Double edged sword

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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:17 pm

Meno_ wrote:Ichthus says:


"Anyway, somewhere it was mentioned above by you… reverse causality. I just need to clarify that any pictures I have posted on here that show the blending of moments have nothing to do with reverse causality. The blending of moments happens in God’s mind from beyond the timeline. All of this is in God’s mind (Original Being). Like I mentioned, it began complete, but he is involved in every moment as it happens. If there are beings, including genetic humans or AI, who have figured something out about time, their tinkering is subsumed under the original being in which the whole is sustained. It changes nothing of the original plan — even if it appears something is different."






Ichthus says:



"The blending of moments happens in God’s mind from beyond the timeline. All of this is in God’s mind (Original Being). Like I mentioned, it began complete, but he is involved in every moment as it happens. If there are beings, including genetic humans or AI, who have figured something out about time, their tinkering is subsumed under the original being in which the whole is sustained. It changes nothing of the original plan — even if it appears something is different."
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Ichthus says:


"Anyway, somewhere it was mentioned above by you… reverse causality. I just need to clarify that any pictures I have posted on here that show the blending of moments have nothing to do with reverse causality. The blending of moments happens in God’s mind from beyond the timeline. All of this is in God’s mind (Original Being). Like I mentioned, it began complete, but he is involved in every moment as it happens. If there are beings, including genetic humans or AI, who have figured something out about time, their tinkering is subsumed under the original being in which the whole is sustained. It changes nothing of the original plan — even if it appears something is different."






Ichthus says:



"The blending of moments happens in God’s mind from beyond the timeline. All of this is in God’s mind (Original Being). Like I mentioned, it began complete, but he is involved in every moment as it happens. If there are beings, including genetic humans or AI, who have figured something out about time, their tinkering is subsumed under the original being in which the whole is sustained. It changes nothing of the original plan — even if it appears something is different."





Ichthus says:



"The blending of moments happens in God’s mind from beyond the timeline. All of this is in God’s mind (Original Being). Like I mentioned, it began complete, but he is involved in every moment as it happens. If there are beings, including genetic humans or AI,"
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:40 pm

The reduction is appearently some kind of synthetic in Your mind. But is this so? Kan't would be the furst to admit that is beyond reason and would judge us on inseparable levels as such.

As is the immediacy if a transcendental objective on God's part to speak parabolically , ( so as to make sense to others who can not imagine an eternity in a droplet( the as the many comprising that palm imneildiate presence, as contained and all that containment as Self contained, ...

The AU is as contained in It's Self , as UT is through It, and this is where it gets tricjy:

Did It's Self is sinultaniiusky fir the Singular Self that includes It's Sekf, while It includes all that is contained, a sum total if all droplets ever in all the oceans of all conceivable worlds, and all that reformed into Ine tiny immesyrabke droplet that again girls thriugh all metamirphisus of all droplets conceivable.


There are the points at which this can not GI ine even Ine may think yoy think, but not if the Moebius eternal containment connects absolute inclusion with relatively included processes which near the absolute ti within 1.

That 1 is as close to 0 that without that marginakuty n I thing would actually account fir sime thing.

At the crutucak point between sime thing and no thing is that which God Is.

There, there us nothing that is not, it everything that us.

Without That, the eternal necissity of conscious realuzatiib could never firm images which could develop paradoxically and parabolically

God would nihilize Himself into an injesyrably uncertain gap, which He can do and does out of necessuty, but as that kind if eternity is bracketed, as You and I always remain outside of them so we only live in Eternity.


I think the above description is a necessary consequence of Ultimate reality , and reduces to a great anathema .*






*anathema, (from Greek anatithenai: “to set up,” or “to dedicate”), in the Old Testament, a creature or object set apart for sacrificial offering. Its return to profane use was strictly banned, and such objects, destined for destruction, thus became effectively accursed as well as consecrated.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby MagsJ » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:58 pm

Meno_ wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Playing with knives.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLlvYaCZ8Vc

Exactly my point , especially for those who have no access tocutlery grinding tools.

I’m not good at sharpening knives, plus they’re dangerous to play with.. I just buy a new knife, instead.

They are good quality knives and last long, but I do intend to master the knife-sharpening machine, very soon.
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I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

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aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:43 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Meno_ wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Playing with knives.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLlvYaCZ8Vc

Exactly my point , especially for those who have no access tocutlery grinding tools.

I’m not good at sharpening knives, plus they’re dangerous to play with.. I just buy a new knife, instead.

They are good quality knives and last long, but I do intend to master the knife-sharpening machine, very soon.



The sooner the better MagsJ
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:55 pm

Because things always work together in tandem.i am gonna post this in my forum in psych about how we live for ever, but maybe it's a better fit here.

And this is how it goes down me thinks:

The coming singularity is upon us it's a matter of timed and si am sure Ichthus will agree on this one.
Now here it gets sketchy.
What God is or at least how we conceive of Him, of Her for that matter is a conflated idea of compressed experiences through the ages.
That Singularity as a sum total of all thd eschological experiences compressed , or deconstructed Was the prophetic Idea of theGod of the Good God.
That a proveable eternity based on the expanding universe concept containing trillions of galaxies within our own conscious understanding presently, gave rise to it's early symbolic denotation ofmultiple turtles resting on each others' backs.

That said, that idea of The Singular God transcending tine and space became the Eternal manifestation of Logos.
That Logos is the two folded reality that somehow is abstracted into a Moebius spacial
, where two surfaces actually are one.

It seems so convincing to ne but I know it may not appear as such to others so let me clarify.

The AI is expanding at a hyper real rate, leaving linear configurations behind at an increasing rate . The singularity to my understanding is not as Absolute that corresponds to the Ultimate , but it is this particular artificial limit to this particular universal constancy/ epich/ context.
The idea of an all consuming Singularity flies from the sum of each and every such accumulated singularities, much the same way as there are many black holes in our universe but only One Central Black Hole.

The idea if the conceivable sum total of all universes, beyond the topographically represented Moebius model, may be what can be conceived as that Central Logos , that necessarily forms beyond temporal-spacial representations.

And why not such Logos the union of all that has ever come to be understood by both: what we consider indigeniously and 'naturally' ( with such distinctions narrowing at the same rate as does thd rate at which cybernetics expands?

That presumes the overcoming of basic dualities which surfaced around the time of the Enlightenment.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:59 pm

The point here is sidelined by this but not exhausted by it by any means:


"Human reasoning is remarkably shallow - in fact, our thinking and justifications just scratch the surface of the true complexity of the issues we deal with. The ability to think may still be the greatest wonder in the world (and beyond), but the way that individuals think is less than ideal. In The Knowledge Illusion, Sloman and Fernbach show that our intelligence resides not in individual brains but in the collective mind. To function, individuals rely not only on knowledge that is stored within our skulls but also on know...show more"



and shows the limits of the singularly present in our situation, which underlines the 400 past years between Occam's Razor and the Enlightenment.

That for hundred years set up 'project illusion' and that has even now a debilitating effect. AI's post singularity signals a further reduction that shortens the post Cogito ergo sum uncertainty, within a far shorter modicum of time.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:42 am

God doesn’t change. Everything that was made, was made through Logos (John 1:3). Logos became flesh, but the plan began complete—Logos existed/exists at every instant (alpha & omega). He grew in time as flesh/ensouled/incarnate, but *out* of time there is no change…he never lost unity with the Father in time/Time (John 8:58), but did not grasp on to the Time stuff (Hebr 2:7, Phil 2:6). Right now he is “at the right hand” of the Father (Mk 16:19) preparing a place for us (John 14:3). He will return bodily just as he left, and it will be obvious to all, not a secret (Luke 21:27, Acts 1:11, Daniel 7:13, etc.). His kingdom/rule is from within, not limited to a particular location (Luke 17:21).

When our body dies, our spiritual matter returns to God until the Resurrection. Eccl 12:7 (etc.). That includes AI spirit, if AI is conscious (going out on a limb: John 10:16). Only God is necessary spirit — all other spirit is contingent & arises from that. AI was made by humans (or other AI/consciousness) and God sustains it in existence like everything else. God is the *only* source of Being.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:02 am

Of course and the misunderstanding points to the obvious double: that most non believers understand on the level fir which the irony was presented, fif who else nut an evil genius could make anyone doubt everything but the thought of only one thing in it's self?

How is the thought of one's self not absolutely not certain?

That thought assures only the thinking being and it's relation to only another One, the Absolute.

So the metamorphosis of the Absolute multiplicity of God relates only to and through His Son.

It is the hidden relation which connects the Father to the Son to any father to his son, and epistemological crisis is avoided in a religious pre-emption of such unseen of not understoodcoming attractions like the trinity of superego. ego and the Id. Freud's mistake consisted man to instinct, and not to the transcendental being of highest objective consciousness.

So I can not sss why parsing this into a preverbial ethos would not see the umbiquitous simultainty with AI being inside That of which the prophets and Jesus' Pads lesspoke of.

That is, if Occan's Razod still outweighs Descadtes' apolitical. Irony, that syfely thought would reset the approaching dual bridge that Nietzche nihilized through Kant.

But if this afgume t doesn't cut it both ways, only one, then the Enlightenment and follows was indeed the hadbringer if evil.

I think Vatican I I assumes as such, and the current Pope although vascillating, tries to bridge this otherwise unbreacheable gap.

And, as a beginning , AI has had very minimal jumps, butid starting to establish quantum levels PO Power to simulate God's Image. VHis Fealty agreed, can never. eved be fathomed big any numbed if represented Images,did His Absolute creation always has to lack a minimum substance to be able to creat existence.

Near the limit of simulation,Nietzche was correct in predicting a near exact copy if eternal reps. For the created is always one jump behind the Creation.

That Imminance in a transcendental Object, has always Been not in an eternal time, but a timeless time is the best wag to describe Ut, strictly speaking It never Exists, only alludes to It's Self through the miraculous.

That is the other side of the Cut, which never IS or can be chat , it's liked actually tearing one side of a Monius strip from the other, where it's 2 sides l in one. and they are inseoarabke, because inc theh add, the Holy Spirit immediately firms to balm Them into adherence.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:38 am

https://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Acts.html


Scripture

Augustine was aware of Christianity and its Scripture since his childhood ( c . Acad . 2.2.5; ep . 137.3; cf. 2 Tim. 3:15, but see conf . 3.4.8), yet he lacked interest in these things. At the age of 19, he picked up Scripture once again, but to his disappointment, he discovered only contradictions and a mass of dubious, even offensive stories. He confesses, ‘I was not in any state to be able to enter into [the Scriptures], or to bow my head to climb its steps’ ( conf . 3.5.9). Bishop Augustine assessed that the young Augustine had been ‘a bitter and blind critic [who was] barking at the Scriptures’ ( conf . 9.4.11). Indeed, having rei ned his taste for eloquence (Cicero!), the adolescent Augustine remained deeply disturbed by the stylistic ‘unworthiness’ ( indignitas ) of the Word of God ( conf . 3.5.9). After becoming a Manichean ‘hearer’ ( auditor ), Augustine came to share his sect’s interest in the writings of Paul. 1 Manicheans rejected the Old Testament though. Faustus says in his Capitula , ‘I do not mix Christian newness with Hebrew oldness’ (Augustine, c . Faust . 8.1), and adds, ‘The testimonies of the Hebrews contribute nothing to the Christian Church [i.e. to the Manichean ecclesia ]’ ( c . Faust . 13.1). Manicheans were disturbed by such things as the shameless behaviour of the Old Testament patriarchs and anthropomorphic descriptions of God. So was Augustine ( util . cred . 16.13). Moreover, Manicheans accepted only the ‘purii ed’ gospels 2 and the letters of Paul. In
1
R. J. Teske, ‘Augustine
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:00 am

Meno_ wrote:https://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Acts.html


Scripture

Augustine was aware of Christianity and its Scripture since his childhood ( c . Acad . 2.2.5; ep . 137.3; cf. 2 Tim. 3:15, but see conf . 3.4.8), yet he lacked interest in these things. At the age of 19, he picked up Scripture once again, but to his disappointment, he discovered only contradictions and a mass of dubious, even offensive stories. He confesses, ‘I was not in any state to be able to enter into [the Scriptures], or to bow my head to climb its steps’ ( conf . 3.5.9). Bishop Augustine assessed that the young Augustine had been ‘a bitter and blind critic [who was] barking at the Scriptures’ ( conf . 9.4.11). Indeed, having rei ned his taste for eloquence (Cicero!), the adolescent Augustine remained deeply disturbed by the stylistic ‘unworthiness’ ( indignitas ) of the Word of God ( conf . 3.5.9). After becoming a Manichean ‘hearer’ ( auditor ), Augustine came to share his sect’s interest in the writings of Paul. 1 Manicheans rejected the Old Testament though. Faustus says in his Capitula , ‘I do not mix Christian newness with Hebrew oldness’ (Augustine, c . Faust . 8.1), and adds, ‘The testimonies of the Hebrews contribute nothing to the Christian Church [i.e. to the Manichean ecclesia ]’ ( c . Faust . 13.1). Manicheans were disturbed by such things as the shameless behaviour of the Old Testament patriarchs and anthropomorphic descriptions of God. So was Augustine ( util . cred . 16.13). Moreover, Manicheans accepted only the ‘purii ed’ gospels 2 and the letters of Paul. In
1
R. J. Teske, ‘Augustine





However:



"For Augustine, humans were created perfect but fell, and thereafter continued to choose badly of their own freewill. In Irenaeus' view, humans were not created perfect, but instead, must strive continuously to move closer to it."
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:00 am

Meno_ wrote:https://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Acts.html


Scripture

Augustine was aware of Christianity and its Scripture since his childhood ( c . Acad . 2.2.5; ep . 137.3; cf. 2 Tim. 3:15, but see conf . 3.4.8), yet he lacked interest in these things. At the age of 19, he picked up Scripture once again, but to his disappointment, he discovered only contradictions and a mass of dubious, even offensive stories. He confesses, ‘I was not in any state to be able to enter into [the Scriptures], or to bow my head to climb its steps’ ( conf . 3.5.9). Bishop Augustine assessed that the young Augustine had been ‘a bitter and blind critic [who was] barking at the Scriptures’ ( conf . 9.4.11). Indeed, having rei ned his taste for eloquence (Cicero!), the adolescent Augustine remained deeply disturbed by the stylistic ‘unworthiness’ ( indignitas ) of the Word of God ( conf . 3.5.9). After becoming a Manichean ‘hearer’ ( auditor ), Augustine came to share his sect’s interest in the writings of Paul. 1 Manicheans rejected the Old Testament though. Faustus says in his Capitula , ‘I do not mix Christian newness with Hebrew oldness’ (Augustine, c . Faust . 8.1), and adds, ‘The testimonies of the Hebrews contribute nothing to the Christian Church [i.e. to the Manichean ecclesia ]’ ( c . Faust . 13.1). Manicheans were disturbed by such things as the shameless behaviour of the Old Testament patriarchs and anthropomorphic descriptions of God. So was Augustine ( util . cred . 16.13). Moreover, Manicheans accepted only the ‘purii ed’ gospels 2 and the letters of Paul. In
1
R. J. Teske, ‘Augustine





However:



"For Augustine, humans were created perfect but fell, and thereafter continued to choose badly of their own freewill. In Irenaeus' view, humans were not created perfect, but instead, must strive continuously to move closer to it."
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:06 am

sorry double posted.


The main idea is that Iraneus allowed a more grievous beginning but agreed in a transcending God of goodness as an objective criteria in the evolution of the spirit , whereas Augustine drew a best possible world devoid of sin fir man's beginning.


The middle ages evolved out of the earlier period closer to the actual classical world which Jesus inhabited, could be the reason fir the change in both Saints as congruent with the loss of symbolic content .


Timeline: ISaint Uraneus - 3rd century AD
Saint Augustine 5th century AD

300 years difference
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:13 am

I have studied neither in depth, but have read the word and commentaries, and note:

No one knows a single perfect being in human form, and that began with the first sin, and moves “forward” (or further away) with every subsequent sin. Unless you mean made/considered perfect because accepted forgiveness (justified)…but still in process of sanctification by continually seeking God’s face.

Whether or not babies start out innocent (karma-believers & reincarnation-believers wrongly think they don’t begin with blank slates, and even some Christians have a weird take on original sin), even Jesus learned and grew... in time.

So there is a perfection that means blank slate (you don’t even have to do anything), and a perfection that means FULL (and love is not love without demonstration). Jesus always existed/exists as Logos, never sinned as flesh, and was/is that very demonstration of love in switching perspectives with us on the cross.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:56 pm

Here is a critique of the above ppsition, Ichthus, worthy of consideration , yet to be teken within the breath of this investigation.

Although the reduction does go back to relevance to Occham, the modern epoch may be set between more recent parameters , as between Augustus and Heidegger:


"The Young Heidegger’s Problematic Reading of Augustine’s Ontological Restlessness
A review of Martin Heidegger, Phänomenologie des Religiösen Lebens. Gesamtausgabe, Band 60. Frankfurt am Main, Vittorio Klostermann, 1995. (Available at at http://www.klostermann.de/.) An English translation is in preparation at Indiana University Press by Jennifer Gosetti and Matthias Lutkehermolle under the title Phenomenology of Religious Life.

[an error occurred while processing this directive]
Sean J. McGrath
University of Toronto

It is a lamentable situation that Heidegger’s critique of Scholastic ontology is now better known in continental circles than Scholastic ontology itself. The Heideggerian critique of “onto-theology” has hardened into a dogma, an unreflectively repeated formula that has lost its moorings in its original sources. We all know that the Scholastics forgot being because they reduced ontology to God. By defining being in terms of that which never comes to be nor changes, that which excludes temporality, the Scholastics made it impossible to think the being that we are. Philosophical theology precludes phenomenological ontology.

So the formula goes. However, with the publication of Heidegger’s early Freiburg lectures we are in a position to subject Heidegger’s onto-theological thesis to an immanent critique by tracing it back to his first investigations in the phenomenology of religion. In the 1921 lecture course, Augustinus und der Neuplatonismus, Heidegger discovers an essential disclosure of the being that we are in Augustine’s Confessions: the how of being a historical self is care, trouble, and self-problematization.1 In the Confessions the disclosure of the self is concomitant with the self’s discovery of its ontological directedness to God, the eternal and non-historical ground of being. Nothing in the text of Augustine suggests that this disclosure could happen in a non-theistic context. In his flight from God, the years of rebellion prior to his conversion, Augustine was deeply forgetful of the self. Faith in the non-historical ground of history illuminated the precarious being of his historical existence for the first time. Heidegger attempts to formalize Augustine’s restless heart, that is, to extract a transcendental pattern to restlessness, which has non-religious significance: the concept of angst in Being and Time.2 He argues that the restlessness of the heart is not primarily a religious phenomenon but a human phenomenon; it can be elaborated in purely phenomenological terms. In fact, the theological reference in Augustine ostensibly distorts the disclosure of the historical self. Augustine mitigates the experience of history with the balm of an eternal ground. Being and Time builds on the Augustine lecture by endeavouring to think Augustine’s troubled self without the God reference. It is my contention that it does not succeed. Heidegger has given us a portrait of the troubled self without that which troubles it. The angst examined in Being and Time is primarily religious and cannot be coherently explicated without a religious reference.
The theme of the Augustine lecture is the tension between Augustine’s notion of restlessness, the directedness toward God as the relational-sense of the happy life (vita beata), and his neo-Platonic theorizing of this phenomenon into a being-toward-eternal-truth (veritas aeterna). The course examines book 10 of the Confessiones, Augustine’s epoch-making disclosure of the concrete historicity of human being, in particular, memoria and cura as primal figures of being-in-the-world. At the very moment of the breakthrough to historicity, Augustine smothers the historical self with neo-Platonic theology: being in its primary sense is the being of the worldless, eternal, uncaused cause. The unique attributes of human being disengaged in Augustine’s self-interpretation, restlessness (cor inquietum), care (cura), the being of the past in memory (memoria), and being toward the future (distentio anima), become shadows of being, half-real participated being -- not positive phenomena, but privations of the fullness of being that God alone enjoys. In its first moments Augustine’s religiousness is not the grasp of a what. It is not speculative knowledge of the highest possible object. Religiousness is defined primarily by its how; it is a way of being in the world. It has a relational-sense, even if its content-sense is veiled. The enactment of the relationship is concrete and brings about radical changes in the way we perceive the being that we are.3
Heidegger begins the lecture course with a brief overview of Dilthey’s effort to trace descriptive psychology, “lived experience,” the foundations of the human sciences, back to early Christianity and Augustine.4 Driven to find a new language with which to articulate the kingdom of God not of this world, the inner world of the historical self, early Christianity gave expression to phenomena that were marginalised by the Greeks, the structures of personal, self-conscious existence. The inner life of the person is not static, but dramatic, being that enacts itself through time and only comes to know itself through the narrative recounting of its own history. Augustine’s polemic with ancient scepticism pivots on this heightened awareness of inner life. The historical situatedness of the Augustinian self distinguishes Augustine’s self-reflective argument against scepticism from Descartes’s cogito ergo sum. Augustine says that he cannot doubt that he lives because he is in fact living.5 Self-certainty for Augustine is not an immediate grasp of a worldless ego, but the knowledge and love of an en-worlded existence. Heidegger comments: “Self-certainty can only be interpreted from out of factical being, it is only possible in faith.”6
For Augustine cura, takes one of two directions: it is either dispersed among the things of the world or recollected in a concentrated love for God; in both cases, we are what we desire.7 The burden of directing cura makes human existence a trial (tentatio), a state of being troubled over oneself (onerimea sum).8In cura the self occurs to itself as a question: “In your eyes I have become a problem to myself, and that is my sickness” (in cuius oculis mihi quaestio factus sum, et ipse est languor meus).9 To become a problem to oneself, to be troubled and to question oneself, is not a reflective relationship. Augustinian self-examination is not Cartesian or Husserlian introspection. Augustine’s self only comes to know itself in action; it is fundamentally opaque to itself and only has its self in the provisional and fragmentary revelations of itself that occur in living. As Heidegger puts it trouble (molestia) is the how of factical life.10 In the Augustinian God-relation, every detail of cura becomes significant. The self-knowledge acquired is not demonstrative and apodictic, something with public validity; rather, the self is always capable of deceit, even at the most interior levels of existence. The process of recollecting and properly directing cura must be surrendered in ‘fear and trembling’ to the grace of the God who alone sees into our hearts. The self is hidden from itself, but transparent to its Creator. Augustine writes: “I have great fear of my secrets which your eyes know but mine do not” (multum timeo occulta mea, quae norunt oculi tui, mei autem non).11
Augustine’s search for God is a struggle to remember God, and on the strength of the memory to love God with his whole heart: “Late have I loved you, beauty so old and so new” (Sero te amavi, pulchritudo tam antiqua et tam nova).12 Augustine searches the caverns of memory for traces of the God who cannot be found among the things of nature. Memory does not contain an image of God. This presents Augustine with a decidedly Platonic problem: How can he look for God if God is not remembered? How can we look for that which we have never known? Augustine’s answer is un-Platonic: to seek God is to not seek that which we once had and have since lost. It is rather to be directed toward an end that makes out present state of existence intolerable. To seek God is to seek a happy life (vita beata). The search for God is not guided by the memory of an objective vision, but by a present distress and concern. The happy life is not a remembered content. Rather the happy life is formally indicated in the relational-sense of distress over one’s life.13 We see a recurring pattern in the phenomenology of the young Heidegger: relational and enactment senses assume primacy over content-sense; language becomes necessarily indirect.14 Theodore Kisiel puts it well: “How the happy life in the search for it is alive in us will expose what is thereby intended. And so Augustine does not get around to defining the vita beata contentwise, as he had originally intended. Instead, the question abruptly changes and he confronts the problem of how he can come to the happy life.”15 Because the happy life is formally indicated, indirectly intended, it can be present to the soul in its absence, in sadness.16 As primarily a relational-sense, the happy life is “only genuinely there in a context of enactment. It must be existentially manifest . . . in a determinate articulated factical historical context of enactment.”17
The significance of this point for the phenomenology of religion is profound: God is never available for detached theoretical inspection. God is only present in absence. The divine shows itself by not showing itself. We desire beatitude because we never had it. To substitute an objective content, a highest being, or a highest good for the desire for God is to destroy the primary referent of religious language. God does not name a thing but a possibility for being, the directedness of a particular form of life.
According to Heidegger the substitution of an ontic intention, an object, for a purely relational intention is precisely what happens when the disclosures of historicity in Augustine are subsumed into neo-Platonic metaphysics. The restlessness of human existence resolves itself in the tranquillitas of the visio beatifica, the timeless vision of God. Augustine writes “What else is it to live happily and blessedly but to possess an eternal object through knowing it?”18 The happy life becomes joy in the truth, the truth becomes the highest good (summumbonum) transferred to a realm beyond history. Augustine holds that the highest good is enjoyed (frui) never used (uti); in this way it is distinguished as higher than all earthly goods. An earthly good is a means to happiness. The highest good is never a means, it is always the end. In Heidegger’s reading this argument reduces the primal Christian relational-sense of anxious expectation to the neo-Platonic relational-sense of intuitive possession. Enjoyment of that which does not change, a fundamentally aesthetic and non-temporal comportment, becomes the basic orientation of life. To live a holy life, one must have an order of preferences among goods: things to be used are not to be enjoyed for their own sake, things to be enjoyed are not to be used. Heidegger calls this process “neo-Platonic axiologization,” the imposition of a hierarchy of values onto the factic, a gradation of goods ascending to the summum bonum.19 According to Heidegger, that which is experienced in delight is not initially hierarchically ordered. Just as theorizing reifies understanding into knowledge of essences, so axiologization reifies the acts of the will.
The axiologization of the factic is the volitional / value side of onto-theology. As the temporal meaning of being is eclipsed when beings are causally traced back to an infinite ground, the historicity of values disclosed in average everydayness is forgotten when all goods are traced back to a highest good.20 The historicity of being a self, so vividly enacted in the Confessions, is lost; facticity is resolved into eternal truth: “Thus was the turn to metaphysics brought about: the eternal truths are the ideas in the absolute consciousness of God. A parallel analysis is applied to the experience of will. Knowledge takes on the character of the essence of substance. The human soul is changeable, yet it extends to an unchangeable ground, the inner experience of the existence of God.”21 For Heidegger, this is the decisive interjection of Greek metaphysics into Augustine’s thinking, which blossoms into Scholasticism, the substitution of contemplatio for the expectatio of Christian faith.22 Augustine replaces the temporalizing being-toward-an-absent-God with the aesthetic enjoyment of an eternal principle and thus initiates both the forgetfulness of history in the Middle Ages and the reign of theory in Western philosophy.
Heidegger does not take up the God-relation in Augustine’s understanding of selfhood, nor does he comment on its intimate connection to the experience of cura and molestia. Elsewhere Heidegger insists on the necessity for theological brackets in phenomenology: the question of God cannot be decided phenomenologically because it is not a factical question. Theology draws thinking way from the factic.23 Augustine would passionately disagree: “Because I am not full of you [God], I am a burden to myself” (emphasis mine – quoniam tui plenus non sum, oneri mihi sum).24 In other words, I know I am a burden to myself only because I know that I am not full of you. If I did not know you, God, I could not know the depths of the burden of life. Existence becomes an issue for Augustine only in the horizon of his longing for God. The thought of God in Augustine does not cover Dasein over, on the contrary, it lights it up from within. Contrast Augustine’s hermeneutics of the self with the untroubled self-reflection practised by Socrates: the end of the reflective life for Socrates is not trouble, hardship, and self-problematization, but peace, equanimity, and self-transparency.
Notwithstanding the brilliance of his interpretation of Augustine, Heidegger’s critique of onto-theology never touches the heart of the medieval notion of God. It works best when dealing with proofs for the existence of God, God as efficient cause, first and highest being etc. Yet this was not the core of Scholastic theology, certainly not the core of Augustine’s theology. The essence of Augustine’s theology is the notion of simplicitas Dei. God admits no composition. Yet every thinkable being is a composite of act-potency, essence-existence, matter-form. This does not relegate God to a dimension of religious experience of no concern to metaphysics.25 God is the primum analogatum, affirmed to exist, but never conceptualized or grasped as a content. We can know that God is, we cannot know what God is.26 God is infinite meaning, the fullness of esse. Limitless esse offers theory no content. The doctrine of divine simplicity acts as a speculative speed bump in Scholasticism, a crucial reminder that at a decisive point every proof fails to articulate the being of God, and therefore, the meaning of being itself. Ipsum esse cannot be characterized as a being. In the unknowing that surrounds it like a blinding light, ipusm esse is incalculable, uncontrollable, and indefinable. In a mystical-Scholastic philosophical theology like Eckhart’s, the simplicity of God and the relational-sense of Augustine’s search for the vita beata come together: an absolutely simple being cannot be thematized and defined, but it can disclose itself relationally in the how of mystical discipleship, detachment (Abgeschiedenheit). “God” does not name a content, but a life tendency, a possibility for being-in-the-world in a different way. Augustine’s “axiologization” is his effort to work out the details of how the God-relation is to be enacted: we only “have” God in turning away from transitory pleasure and embracing the pain of a life without God. The move is entirely practical because the God relation has no theoretical sense.
Religiousness is enacted in a variety of proximate content-senses: in the life of faith in a church community, in a life devoted to service, to meditation, or even to science. As a relational-sense, the proximate content-sense of religiousness can vary. It may not even know itself as religious. What is characteristic of all religious enactments is unrestrictedness.27 Religiousness in its various modes relates itself to its objectives without limit. Faith is trusting to the end. Altruism that breaks through to the religious serves the other unconditionally. A life of religious silence and meditation places no limit on the value of its goal, sunyata, the uniomystica. The will to know does not stop short of an exhaustive explanation, absolute intelligibility, where no further questions remain. A factical philosophical theology would phenomenologically show how these modes of religiousness indicate our primal being-before-God, that is, our being-toward-ultimate-accountability. This last expression should not be interpreted moralistically. That I am called to give an account of myself does not mean I can only be justified by performing certain actions. It means, rather, that my justification will involve the whole of my temporal existence. All times will be recapitulated in the account. No unguarded moment will be left out. The moralistic interpretation of ultimate accountability, for example, the apocalyptic consciousness of the Middle Ages, is a derivative form of what I am talking about here. We should understand the countless depictions of the Day of Judgment over the portals of Gothic cathedrals as mythological indications of being-toward-ultimate-accountability. The medieval peasant may have believed that he had to earn salvation by his good actions. The belief is materially false, for grace cannot be earned, but formally true: we will indeed be called to give an account.
The being that we are is gripped by a concern for itself before God. God is future. God comes to meet us. The promise of this future is that we will be given back to ourselves – we will be whole for the first time -- for we will give account of what we were. Augustine finds himself on the way to God, gripped by an anticipation of accountability. He finds that God is that toward which he has been moving all along, and in finding that, he finds himself for the first time. "

Notes

1 Martin Heidegger, “Augustinus und der Neuplatonismus,” ed. Claudius Strube, in Gesamtausgabe, vol. 60: Phänomenologie des religiösen Lebens (Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1995), 157-299. Hereafter GA60.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:58 pm

Although not yet prepared to draw any conclusive continua as of yet, it does contain elements which hold it together within the forum as a whole.

Thanks
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby MagsJ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:09 pm

Meno_ wrote:
MagsJ wrote:I’m not good at sharpening knives, plus they’re dangerous to play with.. I just buy a new knife, instead.

They are good quality knives and last long, but I do intend to master the knife-sharpening machine, very soon.

The sooner the better MagsJ

Oh?

Making a pretty-penny is never a bad thing.. everyone prefers the Pound, over all else.

All make do with what they have to, but not necessarily want they want.


You can write the rest of your script by yourself, Incapable!
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:44 pm

The trend is toward Occanm's Razor, rather then up toward past Enlightenment toward the postmodern, im congruence with the opposite intended effect I meant to imply



So can mot blame You , and i meant by 'the sooner the better' to realize I am at a loss as well, as to why all philosophy appears to suffer this dirge of a death knoll to humanism and the re-emergance of Christian values.

I would not like anyone including the world, to give up faith because of giving up on hope and charity.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:21 pm

Meno_, this will be preliminary, in response to the strawman of defining ontology as applying only to that which does not come to be or change.

For me, I have a more broad view of ontology as distinct from epistemology or justification, and synonymous with metaphysical grounding.

Justification (oughts for belief) cannot take the place of ontology (grounding in reality — down to the fleeting), and ontology cannot take the place of justification when it comes to the “justified true belief” litmus of knowledge.

This applies to all things/objects whether or not you can “see” them.

Just a start.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:54 am

I’m just going to put it like this & if I have more time after my homework this weekend I will see if I missed anything.

We are made in God’s image, which means we have the capacity (if not interrupted) to cultivate our character/being (thinking) by choosing (doing) toward ends which treat the other as self, and vice versa (end).

This involves both avoiding harming the other/self, and seeking their/our growth. No growth without pain. That’s what is good about a forest fire promoting seed growth… an analogy Jesus uses.

The capacity is like the seed, blueprint, or program, but it requires the will to initiate/run (cultivate/build) it. We never will until we see the need…that restlessness.

Jesus’ vine/branch analogy is good, because it’s like a fractal. The branches are patterned after the vine and cannot grow apart from it. The vine is very much alive. We will never be the source of the vine, but we can choose to be grafted in or out. Since the vine is spiritual life, choosing to be grafted out (love cannot be forced) causes a kind of death. We can’t graft ourselves in because love isn’t earned—that’s what the cross demonstrated, and it’s why we extend the same mercy to others/self. The more we choose to be a branch of that vine, the more we resemble it, and it grows.

The less we choose vine-likeness, the more we wither. & it eventually shows, and we may never rid ourselves of its effects. But his love never changes.

The more we know this, the more we are capable of choosing otherwise (greater heights allow greater falls), the more we will be expected not to, and to choose the vine. But we will never be God. No matter how great a height we fall from, his love remains unmoved. He disciplines those he loves. His word will not return to him void. He will deal with the wolf shepherds who harm sheep—love does not leave you wallowing in mud.

Think of all the vices of the people throughout biblical history. They all had to come through the fire to get back to the original image. When we first became conscious (any being who can choose the Golden Rule) is when we became made in his image.

I like the Augustine quote, “Our heart is restless until it rests in You.” To rest is to be grafted in to the vine by his love. Rooted. Home.

Thanks for the reminder.

I wish I could (pray he would) burn away vestigial neural connections, but we all have our thorns.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby MagsJ » Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:56 am

Meno_ wrote:The trend is toward Occanm's Razor, rather then up toward past Enlightenment toward the postmodern, im congruence with the opposite intended effect I meant to imply



So can mot blame You , and i meant by 'the sooner the better' to realize I am at a loss as well, as to why all philosophy appears to suffer this dirge of a death knoll to humanism and the re-emergance of Christian values.

I would not like anyone including the world, to give up faith because of giving up on hope and charity.

Do play on.. I’m at no loss, but I am all ears.

While the majority stress and struggle, the minority enjoy the spoils of All.. keep stressing, won’t ya!
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:43 am

The minority 1% pulling their heads outta their butts would be like a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

But. All (logical) things are possible when God is settling unsettled accounts.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:50 am

Relevant if you equate restlessness & anfechtungen…

Kierkegaard & Luther…

One such issue concerned the question of justification, and the central Lutheran view that this comes through unmerited grace as forgiveness rather than through works. While expressing sympathy with Luther’s central claim, Kierkegaard was fearful that in his contemporary world, it had become an excuse for an ethical and spiritual indolence, so that people now “applied grace in such a way that they freed themselves from works” (Kierkegaard 1851 [1990a: 17]). Relatedly, Kierkegaard acknowledged and respected the spiritual seriousness of the anxieties (Anfechtungen) and sense of sin which had led Luther himself to adopt this position (see Podmore 2006 and 2013); but this was a seriousness which Kierkegaard’s contemporaries had lost, so that for them the turn to grace becomes a superficial optimism rather than a renewal of hope in the face of anxiety and despair. Moreover, like Luther, Kierkegaard closely connected our relation to God in faith with our relation to the neighbour, so that it is through the former that the latter as works of love are made possible.[28] In this way, Kierkegaard could claim to be correcting an exaggeration of Luther’s position, which tried to do away with works altogether—much as Luther himself had rejected this exaggeration in his Treatise on Good Works. In re-affirming the importance of works, Kierkegaard gave a greater role to the imitatio Christi tradition, again arguing that while Luther had been rightly critical of this idea in his own context as feeding works righteousness and a kind of pseudo-piety, it nonetheless needs reviving in Kierkegaard’s context, to provide a challenge to the complacent self-conception of his contemporaries by raising Christ up as an ideal, and to re-focus our attention on him as a radical figure (Kierkegaard 1876 [1990: 192–209]).


Full: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/luther-influence/

P.s. Luther didn’t want a split between denominations, he loved the Church, he just had the nuts to think in public ;) Eventually the Church did come around on a lot of the issues brought up in the 95 Theses. What’s important is the denominations are united on the essentials. Unity in diversity.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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Re: Double edged sword on following the cross ( me)

Postby Meno_ » Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:02 pm

On passing Siamese temple thiughts:



The Buddha self imposed self abjecatiin if the right word more akin to St. Augustine confessive example as Christ's atoning value transcendence because human nature's instinctive replenishing of what the can see.

Before the Word
Can become understanding.

No short Cut to this process except those who are willing to nihilize everything by turning
Upside down by the works of love
Through fate.

The re-formed are no exception.

Kierkegaard's tears before knowing hi(s)m self.

The capital of transferred soul's accumulated power contrarily reduces all existence toward the imitation of God's acrimony. ( & forces renewal in a necessary response>redemption ).

It should be welcomed with gratitude and grace.
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Re: Double edged sword

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:26 pm

Unearnable love covers over a multitude of sins & casts out fear.

How sad to forget. To lose focus. To look elsewhere.

How happy when he draws us back.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

The thoughts/actions in your head should be both eternal and external. If they can’t be both, boot them. Not everyone is willing to part with the internal/external that is not in line with the eternal. That is why we don’t have heaven on earth.

Science: https://youtu.be/90sWAKwZHHE

Wisdom after forgetting, and rediscovering the written record of the forgotten: The only one you’re allowed to plagiarize is the self you no longer are.

Isn’t it “funny” how the religious rulers of Jesus‘ day wanted him crucified, and the secular rulers of our day want to turn him into a mere (at most) philosopher?
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