ˌe-və-ˈlü-shən , ˌē-və- \
Definition of evolution
1a: descent with modification from preexisting species : cumulative inherited change in a population of organisms through time leading to the appearance of new forms : the process by which new species or populations of living things develop from preexisting forms through successive generations
Evolution is a process of continuous branching and diversification from common trunks. This pattern of irreversible separation gives life's history its basic directionality.
— Stephen Jay Gould
also : the scientific theory explaining the appearance of new species and varieties through the action of various biological mechanisms (such as natural selection, genetic mutation or drift, and hybridization)
Since 1950, developments in molecular biology have had a growing influence on the theory of evolution.
— Nature
In Darwinian evolution, the basic mechanism is genetic mutation, followed by selection of the organisms most likely to survive.
— Pamela Weintraub
b: the historical development of a biological group (such as a species) : PHYLOGENY
2a: a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING
b: the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION
c(1): a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH
(2): a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance
d: something evolved
3: the process of working out or developing
4: the extraction of a mathematical root
5: a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena
6: one of a set of prescribed movements
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 6:03 pm

Motor Daddy; the dictionary wrote:c(1): a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH


Based on that definition I would contend that you are correct. God is evolution; growth. I prefer the word growth over evolution however. When I use the word evolution I'm usually more specific in the definition than that broad statement.

The way that very definition is worded is actually amazing simple and perfect to describe how and what I see as divine.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 6:13 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Motor Daddy; the dictionary wrote:c(1): a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH


Based on that definition I would contend that you are correct.


Right. So what you are saying is:


So God = Evolution. Got it!

So anyone that believes that God created humans is saying that evolution created humans. Got it!

So anyone that believes God created humans is arguing against God when they argue against evolution. Got it!

To argue against evolution is to argue against God. Got it!

0 = 0
1 = 1
0 = 1
1 = 0

None for none and all for all!
None for all and all for none!
All for none and none for all!
All for all and none for none!



Don't you see how contradictory that is? It is NONSENSE!
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 6:21 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:Don't you see how contradictory that is? It is NONSENSE!


Maybe there is a sameness with being. If any being is subjugated to extreme amounts of entropy or extropy; change; action; or evolution; it no longer exists as that being. Maybe what the God crowd is really saying is this prime mover that doesn't change and constitutes as the perfect being - although I would argue that something that does not change cannot be perfect - ultimately created man rather than change; growth; evolution, etc.

Edit: Really think about this. "Liberals" would contend most change is good; "conservatives" would contend most change is bad. "Conservatives" are the ones that believe in this prime mover that doesn't change; they call it God; I call it The Omniverse. "Liberals" tend to be more secular and believe that action is more important than being, or sameness.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 6:35 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Motor Daddy wrote:Don't you see how contradictory that is? It is NONSENSE!


Maybe there is a sameness with being. If any being is subjugated to extreme amounts of entropy or extropy; change; action; or evolution; it no longer exists as that being. Maybe what the God crowd is really saying is this prime mover that doesn't change and constitutes as the perfect being - although I would argue that something that does not change cannot be perfect - ultimately created man rather than change; growth; evolution, etc.

Edit: Really think about this. "Liberals" would contend most change is good; "conservatives" would contend most change is bad. "Conservatives" are the ones that believe in this prime mover that doesn't change; they call it God; I call it The Omniverse. "Liberals" tend to be more secular and believe that action is more important than being, or sameness.


There is no such thing as an object that doesn't change, you are making that up in your head.

Objects change with time. Period!

The ONLY inevitable "non-change" is space, which is nothing. We measure space as distance in 3 dimensions, and we call it volume.

To make a claim that an object does not change is making a false claim.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 6:38 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:To make a claim that an object does not change is making a false claim.


Why do you think I believe God is change? Also, certain things can stay the same for a given amount of time.

Edit: The Omniverse is always The Omniverse. The Omniverse changes but the concept of The Omniverse will always remain the same. That is the monolith of monotheistic thought.
Last edited by Mackerni on Thu May 12, 2022 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 6:47 pm

Mackerni wrote:Why do you think I believe God is change? Also, certain things can stay the same for a given amount of time.


There a many words in your opening post that suggest you think change is God. For instance you stated:


Mackerni wrote: If syntheism is accurate then the change we create in the world and beyond is God.


God is not a change in the world. You are basically saying God is change. That is basically saying God is evolution. That is basically saying Evolution created people. Do you not see the contradiction in that?

People believe God created people and they argue against the thought of people being created through evolution.

As to your statement that things can stay the same for a certain amount of time. Not really, it's just that change is happening so slow you can't measure it or see the change occur.
Look in the mirror everyday for a year and you would not see a difference in your age. Someone else sees you a year later and does not recognize you because you changed so much in a year.

If something constantly changes 1 inch over the course of 1,000 years you will not be able to measure or detect it, your life only lasts maybe 100 years.

Things change VERY VERY slowly, and we can't detect that, but they are changing nonetheless.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:11 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:Things change VERY VERY slowly, and we can't detect that, but they are changing nonetheless.


Here is the thing though. In religion God does not change. Conservatives value consistency. I believed The Omniverse is God because it is the only thing that cannot not exist. Existence is as important as change. If something changes and doesn't exist anymore, it is not consistent. The existence of an apple for the short time it exists as an apple is important because when I eat it, it changes to nutrition to replenish my body. However, I cannot destroy The Omniverse. It will always exist. And this is why for a long time I considered it God above change. The Omniverse existed; therefore it created entropy; therefore entropy created extropy. I do no longer believe that. Entropy and extropy are both actions. Actions are not beings. Actions are not God. In fact, action may be the opposite of existence.* Something that exists and does not change does not exist.

I'll put it to you like this. What if God creating human rather than nature creating human, intelligent design, is God's own evolution of his Earth/world creation?

*Edit: I want to clarify this. When matter and anti-matter collide, providing action, there is no existence of anything. That's why I said this.
Last edited by Mackerni on Thu May 12, 2022 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 7:25 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Here is the thing though. In religion God does not change.
I'll put it to you like this. What if God creating human rather than nature creating human, intelligent design, is God's own evolution of his Earth/world creation?


I'll put it to you like this:

There is no purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens in the sky that eat people. There is not a shred of evidence that purple flying Volkswagens eat people.

See?

For me to make an assumption like that is just some bad illusion in my head. If I really believe that purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens exist then I need to provide some sort of evidence for that claim.

Likewise, for someone to claim there is a "God" needs to provide some sort of evidence, of which there is none.

So "God" and "purple with blue spots Volkswagens" are both unsupported claims.

To go on telling stories about God or purple with blue spots Volkswagens is bordering on mental illness, ESPECIALLY if you talk to purple with blue spots Volkswagens before you go to bed every night, and FOR SURE if the Volkswagens ANSWER YOU.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:28 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:I'll put it to you like this:


I'm not responding to this.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 7:30 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Motor Daddy wrote:I'll put it to you like this:


I'm not responding to this.


Of course not, because you have NO EVIDENCE that there is something called "God."

If you talk to him and he answers you then you should get checked out by a professional.
Last edited by Motor Daddy on Thu May 12, 2022 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:31 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:Of course not, because you have NO EVIDENCE that there is something called "God."

If you talk to him and he answers you you should get checked out by a professional.


You are wasting my time.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 7:33 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Motor Daddy wrote:Of course not, because you have NO EVIDENCE that there is something called "God."

If you talk to him and he answers you you should get checked out by a professional.


You are wasting my time.


You are wasting your own time talking about purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens that eat people. On top of that you are trying to define the Volkswagens as Chevrolets, even after you defined them to be Volkswagens.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:38 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:You are wasting your own time talking about purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens that eat people. On top of that you are trying to define the Volkswagens as Chevrolets, even after you defined them to be Volkswagens.


Have I really changed my argument though? I value the being and the action. I see purpose in them both. Together beings and actions become change. And the changes that entropy and extropy exude are God, like your definition of evolution.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 7:48 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Motor Daddy wrote:You are wasting your own time talking about purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens that eat people. On top of that you are trying to define the Volkswagens as Chevrolets, even after you defined them to be Volkswagens.


Have I really changed my argument though? I value the being and the action. I see purpose in them both. Together beings and actions become change. And the changes that entropy and extropy exude are God, like your definition of evolution.


People that believe in the traditional "God of the bible" believe that "God" created the Earth and people.

If your "God" didn't create Earth and people then you should use a different word, because when you say the word "God" people generally take that to mean the God of the Bible, which said "let there be light" and also created the Earth and Heaven."

Call your thing "Evolution" and you'll be taken seriously, because we know evolution exists from EVIDENSE.

If you don't like that word then call it change and talk about that change. But using the word "God" meaning "change" is a non-starter.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:50 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:Call your thing "Evolution" and you'll be taken seriously, because we know evolution exists from EVIDENSE.


Believe it or not you have something in common with fundamentalist Christians. Both you and them think the Bible should be taken literally.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 7:52 pm

Mackerni wrote:Believe it or not you have something in common with fundamentalist Christians. Both you and them think the Bible should be taken literally.


So there should be a big disclaimer on the front of the book that says "WARNING - The content of this book should not be taken seriously, it is strictly a metaphor for Evolution."
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:54 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:So there should be a big disclaimer on the front of the book that says "WARNING - The content of this book should not be taken seriously, it is strictly a metaphor for Evolution."


Maybe. But I would make one correction: Christian evolution.

Believe it or not I think a lot like you. I believe in a general sense of naturalistic evolution rather than Christian. I still believe in God though.
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu May 12, 2022 7:57 pm

Mackerni wrote:I still believe in God though.


Even though there isn't a shred of evidence I still believe there are purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens that eat people.

So we are two peas in a pod!

...and I SWEAR TO GOD they answer me when I talk to them!
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Re: A New Type of Theology in a New World

Postby Mackerni » Thu May 12, 2022 7:58 pm

Motor Daddy wrote:Even though there isn't a shred of evidence I still believe there are purple with blue spots flying Volkswagens that eat people.

So we are two peas in a pod!


Have you ever thought about expanding your idea of God that doesn't include the literal definitions of it placed in the Bible?
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